• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:01
CEST 12:01
KST 19:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy3Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3
Community News
Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)8BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13
StarCraft 2
General
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) How herO can make history in the Code S S2 finals Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
Recent recommended BW games BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 3
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 26338 users

Flash on DeepMind: "I think I can win" - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
usopsama
Profile Joined April 2008
6502 Posts
March 10 2016 15:00 GMT
#21
Computers may be able to defeat humans, but computers cannot defeat God.
Monochromatic
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
United States997 Posts
March 10 2016 15:00 GMT
#22
This is a pretty interesting proposition. I think it depends on how much google will let the ai go beyond human capabilities. There already exist stupid micro ai, and if google lets the ai micro flawlessly it shouldn't be a contest. Of course, if they limit it to human capabilities (Like a hard cap of 400 APM) , then I think a human will always have the ablity to win.
MC: "Guys I need your support! iam poor make me nerd baller" __________________________________________RIP Violet
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-10 15:06:47
March 10 2016 15:03 GMT
#23
On March 10 2016 23:57 WiSaGaN wrote:
I don't think this will become a strategy game.
It is more likely that the impeccable micro attack will just dominate the game.
How will Flash counter a perfect Drone hit-and-run?

well, the same can be said about harassment by top terrans. how can you counter it? have vision, see it coming and have enough to fight it. even if the mechanics are "perfect," in sc2 not every fight is won by micro, and the kinds of micro that are important (casters, lurker positions etc.) are often quite difficult for AIs to grasp.

it's a fascinating experiment. no one is saying it will be the same as human 1v1. but how can you not be intrigued by the challenge? it's science!

On March 11 2016 00:00 Monochromatic wrote:
This is a pretty interesting proposition. I think it depends on how much google will let the ai go beyond human capabilities. There already exist stupid micro ai, and if google lets the ai micro flawlessly it shouldn't be a contest. Of course, if they limit it to human capabilities (Like a hard cap of 400 APM) , then I think a human will always have the ablity to win.

i think that even an AI with perfect mechanics has the capability to fail strategically by allocating its resources poorly. if it's spending 800 APM on making an overlord patrol in the corner of the map (and i've seen SC2 AI do things like this), APM isn't the issue. as long as it's not "cheater AI" with vision or extra resources it should be a very interesting idea.

i definitely see what you are saying, but there are a lot of nuances to this concept
TL+ Member
etofok
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
138 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-10 15:08:16
March 10 2016 15:06 GMT
#24
Of course, if they limit it to human capabilities (Like a hard cap of 400 APM)


I guess AI doesn't need to "check" every second x different keybinds, it should be drastically more efficient with its APM allocation. I'd rather limit cursor movement speed, so the AI can't micro completely unrealistically, but at "human" speed. However even with this limitation the AI will be more efficient with its decisions of "what exactly to prioritize" given sufficient amount of practice time.
The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey?
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
March 10 2016 15:08 GMT
#25
oh, cool! Wouldn't mind working on that project.
Temporary Happiness
Profile Joined March 2016
Italy11 Posts
March 10 2016 15:11 GMT
#26
I think these 2 videos tell who's gonna win if this is done in Sc2:





When opponent microes like that there is no room for outplay him strategically i think..
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
March 10 2016 15:11 GMT
#27
Following the go match a little bit right now i alreay asked myself what would happen in real time games like starcraft.
Perfect mechanics alone would allow for mediocre strategy to win games i would imagine.
Interesting for sure!
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 10 2016 15:27 GMT
#28
On March 11 2016 00:11 Temporary Happiness wrote:
I think these 2 videos tell who's gonna win if this is done in Sc2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrbYd4OFrWE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVFZ28ybQs

When opponent microes like that there is no room for outplay him strategically i think..

That second video is fucking glorious, the zerglings abandoning the targeted ling to its fate to avoid splash is soooo Zerg
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-10 15:29:55
March 10 2016 15:28 GMT
#29
I Believe it would be hard for humans to keep winning, perfectly microed units is enough to basically guarantee success. Imagine harassing a computer that pulls probes perfectly as soon as your Oracle/mutas/dropship is in vision. Perfectly microes every individual probe for example.

I Believe a super safe opening into blink stalkers would win against almost anything, imagine perfect blink Micro, perfect macro and just retreat and regenerate Shields when needed. AI could split perfectly against aoe, split their army up perfectly and on top of that Micro and macro perfectly. Lets be honest if you can Micro perfectly there are many ways to guarantee the game, reapers against zerg early game, stalkers against terran when they have only marines or at least pre conc Shells. This is barely a discussion, Flash can win now but he can't win forever.

Realized I automatically was thinking sc2, I don't think the arguement is decently valid for sc1 as well though.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
March 10 2016 15:35 GMT
#30
In the end it is a fight of strategy against 10.000 apm.

Even if you would limit the apm, the computer can do inhuman things. Thats the difference between a Board Game and a RTS, where your input is extremly minimal while your strategy is maximised. A AI that learned enough to be strategically on pair with very decent players, will always win thanks to the unlimited multitasks and inputs.

And oh yeah, what Flash is saying here, that was also said by the best GO player in the world. He thought just some quick 1M $ to win, computer will never beat him. Now he has lost 2 out of 2 games so far.
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19224 Posts
March 10 2016 15:42 GMT
#31
(Z)hero can operate at about 450-500 apm on a consistent basis. To make this fair, the actions per minute should be clamped to <=600
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
WiSaGaN
Profile Joined July 2006
203 Posts
March 10 2016 15:47 GMT
#32
On March 11 2016 00:42 BisuDagger wrote:
(Z)hero can operate at about 450-500 apm on a consistent basis. To make this fair, the actions per minute should be clamped to <=600

That looks like some interesting proposal.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
March 10 2016 16:00 GMT
#33
On March 11 2016 00:47 WiSaGaN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2016 00:42 BisuDagger wrote:
(Z)hero can operate at about 450-500 apm on a consistent basis. To make this fair, the actions per minute should be clamped to <=600

That looks like some interesting proposal.

It is more like you should allow the engine 200apm. An engine will know to not waste actions, while most of what hero does is spamming. You can split marines perfectly with 600 apm I'm pretty sure, allowing the engine 10000apm won't make that much difference.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-10 16:06:50
March 10 2016 16:04 GMT
#34
On March 11 2016 00:42 BisuDagger wrote:
(Z)hero can operate at about 450-500 apm on a consistent basis. To make this fair, the actions per minute should be clamped to <=600


That would make things "more fair", but the reaction time of the machine will still be 0ms, will the human players has a reaction time.

I dont think it is possible to make a "fair" battle between humans and programms in Starcraft, as Starcraft has not only its strategic part, but its mechanical part. When a Car drives 100m faster then Mr. Bolt, we would also call that unfair.

The computer is a self learning A.I. in this case. As soon the computer finds out, that he will win with his stellar micro, he will go for a SCV rush every game.

We are also not talking about some programm running your local Core 2.

Deep thought is a neural network based on a supercomputer. It constantly became better by playing itself, the same would apply to Starcraft. At the moment the machine finds out, that humans cant micro like the machine can, the machine uses its stellar micro to win.
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
algue
Profile Joined July 2011
France1436 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-10 16:15:51
March 10 2016 16:10 GMT
#35
If the AI is godlike and reacts as soon as an ennemy unit shows a single pixel there isn't much a human can do. As long as the Ai can out micro and out macro the human, strategic thinking won't bring much to the table in a RTS like starcraft.

However it'd be cool if Google built a robot with hands and eyes to give him the same restraints as the player. Idk if it's feasible but the AI could only see what the robot eyes see and the robot would have to hit the keyboard to make things happen instead of just making them happen out of nowhere like current AIs do. It'd be a nice challenge for robot builders to build humanoid robot that can beat a starcraft players with equal weapons (Keyboard + Mouse)
rly ?
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15913 Posts
March 10 2016 16:13 GMT
#36
On March 11 2016 00:11 Temporary Happiness wrote:
I think these 2 videos tell who's gonna win if this is done in Sc2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrbYd4OFrWE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVFZ28ybQs

When opponent microes like that there is no room for outplay him strategically i think..

There are compositions where you can't micro that much for example roach vs roach zvz or roach ravager vs bio.
In those situations perfect micro doesnt give you that much of an advantage.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
beg
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
991 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-10 16:17:14
March 10 2016 16:16 GMT
#37
On March 11 2016 01:13 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2016 00:11 Temporary Happiness wrote:
I think these 2 videos tell who's gonna win if this is done in Sc2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrbYd4OFrWE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVFZ28ybQs

When opponent microes like that there is no room for outplay him strategically i think..

There are compositions where you can't micro that much for example roach vs roach zvz or roach ravager vs bio.
In those situations perfect micro doesnt give you that much of an advantage.

Imagine 50 roaches, individually microed to create a perfect arc, pulling back before they die and burrowing, joining the battle again after regenerating.

Yea... no :D
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15913 Posts
March 10 2016 16:18 GMT
#38
BTW a bot that plays starcraft perfectly already exists.
It's called INnoVation.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 10 2016 16:19 GMT
#39
On March 11 2016 01:16 beg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2016 01:13 Charoisaur wrote:
On March 11 2016 00:11 Temporary Happiness wrote:
I think these 2 videos tell who's gonna win if this is done in Sc2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrbYd4OFrWE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVFZ28ybQs

When opponent microes like that there is no room for outplay him strategically i think..

There are compositions where you can't micro that much for example roach vs roach zvz or roach ravager vs bio.
In those situations perfect micro doesnt give you that much of an advantage.

Imagine 50 roaches, individually microed to create a perfect arc, pulling back before they die and burrowing, joining the battle again after regenerating.

Yea... no :D

I'm orgasming at that thought
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Grizvok
Profile Joined August 2014
United States711 Posts
March 10 2016 16:20 GMT
#40
On March 10 2016 23:36 Pandemona wrote:
Yea, i think AI would struggle in an RTS game. Yet i am still open to be surprised. Imagine God losing a bw series to an AI !!!


No way. After they become sophisticated enough it would crush a human.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 59m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
OGKoka 228
ProTech55
MindelVK 23
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 779
Hyuk 736
ToSsGirL 343
Killer 237
Zeus 180
EffOrt 180
Mini 154
Nal_rA 139
Leta 131
JulyZerg 125
[ Show more ]
PianO 100
sorry 66
Rush 42
GoRush 39
zelot 23
Barracks 20
Yoon 15
Noble 9
HiyA 9
Dewaltoss 7
ivOry 6
Hm[arnc] 6
SilentControl 2
Dota 2
420jenkins500
XcaliburYe494
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K881
shoxiejesuss835
allub0
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0432
Other Games
singsing870
Happy552
ceh9473
Nina139
XaKoH 86
QueenE24
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream3565
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream3542
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 38
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 35
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2119
League of Legends
• Stunt685
Other Games
• Scarra1408
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
59m
HiGhDrA vs Nicoract
MaNa vs HiGhDrA
HiGhDrA vs Reynor
Nicoract vs Reynor
MaNa vs Nicoract
MaNa vs Reynor
MaxPax vs Spirit
Krystianer vs Spirit
OSC
2h 59m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
8h 59m
Korean StarCraft League
16h 59m
SOOP
22h 59m
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
23h 59m
WardiTV Invitational
1d
Cheesadelphia
1d 4h
CSO Cup
1d 6h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 7h
Hawk vs UltrA
Sziky vs spx
TerrOr vs JDConan
[ Show More ]
GSL Code S
1d 21h
Rogue vs herO
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 23h
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
4 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.