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On February 27 2016 21:51 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Cyclone = 3 supply 120 HP
Tempest = 4 supply 450 HP
TVP is horrible, first open with mass phoenix adepts than once the tempests + storm are done its gg
Marines have something like 5 times the dps per supply compared to tempests. Is it meaningful to just juxtapose numbers like that?
The tempest is a long range unit, that is its concept and main advantage and the other stats are derived from this. You want the unit to be able go off independently and cause a nuisance (somewhat akin to guardians in brood war whom they resemble). But unlike guardians they can target air units. Therefore they can not have high damage, because range and damage strengthen each other in certain situations to create undesirable effects, because otherwise they would have no direct counter. High health is a compromise to ensure the unit's cost effectiveness in a generic battle. Furthermore, health scales differently than damage to the point that an exceedingly high amount of health on a unit with low damage generally target last is unlikely to cause severe imbalance because if you have enough marines left over they will die regardless. etc.
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Would it be crazy to decrease the Liberator anti ground damage so it doesn't one shot a hydra and two shot a stalker? They could give it like slightly faster attack speed to compensate, or a bonus against massive so they still wreck ultras (and archons, collossus, thors).
It would be cool if protoss didn't HAVE to get tempests to counter those things. And Zerg is also forced to get... mass corruptors or ravagers?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Some people in this thread don't remember some crucial changes from WoL - HotS.
E.g. they want nefring Oracles detection. Sure, nerfing the taging seems logical until you realize it is a detection. And, well, once you nerf detection of stargate the only usable detection left is observer again. That was a major issue in WoL and that's why they added a detecting unit from SG 
So if you say "nerf the tagging of Oracle!" say #2 too - solve the detection problem for protoss.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
^Yeah that's a big thing. Revelation rework was a detection nerf in the early game and a detection buff in the lategame.
It would be cool if protoss didn't HAVE to get tempests to counter those things.
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On February 29 2016 20:59 Thecatsme0w wrote:Here's a list of units/abilities that I think need to at least be looked at, and some possible solutions: + Show Spoiler +Zerg
Banelings: Reduce gas cost slightly (by 5?). There's less gas on the map to work with, more minerals. Marines are still just as easy to pump out, lings and banes are harder with larva change and less gas overall to work with.
Ravager: Corrosive Bile needs a longer cooldown, possible nerf/realloaction of damage.
Lurker: Damage slightly decreased.
Infestor: Revert/speed up fungal growth cast to make dealing with mass Phoenix/Chargelots/Blink Stalkers easier. When was the last time anyone landed a "money" fungal? It just doesn't happen to fast units. Infestors are nearly useless ATM for anything but in late game situations with Ultras. They provide almost zero utility to help you get there, though.
Nydus: Remove invulnerability while building, replace with heavy armor. Reduce cost of exit Nyduses.
Corruptor: Add + damage to massive to combat Tempests and Carriers. Possibly introduce an upgrade of some kind for Corruptors to make them faster/stronger in some way.
Terran:
Reaper: Decrease damage from 10 to 5 on KD8 Mine. Mass reapers are simply too strong early game TvZ.
Cyclone: Complete overhaul.
Orbital Command: Put a cooldown on OC's for casting mules, or limit the number of mules allowed on each mineral base. Mules continue to overly compensate for bad/damaged economies, for a race that is primarily mineral driven. OC's allow bailing out bad macro with spamming mules, allow instant supply block freeing, and scan anywhere on the map. For free. Zerg Lairs/Hives have no utility abilities.
Tanks: Allow pick up of tank in seige mode, drops in tank mode. Slight damage increase.
Liberators: Defender mode area should be smaller, they zone out too big of an area when massed. Flying attack should be nerfed slightly, and buffed slightly vs armored. Liberator speed should be nerfed slightly.
Banshee: Lower speed upgrade slightly.
Turrets: Lower damage vs. Bio slightly. Between mines, Turrets, and Liberators, Mutalisks are almost incapable of entering a Terran base.
Ghosts: Steady targeting is too strong. Aiming time/energy cost needs to be increased, or damage decreased.
Protoss:
Twilight Council: Charge and Blink seem too accessible early on, and both enable extremely powerful all ins from Toss. Maybe an increase in research time, or build time for the structure.
Disrupter: Purification Nova needs a change. Too much damage. Possibly make the casting time lower to decrease the range? Or increase it to give the opposing player more time to react/split units. .5 seconds would go a long way here in either direction.
High Templar: Reduce storm damage slightly.
Tempest:Reduce range or damage slightly. Increase Supply Cost to 6.
Oracle: Revelation duration needs to be reduced (60 seconds of eyes on your army is a ridiculous amount of time for a free spell cast by one of the fastest units in the game, with 9 range) and energy cost increased.
Pylon overcharge: Slight energy increase, possible duration decrease.
That's my two cents. Feedback/input is appreciated.
Talk about quality post!
If its indeed your first post, welcome to TL!
I will point out what i disagree with, since i mostly agree with what you say. Some thing i agree with may not be important, and changing to a position that would make balance worse (and to rebalance, other changes that may not be good design-wise will have to be implemented) is not worth it.
Disclaimer done, here goes:
Banelings: as much as i agree with the idea in spirit, 5 is the minimum and its already too much. Maybe reduce the cost of bane speed?
Infestors: In WoL they used to be frustrating to deal with, but arguably it doesn't matter as much in LotV since there are so many units/abilities with huge impact. Maybe its better to buff infested terrans (eggs?) instead. They are also pretty good with ravagers but its a nitpick.
Corruptor: the real problem is killing the carrier for good (as in they will not be used at all), but a buff against tempest should be a good change. The tempest late game is a bore and shallow strategically, its better if protoss can survive without them but not if they mass them up. The proposed lurker damage reduction should be good to achieve this goal. The proposed tempest change is an alternative.
Liberator: i don't get the reason for the damage change. I think its good that corruptors can shut them down. Its not even a hard counter.
Turrets: Its not a "clean" change and not important either, if liberators are a bit slower, it should be enough. Its good that zerg cannot achieve a critical mass of mutas and snipe command centers and its the line that cannot be crossed.
Twilight concil: with 3 important upgrades i don't think the research time can get any longer.
Disruptor: i agree, but the solution cannot be a decrease in range (to deal with lurkers) and if the damage is nerfed the time to react is good enough. Its a unit with too much impact that can die doing absolutely no damage, maybe they should do less damage and cost a bit less.
HT: With the colossus nerf protoss needs HT to fight masses of zerg and terran. But maybe its an issue in itself. Anyway, too hard to redesign protoss, HT is fine i guess.
Before anyone says anything, its all about design, not race balance.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Corruptor: Add + damage to massive to combat Tempests and Carriers.
Corruptor floods are already pretty good against those units, main reason that they're not amazing IMO is the vulnerability to AOE (archons, storm blankets covering those units). Corruptor Viper is extremely good anti air at the moment and air toss styles are not as strong as ground styles.
Infestor is not used much, but when they are used they do seem to be pretty good. They pair very well with the new LOTV units/abilities - in particular corrosive bile and parasitic bomb. Landing fungals can be devastating, the current projectile is pretty fast but dodgeable if you're at range and that feels much better to play against than the WOL version.
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Based on the terran and protoss changes, it looks like you're a zerg player and missing a good overview of balance - you suggest nerfs to council tech, disruptors, templar, oracles and overcharge with zero compensation, even though ZvP is completely in the zergs hands atm. If those changes went through, the matchup could plausibly go from 60/40ish in favor of zerg to 70/30 overnight which is an insane and absolutely unacceptable level of imbalance.
It's understandable if you want general buffs so that all strategies are a bit better or some other stuff buffed so that they can take over as the best way to play, rather than being forced into certain all ins, tempests in some situations vs T/Z etc - you need to provide those, though, rather than just gutting everything that's left out of the race that's weakest in competitive play at the moment just because you don't like the ways that are left over to take wins
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On March 01 2016 06:50 Cyro wrote:Corruptor floods are already pretty good against those units, main reason that they're not amazing IMO is the vulnerability to AOE (archons, storm blankets covering those units). Corruptor Viper is extremely good anti air at the moment and air toss styles are not as strong as ground styles. Infestor is not used much, but when they are used they do seem to be pretty good. They pair very well with the new LOTV units/abilities - in particular corrosive bile and parasitic bomb. Landing fungals can be devastating, the current projectile is pretty fast but dodgeable if you're at range and that feels much better to play against than the WOL version. --------- Based on the terran and protoss changes, it looks like you're a zerg player and missing a good overview of balance - you suggest nerfs to council tech, disruptors, templar, oracles and overcharge with zero compensation, even though ZvP is completely in the zergs hands atm. If those changes went through, the matchup could plausibly go from 60/40ish in favor of zerg to 70/30 overnight which is an insane and absolutely unacceptable level of imbalance. It's understandable if you want general buffs so that all strategies are a bit better or some other stuff buffed so that they can take over as the best way to play, rather than being forced into certain all ins, tempests in some situations vs T/Z etc - you need to provide those, though, rather than just gutting everything that's left out of the race that's weakest in competitive play at the moment just because you don't like the ways that are left over to take wins
Obviously most of these changes wont even be considered. I was just throwing out ideas. I haven't been following the current top tier win rates, but in my opinion both Terran and Toss are stronger than zerg atm.
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High Templar: Reduce storm damage slightly.
I think the damage shouldn't be nerfed but the DPS should be. This would actually give Terrans more time to micro against it since now it's like that if you can hit even a decent storm it pretty much takes 50% off HP anyways. So what I would like to see is that it can still do the same damage but it does it slower so you actually have a little bit more time to adapt to it since now it's pretty much if Terran couldn't split before the storm lands it will do significant amount of damage EVEN if it isn't a "good hit."
And what was even the big problem for Protoss having only one detection unit? Observer is cloaked itself and doesn't cost you pretty much anything. Zerg has only Overseer too and Terran has only scans which is again away from MULEs.
It's just ridicilous that Oracle can detect, scout, harras (and it forces out turrets or keeping your army back at your base) and it even can put some statis wards. And we all know that if Protoss controls it well it will never ever die since it's so fast. And not just it detects but the scouting aspect of it is way too big too. Think about Brood War's Queen's Parasite. You target that to ONE unit that gives you it's vision untill that unit is dead. This was pretty cool since you had a chance to kill that unit yourself but if you targeted that to unit like Siege Tank you would have to kill an expensive, a good unit. Revelation can be cast from far far away and doesn't even have to be targeted to an unit. You can just click somewhere and boom, you have vision and Terran really cannot move out because Protoss knows EXACTLY where Terran's units are. Revelation also lasts a way too long since it's already a detection spell. I mean it could last as long as scan lasts.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 01 2016 17:19 SiaBBo wrote:I think the damage shouldn't be nerfed but the DPS should be. This would actually give Terrans more time to micro against it since now it's like that if you can hit even a decent storm it pretty much takes 50% off HP anyways. So what I would like to see is that it can still do the same damage but it does it slower so you actually have a little bit more time to adapt to it since now it's pretty much if Terran couldn't split before the storm lands it will do significant amount of damage EVEN if it isn't a "good hit." And what was even the big problem for Protoss having only one detection unit? Observer is cloaked itself and doesn't cost you pretty much anything. Zerg has only Overseer too and Terran has only scans which is again away from MULEs. It's just ridicilous that Oracle can detect, scout, harras (and it forces out turrets or keeping your army back at your base) and it even can put some statis wards. And we all know that if Protoss controls it well it will never ever die since it's so fast. And not just it detects but the scouting aspect of it is way too big too. Think about Brood War's Queen's Parasite. You target that to ONE unit that gives you it's vision untill that unit is dead. This was pretty cool since you had a chance to kill that unit yourself but if you targeted that to unit like Siege Tank you would have to kill an expensive, a good unit. Revelation can be cast from far far away and doesn't even have to be targeted to an unit. You can just click somewhere and boom, you have vision and Terran really cannot move out because Protoss knows EXACTLY where Terran's units are. Revelation also lasts a way too long since it's already a detection spell. I mean it could last as long as scan lasts.
1) Templar's storm is right now the only reliable stronger splash damage. As Protoss armies heavily rely on splash damage you simply cannot nerf it without ANY OTHER CHANGES! So if you want to nerf it, how about you give us something else?
2) If you have only 1 detection unit you have to open EVERY FUCKING TIME with robo. Otherwise you just lost. That's it. Also an observer is squishy unit which is easy to kill. Also observer costs you the time of robo. So if the Protoss is left only with observer again, then we need to lower robotics cost so you can be pumping observers and something else(remind you - the economy is much faster). Basically the detection from Oracle lowers volatility of the game(mostly PvP).
3) Yes, Oracle is a ridiculous band aid unit, what a discovery, many Protoss players are talking about band aids from WoL(sentry, MSC, Oracle, tempest...) Though this is not about balance but about bad design.
I don't know why they hcanged the Oracle from its HotS state where it was a crazy band aid unit, but it wasn't LotV crazy(added stasis ward) #BlizzardThings
edit> by the faster economy I mean you cannot go fast robo and pump enough observers in advance because that's no longer a viable option. Every time player kills an observer and goes with cloaked units(ghosts, mines, lurkers) the player IS SURE that Protoss isn't building another immortal/disruptor/warp prism from robo. Robo is the core building right now and you want to get it even more important without any trade offs.
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On February 27 2016 03:38 purakushi wrote:We agree with those of you who have pointed out that testing some changes to the Cyclone would be useful. The goal here would be to increase the effectiveness of the Cyclone for early/mid stages of the game while not allowing mass Cyclones to be a viable composition in the later stages of the game. In order to do this, we’re thinking about increasing the effectiveness of Cyclones by either increasing their health or damage, and also increasing the supply cost so that their value diminishes in the late stage of the game when players’ armies start to approach max supply.
I agree that pure Cyclone shouldn't be viable, but right now they're near useless apart from some earlygame usability. Buffing the damage, health or cost would give Mech the ability to play more aggressive and could also solve pure Mech's anti-air
issue.
It would be fine to raise the supply cost to make mass Cyclone not viable lategame, but to make it more viable early-/midgame, the gas cost should be reduced, because that imho is the biggest factor, why it can't be produced in higher numbers early on.
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On March 01 2016 17:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 17:19 SiaBBo wrote:
High Templar: Reduce storm damage slightly.
I think the damage shouldn't be nerfed but the DPS should be. This would actually give Terrans more time to micro against it since now it's like that if you can hit even a decent storm it pretty much takes 50% off HP anyways. So what I would like to see is that it can still do the same damage but it does it slower so you actually have a little bit more time to adapt to it since now it's pretty much if Terran couldn't split before the storm lands it will do significant amount of damage EVEN if it isn't a "good hit." And what was even the big problem for Protoss having only one detection unit? Observer is cloaked itself and doesn't cost you pretty much anything. Zerg has only Overseer too and Terran has only scans which is again away from MULEs. It's just ridicilous that Oracle can detect, scout, harras (and it forces out turrets or keeping your army back at your base) and it even can put some statis wards. And we all know that if Protoss controls it well it will never ever die since it's so fast. And not just it detects but the scouting aspect of it is way too big too. Think about Brood War's Queen's Parasite. You target that to ONE unit that gives you it's vision untill that unit is dead. This was pretty cool since you had a chance to kill that unit yourself but if you targeted that to unit like Siege Tank you would have to kill an expensive, a good unit. Revelation can be cast from far far away and doesn't even have to be targeted to an unit. You can just click somewhere and boom, you have vision and Terran really cannot move out because Protoss knows EXACTLY where Terran's units are. Revelation also lasts a way too long since it's already a detection spell. I mean it could last as long as scan lasts. 1) Templar's storm is right now the only reliable stronger splash damage. As Protoss armies heavily rely on splash damage you simply cannot nerf it without ANY OTHER CHANGES! So if you want to nerf it, how about you give us something else? 2) If you have only 1 detection unit you have to open EVERY FUCKING TIME with robo. Otherwise you just lost. That's it. Also an observer is squishy unit which is easy to kill. Also observer costs you the time of robo. So if the Protoss is left only with observer again, then we need to lower robotics cost so you can be pumping observers and something else(remind you - the economy is much faster). Basically the detection from Oracle lowers volatility of the game(mostly PvP). 3) Yes, Oracle is a ridiculous band aid unit, what a discovery, many Protoss players are talking about band aids from WoL(sentry, MSC, Oracle, tempest...) Though this is not about balance but about bad design. I don't know why they hcanged the Oracle from its HotS state where it was a crazy band aid unit, but it wasn't LotV crazy(added stasis ward) #BlizzardThings edit> by the faster economy I mean you cannot go fast robo and pump enough observers in advance because that's no longer a viable option. Every time player kills an observer and goes with cloaked units(ghosts, mines, lurkers) the player IS SURE that Protoss isn't building another immortal/disruptor/warp prism from robo. Robo is the core building right now and you want to get it even more important without any trade offs.
1) Yes it may be only reliable stronger splash damage but that doesn't make it any more balanced. Slight nerf should be okay since it actually even rewards microing. And I've seen Protoss armies do pretty well with gateway units + immortals. Sure when the game has been going longer you need to add Templars but they are sooo powerful. Like there is no way to beat Tempest/HT/Immortal + other bullshit.
2)So we can agree that Revelation should be nerfed.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
I haven't been following the current top tier win rates, but in my opinion both Terran and Toss are stronger than zerg atm.
Zerg is doing fine atm but it may be T>Z at the absolute highest level of play, korean terrans are doing pretty good.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rRMkWRZ.png)
race distribution is also way off at all levels of play, i can't remember the last time it was this bad and i bought the game on release day. Over 4x as many zvz's as pvp's and Z is extremely popular on EU and NA; there's almost twice as many zerg as protoss in NA diamond. That's not the greatest indicator on its own but combined with other stats it becomes quite alarming
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 01 2016 18:32 SiaBBo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 17:58 deacon.frost wrote:On March 01 2016 17:19 SiaBBo wrote:
High Templar: Reduce storm damage slightly.
I think the damage shouldn't be nerfed but the DPS should be. This would actually give Terrans more time to micro against it since now it's like that if you can hit even a decent storm it pretty much takes 50% off HP anyways. So what I would like to see is that it can still do the same damage but it does it slower so you actually have a little bit more time to adapt to it since now it's pretty much if Terran couldn't split before the storm lands it will do significant amount of damage EVEN if it isn't a "good hit." And what was even the big problem for Protoss having only one detection unit? Observer is cloaked itself and doesn't cost you pretty much anything. Zerg has only Overseer too and Terran has only scans which is again away from MULEs. It's just ridicilous that Oracle can detect, scout, harras (and it forces out turrets or keeping your army back at your base) and it even can put some statis wards. And we all know that if Protoss controls it well it will never ever die since it's so fast. And not just it detects but the scouting aspect of it is way too big too. Think about Brood War's Queen's Parasite. You target that to ONE unit that gives you it's vision untill that unit is dead. This was pretty cool since you had a chance to kill that unit yourself but if you targeted that to unit like Siege Tank you would have to kill an expensive, a good unit. Revelation can be cast from far far away and doesn't even have to be targeted to an unit. You can just click somewhere and boom, you have vision and Terran really cannot move out because Protoss knows EXACTLY where Terran's units are. Revelation also lasts a way too long since it's already a detection spell. I mean it could last as long as scan lasts. 1) Templar's storm is right now the only reliable stronger splash damage. As Protoss armies heavily rely on splash damage you simply cannot nerf it without ANY OTHER CHANGES! So if you want to nerf it, how about you give us something else? 2) If you have only 1 detection unit you have to open EVERY FUCKING TIME with robo. Otherwise you just lost. That's it. Also an observer is squishy unit which is easy to kill. Also observer costs you the time of robo. So if the Protoss is left only with observer again, then we need to lower robotics cost so you can be pumping observers and something else(remind you - the economy is much faster). Basically the detection from Oracle lowers volatility of the game(mostly PvP). 3) Yes, Oracle is a ridiculous band aid unit, what a discovery, many Protoss players are talking about band aids from WoL(sentry, MSC, Oracle, tempest...) Though this is not about balance but about bad design. I don't know why they hcanged the Oracle from its HotS state where it was a crazy band aid unit, but it wasn't LotV crazy(added stasis ward) #BlizzardThings edit> by the faster economy I mean you cannot go fast robo and pump enough observers in advance because that's no longer a viable option. Every time player kills an observer and goes with cloaked units(ghosts, mines, lurkers) the player IS SURE that Protoss isn't building another immortal/disruptor/warp prism from robo. Robo is the core building right now and you want to get it even more important without any trade offs. 1) Yes it may be only reliable stronger splash damage but that doesn't make it any more balanced. Slight nerf should be okay since it actually even rewards microing. And I've seen Protoss armies do pretty well with gateway units + immortals. Sure when the game has been going longer you need to add Templars but they are sooo powerful. Like there is no way to beat Tempest/HT/Immortal + other bullshit. 2)So we can agree that Revelation should be nerfed.
1) That's more a problem of tempests which is IMO better unit for removal(or change)
2) Yes and no, the problem is that it's tied to detection.
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I want diverity, so they should buff the thor for mech play
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Zerg has only Overseer too
Overseers and spores are much more accessable than observers. Zerg can (and do) spam both of them - spores to cover til lair is done, a ton of overseers when attacking and a ton of spores when turtling.
Playing into a good zerg with only observers for detection is super painful - you can have 3-5 observers and still not be able to detect adequately because of Z instantly killing them whenever they step out of place and having their own AA+detection everywhere
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On March 01 2016 18:34 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +I haven't been following the current top tier win rates, but in my opinion both Terran and Toss are stronger than zerg atm. Zerg is doing fine atm but it may be T>Z at the absolute highest level of play, korean terrans are doing pretty good. race distribution is also way off at all levels of play, i can't remember the last time it was this bad and i bought the game on release day. Over 4x as many zvz's as pvp's and Z is extremely popular on EU and NA; there's almost twice as many zerg as protoss in NA diamond. That's not the greatest indicator on its own but combined with other stats it becomes quite alarming
I'm sorry, are my eyes failing me and that picture does say something other than PvZ 38%? How is this fine?
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
It's 500 games over 2 weeks, not as big of a problem as if it were thousands of games over 3 months. Still a pain in the ass as both a player and spectator though.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 01 2016 19:33 Cyro wrote:Overseers and spores are much more accessable than observers. Zerg can (and do) spam both of them - spores to cover til lair is done, a ton of overseers when attacking and a ton of spores when turtling. Playing into a good zerg with only observers for detection is super painful - you can have 3-5 observers and still not be able to detect adequately because of Z instantly killing them whenever they step out of place and having their own AA+detection everywhere, revelation is a lifesaver
If they really want to nerf the Oracle - I suggest giving the observer vision-detection upgrade. Tied for hive-ish timing, either with resources or with some additional building(I can imagine beacon upgrade for 100/100/45). Otherwise we would need to introduce some shield/hp buff to make it last longer and that's a nonsense move in PvT, IMO.
Not sure about the number, but IIRC it has detection/vision range 11, so +2 won't break it too much, IMO. (the old MSC had 14 vision range before nerf IIRC so this would be still less with an expensive upgrade)
This way observers would be harder to snipe. I am kinda resisting to put that upgrade into bay, because that would be huge buff(basically no drops possible). I can see it happening at bay with getting the thrusters first and longer research time.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
The obs build time itself is also a consideration, if you're building a squad of them (to scout and defend) from the robo for timings that come when you're at 80-140 supply then you'll have less robo units.
Chronoboost is only +15% speed now when it used to be +50%, this is one of the bigger places where that loss is felt
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 01 2016 19:51 Cyro wrote:
The obs build time itself is also a consideration, if you're building 3-4 of them (to scout and defend) from the robo for timings that come when you're at 80-140 supply then you'll have less immortals
Robo in general is the big problem. The Blizzard idea is/was that you need from robo in LotV this:
- observers
- warp prisms
- disruptors
Ideally at the same time. Robo now reminds me harder version of Zerg's dilemma "when to build drones and when units" 
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EPT
