Dreamhack Austin For us, it was really awesome seeing two main things at this event. It was pretty clear that the foreign players have leveled up and have performed much stronger this time around compared to before, and due to the map diversity push, even mirror matchups showed really amazing diversity in terms of units being used or different timings being utilized even within the same strategies being used.
I was able to make it to the event as well, and being able to experience it with the live Texas audience was awesome!
Map Diversity Speaking of map diversity in recent tournaments, we wanted to discuss our current thoughts for the next season map pool so that we can get ahead of it early in terms of getting the community involved in the decision making process.
There is a TL map contest going on right now that focuses around different categories of maps. What this means is there could be a first place map in the macro category, new maps category, rush map category, and so on. We are also trying to see if Korean tournament organizers have new maps planned in order to coordinate accordingly if the timeline allows for us to.
We’re hoping to use the 4 new maps next season that will go in from these two sources. Out of the remaining 3 slots, we’re hoping to keep 1 of the new maps that went in to the current season. That leaves us with 2 open slots to be able to try out a couple old maps that are currently being used in Proleague. Our current thought here is to use King Sejong Station due to how different and balanced the map appears to be, and then choose one map between Overgrowth and Frost since both maps are of a similar type.
Even though the next season is a couple months away, we just wanted to get discussions going on this topic as soon as possible, so that we can make the best decision.
Current State of Protoss We’ve been getting feedback regarding Protoss being weak for a while now, but the feedback has been different at the pro level. Just analyzing the quality of matches on both the WCS side and the KR side, Protoss actually looks to be in a clearly strong state. Also, when we look at the tournament results, out of the two major tournaments that happened so far in KR this year, Protoss won once and Protoss got 2nd place once. Out of the four major WCS events that happened this year Protoss won twice, and got second place once.
After heavy analysis on such opposing feedback of many players within our community saying Protoss is OP vs. many players saying Protoss is UP, we believe that our current direction with the slight Immortal nerf and slight Colossus buff is good. The Immortal change should help at the pro level, and the Colossus may help players who struggle with microing Disruptors, since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
It's good they know that Protoss isn't UP. Anyone who thinks so are fools, or just don't know the best way to play.
I see so many foreign Protosses that still don't open up phoenix. Yes, it sucks you have to do it boohoo, but that's how to best utilize your race and realize their not UP at all.
On May 14 2016 04:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice to see them rotate out almost all the maps. I hope they do this every season.
when the maps are good I don't mind playing on them multiple seasons
same, but since this is not the case here...
I also agree that while P performs strongly at the pro level, the race is definitely not easy to play in LotV. The immortal nerf + slight colo buff will be good. A tempest supply increase is definitely needed though.
On May 14 2016 04:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice to see them rotate out almost all the maps. I hope they do this every season.
when the maps are good I don't mind playing on them multiple seasons
If the maps are good they can always bring them back later like they are doing for KSS and Overgrowth/Frost. To my mind stagnant map pools can be a problem even if the maps aren't bad.
On May 14 2016 04:27 Salteador Neo wrote: Blizz finally talking about new maps is hype.
Also race %s prove that protoss is indeed UP in Masters/GM (outside the pro level).
Edit: Ok maybe UP is not the right way to put it, maybe it's just harder to play than the other two races.
I wouldn't say UP. I actually don't understand why this is the case but P is indeed "underplayed" (don't know if that's a proper word) in higher leagues. As for me I don't think LotV made P a lot harder, I still feel that playing Z requires a bit more game sense and that playing T is slightly more demanding on mechanics. But maybe that's because I've been playing P for years now while I don't know the other races very well and would probably get my ass kicked in platinum playing T or Z.
Protoss have less than 45% winrate in matchup and below 50% in other for over half a year, nothing happens. Zest wins and suddenly nerfs everywhere. Thanks. In the meantime non-killable Liberators at some maps are still a thing x]
On May 14 2016 04:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice to see them rotate out almost all the maps. I hope they do this every season.
when the maps are good I don't mind playing on them multiple seasons
If the maps are good they can always bring them back later like they are doing for KSS and Overgrowth/Frost. To my mind stagnant map pools can be a problem even if the maps aren't bad.
I actually liked blizzards approach that they always switched out half the mappool every season. A single season seems to be to little for a good map, many people were upset when they removed foxtrot labs/echo after one season. Switching out half the pool is enough imo to keep the mappool from becoming stale.
o_O Did anyone in the blizzard balance team actually see the results of the GSL? P.s. Nerf Adept shade cooldown or there HP and for the love of god Nerf noskillarators so there is no anti air splash too much shift clicking and a moving tbh
On May 14 2016 04:20 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Nice to see them rotate out almost all the maps. I hope they do this every season.
when the maps are good I don't mind playing on them multiple seasons
If the maps are good they can always bring them back later like they are doing for KSS and Overgrowth/Frost. To my mind stagnant map pools can be a problem even if the maps aren't bad.
I actually liked blizzards approach that they always switched out half the mappool every season. A single season seems to be to little for a good map, many people were upset when they removed foxtrot labs/echo after one season. Switching out half the pool is enough imo to keep the mappool from becoming stale.
That's a fair point. Good maps can probably stand two consecutive seasons in the map pool. Three seasons might be fine depending on how long the seasons are.
Though if you go for swapping out all maps that either a) have been there two consecutive seasons in a row b) have only been there for one season but have been bad/mediocre, you probably end up swapping out 4-5 maps each rotation anyhow.
On May 14 2016 04:13 blade55555 wrote: It's good they know that Protoss isn't UP. Anyone who thinks so are fools, or just don't know the best way to play.
I see so many foreign Protosses that still don't open up phoenix. Yes, it sucks you have to do it boohoo, but that's how to best utilize your race and realize their not UP at all.
Yup, nothing more be said on it, if you aren't opening Phoenix, well then why aren't you opening Phoenix?
David been really moving things in a better direction with all of these updates, I feel like if he had been this way since WOL we'd be sitting on a different game, but hey, I'm still giving props.
Really hoping to see a complete Swarm Host revamp, the cost really isn't the issue nor is the supply, the issue is that it's a dead weight unit in an even faster paced game, the design is just bad, sorry David, but I firmly believe the Host in it's current form is pretty much polishing a useless piece of junk. Zerg still struggles against mass air comps, particularly Protoss air armies, maybe tune the Swarm Host to discourage Tempest and Carrier/Void Ray massing? Not like that is particularly a pressing balance issue considering it's on the person to scout a mass turtle air comp and pop a Nydus or a Doom Drop before the Protoss hit's 200/200 so I don't know.
Just maybe tune the Swarm Host to actually have an identity? Make it actually contribute to the Swarm strategically, why the hell would I build Hosts to siege when I can have Lurkers which are infinitely more useful and morph from a general combat unit or tech to Brood Lords so I can also have Vipers? There is no real strategic reason to build them at this point outside of carefully crafted gimmick builds.
On a lighter thought, having King Sejong Station is literally making me anxious with excitement, Overgrowth as well? OH man, it shouldn't even be a question, put Frost in, those 3 maps are in my first five maps when someone brings up best designed and most balanced maps ever, totally stoked.
On May 14 2016 04:13 blade55555 wrote: It's good they know that Protoss isn't UP. Anyone who thinks so are fools, or just don't know the best way to play.
I see so many foreign Protosses that still don't open up phoenix. Yes, it sucks you have to do it boohoo, but that's how to best utilize your race and realize their not UP at all.
Maybe it's not fun to do that every single game? I see everyone complaining about stagnant map pools. In my opinion a much bigger problem for Starcraft is stagnant gameplay. Having to do the exact same opener every game would qualify as that.
Not sure why people have such an issue with Tempests. They're obviously strong but they need to be so that toss has some way to deal with the major lategame threats of BL/Liberator range
On May 14 2016 05:36 MLuneth wrote: Not sure why people have such an issue with Tempests. They're obviously strong but they need to be so that toss has some way to deal with the major lategame threats of BL/Liberator range in the lategame
Exactly, Tempest are good against some high tech units of other races. Their main weaknesses are that they are slow and have less DPS than a stimmed marine against most things. So when they are made, the opponent should just outmaneuver them with low tier, fast units like small MMM attacks or cracklings. These strategies have been effective every time I've seen them used. It's like a circle: once the big fat units cease to work, you go back to the cheap ones, which should be completely upgraded by then, and the protoss has to reassess.
On May 14 2016 05:36 MLuneth wrote: Not sure why people have such an issue with Tempests. They're obviously strong but they need to be so that toss has some way to deal with the major lategame threats of BL/Liberator range in the lategame
Protoss air army>>>terran/zerg air army. But I agree that the other races air armies should get nerfed too so that the game becomes more ground-centric
On May 14 2016 05:36 MLuneth wrote: Not sure why people have such an issue with Tempests. They're obviously strong but they need to be so that toss has some way to deal with the major lategame threats of BL/Liberator range in the lategame
Protoss air army>>>terran/zerg air army. But I agree that the other races air armies should get nerfed too so that the game becomes more ground-centric
" the other races air armies should get nerfed too so that the game becomes more ground-centric"
I don't agree with you alot on here but this is the damn truth, ground centric styles are always going to be more interesting to watch and play against.
On May 14 2016 04:59 NomaKasd wrote: o_O Did anyone in the blizzard balance team actually see the results of the GSL? P.s. Nerf Adept shade cooldown or there HP and for the love of god Nerf noskillarators so there is no anti air splash too much shift clicking and a moving tbh
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
Blizz has proven several times they do this because one player is good with his race. Mostly Terran got hit with the nerf hammer by that logic. Think about Thorzain and his use of Thors against Protoss. This was after ONE tournament and Im sure there are other examples too.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
take it from a slow, stupid and old man. Zerg is by far the easiest of the 3 races. my expansion harassment consists of "throw some zerglings at it and hope for the best"
Deciding whether a race needs to be nerfed or buffed by the number of championship is misleading and dangerous. It seems that it only takes one champion for David Kim to give out the sentence for a race. Following his logic in the update, I wonder, whether a champion has to be a random player, therefore no race will be nerfed. Or, the player will be banned as a means of maintaining balance? In Starcraft, we didn't see Blizzard doing anything to the races played by Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, sAviOr and Jaedong, considering how many championships these players won and how dominating they were. Also, in the first two years of WoL, compared to multiple championships won by Terran and Zerg players, MC won the only two GSL championships as a Protoss player, where was the balance correction? Why didn't David Kim correct Protoss in 2014 and 2015 since Protoss players won multiple major championships? I'm not complaining about "unfair" treatment for Protoss. I'm merely pointing out how ridiculously absurd to judge the current state of a race by counting how many championships or runner-ups the players of this race win. Maybe the Immortal nerf and Colossus buff end up being just fine. Nevertheless, following such logic can lead to something that actually downgrades the player factors in the future.
On May 14 2016 08:38 Alienship wrote: Deciding whether a race needs to be nerfed or buffed by the number of championship is misleading and dangerous. It seems that it only takes one champion for David Kim to give out the sentence for a race. Following his logic in the update, I wonder, whether a champion has to be a random player, therefore no race will be nerfed. Or, the player will be banned as a means of maintaining balance? In Starcraft, we didn't see Blizzard doing anything to the races played by Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, sAviOr and Jaedong, considering how many championships these players won and how dominating they were. Also, in the first two years of WoL, compared to multiple championships won by Terran and Zerg players, MC won the only two GSL championships as a Protoss player, where was the balance correction? Why didn't David Kim correct Protoss in 2014 and 2015 since Protoss players won multiple major championships? I'm not complaining about "unfair" treatment for Protoss. I'm merely pointing out how ridiculously absurd to judge the current state of a race by counting how many championships or runner-ups the players of this race win. Maybe the Immortal nerf and Colossus buff end up being just fine. Nevertheless, following such logic can lead to something that actually downgrades the player factors in the future.
If one player would perform good and the rest of the race struggles that of course doesn't mean that the race is to strong but protoss is nowhere near struggling in korea. They had good representation in both starleagues which is imo the most important source to judge balance.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
"the Colossus may help players who struggle with microing Disruptors, since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now."
who gives a fuck about what is "outside of the pro level"? WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?!
On May 14 2016 08:55 necrosexy wrote: "the Colossus may help players who struggle with microing Disruptors, since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now."
who gives a fuck about what is "outside of the pro level"? WHAT ARE THEY THINKING?!
Ever thought about what would happen if all Protoss below Masters quit the game, viewership dropped by 25-33%, sponsorship deals dropped, and pros lost their salaries/jobs?
Game should be balanced for all skill levels. Protoss is not only the least represented race, it also struggles in leagues higher then Gold and it has been like that for months. Small buff like this might be a step in good direction, even if it is not the best change, because the Colossus is a badly designed unit.
really hope blizz keeps this level of map rotation as a standard, or even more. the ideal would be that all 7 maps are replaced with entirely new ones every season.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If I can casually play at a mid masters level then I promise that you don't need to practice hard to maintain platinum leage.
Quite frankly your whole post is bullshit, learn to play and stop blaming the game, they are already buffing the easier to use late game unit. Pro opinions are the only ones that matter because everyone else can learn to play or leave and play an easy game.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
if you practice like a korean pro and are still gold/platinum league you're doing something wrong. Also balance doesn't matter at low level because players can always improve their own play. even when it's true that one race is harder to play than the other races (which I don't think) low level players won't even notice it because they win 50% of the time anyways. I think the problem many low level players have is just that they want to play like the pros and then get frustrated when they can't make the things work they see in pro level games.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If I can casually play at a mid masters level then I promise that you don't need to practice hard to maintain platinum leage.
Quite frankly your whole post is bullshit, learn to play and stop blaming the game, they are already buffing the easier to use late game unit. Pro opinions are the only ones that matter because everyone else can learn to play or leave and play an easy game.
No.
@Charoisaur The "practicing like a korean pro" was just an example and an exaggeration.
Game should be designed for casuals, and balanced for pro gamers. That's the only way you'll get an interesting game people have fun to play, with a competitive pro scene.
By the way DK : - disruptor still in the game, still plagueging PvP - no talk of the tankivac - no talk of mech viability - adept shade still allows no counterplay - liberator AG still overwhelming while other sector of terran play suck - still nothing about the reaper - still nothing about the ravager - still nothing about the parasitic bomb - etc...
I feel like the people who asked for the game to be fixed just left, because they saw blizzard wouldn't do any real design change. That's kinda sad.
On May 14 2016 09:48 Nazara wrote: viewership dropped by 25-33%, sponsorship deals dropped, and pros lost their salaries/jobs?
I'd like to know where those numbers come from but i suppose they're proving my point if they're true
On May 14 2016 13:03 JackONeill wrote: Game should be designed for casuals, and balanced for pro gamers. That's the only way you'll get an interesting game people have fun to play, with a competitive pro scene.
By the way DK : - disruptor still in the game, still plagueging PvP - no talk of the tankivac - no talk of mech viability - adept shade still allows no counterplay - liberator AG still overwhelming while other sector of terran play suck - still nothing about the reaper - still nothing about the ravager - still nothing about the parasitic bomb - etc...
I feel like the people who asked for the game to be fixed just left, because they saw blizzard wouldn't do any real design change. That's kinda sad.
On May 14 2016 13:03 JackONeill wrote: Game should be designed for casuals, and balanced for pro gamers. That's the only way you'll get an interesting game people have fun to play, with a competitive pro scene.
casuals need to accept the fact that 1 race will lead to a higher ladder standing and there is nothing Blizzard can do about it.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
On May 14 2016 08:51 Tyrhanius wrote: We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Which is utter nonsense. I can point left and right to examples of flourishing e-sports, that are also perfectly accessible to your average human being. In fact, if you go by viewer numbers you might even say those things are connected. Skill floor and skill ceiling are 2 different concepts, and you only want one of those to be high.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
On May 14 2016 04:13 blade55555 wrote: It's good they know that Protoss isn't UP. Anyone who thinks so are fools, or just don't know the best way to play.
I see so many foreign Protosses that still don't open up phoenix. Yes, it sucks you have to do it boohoo, but that's how to best utilize your race and realize their not UP at all.
did toss players hate opening corsair in BW? I thought that was accepted.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
THANK YOU!
And to the people that tell me l2p or get over it. Stop it. You can spew these phrases on Bnet Forums where they belong. I never asked for any buffs neither was I whining about a certain Imbalance or the race I play. The Gold/Plat thing was just an example, I wasn´t speaking for myself. Usually Im ok with the league or situation Im in.
The only real thing I would be angry about is the fact that Terran still has to play the same strategy for 6 years most of the time. It´s sad that terran lost one of their two unique playstyles just because the other is so dominant. It´s like a signature Weapon from a shooter got cut.
EDIT: also thanks to breaker1328. Good to see that other people also see a potential problem.
On May 14 2016 08:38 Alienship wrote: Deciding whether a race needs to be nerfed or buffed by the number of championship is misleading and dangerous. It seems that it only takes one champion for David Kim to give out the sentence for a race. Following his logic in the update, I wonder, whether a champion has to be a random player, therefore no race will be nerfed. Or, the player will be banned as a means of maintaining balance? In Starcraft, we didn't see Blizzard doing anything to the races played by Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, sAviOr and Jaedong, considering how many championships these players won and how dominating they were. Also, in the first two years of WoL, compared to multiple championships won by Terran and Zerg players, MC won the only two GSL championships as a Protoss player, where was the balance correction? Why didn't David Kim correct Protoss in 2014 and 2015 since Protoss players won multiple major championships? I'm not complaining about "unfair" treatment for Protoss. I'm merely pointing out how ridiculously absurd to judge the current state of a race by counting how many championships or runner-ups the players of this race win. Maybe the Immortal nerf and Colossus buff end up being just fine. Nevertheless, following such logic can lead to something that actually downgrades the player factors in the future.
It's not just the championships though, these are the decent Korean winrates and Protoss is doing really well; www.playxp.com.
Even if Protoss wasn't doing so well, the immortal is clearly a unit with issues, in PvZ there is not a single groundunit except maybe lings that really counter immortals. If Protoss end up being too weak, they can always buff another unit.
Liberators and Ultras probably have the same problem btw.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere.
We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play.
Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport."
Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
i love this statement, its such a kick in the nuts to people who play Protoss !!!
"The Immortal change should help at the pro level, and the Colossus may help players who struggle with microing Disruptors, since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now."
Of course you have to balance the game based on the pros. Anything else would absolutely result in dead game because e-sport wouldn't be a thing.
In lower leagues there will of course be things that feels unbalanced due to lower skill. I (diamond zerg) think it's a nightmare to play against a protoss who can handle phoenixes or a terran who has the skill to drop everywhere all the time. I will lose like a real noob. That doesn't mean it's imbalanced. It just beats my bad habit of using the "all army" hotkey.
The game isn't fun in lower leagues? What bullshit is that? I've been in all leagues up to diamond and it's fun in all of them if you ask me. You will face bullshit everywhere but it's your job to adapt and learn to counter it no matter what race you play. That's the fun of the game imo. There is a counter.
Another thing that makes the game more fun in lower leagues is that you can use different compositions, builds and strats than in the pro leagues because of the inexperience of your opponent to counter strange strategies. I find that mech definitely is a thing in lower leagues. I lose to it a lot.
The other day I faced a protoss with the name ZergIMBA. Well, if I win he will think his name is correct. He didn't try to harass once and only built stalkers/immortals. My zergling swarm with a few hydras surrounded his army and crushed it in seconds. IMBA? No, he should work on his knowledge of the game and compositions.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere.
We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play.
Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport."
Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
You're talking with extremes. Noone said to balance it around gold leaguers, what we're saying is that if you completely disregard gold leaguers when you balance around the pros, you're not gonna have many gold leaguers playing the game and the game will die.
Also take a look at other competitive games, like Dota. They are balanced around the highest level, but they are playable for 3k mmr players.
Protoss got more difficult to play whereas zerg got more easy to play with all the macro and unit changes of LOTV. So thats why we see more zerg and less Protoss, which not means that Protoss is UP its just underrepresented.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
1. System tries to force 50% winrate for all (this may be regarded as consequence, nevertheless it still works like that)
2. Because of condition 1, winrates only represent trend in what direction distribution is progressing or balance between matchups. The real balance is shown in league distribution. Protosses are already least played race in ranked ladder, and they are distributed way worse than other races. Especially compared to zerg, protosses are performing significantly worse.
3. Protoss doesn't seem to be a weak race, due to results in korea, just more difficult to play.
4. With balance tweaks like this shift of power from immortal to colossus, Blizzards seems to be making it easier for non-pros to play protoss. If, say, disruptor is still better than colossus if microed correctly, this doesn't have to affect the balance at pro level, in fact it may be actual nerf to protoss at pro level while being buff below pro level.
5. My personal opinion: Buffs shouldn't be made because one or very few players. If Blizzard nerfs protoss because of what for example Zest does, game won't be seeing much domination from one player, which could be welcome.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere.
We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play.
Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport."
Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
Of course you make sure the game is balanced in pro play. Zoom back out a bit, to the Colossus change that sparked this discussion. That's not likely to impact pro play, since Disruptors will still be better. It was a change targeted at players who want to be able to perform without having to master Disruptor play, to which this community's response was 'lol fuck noobs, why is Blizzard doing this?' Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere.
We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play.
Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport."
Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this.
How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere.
We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play.
Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport."
Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this.
How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre.
Why is this so hard to understand? +1 to you for having common sense.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere.
We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play.
Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport."
Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this.
How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre.
You should know accessibility has nothing to do with buying it, it's far and away a more important issue. Blaming that on the RTS genre as a whole seems wrong to me, because the genre is built of so many small pieces, that all contribute to the whole. That, to me, is a cop out. Other e-sports are succeeding like they are because they're very approachable games, if you can't follow that example then it just isn't going to work.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere.
We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play.
Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport."
Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this.
How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre.
You should know accessibility has nothing to do with buying it, it's far and away a more important issue. Blaming that on the RTS genre as a whole seems wrong to me, because the genre is built of so many small pieces, that all contribute to the whole. That, to me, is a cop out. Other e-sports are succeeding like they are because they're very approachable games, if you can't follow that example then it just isn't going to work.
Sure, accessibility is more than buying it but many of the most popular e-sports are free and that's a big deal. Also they are not as complexed.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
I have 100% winrates vs Protoss gold, must be because i play zerg. Or maybe because i'm master...
Gold games are totally irrelevant for talking about balance, only high level korean tournaments are.
Balance is about changing someone because it's too strong. You have to hit the best level to say : "this is too strong, there is no counter, that is OP".
Gold losing is just : X is better than Y, not X is favor by his race. These players just don't know how to counter the bo of your buddy, it's just lack of skill/knowledge/scouting, not imbalance.
We hear : SC2 is too hard for casuals, but if it weren't hard, there would be no esport.
Yes. And that is a mistake. They don´t necessarily need to listen to gold players but the biggest chunk of players are the everyday players. The ones that come home from work or whatever and just wanna have fun and play. The fact that I have to practice like a korean pro just to keep up in ladder when Im JUST GOLD OR PLATINUM is ridiculous. They focus on Esports TOO MUCH. If they don´t change this. Well have fun with a 400 playerbase.
Also: If they just want feedback from Korean Pro´s, then why they make these kind of Updates public? They could ask the Kpro´s secretly if they only want their feedback. Your argument is flawed. And when the Game is only balanced for Pro Players, sorry that´s not Balance for me anymore. Balance is for everyone.
Stop saying only Pro opinions matters. It already scared off huge amount of players.
Im not commenting the second bolded part, that is just bullshit.
If you are in gold/plat it isn't because of your race, it's because you have a gold/plat level of skill. Your winrate is gonna be roughly 50% regardless. If they give your race a buffet, your winrate will see a negligible increase. Unless your winrate is sub 45% for an extended period of time you aren't struggling any more then anyone else. This game is hard for everyone. You give it all you have and, unless you are masters or higher, your winrate will still be around 50%.
Like others have said, you aren't losing because of your race. There are too many things wrong with your play for balance to be why you lose. You lose because your opponent outplayed you. A buff will not make you win more, get over it.
Assuming players of equal skill, something that's balanced on Master's or higher level isn't necessarily balanced on Gold/Plat level. Alot of things are easier to excecute than they are to defend and this issue is more obvious in the lower leagues. You might say, anything lower than Master shouldn't matter for balance and the game should be designed around Korean pros. But like that, you're gonna alienate the largest group of people that play the game. When there will be few hundred people left playing this 'elite club' of a game and less than a thousand viewers for major tournaments, it will be too late to realise that's the wrong mindset.
It's like some people want this game to be a secret club only for Master League players or above.
Almost exactly this. The largest population of players in SC2 is in the meaty part of the bell curve, which is Gold league. If the game isn't fun for gold level players then how the hell are the korean pros going to make any money? No lower level players, means no one gives a shit about the game, means no one wants to watch or be a professional in it means dead game.
You saying it's not fun doesn't make it not fun, pretty presumptuous to speak for Gold league players everywhere.
We don't want it to be a secret Master league club, we want the game to be balanced at the top where it matters, not below the top where you can work on scouting, micro, and macro and 100% of the time improve your play.
Since when was any great game balanced around noobs? People in Gold league are hilariously terrible at the game, balancing the game for them would be like making all NBA hoops 6 feet tall because, "If regular players can't enjoy the game like the pro's then what the hell man dead sport."
Obviously the example isn't perfect, but you get the point.
Arguing about whether you had fun in gold league is rather missing the point. Accessibility for low level players is an all-important issue for any game, and is a problem for SC2 in particular, I'm surprised to see people not care about this.
How is that missing the point? It's supposed to be fun and if you are a fan of RTS-games it is and it's well worth the steep learning curve. Accessibility is fine. Just buy it. Of course the game is hard to master if you are completely new and a slight buff to the colossus might be a good way to "balance" the lower leagues but it doesn't make that much of an impact weather a new player decides to commit or not. That problem lies in the nature of the game and it's genre.
You should know accessibility has nothing to do with buying it, it's far and away a more important issue. Blaming that on the RTS genre as a whole seems wrong to me, because the genre is built of so many small pieces, that all contribute to the whole. That, to me, is a cop out. Other e-sports are succeeding like they are because they're very approachable games, if you can't follow that example then it just isn't going to work.
There is a reason MOBA games are taking over, because they are free, come with tutorials that gives you a pretty good rough idea of how to play the game, and are learning curve friendly to noobs.
That doesn't mean we should try to make RTS cater to pure casuals, there is an arcade, customs, and Archon mode for that. It is what it is and Starcraft is currently the hardest game to learn and play with the steepest curve, preserve it's integrity, does it really matter to anyone if Dreamhack has 24K viewers instead of 34K? Does that really affect your ability to practice the game and have fun?
I don't know what the debate is even about anymore.
since Protoss could in fact be performing weaker outside of the pro level right now.
At anything below the pro level Protoss is a fucking nightmare to play. I know Zerg buddies in Gold league with like 80% against Protoss. In fact I've off raced at my MMR and beaten people handily.
Also, Zest is really fucking good. We know this. You can't nerf a race because Zest is good.
People do not switch race that easily, most of them continue to play the same race whatever the meta is, even after the SH nerf when Toss had a stronger mid game and a totally op late game, I still continued to play as zerg like a large majority of zerg players because 1) Race switching is pretty difficult, 2) Even with such a state of the game, I lose because I have +100 flaws, not because it was unwinable. By the way, almost no one complained about this ridiculous state of game, it clearly shows that the protoss are by far the most vocal for balance whining during at least the last 2 later years. (remember when Rain said that T was like BL/infest during the Blink area? Even Nerchio is a sensible man in comparaison of this sort of comparaison) Anyway, it is always funny to see the same debate on balance at lower level considering that you can be diamond just with a good macro with any race so no need of buffing a big A+click unit that everybody who is not protoss hates. And, I am not sure that seeing some colossus deathball will be good for the viewership either.
Polt vs. Elazer shows how much bullshit TvZ matchup is right now.
I gonna repeat myself and say:
- Bio is way too strong and mobile at the same time - Zerg without mutalisks has basically no chance to come by that and therefore was given the ultralisk unit to be able to bring things back to terran at a certain point of time - liberators ....
The resume is the same as what I said 3 years ago in tl balance thread: A healthy state of TvZ should be exactly the other way round. Z should be the mobile race which has to deny terran expansions and delay Terrans endgame. T should be the race that goes for a strong endgame where it can overpower Z and meanwhiles is limited to mostly defending + occasional harrassment with medivacs and air units or a strong but SLOW push.
The tools both races were given by nature support this idea of metagame and not the current metagame. It can only be achieved when terran bio and its counterparts of the other races (e.g. banelings) are being toned down and mech is being strengthened. - remove marauder (potentially reintroduce as a T3 unit) - nerf baneling - remove tankivacs + buff tanks, buff BC etc. - switch lurkers with ravagers position and adapt both units to their new positions (lurker weaker + lair requirement + built from roach, ravager stronger + built from hydra) - further changes of T/Z and adapt P to the things done
result: make SC2 great again ;-)
short term fixes for current meta: - make ultralisks more expensive: +50 gas and maybe +50 minerals - go ahead with the liberator nerf
But I don't see how the intrinsic issues can be fixed through any minor changes like those. We gonna get used to liberator vs ultra meta in endgame, which is an absolute low quality level endgame imo and ppl rightfully go crazy on streamchats, lol.
On May 16 2016 01:59 LSN wrote: Polt vs. Elazer shows how much bullshit TvZ matchup is right now.
I gonna repeat myself and say:
- Bio is way too strong and mobile at the same time - Zerg without mutalisks has basically no chance to come by that and therefore was given the ultralisk unit to be able to bring things back to terran at a certain point of time - liberators ....
The resume is the same as what I said 3 years ago in tl balance thread: A healthy state of TvZ should be exactly the other way round. Z should be the mobile race which has to deny terran expansions and delay Terrans endgame. T should be the race that goes for a strong endgame where it can overpower Z and meanwhiles is limited to mostly defending + occasional harrassment with medivacs and air units or a strong but SLOW push.
The tools both races were given by nature support this idea of metagame and not the current metagame. It can only be achieved when terran bio and its counterparts of the other races (e.g. banelings) are being toned down and mech is being strengthened. - remove marauder (potentially reintroduce as a T3 unit) - nerf baneling - remove tankivacs + buff tanks, buff BC etc. - switch lurkers with ravagers position and adapt both units to their new positions (lurker weaker + lair requirement, ravager stronger) - further changes of T/Z and adapt P to the things done
result: make SC2 great again ;-)
short term fixes for current meta: - make ultralisks more expensive: +50 gas and maybe +50 minerals - go ahead with the liberator nerf
But I don't see how the intrinsic issues can be fixed through any minor changes like those. We gonna get used to liberator vs ultra meta in endgame, which is an absolute low quality level endgame imo and ppl rightfully go crazy on streamchats, lol.
Did we watch the same games? G1 Polt played Bio and got totally rekt.
G2 Polt played Bio and got totally rekt. Until Elazer decided to walk into 8 liberators. Terran has 1 unit that deal damage to Ultras, Liberators. That is really bad game design.
G3 Polt cheesed. Cant really call that mobile bio.
G4 Polt went for banshees. Not mobile bio.
Polt won none of the games due to mobile bio being to strong?
Last week Polt went for that OP bio aswell vs Firecake and got 0-3ed.
I am not talking about balance but about game design.
As it is right now it is the opposite as it should be. Zerg is basically defending only until it gets op units. Terran should be in this position instead as the tools both races were given would work better overall then.
It is great to see what kind of ppl I am talking with. Horizons like a smallish cup of tea and cannot imagine any other metagame than what was given to them. Add to that that they are so much focused on balance that they don't see potentials of improved design - also for balance.
You probably rather see 8ar ultra vs. liberator endgame meta for the next couple of years instead of rethinking basics.
On May 16 2016 02:19 LSN wrote: I am not talking about balance but about game design.
As it is right now it is the opposite as it should be. Zerg is basically defending only until it gets op units. Terran should be in this position instead as the tools both races were given would work better overall then.
okay then I take back what I said and agree with you. but imo it would be ideal if all races would be equally strong at every stage of the game so it's only the skill that gives players an advantage.
I am not saying I can name all the exact changes from the scratch.
But I know one thing for sure:
A metagame where terran slowly builds up a strong but slow army which has to over and over get decimated by zerg is the way to go for this matchup.
With three different races it is hardly possible to have all equally strong at all times. Of course zerg shouldn't be completely out of means in endgame vs. terran.
However a 200/200 terran endgame army (not 80% bio) should win against a 200/200 zerg army. The meta should evolve around zerg trading with terran with +20-30 supply constantly and the guy who trades better wins.
Marauders have already been nerfed by ~10% (no upgrades) to 20% (+3) against armored targets. After the next patch I bet we'll see them phased out in TvZ in favor of factory support (Thors and a 150/100 cyclone are way more efficient against hive tech)
On May 16 2016 02:34 Athenau wrote: Marauders have already been nerfed by ~10% (no upgrades) to 20% (+3) against armored targets. After the next patch I bet we'll see them phased out in TvZ in favor of factory support (Thors and a 150/100 cyclone are way more efficient against hive tech)
Yes I have suggested a nerf or the complete removal of marauder from early game some years ago.
I can explain what is the problem with the marauder:
The marauder is basically an armored marine which can only shoot ground. In combination with medivacs it is too strong and forces game designers to give opponents strong counterparts.
What SC2 needs is a slower progression. TvZ midgame is almost completely skipped at this point.
The interaction: rines better lings lurker better rines tanks better lurker ravager better tanks etc.
and not only the rush for ultralisks would make a great metagame and something ppl want to play and watch. Therefore Broodwar was better.
The marauder completely denies e.g. the use of units like lurkers in midgame and makes tanks more or less obsolete against alot of things. Mech in general for this reason is in the spot it is. Alot of potentially interesting unit interactions are being skipped due to what the marauder adds to bio and what counterparts game designers have given the other races.
I could continue to go into detail but I don't feel like writing more now and I think I have made myself clear enough. The changes I propose would make the game less volatile, less punishing and therefore more rewarding as well. Skill would matter more than lucky/unlucky timings and positioning. That is what SC2 also needs to get the status back it deserves in korea. Some wrote about why SC2 in korea has no clear dominators such as BW had them over periods of times. Skipped game-phase elements, fights that are too quickly decided and single-sided, volatility and luck of positionings and timings in general.
On May 16 2016 02:19 LSN wrote: I am not talking about balance but about game design.
As it is right now it is the opposite as it should be. Zerg is basically defending only until it gets op units. Terran should be in this position instead as the tools both races were given would work better overall then.
Terran doesn't have the strategical option to play defensive; that's why so many people have been asking for ages for mech to be made viable but according to Blizzards view, Terran has to play the same way every game. Bio and do major dmg mid game or loose.
On May 16 2016 02:19 LSN wrote: I am not talking about balance but about game design.
As it is right now it is the opposite as it should be. Zerg is basically defending only until it gets op units. Terran should be in this position instead as the tools both races were given would work better overall then.
Terran doesn't have the strategical option to play defensive; that's why so many people have been asking for ages for mech to be made viable but according to Blizzards view, Terran has to play the same way every game. Bio and do major dmg mid game or loose.
Exactly that is what my proposed changes aim for. Terran there is in the position Zerg should be in and the other way round. Terran has the tools for defensive play and zerg got the tools for offensive play. Yet Zerg has to play defensively and terran has to play offensively.
With such changes, terran however would not be limited to pure defensive play. It remains to have all the stuff like drops of marines, hellbats, mines, banshees, vikings, liberators.
Without marauders drops would not be as deadly as they are now when undefended for a short time. Zerg had to focus less on defending these drops consequentially and the metagame would be given the chance to develop in another way.
Right now: 1. Terran has to always harrass Z in order to delay Z op endgame 2. Z has the op endgame as it otherwise would barely get the chance to be offensive at all 3. Z can't be offensive because e.g. when an unscouted 2 dropship attack of terran is on its way to the zerg main while he prepares an attack in front of the doors of terran this drop with marines + marauders focuses down the whole base + one expansion that quickly that terran had enough time to fly the stuff back and defend the zerg attack at home afterwards. 4. repeat with 1.
My proposals are to break this cycle. Marauders play a major part in that because they provide survivability in combination with medivac heal. Zerg has to defend that with a superior force of units or massive splash potentially at multiple positions at the same time or subsequently with mechanics like unloading/uploading or Z just dies instantly. Therefore can't afford to be offensive at the same time.
Terran has superiority where it should not have it, in the low tier of units. It instead should have that in it's later tiers of units so that Z can be relatively nerfed there ... resulting in less punishing and more rewarding and creative gameplay overall.
Protoss in lower leagues would not struggle as much if they stopped believing they can micro as well as a pro gamer. If they make units, they won't have any problem.
Most of them keeps doing all-ins but doesn't know how to execute them properly, so they attack late, and lose to any terran/zerg player that is a bit defensive.
Just go safe 3 bases defensive macro with immortals/canons (CANONS!) into storm, and you'll win every PvT/PvZ. That means, you just have to scout... And stop fighting in liberation/lurker zones, for god's sake! Once you'll be able to do that, you'll have a much better macro and you'll be able to execute decent all-ins.
And before someone steps in and says: But the ravager.
Yes the ravager. Is the blizzard way to break the cycle. It is a bad solution because it is overpowered (overpowered in terms of design not in terms of current metagame where overpowered stands against overpowered). Instead of fixing the intrinsic problem itself they once again counter an overpowered situation with another overpowered unit (we haven't forgot the swarmhost approach, did we? Not even talking of infestors).
By means of logic this cannot achieve the results we would want.
Once again to wrap it up: The intrinsic problem is that bio with marauders and medivac heal creates a situation where terran is overpowered in terms of design. We remember why zerg got mutalisk regeneration. This made mutalisks overpowered to stand against this and cause other problems. Protoss got nexus cannon mainly to deal with terran drops in the backside while a few stimmed bio units attack the frontal line. It is overpowered as early aggression against Protoss became nearly impossible. This enabled the designers to give zerg an early game drop option. Again this turned out to be overpowered as zergs figured out to pack up mass queens + lings into overlords and drop them near the choke of T/P very early. Now we got liberators to deal with overpowered mutalisks. Again they are so much overpowered that mutalisks can hardly be played anymore at all.
All this, and I certainly could add more to this list. Is where overpowered units are being countered by overpowered untis. They are overpowered because when you commit on them they create punishing gameplay for the counterpart. Examples:
- Mutalisks get hit by a few mines and are all red. Few seconds later they are all full hp again. It is punishing for terran as this is like nothing happened at all. Solution: If mutas didn't have the regen, the gameplay would not be as punishing and hitting the mutalisks with mines would create rewarding gameplay for terran.
- Terran drops 2 dropships with 3 marauders + 10 marines into Z main. Z has 4 roaches or 16 lings there to defend while the other army is further away. These four roaches cannot decimate this drop at all and kill at best 2-3 marines before they die, lings about the same. It is punishing because it is about the same as if zerg left nothing behind to defend drops. Solution: without marauders it would not be as punishing as then drop defense could have a more fair fight against the drop.
Instead of giving more examples (which all technically work the same way) I wanna emphasize why the two given examples are not only creating punishing gameplay for the one side described but also for the other side.
- if mutalisks get one additional mine hit, then they almost all die. Zerg now knows if it was one less hit, it would be as almost nothing happened and I would be fine. As I got one more hit (which is what I mean with volatility, luck and chance of positioning and timing) I got punished all the way. Result: punishing gameplay for either of the sides.
- if terran splitted up the 2 dropships instead of dropping them both at the same location suddenly the 4 roaches are enough to decimate the one drop almost completely while the other ship might be flying closer to zergs main army anyway and therefore have to return. Terran now knows if I had kept them together I would have overcome these 4 roaches nearly without any losses, as I did not I get 100% punished. Again this is what I mean with volatility, luck and chance of positioning and timing.
We have 100% vs. 0% situations here and I certainly could fill up this post with a dozen more exampes like that (want the liberator example? no matter if I build 8 or 16 mutalisks, 4 liberators kill them equally as quickly and there is no difference if I built 8 or 16). Where is the middleground? Where are the shades of grey? As they don't exist we have this punishing gameplay and skill matters less.
It is important to acknowledge that this has effect on all skill levels. It drives noobs away as well as pros. Ppl. want to be rewarded for playing and not punished.
A good game-design and balance tries to reduce these situations and not actively provoke them.
It is necessary that blizzard executes a change in politics and philosophy in terms of game design. Stop to come up with overpowered solution against existing overpowered situations. These make the game more volatile, less skill based and therefore punishing and not rewarding.
I take any bet that if SC2 had rewarding gameplay instead of punishing gameplay not only dozen of thousands of noobs would find fun again in SC2 on their very own level of game but also ppl. like flash would return and play SC2 instead of broodwar.
He surely doesnt want to constantly deal with and rely on situations where mines hit the banelings/mutalisks in big numbers or not (refering to hots here). And if he wins or loses a match is solely decided by that, which is majorly luck, chance, timing and positioning of overpowered units that stand against each other.
And if we reduce the overpoweredness of many of these units, mech certainly might not be underpowered anymore. The problem of mech isn't necessarily that it is underpowered, but that almost everything else is overpowered while mech is not. You cannot reduce overpowered units of Z/P as much as wanted as they are there to deal with overpowered bio. You cannot buff mech alot more as terran composition that usually consist of 80% bio + mech would then require the other races to get even more overpowered units to counter that. The solution is to go the opposite way instead.
Mech is not overpowered because it doesn't have the mobility to go somewhere deal 100% damage with 0% losses and then teleport out, fly out or load into dropships and fly away. Tankivacs add this to tanks and therefore they are overpowered and should go. Warp prism with increased speed does add this to protoss (we all remember ppl. complaining about the speed increase): Fly in deal damage, load up from increased range and fly away with increased speed without terran being able to catch it. It is overpowered and should go.
The whole system of SC2 and more so broodwar can be described as 100dreds of risk vs. reward situations. As long as there exist 0% risk vs 100% reward situations the metagame will evolve around them. By nature this excludes alot of other options which are not about 0 vs. 100 and otherwise would be viable. Mech is just the most visible of them. This by nature again reduces skill needed to play SC2 on high levels as we all know the opponent is trying to abuse these 0 vs. 100 situations.
The metagame evolves around both players trying to abuse these 0 vs 100 things as much as possible so macrogames always go the same directions with the few exceptions of semi-allinish things like e.g. the banshee thing that masa did yesterday at dreamhack or e.g. a hellbat push. Doing bio drops is technically always better because they don't throw your macrogame back (0%) while you get the 100% chance to potentially deal damage with them and it is hardly possible to lose the drop at all in the early stages (0%).
Why did masa not go for a single banshee harrasment? Because dropping bio is better than that. Why is this? Because queens with increased range can nullify their effect all the way. Why again do we have queens with this range? Because stupidly overpowered rine/rauder + scv pushes and 4-5 gate protoss was too difficult to defend otherwise.
The issue with that is that by design the banshee should be the better harrassment option than a drop of bio units. Why? Because it could offer reward that is not 100 for a risk that is not 0 and the units main purpose is to offer harrassment and mapcontrol to terran. But bio can potentially boost in, unload, deal damage, upload without any losses and boost away. Therefore it is the 100 vs. 0 thing that excludes other options. It doesn't evel delay the macrogame of terran while banshee does.
Now what you have to do blizzard, is, to identify all these things and eliminate them as best as possible. Mutas should not be able to fly in deal damage and heal up again. We need a risk vs. reward situation here. When you fly in and deal damage and half of the mutas are orange after that they should at best be yellow some minutes later when they are needed. Then we would not need overpowered liberators to deal with mutalisks and mutalisks would still be an option.
Again I cannot emphasize enough that this is about skill caps of SC2 at the end of the day. Everybody can fly into terrans base kill 2-3 turrets, kill few scvs and delay mining time and move out as soon as defense moves in. 100 vs 0. It is so unlikely to hit 4 mines at the same place without having an overseer. 0 Risk 100% reward. Every noob can do a decisionmaking in this case.
If mutas did not regenerate the skill cap of SC2 would rise as the player had to do the decision and evaluation if he can afford to trade mutalisk hp vs. harrassment or if not. This would allow players to create more of a difference amongst themselves based on skill.
The same is true for bio drops. Everybody can drop kill the queen + few drones, fly away. 0 risk vs 100 reward. No decision to be made about that.
Same is true for the named warp prism that can load in units from safe distance and fly away without being catched. The whole wrong philosophy of blizzard comes to surface here (we want harrassment to be rewarding). What they create is the opposite, highly punishing situations.
Now I recognize this is getting pretty long. But I have another important thing to say: In the community I observe the discussion being stuck oftenly.
When warp prism was buffed alot of ppl. said it is op while the other half said it is required. Both are right. I sometimes feel like in a house of monkeys there. One side arguments by design. It is rightfully blamed to be overpowered by design. The other side arguments by metagame. It is rightfully claimed to be required to equal out other overpowered by design situations.
Both are right while literally everyone is too blind to see the source of this. Which I described here.
And David Kim. I am sorry to say. You are the head of mp design and balance. If you are not in the position to acknowledge that mistakes were made and correct them, you are the wrong guy to be there.
You are responsible for dividing the community, creating hate and disrespect amongst them. You are in position to stop it with good decisionmaking in game design, bring ppl. together again and form a game that makes them happy to play and not frustrated.
I just remember reaver drops in broodwar. Very high risk of losing both/single reaver + shuttle against very high potential reward. Things like that can work when they are not 0 vs. 100 and when not the whole game and metagame evolves around them. Btw. I remember we didn't have so much disrespect and hateful discussions in broodwar at all - at least not about balance. It might be about new generations but I think a major part is the game design itself (as described) that supports that.
On May 16 2016 01:59 LSN wrote: Polt vs. Elazer shows how much bullshit TvZ matchup is right now.
stopped reading. games with a huge skill difference say nothing about balance.
Look the attitude of this guy, just one amongst many. He doesn't even know the slightes bit where I am coming from and comes up with maximum disrespect.
You are correct LSN, but this stuff was exposed in huge blogs and threads back in WOL BETA among other things. The Marauder is here to stay, hard counters and all or nothing situations have actually been slightly reduced with LOTV compared to WOL; not enough maybe.
The current problem with mech IMO is that DK decided to remove the core weakness of the composition: mobility. With Tankvacks Tanks are one of the most mobile units in the game, so they become perfect for bio support. The negative is that their raw strength in stand and fight situations is mediocre at best. So you can't give them the power they need to be a solid core for mech because they become to strong with bio and medivacs.
I don't believe DK wanted intentionally to kill mech, i think it was incompetence and tunnel vision on his new found obsession with mobility and micro that blinded him on the repercussions of his design and balance decisions, but now, he probably sees it as to late. You can see this in his comments where he's talking about making mech viable, nerfing hard counters, giving more units to the Factory, and then suddendl says things like "maybe it's better to not have mech and bio distionction but a mix". He realised his blunder and is doing dmg control.
SC2 needs a major multiplayer patch like BW and WC had where for a significant amount of time the balance and design team analyze things as not just a per unit bases(as they do now), but in terms of synergy and unit interaction. Open play styles and not just individual unit viability. But IMO this kind of thinking hasn't been done in SC2 since the creation of WOL; the expansions have a distinct feel of having the focus only on individual units.
So realistically we will have some balance changes here, some balance changes there, these two will create some problems over there and some more balance changes will be needed, and so on and so on a never ending cycle that can never really change much of anything and as they fix a little of this, they will break a little of that. So what SC2 is today will probably always be, love it or not.
It doesn't take a few seconds for mutas to recover from a wm shot, it takes 28.5s ! Compared to other units : it takes 21s for any Protoss unit to get back their shield, and 3.1s for medivac to heal 40hp !!
And with the natural zerg regeneration if mutas have no regen it would take 104s !
Do the maths before starting to argument based on "popular lies".
On May 16 2016 19:15 Sapphire.lux wrote: You are correct LSN, but this stuff was exposed in huge blogs and threads back in WOL BETA among other things. The Marauder is here to stay, hard counters and all or nothing situations have actually been slightly reduced with LOTV compared to WOL; not enough maybe.
The current problem with mech IMO is that DK decided to remove the core weakness of the composition: mobility. With Tankvacks Tanks are one of the most mobile units in the game, so they become perfect for bio support. The negative is that their raw strength in stand and fight situations is mediocre at best. So you can't give them the power they need to be a solid core for mech because they become to strong with bio and medivacs.
I don't believe DK wanted intentionally to kill mech, i think it was incompetence and tunnel vision on his new found obsession with mobility and micro that blinded him on the repercussions of his design and balance decisions, but now, he probably sees it as to late. You can see this in his comments where he's talking about making mech viable, nerfing hard counters, giving more units to the Factory, and then suddendl says things like "maybe it's better to not have mech and bio distionction but a mix". He realised his blunder and is doing dmg control.
SC2 needs a major multiplayer patch like BW and WC had where for a significant amount of time the balance and design team analyze things as not just a per unit bases(as they do now), but in terms of synergy and unit interaction. Open play styles and not just individual unit viability. But IMO this kind of thinking hasn't been done in SC2 since the creation of WOL; the expansions have a distinct feel of having the focus only on individual units.
So realistically we will have some balance changes here, some balance changes there, these two will create some problems over there and some more balance changes will be needed, and so on and so on a never ending cycle that can never really change much of anything and as they fix a little of this, they will break a little of that. So what SC2 is today will probably always be, love it or not.
I am happy to see someone is willing to join the argument instead of just flaming. I have edited and added alot of things in my previous posts that refer to or add up with what you say.
In opposite to you I strongly believe there is still an option to let things go the correct way. It takes time and effort tho.
On May 16 2016 19:20 Tyrhanius wrote: Again a whine about mutalisk with big lies.
It doesn't take a few seconds for mutas to recover from a wm shot, it takes 28.5s ! Compared to other units : it takes 21s for any Protoss unit to get back their shield, and 3.1s for medivac to heal 40hp !!
And with the natural zerg regeneration if mutas have no regen it would take 104s !
Do the maths before starting to argument based on "popular lies".
Look this guy. He understands nothing. I am in this comunity for about 20 years and have hosted some of the biggest leagues in broodwar outside of korea. I am not willing to explain things to him more than I did. He is poisened and stuck in a who got the advantage, my race vs. rest of the world of things without asking for reasons, causes and interactions.
Probably many are too young to understand.
Look I don't want to look poisoned myself, and I am not. But I have absolutely zero tolerance for posts like that.
I have chosen to take an approach and explain with the larger view and scale of things why things are as they are.
This gives reason for many questions of the community, such as: - why do so many ppl play mobas and why does all leave SC2 - why do even progamers like flash (just prominent example) go back to broodwar and dont play SC2 - why do I and other ppl I talk with who are here since 98' get frustrated about SC2 as quickly as it is after playing it again for some weeks. - why is so much misunderstanding and disrespect in the community when it comes to talking balance and balance vs. design. - I gave detailed examples and explanations of what I am refering to so that as many ppl. as possible get into the position to understand the overall malfunctioning of SC2 and its reasons.
You should appreciate that instead of flaming and getting stuck on this unit needs one more or less armour discussions.
You can claim I am wrong at this or that point but please stop this smallish way of thinking of your race being at disposal and blame. I tried to keep it as neutral as possible and give examples for all races as all of them got these described mechanis everywhere.
We did discuss about smallish balance +/-1 armour issues for 5 years now. It didn't get us anywhere. Noone is any more happy about the state of SC2 than in the beginning. Balance and metagames of matchups have shifted but are in no way in a better position than before (watching nerchio vs. polt in this moment).
It is time to get back to the roots and question them. And if the community doesn't want that as a whole, we wont get anywhere in the future as well.
You're arrogant and act like only you understand the game while you only have superficial game knowledge.
You say things based on your opinion like they are admitted facts while it's just some bias ideas.
Now you're martyring yoursef rather that argue with facts, use persuasion :authority argument ("i've host games some i'm right), or discredit me with condescendant :he must be too young ("i'm superior, so i'm right).
You're using exactly the speech of the people who want to manipulate the truth for their own benefit and not the speech of someone impartial and open minded that just want to say the truth.
On May 16 2016 20:01 Tyrhanius wrote: You're arrogant and act like only you understand the game while you only have superficial game knowledge.
You say things based on your opinion like they are admitted facts while it's just some bias ideas.
Now you're martyring yoursef rather that argue with facts, use persuasion :authority argument ("i've host games some i'm right), or discredit me with condescendant :he must be too young ("i'm superior, so i'm right).
You're using exactly the speech of the people who want to manipulate the truth for their own benefit and not the speech of someone impartial and open minded that just want to say the truth.
When WOL was new, these problems I describe where initially recognized by alot of ppl who played broodwar. But it took almost no time that everybody accepted this as that what blizzards wants and stopped questioning it.
I am sorry to say that a certain arrogance is required to deal with people like you who are arrogant themselves. You wont make me feel bad about it. ;-)
Read what I edited into the post above. Watch nerchio vs. polt. It is imbalance vs. imbalance. It is who abuses his op mechanics more than the other - only. It might be fun to watch for some time but it is in no way fun to play and maximum frustrating. This causes all the hate see here in the forums.
I can't bring more evidence to my arguments than what reality provides me. SC2 is in a very bad spot design and balance vs. design wise and the more DK goes into this direction the more difficult it gets to balance this game by design and metagame. Basically in every ladder game I play ppl. claim balance and are highly frustrated. I am sometimes myself. Almost everyone else I know who cares does.
When I talk about balance, I stopped looking at winrates, I only look at game mechanics. Cause when TvZ has a 50/50 winrate and terran wins 100% of all-ins but loses 100% of macrogames and lets assume both are equally played as often then we get a 50/50 winrate where ppl. assume it is 100% balanced. It is not. And this is one of the major problems we have here in TL forums when discussing it.
As ppl still come up with aligulac and all the other things and base their arguments on it take my approach to psuh the balance and design discussion to another more reasonable level.
You have to admit that something is wrong at least, don't you? If you don't like my approach, which makes sense overall and gives reason for all that, then come up with your own. I might be wrong on certain details as everyone is here and then but I am pretty sure that what I came up with overall explains the status of SC2 - with an experience of 20 years in my back, which is nothing I am ashamed of telling you.
I pretty much simply agree with LSN. But it feels to me like Blizzard won't rethink things because it seems to be a matter of corporate image to them with this stuff. Any admittance of those core problems and flaws would damage their image of always making "near perfect" "very high quality" games which is what they most heavily rely on to sell new games with the brand... That's why, I can only recommend people to play other RTS when they feel they have done enough in SC2, other games that have many more "shades of grey" to borrow LSN's words which means more depth and skill (and fun).. that would be BW (still the best), AoE2 (macro centered), WC3 (micro centered)..
On May 16 2016 20:01 Tyrhanius wrote: You're arrogant and act like only you understand the game while you only have superficial game knowledge.
You say things based on your opinion like they are admitted facts while it's just some bias ideas.
Now you're martyring yoursef rather that argue with facts, use persuasion :authority argument ("i've host games some i'm right), or discredit me with condescendant :he must be too young ("i'm superior, so i'm right).
You're using exactly the speech of the people who want to manipulate the truth for their own benefit and not the speech of someone impartial and open minded that just want to say the truth.
On May 16 2016 01:59 LSN wrote: Polt vs. Elazer shows how much bullshit TvZ matchup is right now.
stopped reading. games with a huge skill difference say nothing about balance.
Look the attitude of this guy, just one amongst many. He doesn't even know the slightes bit where I am coming from and comes up with maximum disrespect.
I am done :p
Hey, I already took back what I said because I misunderstood you. I thought you were complaining about balance which apparently you weren't.
Ye, not blaming you, ppl are rightfully frustrated about SC2 and that shows in forums as well.
Masa vs Showtime.
That adapt drop play. What else then getting frustrated would happen to any of us if you lose a game like that? What do you think how many terran players SC2 will lose about that in the ladder again? This is pure furstration. Rotti said "unlucky timing". Skill doesn't play a role when winning games like that. It was abusive play at its best. Not saying showtime is unskilled, he in fact is one of the highest potential players in europe in terms of mindset and general approach to the game. But it is questionable if SC2 can ever get rid of these things without rethinking basics.
I think one of the options in Starcraft 2 should be to enable Casting different abilities through control groups, ie, remove the need to Tab through different unit types.
Right now, if you have sentries, templar - you need to press G for shield, F for forcefield, Tab T for storm.
After, you could have both selected and press G for guardian shield, T for storm and F for forcefield.
This would ease up the micro (and probably one of the most frustrating aspects of army control) from all Races (Stim, Snipe, Emp, Siege mode) and enable players to finally use the races to more potential.
Just read that JDG is quitting the game and returning back to BW because he feels SC2 isn't fun.
I admit i didn't have the courage to read your whole post LSN, but browsing through it rapidly i noticed some points that are similar to what i've been saying about SC2 for a while now. However, the OP vs OP dynamic is pretty specific to LOTV, i feel. However, right now it's pretty obvious that terran is forced into liberators in TvP with bio support that only serves the purpose to run after harass, for instance.
About the risk/reward thing i remember i was complaining in wol that everything protoss did was a gamble. Play macro, gamble, play agressive, gamble. Because if you went for drop DTs and failed, you were gonna die to the terran counter attack. Blizzard's way of fixing it was to give PO to protoss, and making investments such as DT shrines less costly. But without removing some of the DTs strength. Therefore DTs drop have a potential to end games, and even if you don't, you're fine.
That's not specific to protoss. In WOL, each form of harass was an investment, and a (most of the times) manageable risk. Cloack was 200/200, d'y'all remember? You had to research siege for tanks, therefore if you went for too much hellion harass and didn't switch in time, boom, punished. Muta health is a good exemple. Taking a thor volley on your muta stack was a fucking stab to the testicules in WOL. It significatively gave space to the terran. Also, and because worker harass is SO COOL, the weakening of macro mechs also increase the harass' efficiency. If you don't risk much by harassing and each time you kill a worker you hit the jackpot, why not harass all the time, with the best option you have, and without any sort of strategic thinking?
In LOTV, there's no way to create yourself space from harass options that are basically riskless unless you fuck up. Disruptor drop TvP openings and tankivac TvZ openings are good exemple.
As a terran, I hate the state of the game right now. I'm forced into one single style, and even though i played mech only 15% of my games at most in WOL, it pains me to see every single SP/Facto unit be bio support. And as i've said many times in the past, there's absolutely no way blizzard make all those units viable for terran alongside bio. However i don't see DK doing anything about it, he's managing the community's expectations by doing stale and pointless changes. Again, i'm gonna blab about terran, but once we see only tankivacs and liberators win games 1k times, everyone's gonna be bored with terran.
The game is no fun mostly. I can be fun for some time ofc.
When ppl ask me about SC2 I have to tell them that they are better off with their time with just playing some CS:GO or mobas and you need a very high frustration threshold for SC2 - even tho it is way easier than BW.
If the game was fun, why would players like grubby, hasuobs, all the koreans and many more turn their back to it and play other games on their streams?
I myself haven't had the motivation to play my bonus pool to zero in any season within 5 years of time. Not a single time. When I play the game for some weeks I need 4x as time break after.
When I watch TakeTV I see Naruto being frustrated about the game all the way. He even talks about playing CS:GO. When I watch nate playing on stream, he is so much frustrated about the game that he cant even hold it back (and I honestly watched about 30-60 minutes of him max in total). When I see big tournament casts I see that casters for their own and the games benefit hold back with their true opinions.
Guys, I don't care if you like me or hate me. Also there is no other game to ever come close to SC/SC2 RTS. We got one chance to have a decently playable RTS for the next couple of years, and that is that blizzard gets these things right.
We might want to forget about all the balance hatred here in forums and help together to make SC2 the game it should and very well could be.
One problem about this however is that there are too many voices for DK & Blizzard, I assume and I know. One issue there is, is that every kid of age 18 who reached GM by training how to be the most abusive in ladders values their own opinion higher than anyone else. Another issue is that korean pro feedback might be race biased as well. Ppl. who earn money with playing SC2 or plan to do so have a legitimate reason to talk for their own race and where they put time and effort in.
These things are obstacles for DK and Blizzard to have good decisionmaking. They want to satisfy everyone. However they can't. They don't know which voices to listen to.
Now that is something that we as a community have to get under control first. Best players not necessarily or even not at all make best game designers. I know that huge parts of the community believe this tho.
Life is a matter of focus and priorities. I believe that someone who has picked his focus to be to become the best player on earth cannot at the same time be the best game designer on earth, because it required a shift in priorities which the individual has obviously chosen not to do.
Of course there are exceptions and multitalents but these will be the rarities, and I don't want to blame anyone. However Broodwar wasn't designed by progamers. From what I know mapmakers who many ppl rightfully claim to have balanced broodwar were not the top notch players but ppl. who tried to figure out every single detail about what is important for mapping and focused mainly on that.
I am trying to be constructive here and figure out sources of failure first as any common business would do that. And with that much amount of failure that has found its way into SC2 after broodwar was the perfect way, I think it is a good idea to do that first.
A lot of the people remaining and defending SC2 hardcore are ones that did not play BW and legitemily do not know any better. I know it sounds arrogant but it is what it is. If you discovered Starcraft through SC2, you are going to form an emotional attachment to it and we go in "emotional" mode when we defend something we have feelings for.
For me, the first Total War game i ever played was Empire. A game that 100% of the existing community disliked. But to me, it was amazing. There i had my first Total War experience and i didn't know how much better it could be.
It's worth bearing in mind that both Browder and DK had to fallow one of the biggest geniuses of game design in Rob Pardo at one of the most prestigious game developers ever, for a game that defined RTS for a long time. It wasn't difficult to fail at meeting expectations let alone improve on the original. What was bad IMO was that for most of SC2s history they did not work with the community to incrementally improve the game. Now is to late IMO.
And i will never understand why Blizzard decided to keep the man that created the best RTS games ever in BW and WC3 away from such a big project like SC2. Wow made a lot of money sure, but where would SC2 be now if it were made by Pardo? Lucky for WoW fans and unlucky for SC2 fans.
Actually I've built a lot of affection for SCII during WOL. I still go play the WOL ladder and i'm having a blast, because despite some amount of flaws, the good designed stuff outshined the bad one. Every single unit added to SCII after WOL has terrible design. Naturally i've also built up so much dissapointment : remember the teasers for HOTS? Oracles building forcefields on mineral lines instead of being a dumb banshee on steroids. Even the warhound's design was one of a mech unit that could chase and answer to multi proned attacks.
I'd like the pros to assume a more active role in game design. When Sea said he performed because adepts were so broken, DK went into direct submission and adepts got nerfed. Asking the pro's opinion on game design is possible, but talking about balance is impossible i guess, because they live of their race's strength. But the main split between DK and the community is that DK/blizzard consider the game is finished, and simply needs balance tweaking/metagame fixes, while the community is still waiting for the big design changes promised during the lotv beta.
And last : about LOTV's fun. Fun has a lot to do with frustration. And where we've somewhat talked about the risk/reward issues of LOTV, there's also the counterplay issue, which is something i'm bitching about since the lotv beta. Frustration comes a lot from the feeling that you can't do anything about something. Sure, it's got something to do with risk/reward : when you get DT rushed, and the guy kills you, you leave. Log into another game, get DT rushed again, you manage to defend with few losses, try to counter... You can't. You may take an advantage, but if the guy doesn't suicide units you can't punish him hard. The guy had the potential to end the game with a strat you can't punish if you counter well. And this idea of lack of counterplay is fucking EVERYWHERE in LOTV. I often take protoss as an exemple, but terran has a lot of shit like that. Liberator finding the "sweet" spot where he can deny a mineral line. As a toss you feel helpless if you didn't go for SG. Mine drops killing 10 probes, you feel helpless. As a zerg, you go hatch => speed => 3rd hatch on a macro map. Terran comes with a tankivac : you have NO WAY to shut it down. You can only manage the losses. And that's incredibly frustrating. And it also influences watching streams : when you got abused by invulnerable adept shades in your mineral lines on the ladder, and see masa loose a game to showtime's adept drop allin, you don't enjoy what you see. I'm not having fun seeing iaguz abuse liberators and deny protosses mineral lines. I don't go "woooo what a play" when i see a liberator helplessly die to 3 biles.
I think the thing that embodies the most both the points i'm trying to make is the 1g expo => SG with an oracle in PvT. Protoss has the potential to kill 13 scvs with this unit, aka finish the game. It needs a perticular counter from the terran player. The risk is absent, because you can't loose the oracle, unless you get reckless and move over a mine. Reward wise, you can finish the game straight up... or you can have a perpetual scout of the terran army with envision, that allows no counterplay whatsoever. So the oracle's envision embodies both this failing risk/reward relation, AND the lack of terran counterplay who can merely "manage the losses" (being perma envisioned is a loss in itself) I'm taking protoss as an exemple again, but terran's tankivac in tvz works the same way. Also, terran right now has much more of a problem with the liberator being OP as balls.
On May 16 2016 21:48 JackONeill wrote: In LOTV, there's no way to create yourself space from harass options that are basically riskless unless you fuck up. Disruptor drop TvP openings and tankivac TvZ openings are good exemple.
I wish zerg had some way of punishing harassment units. Terran has widow mines and protoss can open phoenix and run down those super-fast, super-annoying units. The closest thing zerg has is mutalisk (fast because it's a harass unit and only harass units are allowed to be fast) but rushing mutalisks is pretty risky and bad, especially if it's phoenix or liberators.
On May 16 2016 23:18 JackONeill wrote: And last : about LOTV's fun. Fun has a lot to do with frustration. And where we've somewhat talked about the risk/reward issues of LOTV, there's also the counterplay issue, which is something i'm bitching about since the lotv beta. Frustration comes a lot from the feeling that you can't do anything about something. Sure, it's got something to do with risk/reward : when you get DT rushed, and the guy kills you, you leave. Log into another game, get DT rushed again, you manage to defend with few losses, try to counter... You can't. You may take an advantage, but if the guy doesn't suicide units you can't punish him hard. The guy had the potential to end the game with a strat you can't punish if you counter well. And this idea of lack of counterplay is fucking EVERYWHERE in LOTV. I often take protoss as an exemple, but terran has a lot of shit like that. Liberator finding the "sweet" spot where he can deny a mineral line. As a toss you feel helpless if you didn't go for SG. Mine drops killing 10 probes, you feel helpless. As a zerg, you go hatch => speed => 3rd hatch on a macro map. Terran comes with a tankivac : you have NO WAY to shut it down. You can only manage the losses. And that's incredibly frustrating.
You just described 3 light harass options. All 3 of these strategies are designed to put on some light harass while transitioning into the rest of the game. None are all ins or expose you to serious counters and likewise, none require a huge investment from the opponent to minimize damage.
TvZ tankivacs are handled well with queens and a few lings and good map awareness and positioning.
Liberators are dealt with by pylons or queens. Range liberators are a larger investment that's dealt with by corruptors or a stargate (larger investment in fusion core + range upgrade = larger investment to defend).
TvP mine drops are dealt with by moving your probes away when terran flies in.
And my final point will be that Starcraft has never been a game of just build X unit to counter Y unit and wait patiently for X unit to win cleanly with no control. There is always some element of control. This is what makes Starcraft a good game.
Sure these attacks can potentially do a lot of damage if handled poorly, but your scouting, preparation, and control create your ability to get an advantage and are often what define you as a good player or not. If devastating damage arises from light harass, then you have only yourself as the defender to blame. It is not a fault with the game and is only frustrating if you allow it to be frustrating. It should be a learning experience.
no balance patch in 3 months and counting, a meaningful redesign of LOTV bullshit for more than 6? I don't understand how anybody could work this slowly.
All you need, is a oerson with a functioning brain, 2 days tops, and access to the internet and prior knowledge of the game and you should be able to at least make a patch that changes SOMETHING for the better.
There's so much shit that just plain doesn't have any place in sc2 like parasitic bomb, mass air being so dominant for all 3 races, tankevac, immortal being tanky AND high damage, warp prism... so much BS ravagers... and WTF tankevacs? MOBILE SIEGE UNIT?! blizz pls stop
On May 16 2016 23:18 JackONeill wrote: And last : about LOTV's fun. Fun has a lot to do with frustration. And where we've somewhat talked about the risk/reward issues of LOTV, there's also the counterplay issue, which is something i'm bitching about since the lotv beta. Frustration comes a lot from the feeling that you can't do anything about something. Sure, it's got something to do with risk/reward : when you get DT rushed, and the guy kills you, you leave. Log into another game, get DT rushed again, you manage to defend with few losses, try to counter... You can't. You may take an advantage, but if the guy doesn't suicide units you can't punish him hard. The guy had the potential to end the game with a strat you can't punish if you counter well. And this idea of lack of counterplay is fucking EVERYWHERE in LOTV. I often take protoss as an exemple, but terran has a lot of shit like that. Liberator finding the "sweet" spot where he can deny a mineral line. As a toss you feel helpless if you didn't go for SG. Mine drops killing 10 probes, you feel helpless. As a zerg, you go hatch => speed => 3rd hatch on a macro map. Terran comes with a tankivac : you have NO WAY to shut it down. You can only manage the losses. And that's incredibly frustrating.
You just described 3 light harass options. All 3 of these strategies are designed to put on some light harass while transitioning into the rest of the game. None are all ins or expose you to serious counters and likewise, none require a huge investment from the opponent to minimize damage.
TvZ tankivacs are handled well with queens and a few lings and good map awareness and positioning.
Liberators are dealt with by pylons or queens. Range liberators are a larger investment that's dealt with by corruptors or a stargate (larger investment in fusion core + range upgrade = larger investment to defend).
TvP mine drops are dealt with by moving your probes away when terran flies in.
And my final point will be that Starcraft has never been a game of just build X unit to counter Y unit and wait patiently for X unit to win cleanly with no control. There is always some element of control. This is what makes Starcraft a good game.
Sure these attacks can potentially do a lot of damage if handled poorly, but your scouting, preparation, and control create your ability to get an advantage and are often what define you as a good player or not. If devastating damage arises from light harass, then you have only yourself as the defender to blame. It is not a fault with the game and is only frustrating if you allow it to be frustrating. It should be a learning experience.
This "just get good" is getting annoying for me too much so I cannot resist...
I don't have the time to learn from my mistakes. I want to log in, play few games, enjoy the fun. Losing to a single moment in a game is frustrating to me, because I invested my energy and my FREE TIME into something that was lost in a single moment of "oops, you just lost the game". I don't like losing. I know I cannot win all the time. But the hell I feel better when I lose after a fight instead of "you didn't know the oracle can be here so fast, right?" ><
I think the problem is that all those plays mentioned (tvz tankivac etc.) Require more attention and control on the defenders side. Of course, once certain level of skill is reached that is no longer a problem, but before that it is just frustrating and unfair.
I think the problem is that all those plays mentioned (tvz tankivac etc.) Require more attention and control on the defenders side. Of course, once certain level of skill is reached that is no longer a problem, but before that it is just frustrating and unfair.
defending tankevacs takes way less attention on the defenders side, its not even close, but its irrelevant because its so effective. its just a stupid idea in general, it ruins tvt completely and is a bandaid to ravagers + marauder nerf.
mobile siege units why blizzard why. can't imagine whats next, phoenix speed tempests? "we felt that tempests could use some sick repositioning micro tricks so we made them faster herp derp im blizzard"
I think the problem is that all those plays mentioned (tvz tankivac etc.) Require more attention and control on the defenders side. Of course, once certain level of skill is reached that is no longer a problem, but before that it is just frustrating and unfair.
mobile siege units why blizzard why. can't imagine whats next, phoenix speed tempests? "we felt that tempests could use some sick repositioning micro tricks so we made them faster herp derp im blizzard"
actually that was in the beta. Not quite phoenix speed but pretty fast.
On May 17 2016 00:51 Nazara wrote: I think the problem is that all those plays mentioned (tvz tankivac etc.) Require more attention and control on the defenders side. Of course, once certain level of skill is reached that is no longer a problem, but before that it is just frustrating and unfair.
It if required more attention and control on the attackers, no one would attack in higher levels of play, just like it was towards the end of WoL where the games that did not involve some kind of 2 base all in basically consisted in a never-ending eye-staring contest from both players.
Likewise, units being too easily "countered" (someone spoke about DTs) make them not being used at all in any form of solid play, which occurs quite fast a few months after a game/patch release when everything has been figured out.
"Ooops I looked away, I lost!" => this occured many times in WoL/HotS, you just did not know about it before making the armies clash because the macro perfection required is less visual than the current harass in LotV, but lack of knowledge about things never made them less real. At least in LotV you can watch streams without falling asleep, which is a plus.
On May 16 2016 20:01 Tyrhanius wrote: You're arrogant and act like only you understand the game while you only have superficial game knowledge.
You say things based on your opinion like they are admitted facts while it's just some bias ideas.
Now you're martyring yoursef rather that argue with facts, use persuasion :authority argument ("i've host games some i'm right), or discredit me with condescendant :he must be too young ("i'm superior, so i'm right).
You're using exactly the speech of the people who want to manipulate the truth for their own benefit and not the speech of someone impartial and open minded that just want to say the truth.
When WOL was new, these problems I describe where initially recognized by alot of ppl who played broodwar. But it took almost no time that everybody accepted this as that what blizzards wants and stopped questioning it.
I am sorry to say that a certain arrogance is required to deal with people like you who are arrogant themselves. You wont make me feel bad about it. ;-)
Read what I edited into the post above. Watch nerchio vs. polt. It is imbalance vs. imbalance. It is who abuses his op mechanics more than the other - only. It might be fun to watch for some time but it is in no way fun to play and maximum frustrating. This causes all the hate see here in the forums.
I can't bring more evidence to my arguments than what reality provides me. SC2 is in a very bad spot design and balance vs. design wise and the more DK goes into this direction the more difficult it gets to balance this game by design and metagame. Basically in every ladder game I play ppl. claim balance and are highly frustrated. I am sometimes myself. Almost everyone else I know who cares does.
When I talk about balance, I stopped looking at winrates, I only look at game mechanics. Cause when TvZ has a 50/50 winrate and terran wins 100% of all-ins but loses 100% of macrogames and lets assume both are equally played as often then we get a 50/50 winrate where ppl. assume it is 100% balanced. It is not. And this is one of the major problems we have here in TL forums when discussing it.
As ppl still come up with aligulac and all the other things and base their arguments on it take my approach to psuh the balance and design discussion to another more reasonable level.
You have to admit that something is wrong at least, don't you? If you don't like my approach, which makes sense overall and gives reason for all that, then come up with your own. I might be wrong on certain details as everyone is here and then but I am pretty sure that what I came up with overall explains the status of SC2 - with an experience of 20 years in my back, which is nothing I am ashamed of telling you.
The thing is each one having OP stuff is kind of asymetric balance. The balance is better than during WOL/HOTS.
WOL/HOTS were too often : "who plays the OP race of the moment". Early Wol, terran was OP with bunker rush, really fast stim, very strong tank on tiny maps. Then nerf, hellions/banshee reck Z until Z got queen range buff, and then it becomes broodlords/infestor area.
On HOTS, Terran OP again with hellbat drop, until they nerf, still OP with WM rally build. Then WM gets nerf too hard, and Zerg got favored (+overseer speed buff). Until they nerfed SH, and terran mech become OP.
SC2 have always been frustrated for some aspect, but at least now, you don't have to wait the next patch to expect winning games, just to change your play and abuse of some strength of your race.
LOTV is much more strategic than WOL/HOTS were. You don't spam the same build order, do good micro/mecanism, and 100% win (wasn't really the case on WOL/HOTS, but it's more true on LOTV). And for me, it's the reason why MVP/life were so sucessful on SC2, while Flash/Jaedong weren't.
You take a risk, or play safe, it will pay or not. It makes LOTV much more versatile, and now every progamer can loose a game vs anybody, just because they do the wrong choice, while "their mecanism were on point".
It's not the best player who win, but the one who does the right choice at the right time.
It could be really frustrated to lose, while you'r a good player, but did a wrong choice, and get crushed and humiliated, but honestly, it's exactly how life (not the player ^^) works.
SC2 is kind of weird game, you don't play it to relax, but you want big challenge, and SC2 is exactly that : a game you can't never truly master, or passionate love that will end bad anyway.
The only big regret of LOTV is they nearly kill LBM vs 4M on ZvT which was so good to watch, and even better to play, for this: survive drop with only ground unit, until hive/ultras, and try to kill Terran before it gets mass liberator/ghost.
I'm mad of "community" that ask for "macro change" resulting -25% larvas nerf, and addition of a muta hard counter while the MU was near perfect.
On May 16 2016 20:01 Tyrhanius wrote: You're arrogant and act like only you understand the game while you only have superficial game knowledge.
You say things based on your opinion like they are admitted facts while it's just some bias ideas.
Now you're martyring yoursef rather that argue with facts, use persuasion :authority argument ("i've host games some i'm right), or discredit me with condescendant :he must be too young ("i'm superior, so i'm right).
You're using exactly the speech of the people who want to manipulate the truth for their own benefit and not the speech of someone impartial and open minded that just want to say the truth.
When WOL was new, these problems I describe where initially recognized by alot of ppl who played broodwar. But it took almost no time that everybody accepted this as that what blizzards wants and stopped questioning it.
That is not true. For most of WoLs time there were a lot of threads and blogs, some of them very, very thorough. Even during HOTS.
The problem was, no one was listening, and eventually people just gave up and left. It was hoped that HOTS might be the saving grace, but after an initial returning of players and spectators it became obvious that none of the major complains were addressed and people left again. By the time of LOTV it was late IMO, especially since there are still things that are not addressed.
So people did have a lot of patience and some put in a lot of effort to explain. But you can only keep hope for so long especially since there were other developers and esports out there that had a different attitude let's say. Even so, you have players like Flash that play the "old" game and gets more views then major tournaments of SC2. So it's not a RTS in general problem, it's a SC2 problem.
On May 17 2016 00:29 SwiftCrane wrote: no balance patch in 3 months and counting, a meaningful redesign of LOTV bullshit for more than 6? I don't understand how anybody could work this slowly.
All you need, is a oerson with a functioning brain, 2 days tops, and access to the internet and prior knowledge of the game and you should be able to at least make a patch that changes SOMETHING for the better.
There's so much shit that just plain doesn't have any place in sc2 like parasitic bomb, mass air being so dominant for all 3 races, tankevac, immortal being tanky AND high damage, warp prism... so much BS ravagers... and WTF tankevacs? MOBILE SIEGE UNIT?! blizz pls stop
Uh because the metagame barely started to settle probably a month ago? Starcraft has a delicate metagame, this isn't a MOBA.
The only thing you stated that isn't senseless crying is how powerful mass air is, and then you turn around and say Parasitic Bomb (the one singular tool Zerg has to fight against Mass air because Infestors are never getting buffed) has no place in the game lol
On May 17 2016 00:29 SwiftCrane wrote: no balance patch in 3 months and counting, a meaningful redesign of LOTV bullshit for more than 6? I don't understand how anybody could work this slowly.
All you need, is a oerson with a functioning brain, 2 days tops, and access to the internet and prior knowledge of the game and you should be able to at least make a patch that changes SOMETHING for the better.
There's so much shit that just plain doesn't have any place in sc2 like parasitic bomb, mass air being so dominant for all 3 races, tankevac, immortal being tanky AND high damage, warp prism... so much BS ravagers... and WTF tankevacs? MOBILE SIEGE UNIT?! blizz pls stop
Uh because the metagame barely started to settle probably a month ago? Starcraft has a delicate metagame, this isn't a MOBA.
The only thing you stated that isn't senseless crying is how powerful mass air is, and then you turn around and say Parasitic Bomb (the one singular tool Zerg has to fight against Mass air because Infestors are never getting buffed) has no place in the game lol
parasitic bomb may discourage other races from going air but it makes the zerg air deathball far stronger and because broodlords can only be fought with air units the other player is forced to mass air regardless. So parasitic bomb promotes mass air deathballs instead of discouraging it.
On May 17 2016 00:29 SwiftCrane wrote: no balance patch in 3 months and counting, a meaningful redesign of LOTV bullshit for more than 6? I don't understand how anybody could work this slowly.
All you need, is a oerson with a functioning brain, 2 days tops, and access to the internet and prior knowledge of the game and you should be able to at least make a patch that changes SOMETHING for the better.
There's so much shit that just plain doesn't have any place in sc2 like parasitic bomb, mass air being so dominant for all 3 races, tankevac, immortal being tanky AND high damage, warp prism... so much BS ravagers... and WTF tankevacs? MOBILE SIEGE UNIT?! blizz pls stop
Uh because the metagame barely started to settle probably a month ago? Starcraft has a delicate metagame, this isn't a MOBA.
The only thing you stated that isn't senseless crying is how powerful mass air is, and then you turn around and say Parasitic Bomb (the one singular tool Zerg has to fight against Mass air because Infestors are never getting buffed) has no place in the game lol
parasitic bomb may discourage other races from going air but it makes the zerg air deathball far stronger and because broodlords can only be fought with air units the other player is forced to mass air regardless. So parasitic bomb promotes mass air deathballs instead of discouraging it.
Removing PB would also be disastrous. I remember many terrans saying that mobile and aggressive mech would be viable after the SH nerf and that SH were the only reason for turtling with mech. Surprisingly removing the one proper counter to a play style ended in that play style becoming the most popular one. Without PB we would see terrible mass air strategies against Z. I do think that air units as a rule are to strong. Phoenix dominate the early game against Z, tempest are stupid, liberators are way too good and PB is a band aid to cover for weak corruptors. (not sure about BC´s. Hopefully we will never see them again.)
Actually if terran played turtly in late HOTS TvZ mech, it was because ground mech sucked so hard, and that sky terran was so OP. TvZ were about terran securing a third with mass tank viking, defend the roach/hydra viper go, and then switch to air. But you could not move out, until having 6 BCs, which was stupid.
PB as you very rightly said is a stupid band aid. I'd much rather like to remove the PB, and make the SH a spellcaster that can summon scourges like the infestor spawns infested terrans.
I just wish this fool Kim would fucking fix the game rather than spam these interminable "updates".
TY was very clear after the GSL finals. Presumably given he is one of the top 2 Terrans in the world atm, Mr Kim would have had an in-depth debrief with TY about why TY thinks Protoss is op. Did this happen? What did TY say? If Kim disagrees with TY, why does he? Kim isn't even prepared to address what TY has told him - we get some reference to there being a possible issue with Immortals. Nothing about adepts, WP range, MSC preventing all harassment, 4 supply Tempests, difficulty for Terran to scout which bullshit is incoming etc, etc.
Is Kim not surprised that Innovation, one of the best sc2 players of all time, is struggling to get picked for SKT? Why does Kim think this is? Is it because Innovation has stopped practising? Or could there be another reason?
Does Polt not practice anymore? Isn't it a little strange that a guy who dominated the foreign scene for 5 years is suddenly losing to every man and his dog (oh except in TvT where he totally owns)... Perhaps Polt has lost is skills in the other match-ups or had a stroke that only affects games vs P or Z. Or PERHAPS THERE IS A FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THE GAME.
On May 17 2016 00:29 SwiftCrane wrote: no balance patch in 3 months and counting, a meaningful redesign of LOTV bullshit for more than 6? I don't understand how anybody could work this slowly.
All you need, is a oerson with a functioning brain, 2 days tops, and access to the internet and prior knowledge of the game and you should be able to at least make a patch that changes SOMETHING for the better.
There's so much shit that just plain doesn't have any place in sc2 like parasitic bomb, mass air being so dominant for all 3 races, tankevac, immortal being tanky AND high damage, warp prism... so much BS ravagers... and WTF tankevacs? MOBILE SIEGE UNIT?! blizz pls stop
Uh because the metagame barely started to settle probably a month ago? Starcraft has a delicate metagame, this isn't a MOBA.
The only thing you stated that isn't senseless crying is how powerful mass air is, and then you turn around and say Parasitic Bomb (the one singular tool Zerg has to fight against Mass air because Infestors are never getting buffed) has no place in the game lol
parasitic bomb may discourage other races from going air but it makes the zerg air deathball far stronger and because broodlords can only be fought with air units the other player is forced to mass air regardless. So parasitic bomb promotes mass air deathballs instead of discouraging it.
Removing PB would also be disastrous. I remember many terrans saying that mobile and aggressive mech would be viable after the SH nerf and that SH were the only reason for turtling with mech. Surprisingly removing the one proper counter to a play style ended in that play style becoming the most popular one. Without PB we would see terrible mass air strategies against Z. I do think that air units as a rule are to strong. Phoenix dominate the early game against Z, tempest are stupid, liberators are way too good and PB is a band aid to cover for weak corruptors. (not sure about BC´s. Hopefully we will never see them again.)
Yeah but ravens already got heavily nerfed in LotV, liberators are about to be nerfed and tempests absolutely need to be nerfed. With all those changes I'm not sure parasitic bomb is really necessary.
On May 17 2016 00:29 SwiftCrane wrote: no balance patch in 3 months and counting, a meaningful redesign of LOTV bullshit for more than 6? I don't understand how anybody could work this slowly.
All you need, is a oerson with a functioning brain, 2 days tops, and access to the internet and prior knowledge of the game and you should be able to at least make a patch that changes SOMETHING for the better.
There's so much shit that just plain doesn't have any place in sc2 like parasitic bomb, mass air being so dominant for all 3 races, tankevac, immortal being tanky AND high damage, warp prism... so much BS ravagers... and WTF tankevacs? MOBILE SIEGE UNIT?! blizz pls stop
Uh because the metagame barely started to settle probably a month ago? Starcraft has a delicate metagame, this isn't a MOBA.
The only thing you stated that isn't senseless crying is how powerful mass air is, and then you turn around and say Parasitic Bomb (the one singular tool Zerg has to fight against Mass air because Infestors are never getting buffed) has no place in the game lol
parasitic bomb may discourage other races from going air but it makes the zerg air deathball far stronger and because broodlords can only be fought with air units the other player is forced to mass air regardless. So parasitic bomb promotes mass air deathballs instead of discouraging it.
Removing PB would also be disastrous.
Take your PB logic and apply it to nerfing liberators. Same issue, different race.
On May 14 2016 04:43 Seeker wrote: Fix The F*ing Tempest Please...
I agree. The Tempest could use some retooling. From my experience its a very niche unit that is only viable when the Protoss is already winning the game or on certain spawn locations with close air positions. Overall its a unit that has poor DPS and very slow maneuverability. Two qualities that are not present in any other unit in the game. Its only saving grace being its superior range. However that is easily nullified by simply engaging the Tempests in a direct fight.
The Tempest seems to be a "winmore" unit, designed to take a winning position and build upon it to get even further ahead by sieging the opposition from a distance. While that is useful in games where the opponent is well defended but are contained. It is hardly useful when the playing field is level and the opponent still has that strong defensive position.
Maybe Carriers or Void Rays are the answer for more even games? I am not sure. In theory they would do very well against Lurkers or Liberator positions (more so the Carriers than the Void Rays), but Carriers have the longest build time in the game. and that doesn't even included the fact they only come out with 4 Interceptors.
Why does Protoss have 2 Capital ships while the other races do not? Blizzard already reduced the size of the Tempest. It looks pedestrian compared to its original form in HOTS. I would think it makes sense to reduce its capital ship/massive status. The Fleet Beacon is single handedly the most expensive structure in the game. We should make it pure Stargate tech. That might solve the problem with how inherently expensive it is.
If someone is concerned with scouting. I would like to point out that they can see the unit being produced in the Stargate. Something that does not exist with any other structure. So scouting will not be an issue.
Lastly I would like to point out The Tempests counter each other due to their MASSIVE status. How stupid does it seem that best counter to a unit is itself? In PvP I hate the idea that the ultimate late game army composition is infact a Tempest war....
On May 17 2016 08:27 terrantosaur wrote: I just wish this fool Kim would fucking fix the game rather than spam these interminable "updates".
TY was very clear after the GSL finals. Presumably given he is one of the top 2 Terrans in the world atm, Mr Kim would have had an in-depth debrief with TY about why TY thinks Protoss is op. Did this happen? What did TY say? If Kim disagrees with TY, why does he? Kim isn't even prepared to address what TY has told him - we get some reference to there being a possible issue with Immortals. Nothing about adepts, WP range, MSC preventing all harassment, 4 supply Tempests, difficulty for Terran to scout which bullshit is incoming etc, etc.
Is Kim not surprised that Innovation, one of the best sc2 players of all time, is struggling to get picked for SKT? Why does Kim think this is? Is it because Innovation has stopped practising? Or could there be another reason?
Does Polt not practice anymore? Isn't it a little strange that a guy who dominated the foreign scene for 5 years is suddenly losing to every man and his dog (oh except in TvT where he totally owns)... Perhaps Polt has lost is skills in the other match-ups or had a stroke that only affects games vs P or Z. Or PERHAPS THERE IS A FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THE GAME.
User was warned for this post (Balane whine)
Are you implying Terran is underpowered? Terran? Arguably the most well rounded and abusable race in the game....
And you think Terran is having a problems winning? LOL Only you man....only you.
Just thought about this watching showtime vs nerchio, but it'd be nice it PO wasn't able to target buildings. This way you'd stop the ridiculous "2pylons on your choke overcharge lol" in TvP.
On May 17 2016 10:30 Sweetness.751 wrote: Lastly I would like to point out The Tempests counter each other due to their MASSIVE status. How stupid does it seem that best counter to a unit is itself? In PvP I hate the idea that the ultimate late game army composition is infact a Tempest war....
On May 17 2016 08:27 terrantosaur wrote: I just wish this fool Kim would fucking fix the game rather than spam these interminable "updates".
TY was very clear after the GSL finals. Presumably given he is one of the top 2 Terrans in the world atm, Mr Kim would have had an in-depth debrief with TY about why TY thinks Protoss is op. Did this happen? What did TY say? If Kim disagrees with TY, why does he? Kim isn't even prepared to address what TY has told him - we get some reference to there being a possible issue with Immortals. Nothing about adepts, WP range, MSC preventing all harassment, 4 supply Tempests, difficulty for Terran to scout which bullshit is incoming etc, etc.
Is Kim not surprised that Innovation, one of the best sc2 players of all time, is struggling to get picked for SKT? Why does Kim think this is? Is it because Innovation has stopped practising? Or could there be another reason?
Does Polt not practice anymore? Isn't it a little strange that a guy who dominated the foreign scene for 5 years is suddenly losing to every man and his dog (oh except in TvT where he totally owns)... Perhaps Polt has lost is skills in the other match-ups or had a stroke that only affects games vs P or Z. Or PERHAPS THERE IS A FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THE GAME.
User was warned for this post (Balane whine)
Are you implying Terran is underpowered? Terran? Arguably the most well rounded and abusable race in the game....
And you think Terran is having a problems winning? LOL Only you man....only you.
Eh..No. Terran is far from being well rounded. Otherwise we wouldn´t see Bio for 6 years in 90% of the games from a race that normally has access to two unique playstyles, one of them being constantly denied from the community and the dev team alike. Maybe not underpowered but not well rounded either.
On May 17 2016 06:31 JackONeill wrote: Actually if terran played turtly in late HOTS TvZ mech, it was because ground mech sucked so hard, and that sky terran was so OP. TvZ were about terran securing a third with mass tank viking, defend the roach/hydra viper go, and then switch to air. But you could not move out, until having 6 BCs, which was stupid.
PB as you very rightly said is a stupid band aid. I'd much rather like to remove the PB, and make the SH a spellcaster that can summon scourges like the infestor spawns infested terrans.
If ground mech sucked so hard, it wouldn't have defended everything so easily.
On May 17 2016 06:31 JackONeill wrote: Actually if terran played turtly in late HOTS TvZ mech, it was because ground mech sucked so hard, and that sky terran was so OP. TvZ were about terran securing a third with mass tank viking, defend the roach/hydra viper go, and then switch to air. But you could not move out, until having 6 BCs, which was stupid.
PB as you very rightly said is a stupid band aid. I'd much rather like to remove the PB, and make the SH a spellcaster that can summon scourges like the infestor spawns infested terrans.
If ground mech sucked so hard, it wouldn't have defended everything so easily.
It could defend everything so "easily" (debatable) because terran usually turtled behind walls of turrets and pfs. A fight on open field with ground mech was pretty much suicide.
On May 17 2016 06:31 JackONeill wrote: Actually if terran played turtly in late HOTS TvZ mech, it was because ground mech sucked so hard, and that sky terran was so OP. TvZ were about terran securing a third with mass tank viking, defend the roach/hydra viper go, and then switch to air. But you could not move out, until having 6 BCs, which was stupid.
PB as you very rightly said is a stupid band aid. I'd much rather like to remove the PB, and make the SH a spellcaster that can summon scourges like the infestor spawns infested terrans.
If ground mech sucked so hard, it wouldn't have defended everything so easily.
It could defend everything so "easily" (debatable) because terran usually turtled behind walls of turrets and pfs. A fight on open field with ground mech was pretty much suicide.
So a stronger mech ground army would have prevented that? What is your suggestion? Nerfing turrets and PF?
Goody has started streaming again and he plays what i would consider true mech. He is so damn good he makes it look like BW. TvP looks impossible though.
On May 17 2016 06:31 JackONeill wrote: Actually if terran played turtly in late HOTS TvZ mech, it was because ground mech sucked so hard, and that sky terran was so OP. TvZ were about terran securing a third with mass tank viking, defend the roach/hydra viper go, and then switch to air. But you could not move out, until having 6 BCs, which was stupid.
PB as you very rightly said is a stupid band aid. I'd much rather like to remove the PB, and make the SH a spellcaster that can summon scourges like the infestor spawns infested terrans.
If ground mech sucked so hard, it wouldn't have defended everything so easily.
It could defend everything so "easily" (debatable) because terran usually turtled behind walls of turrets and pfs. A fight on open field with ground mech was pretty much suicide.
So a stronger mech ground army would have prevented that? What is your suggestion? Nerfing turrets and PF?
Stronger ground mech but much harder air transition would force mech to be active on the map to limit zerg economy to avoid being killed by broodlords
But yeah, it's so much better to have terrans forced into reaper expand => bio tankivacs or bio mines => bio liberators every single game. Diversity, fuck yeah !
On May 17 2016 06:31 JackONeill wrote: Actually if terran played turtly in late HOTS TvZ mech, it was because ground mech sucked so hard, and that sky terran was so OP. TvZ were about terran securing a third with mass tank viking, defend the roach/hydra viper go, and then switch to air. But you could not move out, until having 6 BCs, which was stupid.
PB as you very rightly said is a stupid band aid. I'd much rather like to remove the PB, and make the SH a spellcaster that can summon scourges like the infestor spawns infested terrans.
If ground mech sucked so hard, it wouldn't have defended everything so easily.
It could defend everything so "easily" (debatable) because terran usually turtled behind walls of turrets and pfs. A fight on open field with ground mech was pretty much suicide.
So a stronger mech ground army would have prevented that? What is your suggestion? Nerfing turrets and PF?
Stronger ground mech but much harder air transition would force mech to be active on the map to limit zerg economy to avoid being killed by broodlords
On May 17 2016 06:31 JackONeill wrote: Actually if terran played turtly in late HOTS TvZ mech, it was because ground mech sucked so hard, and that sky terran was so OP. TvZ were about terran securing a third with mass tank viking, defend the roach/hydra viper go, and then switch to air. But you could not move out, until having 6 BCs, which was stupid.
PB as you very rightly said is a stupid band aid. I'd much rather like to remove the PB, and make the SH a spellcaster that can summon scourges like the infestor spawns infested terrans.
If ground mech sucked so hard, it wouldn't have defended everything so easily.
It could defend everything so "easily" (debatable) because terran usually turtled behind walls of turrets and pfs. A fight on open field with ground mech was pretty much suicide.
So a stronger mech ground army would have prevented that? What is your suggestion? Nerfing turrets and PF?
Stronger ground mech but much harder air transition would force mech to be active on the map to limit zerg economy to avoid being killed by broodlords
But yeah, it's so much better to have terrans forced into reaper expand => bio tankivacs or bio mines => bio liberators every single game. Diversity, fuck yeah !
But stronger ground mech would make air transition easier at the same time because you'll have a better defensive position, so even if you make the air transition more difficult, if you buff the ground you'll even it out. At the very best, which is still unlikely imo, you'll find the sweet spot where mech game solely rely on a pre-Hive timing attack. No matter how you look at it, by design tanks as they are in Starcraft 2 will always be better for turtling than for attacking, that's why in my opinion tankivacs is a good addition to the game because it allows tanks to move out on the map without allowing turtle play.
On May 16 2016 22:28 LSN wrote: Very nice post Jack.
The game is no fun mostly. I can be fun for some time ofc.
When ppl ask me about SC2 I have to tell them that they are better off with their time with just playing some CS:GO or mobas and you need a very high frustration threshold for SC2 - even tho it is way easier than BW.
If the game was fun, why would players like grubby, hasuobs, all the koreans and many more turn their back to it and play other games on their streams?
I myself haven't had the motivation to play my bonus pool to zero in any season within 5 years of time. Not a single time. When I play the game for some weeks I need 4x as time break after.
When I watch TakeTV I see Naruto being frustrated about the game all the way. He even talks about playing CS:GO. When I watch nate playing on stream, he is so much frustrated about the game that he cant even hold it back (and I honestly watched about 30-60 minutes of him max in total). When I see big tournament casts I see that casters for their own and the games benefit hold back with their true opinions.
Guys, I don't care if you like me or hate me. Also there is no other game to ever come close to SC/SC2 RTS. We got one chance to have a decently playable RTS for the next couple of years, and that is that blizzard gets these things right.
We might want to forget about all the balance hatred here in forums and help together to make SC2 the game it should and very well could be.
One problem about this however is that there are too many voices for DK & Blizzard, I assume and I know. One issue there is, is that every kid of age 18 who reached GM by training how to be the most abusive in ladders values their own opinion higher than anyone else. Another issue is that korean pro feedback might be race biased as well. Ppl. who earn money with playing SC2 or plan to do so have a legitimate reason to talk for their own race and where they put time and effort in.
These things are obstacles for DK and Blizzard to have good decisionmaking. They want to satisfy everyone. However they can't. They don't know which voices to listen to.
Now that is something that we as a community have to get under control first. Best players not necessarily or even not at all make best game designers. I know that huge parts of the community believe this tho.
Life is a matter of focus and priorities. I believe that someone who has picked his focus to be to become the best player on earth cannot at the same time be the best game designer on earth, because it required a shift in priorities which the individual has obviously chosen not to do.
Of course there are exceptions and multitalents but these will be the rarities, and I don't want to blame anyone. However Broodwar wasn't designed by progamers. From what I know mapmakers who many ppl rightfully claim to have balanced broodwar were not the top notch players but ppl. who tried to figure out every single detail about what is important for mapping and focused mainly on that.
I am trying to be constructive here and figure out sources of failure first as any common business would do that. And with that much amount of failure that has found its way into SC2 after broodwar was the perfect way, I think it is a good idea to do that first.
If you once again make a statement of what I seemingly said to make a strong point which I would never agree on I will make sure that you will never post again here. To clarify for anyone. I believe Legacy of the Void is a great game and huge step in the right direction of Broodwar - more dynamic and a lot more but thats not really the point I want to adress here.
I simply don't play myself because I am very eager to be good. I was never good putting little time into the game but always had to grind and I simply do not want to put that kind of time into Starcraft currently as I do a hell lot of casting as well. Besides that I talked that I played CSGO which is a fantastic eSport title and simply fun to play with friends - a game which doesnt require me to play thousands of hours to feel "good".
So no - I would never go as far as LSN with his shit balance posts. So be warned LSN.
EPT
