EPTFlash on DeepMind: "I think I can win" - Page 2
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Monochromatic
United States1000 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On March 10 2016 23:57 WiSaGaN wrote: I don't think this will become a strategy game. It is more likely that the impeccable micro attack will just dominate the game. How will Flash counter a perfect Drone hit-and-run? well, the same can be said about harassment by top terrans. how can you counter it? have vision, see it coming and have enough to fight it. even if the mechanics are "perfect," in sc2 not every fight is won by micro, and the kinds of micro that are important (casters, lurker positions etc.) are often quite difficult for AIs to grasp. it's a fascinating experiment. no one is saying it will be the same as human 1v1. but how can you not be intrigued by the challenge? it's science! On March 11 2016 00:00 Monochromatic wrote: This is a pretty interesting proposition. I think it depends on how much google will let the ai go beyond human capabilities. There already exist stupid micro ai, and if google lets the ai micro flawlessly it shouldn't be a contest. Of course, if they limit it to human capabilities (Like a hard cap of 400 APM) , then I think a human will always have the ablity to win. i think that even an AI with perfect mechanics has the capability to fail strategically by allocating its resources poorly. if it's spending 800 APM on making an overlord patrol in the corner of the map (and i've seen SC2 AI do things like this), APM isn't the issue. as long as it's not "cheater AI" with vision or extra resources it should be a very interesting idea. i definitely see what you are saying, but there are a lot of nuances to this concept | ||
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etofok
138 Posts
Of course, if they limit it to human capabilities (Like a hard cap of 400 APM) I guess AI doesn't need to "check" every second x different keybinds, it should be drastically more efficient with its APM allocation. I'd rather limit cursor movement speed, so the AI can't micro completely unrealistically, but at "human" speed. However even with this limitation the AI will be more efficient with its decisions of "what exactly to prioritize" given sufficient amount of practice time. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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Temporary Happiness
Italy11 Posts
When opponent microes like that there is no room for outplay him strategically i think.. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Perfect mechanics alone would allow for mediocre strategy to win games i would imagine. Interesting for sure! | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On March 11 2016 00:11 Temporary Happiness wrote: I think these 2 videos tell who's gonna win if this is done in Sc2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrbYd4OFrWE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVFZ28ybQs When opponent microes like that there is no room for outplay him strategically i think.. That second video is fucking glorious, the zerglings abandoning the targeted ling to its fate to avoid splash is soooo Zerg | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
I Believe a super safe opening into blink stalkers would win against almost anything, imagine perfect blink Micro, perfect macro and just retreat and regenerate Shields when needed. AI could split perfectly against aoe, split their army up perfectly and on top of that Micro and macro perfectly. Lets be honest if you can Micro perfectly there are many ways to guarantee the game, reapers against zerg early game, stalkers against terran when they have only marines or at least pre conc Shells. This is barely a discussion, Flash can win now but he can't win forever. Realized I automatically was thinking sc2, I don't think the arguement is decently valid for sc1 as well though. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Even if you would limit the apm, the computer can do inhuman things. Thats the difference between a Board Game and a RTS, where your input is extremly minimal while your strategy is maximised. A AI that learned enough to be strategically on pair with very decent players, will always win thanks to the unlimited multitasks and inputs. And oh yeah, what Flash is saying here, that was also said by the best GO player in the world. He thought just some quick 1M $ to win, computer will never beat him. Now he has lost 2 out of 2 games so far. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19385 Posts
 hero can operate at about 450-500 apm on a consistent basis. To make this fair, the actions per minute should be clamped to <=600 | ||
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WiSaGaN
203 Posts
On March 11 2016 00:42 BisuDagger wrote: hero can operate at about 450-500 apm on a consistent basis. To make this fair, the actions per minute should be clamped to <=600That looks like some interesting proposal. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
It is more like you should allow the engine 200apm. An engine will know to not waste actions, while most of what hero does is spamming. You can split marines perfectly with 600 apm I'm pretty sure, allowing the engine 10000apm won't make that much difference. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On March 11 2016 00:42 BisuDagger wrote: hero can operate at about 450-500 apm on a consistent basis. To make this fair, the actions per minute should be clamped to <=600That would make things "more fair", but the reaction time of the machine will still be 0ms, will the human players has a reaction time. I dont think it is possible to make a "fair" battle between humans and programms in Starcraft, as Starcraft has not only its strategic part, but its mechanical part. When a Car drives 100m faster then Mr. Bolt, we would also call that unfair. The computer is a self learning A.I. in this case. As soon the computer finds out, that he will win with his stellar micro, he will go for a SCV rush every game. We are also not talking about some programm running your local Core 2. Deep thought is a neural network based on a supercomputer. It constantly became better by playing itself, the same would apply to Starcraft. At the moment the machine finds out, that humans cant micro like the machine can, the machine uses its stellar micro to win. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
However it'd be cool if Google built a robot with hands and eyes to give him the same restraints as the player. Idk if it's feasible but the AI could only see what the robot eyes see and the robot would have to hit the keyboard to make things happen instead of just making them happen out of nowhere like current AIs do. It'd be a nice challenge for robot builders to build humanoid robot that can beat a starcraft players with equal weapons (Keyboard + Mouse) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16090 Posts
On March 11 2016 00:11 Temporary Happiness wrote: I think these 2 videos tell who's gonna win if this is done in Sc2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrbYd4OFrWE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVFZ28ybQs When opponent microes like that there is no room for outplay him strategically i think.. There are compositions where you can't micro that much for example roach vs roach zvz or roach ravager vs bio. In those situations perfect micro doesnt give you that much of an advantage. | ||
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beg
991 Posts
On March 11 2016 01:13 Charoisaur wrote: There are compositions where you can't micro that much for example roach vs roach zvz or roach ravager vs bio. In those situations perfect micro doesnt give you that much of an advantage. Imagine 50 roaches, individually microed to create a perfect arc, pulling back before they die and burrowing, joining the battle again after regenerating. Yea... no :D | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16090 Posts
It's called INnoVation. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On March 11 2016 01:16 beg wrote: Imagine 50 roaches, individually microed to create a perfect arc, pulling back before they die and burrowing, joining the battle again after regenerating. Yea... no :D I'm orgasming at that thought | ||
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Grizvok
United States711 Posts
On March 10 2016 23:36 Pandemona wrote: Yea, i think AI would struggle in an RTS game. Yet i am still open to be surprised. Imagine God losing a bw series to an AI !!! No way. After they become sophisticated enough it would crush a human. | ||
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