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Awesome hope blizzard keeps up with frequent updates and balance maps and patches...will really re-invigorate SC2 imo.
Thoughts / feedback about TvT / mech:
-tankivac is way too strong TvT. Tanks themselves have always been way too weak ever since the old school tank nerf, please give tanks back some fire power. Tanks that can kill things and are a force to reckon with will allow mech games to be more aggressive because tanks will trade better making it so you aren't forced to turtle as much
-cyclone: cyclones are terrible units right now it's basically a worse marauder. It's single target, has a terrible auto attack (which even bugs out sometimes) and does incredibly poorly versus any swarm of units. It needs to be cheaper, 150/150 for this unit is so extreme - it has 120 health. A MARAUDER HAS 125 HEALTH, BETTER AUTO, BUILT FROM RAX, AND COST LESS MONEY WHAT THE HELL?! And can stim and be healed -_-
Cyclones should be something like 125/75 - a unit that can be built and traded with enemy units so that mech can actually be aggressive instead of turtle fest....with that said....
-Tempests - are actually ridiculously OP and make mech basically unplayable. Tempest is the same supply as a void ray aka 4 supply. It has basically 3-4x the health of a cyclone, and this unit is just one of those air deathball units that forces mech games to turn into a turtle "i can't attack because he built air units" fest.
Every single mech TvP played, if Protoss starts massing tempest, the mech player has to sit and turtle another 10 minutes to make 30 viking/raven or you just auto-lose since thors/cyclones suck as anti-air and widow mines are just RNG.
Please make cyclones/thors do more damage against air units as was proposed in a previous update. This will dissuade the mass air bullshit from even occurring.
I honestly think the same issue exists with all the air units in the game. Broodlords, liberators, tempest, carriers...these units need nerfs in supply costs and power and ground anti-air counter parts should be buffed.
There should never be SC2 games where you're basically rewarded for turtling into broodlords + vipers or mass liberators. If cyclones, hydralisks, thors...were strong enough to actually fight air then games would all trend towards action packed ground versus ground games where people trade army value units instead of sitting and accumulating the OP air units.
The problem with broodlords, liberators, BCS, ravens, carriers, and tempests being how they are is that when you begin massing those units there is no limiting factor to dissuade you from continuously producing air. There are no ground units in the game from any race that can dissuade you from massing air units and that's a problem because air units have the inherent advantage of FLYING aka a lot of units in the game can't even fire at them.
Please Blizzard tone down air units or discuss this it would be nice to know blizzard's thoughts on this. For me personally i find it really frustrating when i try to play Mech TvP or Mech TvZ only to find my opponent starts massing brood/viper or mass tempests and then i am forced to turtle into mass viking/raven/liberator to have a chance to win since my entire ground army is now invalidated.
QUOTE]On February 05 2016 07:41 sAsImre wrote:
TvT is way better than HotS due to Tankivacs. Please don't change that it improved the match up so much.[/QUOTE]
TvT is probably one of the worst match-ups right now because of tankivac + coinflip doom drop every game that it brought on.
99% of TvT on ladder are marine tank vs marine tank and if you are brave and try to Mech it Happen you play vs people that load up 10 medivacs and right click to your base which really is not a strategy game at all, just a coinflip on whether u catch the doom drop or not.
I'm surprised they don't mention reapers which are also make TvT early game a complete coin flip like ZvZ.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
i think the basic problem with PvZ is that it seems to take more strategy, control, work to win as P (for instance building placement), while Z can to go ravager and roach (and later lurkers). This means at a very high level PvZ is prolly more balanced where at lower levels Z is gonna kill it.
If by lower levels you mean not within the top fraction of a percent sure. It's just way easier to play solid ZvP than PvZ right now.
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Also @ people saying PvZ is massively Zerg favored...i just casted 3 bo3 PvZ games in the WCS NA qualifiers...state, catz, jimrising, etc.
PvZ to me looked to be incredibly Protoss favored regardless of what statistics anyone wants to refer to. From the games i play and saw adepts are just as ridiculous post "-1 dmg" (LOL) as they were before.
Also apparently Protoss has a secretly OP unit called the immortal - i don't know if many of you realize this yet or have seen many pro games or noticed this in your games...Protoss players are going double/triple robo mass immortal versus both Terran and Zerg. Immortals basically have a second health bar with barrier so it's almost as if 1 immortal in LOTV = 2 HOTS immortals. I am not joking, go into the unit tester and try out some fights or just watch current games.
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They still don't see how boring and overpowered lurkers are...
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On the Tankivac issue, as Zerg I'd say the best fix is to buff siege tanks damage and remove the pickup. Bio feels so weak right now that I am not worried about too much damage from tanks... Mech is the only concern I'd have but there are other ways to deal with that. If you try to compensate for the tank nerf with banshee speed or cyclone you're just gona reduce bio to nothing
On February 05 2016 14:18 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +i think the basic problem with PvZ is that it seems to take more strategy, control, work to win as P (for instance building placement), while Z can to go ravager and roach (and later lurkers). This means at a very high level PvZ is prolly more balanced where at lower levels Z is gonna kill it. If by lower levels you mean not within the top fraction of a percent sure. It's just way easier to play solid ZvP than PvZ right now.
It's actually very strategic on both sides, roach ravager every game is not ideal at all, as the game gets more refined I think we will start to see Zerg choosing more carefully. Right now the games are pretty haphazard.
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On February 05 2016 14:19 Nars_ wrote:
They still don't see how boring and overpowered lurkers are...
huh... I dont seem to get that impression at all.... From the games I watched they were definitely worth while units but I'd see whole bunches of them get wiped out in one fell swoop too..
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
^That plus they seem to have gone completely out of style since launch and beta, they used to be used way more
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People forgot they creat ravager to counter position units.Siege tank just need slight buff damage to scale better in low number and i prefer they buff cyclone if you play mech and banshee if you play bios than buff siege tank to the level it counter thier counter which conflict design.
People overreact with speed banshee come too soon but put it in armory should do the trick,we just need test map for more insight.
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I like the proposed changes. I'm a little worried about the Siege Tank. Tankivac gave it new mobility that aided its low area damage against light. I don't think they'll go back to the days where you couldn't generally overrun siege tank lines with marines & zerglings because of smart fire and high reg damage splash. I don't see how they can buff it back to a fun unit that's great to use without making it clearly overpowered, while at the same time moderate buffs just making TvT a worse matchup to play.
TvP change to adept letting marines trade better early game is great. I'm glad it's staying. I'm glad the mothership core change is staying. I've won so many games dropping multiple locations and kite killing defending units because he eventually runs out of overcharges and I do damage.
ZvT I need to see more Korean pro games to judge where the matchup is.
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On February 05 2016 07:12 Charoisaur wrote:
No comment on ultras? Didn't he see byun vs curious?
It's just bad design when two armies are trading even the entire game then suddenly ultras pop and it's gg.
it just feels like terran is playing on a timer every game
When you dont play for the lategame and you put all your resources into trying to kill your opponent you can't complain when you lose when your opponent actually reaches lategame.
Byun was at like 25 workers or something, was too focussed on ending the game in the midgame to even make more cc's or infrastructure to deal with ultras.
And he was behind from the very start anyway.
Stop whining, he got outplayed.
Anyway good update I think, but removing drop tanks might make ravager allins too strong..
not sure how they could fix that.
Making ravager armored would make them too weak vs immortals, marauders and void rays.
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These mech whiners are driving me nuts really. Buff tank true mech i think i'm smart i want to build 40 tanks and amove wow
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
I dont understand, when were disruptors not super strong in PvP?
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Honestly i dont think removing tankivac is a good idea, tvt in legacy of the the void is defenetly more fun and dynamic cause of them. Finally doomdrops are not the main game winning moves, infact you can defend them if you have the tanks on the medivacs and you are reactive enough. Further more, unlike hots, if you have an army advantage you can engage into your enemy if you have good micro. I feel like in TvT good micro is rewarded at the moment during the midgame (more the hots at least). For the other matchups tankivacs can be really effective cause of their mobility and pick up micro options, in particular tankivacs bio seems the best composition to deal with roaches ravagers infestors and its very effective against heavy adepts and stalkers protoss armies.
Removing tankivacs and buffing the tank would èrobably reward turtler player but would also remove many aggressive play options (as well as reactive defense options) that terran have now, so i dont think its a good change for the game.
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I play Terran but i'm still kinda surprised that PvZ was ignored.. One step at a time, right?
Completely agree with changing Disruptors. Make them do less damage to shields.
I'm conflicted with removing tankivacs but i think it could make TvT a bit less volatile again. Let's focus on the TvZ matchup after this ability is removed. Can we maybe change Steady Targeting so it does added damage to massive units? This would make it a bit more viable against Ultras (i think it takes 3 snipes per ultra right now). We could also increase their overall & sieged damage?
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Yeah I've actually been seeing that tank drops are defendable and that TvT is more involved in a good way as a result.
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On February 05 2016 08:06 BretZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 07:37 JonnySC2 wrote:
Are they serious? They don't even mention PvZ at all. Very disappointing. They specifically note to add any pressing balance changes. Instead of just being "disappointed", would you suggest something for PvZ? I got nothing other than expecting something new to come from the meta.
I am just disappointed by the fact that they don't even mention that they are looking into PvZ or something, but rather don't talk about it at all.
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Disruptor deals less damage further from explosion center like all other forms of splash damage (siege tank) should.
Lower cool down to compensate. It rewards people who split, even if imperfectly, instead of "split like a pro or lose" or "run away and bait shots leading to stale gameplay and less action".
No?
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TvT is alot more fun with tankivacs than none-tankivacs.
TvT in hots was really boring imo. Now its atleast more fun than before.
Would still prefer tanks to work without medivacs. But the tank isnt true mech, what is true mech is all pieces together.
Hellion doesnt feel like a mech unit, or should i rephrase it and say it doesnt belong in mech. It has to little impact and also not room for much play.
Hellbat has impact, but isnt much fun.
Sure, medibat harass in mid/lategame can still be fun but i would prefer if the unit could do move on its own and also not be this a-move either in big armee vs big armee.
Hope blizzard really have the balls to try and adress more mech units but also look at the other side of the table, for example tempest do they bring a fun gameplay?
In my small experience they dont. So nerf/remove some design of that unit(such as the range) and compensate otherwise.
If tempest gets lowered range, then perhaps upgraded liberators do to.
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EPT
