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Community Feedback Update - May 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
88 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Fecalfeast
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada11355 Posts
May 03 2016 23:18 GMT
#1
thread

nobody else made a thread so if someone who normally does these wants to hijack it idc

Hey everyone. We wanted to issue a community feedback update early this week after seeing your feedback around the planned patch we were going to apply today. After reading your feedback, it seemed pretty clear that there is not much support for the proposed changes, so we decided to cancel this week’s balance update and get into more details of what’s happening because community feedback around the changes seems to have changed completely this week. Just a couple weeks ago when we started testing the latest changes, the perception seemed very positive. However, this week, what we’re seeing is completely different. We have some guesses as to why this happened as well as some proposals on how to improve our process going forward, but let’s talk about the specific changes.

Protoss Buff vs. Mutalisks
Previously, this topic seemed to be clearly important to the community, but it seems to have completely changed the other way. Even though Mutalisks are clearly not an issue at the top of pro level, we believed it was a heavy community issue, so we located a change that would have minimal impact at the pro lvl, while looking to help the average skilled player.

We’re not exactly sure why the major switch happened here, but we wonder if a lot of it is the meta game having shifted from Protoss being underpowered against Zerg to the matchup being a lot more even than we initially believed.

Other changes

The other changes we believe are more straight forward. Like many of you point out, we probably didn’t have enough testing time on the other changes and we should gather more feedback over the next week or two before committing to these changes.

Also, there seemed to be less of an understanding as to why we have been moving the way we have with testing out different changes. We wonder if many players out there are getting left behind or stuck in an old line of thinking while another group has moved on. We believe this creates a lot of confusion, and we believe this is a major flaw in our current process which we would like to improve going forward.

Communication Process Improvements
There are a few things that we think we can improve.

First, we believe we can be more proactive about gauging the community’s stance on specific topics. At regular intervals, we would like to begin asking you guys if we are hearing you correctly. This will allow us to double check and make sure there hasn’t been a major change in what the community wants, or that we’re not misunderstanding you.

Second, we can do better on providing a “post-mortem” for our Balance Test Map changes to analyze which changes were effective or not effective. This should also help us keep moving at a similar pace in terms of reasoning.

Third, we will try to be more concise with our messaging to be as clear as possible. Because we tried to get into every detail of every reasoning, we believe this caused some confusion due to how much information we were giving in such short time periods. Instead, we would like to do more updates every week, but each update will be smaller with less details to help with this issue.

If there are more suggestions here, we can definitely look into further improvements to our current process. Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, we’ll have more to discuss as the week continues.

Next Balance Patch
We will have more details coming later this week, and a new test map up early the week after. We are definitely aiming for around 5/22 ~ 5/23 to solidify many of the changes to patch to the live game so let's stay focused both on discussions as well as playtesting as soon as the test map is up early next week. We're pushing very hard on this front not just on the community side but working very heavily with the pro players as well to nail this down.

Besides the issues we're currently working through, the other issues we're currently thinking on are: potential immortal nerfs due to heavy pro player feedback around this being an absolute necessity, potential colossus buffs, and Cyclone changes.
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Gwavajuice
Profile Joined June 2014
France1810 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-03 23:32:04
May 03 2016 23:28 GMT
#2
Poor DK.

(edit : hellbat liberator banshee still has 2 more weeks to live, yeah!)
Dear INno and all the former STX boys.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
May 03 2016 23:36 GMT
#3
We've been talking about it here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/508334-upcoming-balance-update-may-3rd

Maybe SGTK can just update the OP there?
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10673 Posts
May 03 2016 23:53 GMT
#4
Wait so the patch is being pushed back?
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-04 00:38:39
May 04 2016 00:28 GMT
#5
It's almost like he's just reading through reddit posts and TL threads and is surprised that feedback differs. There are one million different opinions, the community will never have 'One true voice.'

Sector 1 - Design, the best thing he can do is play a lot, and listen to the community to what isnt fun and what is really fun, for both players in the game mind you. (a lot of things in SC currently are fun for one user, but makes other user wanna quit).

Sector 2 - Balance - tweaking units stats and things that impact gameplay immidiately, he's best off listening to Kespa pros only. (The highest level).

The bio air buff to cannons is something that is trying to adress sector 1 with a tool from sector 2. This doesn't work.

The change to liberator air stems from a particular maru game vs leenock game a long time ago, zerg has adapted and moved past the problem. Things are very much up in the air right now - the only thing that should be nerfed or removed is the liberator range. (But this is a sympton of bad design- can end games instantly much like oracles, nydusses,).

the 2 sectors are very overlapping, but David Kim is unable to change design things - so he is completly lost and lacks the tools to fix core problems in my opinion.

We need changes to make gameplay more fun for both players a lot more than we need these tiny balance tweaks. And I have the feeling that David Kim is not the person who can make those changes. And I doubt they will ever happen.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-04 01:29:31
May 04 2016 01:29 GMT
#6
quoting from bnet forum

Fix the mutalisk

It has a lot of effect on high level PvZ games even if it's not seen often, it creates a lot of pressure to play stargate even if other styles are stronger against other zerg units and aggression (such as ling drop, ling+queen overlord speed drop and ravager all-ins). You'll see protoss playing with a stargate quite early and using it to support double robo immortal in many pro PvZ's because you cannot play that kind of style safely without a stargate

Having static defense for 2 of the 3 races be buffed specifically against bio-air for mutalisk is a bad band-aid fix. I think here that the mutalisk was overbuffed in early HOTS (adding speed and quadrupling regeneration) and we're still seeing the fallout from that. Counters have been (or will be) buffed to be overpowered to get back on the same level. This doesn't just include the +bio air on 2 races static defense, but also units like the widow mine and liberator splash anti air. Without muta being so powerful you can tone down those things and still see a lot of play.

We saw the most mutalisk play in WOL where the mutalisk was a lot weaker but these "OP-counters" didn't exist or need to exist to stabilize the matchups.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Comedy
Profile Joined March 2016
456 Posts
May 04 2016 02:08 GMT
#7
I agree with you, if you also list phoenix with range in the list with liberator, and remove widow mine, but add thor auto-targetting air which was one of the saddest updates of all time to me.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
May 04 2016 02:11 GMT
#8
Phoenix range predates the mutalisk buffs - it was implemented first because protoss as a race was specifically weaker to air-light units than zerg and terran. Still +1 on the list
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
weiliem
Profile Joined January 2008
2071 Posts
May 04 2016 02:40 GMT
#9
Immortal nerf! Finally...
Oppa feeding style
Kiwan
Profile Joined October 2011
Australia36 Posts
May 04 2016 03:23 GMT
#10
On May 04 2016 08:28 Gwavajuice wrote:
Poor DK.

(edit : hellbat liberator banshee still has 2 more weeks to live, yeah!)


+1 to poor DK
MonkeyBot
Profile Joined June 2013
United States125 Posts
May 04 2016 03:54 GMT
#11
It's pretty big of blizzard to cancel even testing these changes due to community feedback. Promising for communication, but I hope this isn't a pattern of some community members thinking they can bully Blizzard into (or away from) anything.

Looking forward to the communication changes too!
Silvana
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
3713 Posts
May 04 2016 04:13 GMT
#12
On May 04 2016 12:23 Kiwan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2016 08:28 Gwavajuice wrote:
Poor DK.

(edit : hellbat liberator banshee still has 2 more weeks to live, yeah!)


+1 to poor DK


another +1

what a shitty job it must be at some times
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
May 04 2016 04:33 GMT
#13
Personally, I've said for some time that Blizzard and DK cares too much about the (vocal part of) community. "The community" is a bunch of raging bronzies that find everything they lose to OP. That can't be the basis of balance tweaks. Maybe it can influence design to make the game more fun to play, but they can't blindly follow what people shout at the forums.

Imo, they should make up their own line of thinking about this and stick to that. Screw all the haters on the forums that will never be happy unless you do exactly that nonsensical change they ask for, and probably not even then. Can't do game design by community democracy, or you'll end up with Boaty McBoatface.
RichardNPL
Profile Joined November 2015
185 Posts
May 04 2016 04:38 GMT
#14
haha we did it! no more liberator nerf!
ecnahc
Profile Joined January 2010
United States395 Posts
May 04 2016 04:45 GMT
#15
I already posted something similiar in the other thread but I want to echo my thoughts here regardless.

DK you and your team are obviously great designers so give yourselves some credit and don't listen to the whiners on the forums. You have already set up the avenues for balance feedback at the pro level so there's no need to crowdsource your design from the vocal minority. People will always play SC2 so just do what you guys do best and make it fun.
inside a cloud of resentment and vanity
Asturas
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Finland587 Posts
May 04 2016 04:57 GMT
#16
oh my... it happened! DK made me happy

As @Cascade wrote, I am a "raging bronzie" (ok, Platinum, but it's just shiny Bronze :D ), but I like to believe that LotV has best balance in whole SC2 history. And I judge it based on what I see on streams, not on my own "bronzie" games.

This patch that was planned for 3 May was imo useless in general and not very well thought in some parts. Probably this is the first time in history of SC2 that I really don't have anything that I would like to be changed (ok, maybe I would like to see complete, 100% redesign of Protoss race ). Of course pro gamers, they know better, so changes will occur.

In the meantime, tomorrow there is Overwatch BETA, and during the weekend I will try to become better at SC2 :D
There are no boundaries, that's the final conclusion.
Nazara
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
United Kingdom235 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-04 05:21:12
May 04 2016 05:13 GMT
#17
So now DK is blaming the community for no action on pvz muta issue. Even though on almost all forums (even bnet) people explain again and again why cannon buff is terrible and plain stupid, so DK ignores it and dismisses the whole matter.
There never was any switch, it's just as if any post with "muta regen/speed" in it was skipped by the devs.
What a bunch of pr bullshit.

Yes, their patch was horrible, good call it didn't make it. But God, their patching process is slow and clueless.
They are fixing issues in completely wrong areas. Cannon +bio buff? And he seriously wonders why community doesn't want this kind of balance?
bObA
Profile Joined May 2012
France300 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-04 05:40:31
May 04 2016 05:40 GMT
#18
I cannot understand the patch supposed to be active today and I think this back up is really smart from David Kim.

What I know for sure is what TY said in the interview before his GSL final against Zest :

" I am sorry to say that but I want to be honest : protoss is really imba "

He is right and I guess you should more work on the immortal nerf, because I see all the time some bioballs completely reckt with only stalkers adepts immos and some sentries.
So reckt without any splash damage like disruptors, colossi or templars.
That's pretty bad and unfair.
Immortals have to be nerfed since marauders suck so much since they have been nerfed at the beginning of LOTV.

And really I do not understand all the last proposed changes.




KonanTenshi
Profile Joined June 2012
Sweden210 Posts
May 04 2016 06:04 GMT
#19
instead of nerfing that and nerfing this perhaps they should simply buff stuff? Buff the marauder if it's weak.
Buff the other potentials of zerg arsenal so the protoss have to worry about them instead of blind counter the mutalisk?
Personally I'd like to see a bigger change in unit composition, make more composition available for all races... LotV feels very stale for me at the current state.
Curious
KT_Elwood
Profile Joined July 2015
Germany942 Posts
May 04 2016 06:34 GMT
#20
Maybe DK should step down. He got shit for every patch, and every non patch and everything for kind of long now.
There has to be someone who balances the game against the will and Opinion of at least 50% of all players and live through it. Eventually most patches led to the game we have now, wich is pretty balanced.
(Even if Protoss and Terran are kind if boring to play, wich is a design choice and not a 100% balance issue)

If you don't have Zest level, you should not worry about Protoss being imba. Just Mass Liberators and be "hard to engage".
"First he eats our dogs, and then he taxes the penguins... Donald Trump truly is the Donald Trump of our generation. " -DPB
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