EPTCommunity Feedback Update - May 3 - Page 2
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
He is right and I guess you should more work on the immortal nerf, because I see all the time some bioballs completely reckt with only stalkers adepts immos and some sentries. So reckt without any splash damage like disruptors, colossi or templars. That's pretty bad and unfair. You're saying that the game is unfair because upgraded, unsupported t1 is beating upgraded, unsupported t1 sometimes. There's a lot of nuance in balance but i don't see any design problem in this above statement. Why should one set of units always win? Previously the game has been balanced around units like the Colossus offsetting weaker gateway units, but the Colossus was nerfed to the ground over a year ago; this no longer holds true. Both protoss and terran have strong support units - medivac, liberator, HT etc - that they rely on as the game hits midgame and it's a reasonable design to have them somewhat equal in power both with and without support units, IMO. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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dalaiisc2
18 Posts
On May 04 2016 16:25 Cyro wrote: You're saying that the game is unfair because upgraded, unsupported t1 is beating upgraded, unsupported t1 sometimes. There's a lot of nuance in balance but i don't see any design problem in this above statement. Why should one set of units always win? Previously the game has been balanced around units like the Colossus offsetting weaker gateway units, but the Colossus was nerfed to the ground over a year ago; this no longer holds true. Both protoss and terran have strong support units - medivac, liberator, HT etc - that they rely on as the game hits midgame and it's a reasonable design to have them somewhat equal in power both with and without support units, IMO. maybe his point is not that true in tvp, but what about zvp? EVERY toss plays the same - phoenix into double robo immo + archon. and nowadays, nearly every zerg plays also the same - ling bling into hydra/lurker. back in hots and wol, the immortal was supposed to be an anti-armored unit (anti roach, anti tank). now, there are no more armored units played by zerg (atm), so whats the point of the double robo immo? RIGHT, this unit is damn powerfull, but it was never intentioned to be such a huge dmg absorber. it feels just so wrong, if the zerg goes for ling bling hydra and the toss is massing out immortals. | ||
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
Their reasoning for why we hate it though, completely off base, just because a few pros have increased the win rate slightly has nothing to do with not wanting an absurd buff. We didn't want the buff because it's absurd and doesn't fix the inherent issues plaguing the matchup. People aren't going to stop opening Stargate because of slightly better cannons, the opener is too flexible for that. Stargate helps protect against so many Zerg openers and rushes that would otherwise kill the Protoss in the early game. Drops, roach ravager pushes etc. PvZ is a mess and will be for a long time until Blizz find a way of adequately reworking Protoss early game defence vs Zerg. I'm getting kind of sick of looking at my PvP and PvT match ups sitting at 60+% while my PvZ is stuck at sub 30%. While my ZvP is at 80+% and sub 30% for ZvZ and ZvT. This is with my Protoss main and Zerg offrace being sat in gold. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On May 04 2016 13:13 Silvana wrote: another +1 what a shitty job it must be at some times Another +1 this guy can't catch a break. Buff stalker antiair to 14 flat tho  | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
ow, there are no more armored units played by zerg (atm), so whats the point of the double robo immo? Mainly because meta is hydra/lurker and playing other stuff doesn't work out that well. Gateway units get wrecked beyond belief against hydra/lurker and stargate-based armies have been repeatedly nerfed until they were not really viable in the midgame, so what else do you expect people to play? If the immortal and disruptor were removed overnight, we wouldn't see protoss switching to other styles and maintaining a 45-50% winrate. The hardened shield redesign made immortals weaker against the things that they hard countered (like siege tanks and thors) but stronger against units in general (like marines and hydralisks). This was obvious from the moment that it was announced. Stargate helps protect against so many Zerg openers and rushes that would otherwise kill the Protoss in the early game. Drops, roach ravager pushes etc. Playing stargate most PvZ's at a high master level i don't think that. If a Z tells you before the game that he's going to do one of the following: super early ling-drop overlord speed + queen ling drop roach/ravager all-in ling+baneling all-in / etcetc / whatever else i would go to 4 gateways rather than 2gate+stargate. The motivation for stargate is that it's better in the 5-10 minute window, but you have to live to 5:00 without taking large amounts of damage to get to that point. | ||
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Legobiten
71 Posts
On May 04 2016 13:33 Cascade wrote: Personally, I've said for some time that Blizzard and DK cares too much about the (vocal part of) community. "The community" is a bunch of raging bronzies that find everything they lose to OP. That can't be the basis of balance tweaks. Maybe it can influence design to make the game more fun to play, but they can't blindly follow what people shout at the forums. Imo, they should make up their own line of thinking about this and stick to that. Screw all the haters on the forums that will never be happy unless you do exactly that nonsensical change they ask for, and probably not even then. Can't do game design by community democracy, or you'll end up with Boaty McBoatface. This is what it's all about!! Please ignore the "community". The majority of the players don't write here. They just play the game and enjoy it. Blizzard and DK should obviously listen to the pros when something is broken but to hear what the "community" thinks about balance is the wrong way to go, I think. Screw the haters. There's no way to please them. A camel is a horse designed by committee (or this "community"). Do your thing DK! The game is awesome and so thinks the majority of the players, otherwise they wouldn't play. | ||
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dalaiisc2
18 Posts
On May 04 2016 16:54 Cyro wrote: Mainly because meta is hydra/lurker and playing other stuff doesn't work out that well. Gateway units get wrecked beyond belief against hydra/lurker and stargate-based armies have been repeatedly nerfed until they were not really viable in the midgame, so what else do you expect people to play? If the immortal and disruptor were removed overnight, we wouldn't see protoss switching to other styles and maintaining a 45-50% winrate. The hardened shield redesign made immortals weaker against the things that they hard countered (like siege tanks and thors) but stronger against units in general (like marines and hydralisks). This was obvious from the moment that it was announced. i do not have much knowlegde about tvp. but vs zerg, one the paper, the immortal was never good against ling or hydras cuz of relatively low dps and higher numbers of ling/hydra. maybe toss would find a solution in going fast ht or such things, i duno. gate units + ht was always a good alternative to the almighty deathball with colossi. imo, immortals atm are just to well-rounded. you can play them vs anything and that shouldnt be the case for a non-gateway unit. its btw the same problem with the liberator for me. its just to well-rounded. liberators kill every air and CAN kill every ground with ease. this shouldnt be the case and thats why im rly looking forward to the patch. adepts are also something to look onto. the early game harrass is just to good. maybe a higher cd for the shade would absolutely solve it, but i dont wanna whine about toss to much here ;D | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
i do not have much knowlegde about tvp. but vs zerg, one the paper, the immortal was never good against ling or hydras cuz of relatively low dps and higher numbers of ling/hydra. The Immortal has more DPS against light units than the Stalker does, it's always been that way. On paper they're similar against light units but the immortal is like a marine in that it doesn't waste any damage. Wasting damage is a massive weakness of the stalker because of their large size (can't fit many into a small space) and medium ROF projectile based attack. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
On May 04 2016 16:27 insitelol wrote: Maybe, yes. Since the patch was pretty hefty and I didn't want it to happen – especially with Dreamhack just around the corner!Am i the only one who finds this hilarious? To the people yelling DK shouldn't listen to plebs: 1) Plebs keep the game alive, and 2) I'm shure they can weigh different voices accordingly. | ||
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Legobiten
71 Posts
On May 04 2016 17:08 Jj_82 wrote: Maybe, yes. Since the patch was pretty hefty and I didn't want it to happen – especially with Dreamhack just around the corner! To the people yelling DK shouldn't listen to plebs: 1) Plebs keep the game alive, and 2) I'm shure they can weigh different voices accordingly. But plebs don't have one voice and overall they lack game knowledge (me included). That's why it's impossible to listen to them regarding such advanced things as balance. Chaos, that's what you get. | ||
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
On May 04 2016 17:15 Legobiten wrote: No, data is what you get. And a feel. That's two pretty important things.But plebs don't have one voice and overall they lack game knowledge (me included). That's why it's impossible to listen to them regarding such advanced things as balance. Chaos, that's what you get. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3553 Posts
This whole community helping design the game, makes it feel as though we're dating David Kim. Are we the nagging wife disabling David from fulfilling his dreams? It's good that they listen, but perhaps they should also get to do their job and actually be able to push a patch through.. | ||
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
People complain -> make a patch. Now the mad people are happy they get a patch and won't complain. Now the people who don't want a patch complain -> cancle patch. Rinse and repeat forever | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 04 2016 17:20 Jj_82 wrote: No, data is what you get. And a feel. That's two pretty important things. Yeah they shouldn't ignore what's going on on the forums. But that doesn't mean they should blindly follow what is being shouted out by the vocal community members either. They have to be able to go "yeah, we know you don't like to play against X, and that you want to nerf X, but we don't think that'd work out well, so we will buff Y instead, even though the community doesn't like that." | ||
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Squaal
11 Posts
Protoss: - reduce AA damage of overcharged pylones (weaken phoenix opening since phoenix defend everything with lifting units in front of pylones/canons) - nerf disruptors damage (to 120 for instance or /2 against burried units) - remove detection from oracle tag or make it a lot shorter - warp prism: reduce pick-up range, put a timer on warp and maximize warp-in to 8 supply with upgrade to 16 on bay. Zerg: - swarmhost possible new design: when burried: creates a locust (hp/dps to determine) every 20 seconds. Locusts die when the SH unburries. Maximum 3 living locusts at a time. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Protoss: - reduce AA damage of overcharged pylones (weaken phoenix opening since phoenix defend everything with lifting units in front of pylones/canons) You have this completely backwards if you think that reducing overcharge damage vs air units will weaken oracle/phoenix openings. Overcharge has 4.2x the DPS and 1.167x the range of stalkers vs light air units and is the first line of defense against them | ||
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