On March 01 2016 19:51 Cyro wrote: The obs build time itself is also a consideration, if you're building 3-4 of them (to scout and defend) from the robo for timings that come when you're at 80-140 supply then you'll have less immortals
Robo in general is the big problem. The Blizzard idea is/was that you need from robo in LotV this: - observers - warp prisms - disruptors
Ideally at the same time. Robo now reminds me harder version of Zerg's dilemma "when to build drones and when units"
In the reality of pro games, robo is used mainly for immortals, then some observers, then one or two prisms. No time for disruptors outside of some PvP or against some roach/ravager allin (and even then you often still see only immortals).
It's sad because I love watching disruptor shots go off against clumped zerg stuff.
On March 01 2016 19:51 Cyro wrote: The obs build time itself is also a consideration, if you're building 3-4 of them (to scout and defend) from the robo for timings that come when you're at 80-140 supply then you'll have less immortals
Robo in general is the big problem. The Blizzard idea is/was that you need from robo in LotV this: - observers - warp prisms - disruptors
Ideally at the same time. Robo now reminds me harder version of Zerg's dilemma "when to build drones and when units"
In the reality of pro games, robo is used mainly for immortals, then some observers, then one or two prisms. No time for disruptors outside of some PvP or against some roach/ravager allin (and even then you often still see only immortals).
It's sad because I love watching disruptor shots go off against clumped zerg stuff.
That's why I wrote that it was Blizzard idea Reality is far away from what they thought. Though with suggested nerf to Oracles the Robotic facility gets more attention again. I remember I was using 2 robos in HotS because I was playing the "pigbaby" style(observers, I need more observers!)
Guys I wanna remind you that siege mode tank pickups should not at all be a balance matter. Balance can be achieved in many ways. Tankivacs are not necessary for that. Balance is no criteria therefore.
The question is only about design and attitude. Do we want games being dominated by flying tanks? Last monday's pro-league games showed me that a roach/ravager zerg cannot catch them at all.
I respect Blizzard and DK for the work they put into SC2. But this issue is another showcase of not existing leadership, non existent ideas and goals. The attitude is like "how can we make all of you happy so that you like us most" shit! Bullshit! There is no right and wrong in this issue. Some ppl might argue from a balance position, others like me from a design position.
What this game is lacking is one guy, one head, that knows how this game should look like, play out and be in the end of the day, a guy with a vision. And that guy ain't you for sure DK, I am sorry to say, with all that back and forth and make everything right for everyone attitude.
What I know is that flash has 30k viewers on his stream right now and that neither me nor any of the people I know find SC2 exactly fun to play these days. And no, tankivacs is nothing that viewers want to see: "look this zerg cannot catch the 2 tanks for 5+ minutes with queens and ravagers, while they deal free damage, lets balance the game around this".
There is no right and wrong in this issue. Some ppl might argue from a balance position, others like me from a design position.
Design is the first consideration. Some people talk 100% about balance, but they're obviously making big design changes in some of these patches.
Balance comes after design (if you balance then redesign, you'll just have to balance again.. if you redesign and then balance, you're done)
For the best example of a recent design (not balance) change, look to the photon overcharge nerf that took protoss from nearly equal winrates against zerg to 38% winrate in the last 2 weeks. That wasn't a "protoss is doing too good against zerg" change - that was a "we don't like how protoss power is allocated so we're changing the design" change, one that the community also backed up.
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You can balance a siege tank with or without the ability to instantly pick it up and drop it in siege mode w/ boosted medivacs. It's obvious that with the sieged drop design of the unit, there is less of a power budget to assign to things like how much damage it can do, otherwise it would simply be too powerful and break the winrates.
That's the reason why "Siege tank needs pickup in order for TvZ ravager balance to exist" is a bad argument. You can add stats until it works. If there's a game breaking problem with the ravager when tank sieged pickup+drop doesn't exist, that unit can specifically be adjusted - it's not just giving trouble to terran.
4gate, infestor/bl, 1-1-1, mass ghost lategame TvZ, soul train and many more similar things made some of the most exciting games in the history of sc2 - food for thought.
Something to remember is that in Brood War Lurker concaves were very popular against Protoss. Overlords were detectors. Only detector that Protoss had was an Observer. Scourges one shot it and Hydras kill it very fast too. This wasn't a problem in Brood War though so how is it a big problem in SC2? It isn't.
On March 01 2016 21:50 lohdon wrote: I'm so glad I didn't buy LOTV.
you're missing out man. Its a great great game to play!
Yeah, despite the fact that it could be so much better with the right changes, there is no doubt that it is still "the" strategy game to be playing now and hopefully in the future.
On March 01 2016 23:35 SiaBBo wrote: Something to remember is that in Brood War Lurker concaves were very popular against Protoss. Overlords were detectors. Only detector that Protoss had was an Observer. Scourges one shot it and Hydras kill it very fast too. This wasn't a problem in Brood War though so how is it a big problem in SC2? It isn't.
In Brood War the storm had bigger radius and bigger damage. Gimme gimme gimme!
On March 01 2016 22:45 LSN wrote: Guys I wanna remind you that siege mode tank pickups should not at all be a balance matter. Balance can be achieved in many ways. Tankivacs are not necessary for that. Balance is no criteria therefore.
The question is only about design and attitude. Do we want games being dominated by flying tanks? Last monday's pro-league games showed me that a roach/ravager zerg cannot catch them at all.
I respect Blizzard and DK for the work they put into SC2. But this issue is another showcase of not existing leadership, non existent ideas and goals. The attitude is like "how can we make all of you happy so that you like us most" shit! Bullshit! There is no right and wrong in this issue. Some ppl might argue from a balance position, others like me from a design position.
What this game is lacking is one guy, one head, that knows how this game should look like, play out and be in the end of the day, a guy with a vision. And that guy ain't you for sure DK, I am sorry to say, with all that back and forth and make everything right for everyone attitude.
What I know is that flash has 30k viewers on his stream right now and that neither me nor any of the people I know find SC2 exactly fun to play these days. And no, tankivacs is nothing that viewers want to see: "look this zerg cannot catch the 2 tanks for 5+ minutes with queens and ravagers, while they deal free damage, lets balance the game around this".
Sadly, this is the truth. However, I would disagree with one point - being that it is not too late for the current design/balance teams to have a change of heart and begin to pursue the correct path to have this game become great again. It is never too late for anything in life. How long did it take to change Protoss chronoboost, warp-in mechanics, and/or reinstate the macro features - too long but they got it right in the end.
Unfortunately, change and/or great things rarely come from a position of comfort, or of entitlement. Game design must prevail now over any balance considerations in these early months after release of the final expansion. To do otherwise would be very detrimental to the future of the game. We can balance the game this summer, or next year - and everyone will be better off waiting for it.
On March 01 2016 23:49 weikor wrote: I dont understand why the tank had to change from a positional unit, to a 2 part colossus that requires a little more micro.
If theres really need for a long range - mobile unit, isnt that why they implemented the cyclone?
Why dont they change the cyclone to fill the role of the tankivac, and change the flying tank to a proper siege tank
That is how it should be designed. Also, why do it at the precise time (beta) that a new flying siege unit is being introduced to the game !! Why create a Tankivac out of the most positional and core unit that Terran has, when you are also bringing in the Liberator as part of LOTV? It makes absolutely no sense from a design perspective !
On March 01 2016 23:10 Cyro wrote: You can balance a siege tank with or without the ability to instantly pick it up and drop it in siege mode w/ boosted medivacs. It's obvious that with the sieged drop design of the unit, there is less of a power budget to assign to things like how much damage it can do, otherwise it would simply be too powerful and break the winrates.
Ye and ravagers are defenitely too strong. Not too strong as a unit themselves but too strong for the point of time when they come into play. Therefore I'd try to switch ravagers with lurkers, delay liberators by tech lab and remove tankivacs.
I think the design of the old siegetank is problematic because lotv is so fast that you have to reposition yourself very often. If you do not hit a 30 sec timing you have to backoff. If you backoff with tanks you can be overrun so hard. Thats why i like the idea of the tank being able to pick off sieged but then unsiege + maybe a slight damage increas.
but part of the reason that LOTV is fast is because we have units like siege tank which are now hypermobile instead of strong positional units. We have mobility creep because nobody stood up for unit designs like the siege tank.
On March 01 2016 23:10 Cyro wrote: That's the reason why "Siege tank needs pickup in order for TvZ ravager balance to exist" is a bad argument. You can add stats until it works. If there's a game breaking problem with the ravager when tank sieged pickup+drop doesn't exist, that unit can specifically be adjusted - it's not just giving trouble to terran.
You can balance anything, but that doesn't mean gameplay is better. What if you have to increase tank base damage to 45+ in order to do it and they start one shotting marines turning TvT into mech hell? You might have removed tankivacs and maintained balance, but in the process abandoned the actual goal of making TvT different/'better'.
EPT
Reality is far away from what they thought. Though with suggested nerf to Oracles the Robotic facility gets more attention again. I remember I was using 2 robos in HotS because I was playing the "pigbaby" style(observers, I need more observers!)
