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On February 05 2016 15:51 Mugen93 wrote:
Honestly i dont think removing tankivac is a good idea, tvt in legacy of the the void is defenetly more fun and dynamic cause of them. Finally doomdrops are not the main game winning moves, infact you can defend them if you have the tanks on the medivacs and you are reactive enough.
So what you are saying is you can counter the doomdrop if you also do exactly the same as your opponent, and do a defensive doomdrop effectively. That sounds like great gameplay.
Further more, unlike hots, if you have an army advantage you can engage into your enemy if you have good micro.
Exactly the problem imo. It has little to do with positioning, and only who can fly faster and more efficient with his static siege units. Why not just make them fire while in a medivac, then we can call them tempests.
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On February 05 2016 15:39 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 07:12 Charoisaur wrote:
No comment on ultras? Didn't he see byun vs curious?
It's just bad design when two armies are trading even the entire game then suddenly ultras pop and it's gg.
it just feels like terran is playing on a timer every game
When you dont play for the lategame and you put all your resources into trying to kill your opponent you can't complain when you lose when your opponent actually reaches lategame. Byun was at like 25 workers or something, was too focussed on ending the game in the midgame to even make more cc's or infrastructure to deal with ultras. And he was behind from the very start anyway. Stop whining, he got outplayed.
lol you aren't serious? So terrans should just sit in their base and turtle to ghost liberator without doing anything?
You know that zerg then just takes the entire map and wins the game. There is a reason why every single terran tries to win in midgame.
You can believe me I've watched a ton of lotv games and I haven't seen a SINGLE high level tvz where ultras came out and the zerg didn't win unless the terran was already massively ahead. ( well, except ty - soulkey but that doesn't count because soulkey didn't know vipers exist)
they just don't have a real counter to ultras, ghosts work vs ultras in low numbers but vs 10+ ultras with baneling infestor support they are not enough. Liberators get invalidated by vipers or just by attacking somewhere else.
so thors? BCs? Stop trolling.
terran plays at a timer at the moment in this matchup like during BL/infestor and this time there are also biased zergs like you that say: it's all fine terran has enough ways to beat it, or: you let me get there so I deserve to win.
And before anyone comes and says I'm just salty about my ladder losses; no tvz is my best matchup with 70% winrate because I allin every game but the way the matchup plays is just bullshit atm.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On February 05 2016 09:46 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 09:15 Silvana wrote:What we need is an honorable Zerg that says PvZ is broken and thanks David Kim in his interview after beating a Protoss  What we need is frustrated plat/diamond players to stop whining. The winrate has already been adjusting upwards for protoss in recent weeks because they've figured out how to play the matchup (even in presence of the adept nerf), and it's now at ~45%. If you remove or adjust the ridiculously Zerg favored maps so they're balanced, I'm convinced the matchup will gravitate towards sub 3% balance differences very soon (at which point balance kind of becomes irrelevant, it means that when two equally skilled players play, one will lose 3 games out of 50 because of imbalance).
So why were we not waiting in PvT then? The game was at 50 % and more and more Terrans were getting better at defending adepts. Where is the difference between TvP and ZvP? I simply cannot see it, we have for almost 3 months PvZ under 45 % win rate but "lets wait", we have PvT for 3 months around 50 % and everybody is insane because of adepts.
WTF? Am I the only one who doesn't get that?
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On February 05 2016 07:05 Jer99 wrote:
quick trigger guitars
well he has 'em set to kill, so that's not surprising
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On February 05 2016 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 09:46 heishe wrote:On February 05 2016 09:15 Silvana wrote:What we need is an honorable Zerg that says PvZ is broken and thanks David Kim in his interview after beating a Protoss What we need is frustrated plat/diamond players to stop whining. The winrate has already been adjusting upwards for protoss in recent weeks because they've figured out how to play the matchup (even in presence of the adept nerf), and it's now at ~45%. If you remove or adjust the ridiculously Zerg favored maps so they're balanced, I'm convinced the matchup will gravitate towards sub 3% balance differences very soon (at which point balance kind of becomes irrelevant, it means that when two equally skilled players play, one will lose 3 games out of 50 because of imbalance). So why were we not waiting in PvT then? The game was at 50 % and more and more Terrans were getting better at defending adepts. Where is the difference between TvP and ZvP? I simply cannot see it, we have for almost 3 months PvZ under 45 % win rate but "lets wait", we have PvT for 3 months around 50 % and everybody is insane because of adepts. WTF? Am I the only one who doesn't get that?
sometimes you have to not only look at winrates but have to jist look at the games ... well and listen to pro feedback.
and no terrans weren't getting better at defending adepts, they just sacrificed more and more into defending them which gave protoss a bigger and bigger lead in the mid-lategame.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On February 05 2016 17:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 17:13 deacon.frost wrote:On February 05 2016 09:46 heishe wrote:On February 05 2016 09:15 Silvana wrote:What we need is an honorable Zerg that says PvZ is broken and thanks David Kim in his interview after beating a Protoss What we need is frustrated plat/diamond players to stop whining. The winrate has already been adjusting upwards for protoss in recent weeks because they've figured out how to play the matchup (even in presence of the adept nerf), and it's now at ~45%. If you remove or adjust the ridiculously Zerg favored maps so they're balanced, I'm convinced the matchup will gravitate towards sub 3% balance differences very soon (at which point balance kind of becomes irrelevant, it means that when two equally skilled players play, one will lose 3 games out of 50 because of imbalance). So why were we not waiting in PvT then? The game was at 50 % and more and more Terrans were getting better at defending adepts. Where is the difference between TvP and ZvP? I simply cannot see it, we have for almost 3 months PvZ under 45 % win rate but "lets wait", we have PvT for 3 months around 50 % and everybody is insane because of adepts. WTF? Am I the only one who doesn't get that? sometimes you have to not only look at winrates but have to jist look at the games ... well and listen to pro feedback. and no terrans weren't getting better at defending adepts, they just sacrificed more and more into defending them which gave protoss a bigger and bigger lead in the mid-lategame.
Yeah, I agree. The PvT games were 1 dimensional bullshit boring games, kinda like swarm host Zerg games or meching Terran in the end of HotS. But Protoss were having difficulties and nothing changed.
And I honestly think that the biggest fucked up thing in PvZ is actually the map pool.
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Holy shit they are actually considering buffing the siege tank damage at last :D After so many years of "stubborness"
All good stuff, except no word about PvZ or the ultras.
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YES! Remove siege tank medivac pickup and TvT will be great again! Woooooooooooooooo  .
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On one side I'm happy tankivacs get removed.
On the other side doomdrops will be far stronger again... ugh
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Tankivacs are on one hand side against everything that Tank is. However, on the other hand side, it made TvZ really interesting. Plus atm, I cannot imagine TvZ without this ability. It would make Tanks useless against Ravegers.
And removing Tank pick-up will make TvT extremely boring again. Do we really want TvT to become chess game again?
Please Blizzard, do not do this!
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I'm agree with gsl commentator when they said TvT is the most beautifull and exciting matchup to see.
So I think it's counterproductive to remove Tankivac and to buff mech. Maybe all of people who whine against tankivac have forget how sc2 was when mech was good. Maybe they forget camp game and their match with 45 minutes and 0 actions.
Indeed Zvp it's clearly imbalance with the tankivac harass but I don't think remove the ability of tank is a good idea.
sorry for my english
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On February 05 2016 08:12 Major wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 07:41 sAsImre wrote:
TvT is way better than HotS due to Tankivacs. Please don't change that it improved the match up so much. no it really isnt ask any terran and they tell you its dumb and not fun
I am a master terran. Before the tankivacs I hated TvT. Now I enjoy it as much as the other matchups. If they remove tankivacs, I think I would enjoy tvt much less.
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Good update. I hope they will change the tank pick up and buff the Tank dmg.
I'd like to see discussion on mech TvP. Let's not wait for SC3 to try something.
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Removing the fun and interesting tankivac for the boring tank mech? No thank you.
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I think there's an inherent problem in having AoE's deal way too much bonus damage to armoured. It's kind of counterintuitive, since you initially get splash to ward of masses of smaller units.
Siege Tank/Lurker/WoL Ultralisk. They never really stood the test of time, the outlier being the Lurker here. I think that lies in the sheer power of the unit, but even then they're not utilized to counteract Bio compositions, they have problems vs Chargelot/Archon, vs Zerg, well that matchup is mostly based around Roaches and so Lurkers are strong in that matchup.
Compare that to Widow Mines, Ravager Corrosive Bile, HotS Ultralisk, Disruptors, Psionic Storm, Colossus and even Planetary Fortress.
Marines still stand tall in the aftermath of all these strong AoE's and I don't think changing Siege Tanks to 50 damage across the board suddenly changes that. Funnily enough this could save Mech vs Zealot(Charge,) Adept(Shade,) Archons, Ravagers, Lings with +1 armour and as mentioned Marines. Tank harass will be much weaker without Tankivac and so I think it's actually cool that they one shot workers. I still think Medivacs should be able to lift up Sieged Tanks though, then they become Unsieged in the Medivac.
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To all the people praising the tankivac : you obviously don't play TvT.
Having absolutely no way to prevent an ennemy with a macro avantage to drop tanks in your face and win the game is incredibly punishing and onesided. Right now the matchup is HARASS => HARASS => HARASS => HARASS => SWITCH MARINE TANKS AT SOME POINT. And the guy who killed the most SCVs during the harass period drops tanks in your face => win.
TvT isn't about positionning anymore. Doom drops are countered less by preparation/strategy (leaving 10 marines, a tank and turrets in your main for instance), and more by coinflip (am I close enough to my base with my own tankivacs?).
Removing the tankivac doesn't mean that it's gonna be mech every game like in HOTS. Bio already has this HUGE new advantage of having the possibility to switch for viking liberators, which is HOTS's viking banshee switch on steroids. Oh and maps and new eco favors bio a lot, too.
As a whole, removing the tankivac will make TvT a positionnal/strategic matchup again, and not a retarded coinflippy APM penis battle, while you'll still have compositionnal ways to deal with mech.
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On February 05 2016 20:15 JackONeill wrote:
To all the people praising the tankivac : you obviously don't play TvT.
why do you keep making assumptions like this? I am a master terran, I played around 600 games in the last season. I absolutely love the tankivacs. I think they make TvT much less punishing than it was before. I would be very sad to see the tankivac go, as they make for amazing games.
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I am all for the end of the tankivac and a nerf of the roach/ravergers composition (it makes zvt insanely stupid to watch and play for a zerg pov with not that much stuff to micro) but what would be the compensation in zvp? The phoenix builds following 10 immortals with a chargelot and archont frontline are pretty hard to deal with despite the constant whines of the traditionnal protoss lobby.
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Austria24422 Posts
Good stuff this week. Disruptors are too strong in PvP, the matchup is good otherwise. They will still be extremely powerful units, but not to the ridiculous extent they are right now.
As for tanks, dunno. I don't mind flying tanks actually. I'm weird like that.
Basically all big topics people were talking about are addressed though, that makes me happy.
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On February 05 2016 17:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2016 15:39 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On February 05 2016 07:12 Charoisaur wrote:
No comment on ultras? Didn't he see byun vs curious?
It's just bad design when two armies are trading even the entire game then suddenly ultras pop and it's gg.
it just feels like terran is playing on a timer every game
When you dont play for the lategame and you put all your resources into trying to kill your opponent you can't complain when you lose when your opponent actually reaches lategame. Byun was at like 25 workers or something, was too focussed on ending the game in the midgame to even make more cc's or infrastructure to deal with ultras. And he was behind from the very start anyway. Stop whining, he got outplayed. lol you aren't serious? So terrans should just sit in their base and turtle to ghost liberator without doing anything? You know that zerg then just takes the entire map and wins the game. There is a reason why every single terran tries to win in midgame. You can believe me I've watched a ton of lotv games and I haven't seen a SINGLE high level tvz where ultras came out and the zerg didn't win unless the terran was already massively ahead. ( well, except ty - soulkey but that doesn't count because soulkey didn't know vipers exist) they just don't have a real counter to ultras, ghosts work vs ultras in low numbers but vs 10+ ultras with baneling infestor support they are not enough. Liberators get invalidated by vipers or just by attacking somewhere else. so thors? BCs? Stop trolling. terran plays at a timer at the moment in this matchup like during BL/infestor and this time there are also biased zergs like you that say: it's all fine terran has enough ways to beat it, or: you let me get there so I deserve to win. And before anyone comes and says I'm just salty about my ladder losses; no tvz is my best matchup with 70% winrate because I allin every game but the way the matchup plays is just bullshit atm.
No, you sound like a troll to me really, if you think Byun should have had a chance vs Curious that game.
He had bad economy and no infrastructure to actually produce a lot of ghosts/libs.
And yes the reason terran goes for heavy midgame pressure is because it is their strongest point in the game.
It's completely viable way to play buy you will get crushed in the lategame.
I wont deny that zerg isn't stronger then terran in the lategame but saying it's unbeatable is just dumb.
Terran currently had an slight advantage in the midgame and zerg in the lategame.
If you want to nerf zerg lategame you have to buff their midgame.
But I dont think terran will ever be happy unless they have 60%+ winrate in all matchups
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EPT
