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On January 21 2016 14:23 insitelol wrote:
Don't really see any connection with new WCS system and the shrinking of the scene. It's just inevitable. Deal with it. Even with billions of dollars and tournaments this game doesn't attract that much attention to become mainstream. What's happening to korean scene is a natural process. BW infrastructure was huge. SC2 doesn't need it. But people tend to stick to old. Yes, it takes some time to realise the truth. WCS 2016 system is the last thing to blame. Totally overhyped. Peace.
Then again, people are asking for serious games again and we might have a surge of interest in rts again. If not, we still like rts games and sc2 is the biggest scene no matter how small it goes, we'll support it.
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It's the old adage, consumers will vote with their feet. Statistically speaking very few people will actually go on forums/reddit etc to complain and or offer suggestions. I love broodwar but I was never a 1v1 fanatic or watch any of the korean scene, proud player of BGH maps with clan mates or pubs, came into sc2 and never been so frustrated in my life. Couldn't split marines to save myself so I couldn't really play terran, kept missing a few key force fields as protoss which cost me the game so got frustrated/angry/bitter-nerd-tears and tried zerg, I didn't mind zerg, got to diamond before I quit because I knew in my head what to do but I was constantly unable to do it due to just being too slow on microing/macroing etc. As I put more hours into it the game started to feel more like a job then something to do for fun, so I left and found other games to play.
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Sweden1903 Posts
I don't know about this, I'm unsure if the changes really effect low-mid tier koreans as much as stuchiu makes it sound. If so why does he fail to mention why, the only two changes that are bad for koreans is:
1) their inability to travel to foreign events that are not global Circuit (for example IEM/Dreamhack and so on) how low-mid level koreans are suffering from that is somthing I don't get. Since when were low-mid level koreans paying loads of money in travel and living expenses to gamble at winning it big? The examples are few.
2) Their inability to change region and play in WCS by living in EU or NA, here also we have few examples of low-mid tier koreans doing this. The only example I have on top of my head is Duckdeok.
Jaedong, Polt, Jjakji, MC, Bomber, MMA, True and Dear are all players that did this that are not low-mid tier koreans, most of them were champions in korea Before making the transition.
The opportunities for top tier koreans are fewer now, it hurts that scene for sure but since when were it a healthy sign that massive amounts of the korean champions were migrating to other areas?
In my mind a better spin on that article would have been how the retirements of these champions and the lack of new budding champions is likely to lead to less viewers and less fans. The scene has lost great players that had Amazing storylines and new players don't get the as many chances to forge similar stories of their own. This will shrink the same and lessen the interest in the game for spectators. Flash retiring is bound to lead to less viewership, if no one steps up to fill his shoes that is a hard blow for the scene but not in the way Stuchiu wrote.
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On January 21 2016 16:49 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't know about this, I'm unsure if the changes really effect low-mid tier koreans as much as stuchiu makes it sound. If so why does he fail to mention why, the only two changes that are bad for koreans is:
1) their inability to travel to foreign events that are not global Circuit (for example IEM/Dreamhack and so on) how low-mid level koreans are suffering from that is somthing I don't get. Since when were low-mid level koreans paying loads of money in travel and living expenses to gamble at winning it big? The examples are few.
2) Their inability to change region and play in WCS by living in EU or NA, here also we have few examples of low-mid tier koreans doing this. The only example I have on top of my head is Duckdeok.
Jaedong, Polt, Jjakji, MC, Bomber, MMA, True and Dear are all players that did this that are not low-mid tier koreans, most of them were champions in korea Before making the transition.
The opportunities for top tier koreans are fewer now, it hurts that scene for sure but since when were it a healthy sign that massive amounts of the korean champions were migrating to other areas?
In my mind a better spin on that article would have been how the retirements of these champions and the lack of new budding champions is likely to lead to less viewers and less fans. The scene has lost great players that had Amazing storylines and new players don't get the as many chances to forge similar stories of their own. This will shrink the same and lessen the interest in the game for spectators. Flash retiring is bound to lead to less viewership, if no one steps up to fill his shoes that is a hard blow for the scene but not in the way Stuchiu wrote.
I really liked the Axiom guys but they were mid-tier and went to foreign events and if the team existed nowerdsys they wouldn't be able to. Armani is an example of another player that's been to a foreign events. HerO and TaeJa made a name for themselves playing in foreign events and now they can't play them. Pigbaby, Terminator, Reality all went to foreign events last year as well. So while top-tier have been going to foreign events there's been got a few mid-low tier going as well.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On January 21 2016 17:23 AWalker9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 16:49 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't know about this, I'm unsure if the changes really effect low-mid tier koreans as much as stuchiu makes it sound. If so why does he fail to mention why, the only two changes that are bad for koreans is:
1) their inability to travel to foreign events that are not global Circuit (for example IEM/Dreamhack and so on) how low-mid level koreans are suffering from that is somthing I don't get. Since when were low-mid level koreans paying loads of money in travel and living expenses to gamble at winning it big? The examples are few.
2) Their inability to change region and play in WCS by living in EU or NA, here also we have few examples of low-mid tier koreans doing this. The only example I have on top of my head is Duckdeok.
Jaedong, Polt, Jjakji, MC, Bomber, MMA, True and Dear are all players that did this that are not low-mid tier koreans, most of them were champions in korea Before making the transition.
The opportunities for top tier koreans are fewer now, it hurts that scene for sure but since when were it a healthy sign that massive amounts of the korean champions were migrating to other areas?
In my mind a better spin on that article would have been how the retirements of these champions and the lack of new budding champions is likely to lead to less viewers and less fans. The scene has lost great players that had Amazing storylines and new players don't get the as many chances to forge similar stories of their own. This will shrink the same and lessen the interest in the game for spectators. Flash retiring is bound to lead to less viewership, if no one steps up to fill his shoes that is a hard blow for the scene but not in the way Stuchiu wrote.
I really liked the Axiom guys but they were mid-tier and went to foreign events and if the team existed nowerdsys they wouldn't be able to. Armani is an example of another player that's been to a foreign events. HerO and TaeJa made a name for themselves playing in foreign events and now they can't play them. Pigbaby, Terminator, Reality all went to foreign events last year as well. So while top-tier have been going to foreign events there's been got a few mid-low tier going as well.
DeParture and KeeN won at Gfinity Summer events, while First got a silver and MyuNgSiK got top 4; Losira won at Asus ROG while The Tomato One Who Must Not Be Named also did OK; a whole host of people went to various Dreamhacks / IEMs.
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Starcraft 2 on ESPN
Oh wait it's an article about SC2 is dying on ESPN...
On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote:
If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die.
Totally agree to this.
This is even more true since the article is on ESPN... Spreading the impression of "ded gam" into wider audience is not the best thing for the longevity of the game.
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On January 21 2016 18:30 Yiome wrote:Starcraft 2 on ESPN Oh wait it's an article about SC2 is dying on ESPN... Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote:
If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. Totally agree to this. This is even more true since the article is on ESPN... Spreading the impression of "ded gam" into wider audience is not the best thing for the longevity of the game.
Sigh, I guess we have to find that silver lining even within a very bleak prospect for SC2. I Sincerely hope something positive somehow materializes to revitalize the scene.
Money is everything in the case of SC2, we desperately need a Sonic (one with good ethics and business practices) in SC2, to bolster the Korean SC2 with a much needed injection of wealth and talent.
More Sponsors -> More Talent -> More Money -> More Spongsors rinse and repeat.
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On January 21 2016 18:30 Yiome wrote:Starcraft 2 on ESPN Oh wait it's an article about SC2 is dying on ESPN... Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote:
If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. Totally agree to this. This is even more true since the article is on ESPN... Spreading the impression of "ded gam" into wider audience is not the best thing for the longevity of the game.
I also felt it was a bit sensationalist but I guess that's what journalism is... I'd still argue getting an article (even about the struggles) is better than no article.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Not that Korean SC2 scene is doing good for themselves. I mean, we all remember what hate was happening the last year for GSL. And now S2SL probably hired managers from GSL to boost their English stream numbers 
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On January 21 2016 07:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 07:11 OtherWorld wrote:On January 21 2016 06:44 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote:
If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying". Truer words have rarely been spoken. I liked the article, but felt like it did avoid the harsh but factual truth : SC2 is not declining because of the WCS changes, SC2 is not declining because of the lack of new players. These are merely symptoms, but the origin of the problem is elsewhere. It lies within SC2 itself. it does not matter how good SC2 is. the entire genre is toast.. its larger than SC2 or Blizzard or even ATVI. ATVI can not stop sociological trends. 13 to 16 year olds are playing Mobile Strike, Clash of Clans, and Boom Beach. Technological improvements have given players options that did not exist in 1999. in 1999 the only way to have your giant army fight another guys painstakingly built giant army was by owning a desktop PC... those days are long since gone. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rMNqpoQ.jpg) As far as people trying to say "perception is reality" when it comes to repeatedly hearing about the decline of SC2. In the english-speaking world SC2 is declining about as fast as Borderlands. No one on the Gearbox site is talking about the decline of Borderlands.
So...
To you, a (1) competitive, (2) multiplayer-based game, which (3) was hyped and lionized thanks to its predecessor, (4) had the support of an existing scene and infrastructure, (5) had two expansions to correct mistakes and flaws of the original game, and (6) is the product of one of the biggest studio on the planet declining as fast as a (1) non-competitive (2) singleplayer-based game, which (3) was the start of a new, unknown franchise, (4) had a successor in the franchise (=less interest over time), (5) had no expansions to correct mistakes and flaws of the original game, and (6) is the product of a then-unknown studio, is normal? SC2 declining as fast as Borderlands is normal? A game which is meant, by its very essence, to "never" decline declining as fast as a game which is meant to decline in ~2 or 3 years is normal?
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There were things like the 3 base eco and units like Colosus and others that were meant to make it easier for new players but the result was that BW fans got alienated in time, and the game wasn't casual enough to attract vast numbers of new fans.
With LOTV i think they decided to go the right way, but it might prove to be to late.
EDIT: quote fail
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On January 21 2016 19:17 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 07:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On January 21 2016 07:11 OtherWorld wrote:On January 21 2016 06:44 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote:
If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying". Truer words have rarely been spoken. I liked the article, but felt like it did avoid the harsh but factual truth : SC2 is not declining because of the WCS changes, SC2 is not declining because of the lack of new players. These are merely symptoms, but the origin of the problem is elsewhere. It lies within SC2 itself. it does not matter how good SC2 is. the entire genre is toast.. its larger than SC2 or Blizzard or even ATVI. ATVI can not stop sociological trends. 13 to 16 year olds are playing Mobile Strike, Clash of Clans, and Boom Beach. Technological improvements have given players options that did not exist in 1999. in 1999 the only way to have your giant army fight another guys painstakingly built giant army was by owning a desktop PC... those days are long since gone. As far as people trying to say "perception is reality" when it comes to repeatedly hearing about the decline of SC2. In the english-speaking world SC2 is declining about as fast as Borderlands. No one on the Gearbox site is talking about the decline of Borderlands. So... To you, a (1) competitive, (2) multiplayer-based game, which (3) was hyped and lionized thanks to its predecessor, (4) had the support of an existing scene and infrastructure, (5) had two expansions to correct mistakes and flaws of the original game, and (6) is the product of one of the biggest studio on the planet declining as fast as a (1) non-competitive (2) singleplayer-based game, which (3) was the start of a new, unknown franchise, (4) had a successor in the franchise (=less interest over time), (5) had no expansions to correct mistakes and flaws of the original game, and (6) is the product of a then-unknown studio, is normal? SC2 declining as fast as Borderlands is normal? A game which is meant, by its very essence, to "never" decline declining as fast as a game which is meant to decline in ~2 or 3 years is normal?
JimmyJRaynor has the stance that it's impossible for RTS to stay at the top. I heavily disagree with him, but I think he has a point when it comes to Starcraft and RTS games of that kind.
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the new wcs system is absolute bollocks
it penalizes the good players for no other reason that they are good. in the mean time, mediocre, "personality" driven foreigners live comfortably off twitch streams and wcs welfare. blizzard has essentially made sure that the competitive scene for foreigners is as watered down as possible. disgusting
in the mean time if you are korean, you are simply not allowed to play starcraft professional on equal footing as someone from another country. a nice big middle finger from blizzard to the country which made starcraft what it was. what a fucking joke
absolutely disgusting changes all around and i will personally try to boycott every wcs event which i can. how can you take these events seriously when you know that the best players are purposely kept away from them, simply because they're good? if koreans weren't so good at the game, then there wouldn't be region locking. it's disgustingly simple
i almost regret buying LOTV, but i do want to support the RTS scene more than the crappy MOBAs which everyone else seems to like.
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Slightly of topic but was there any given reason for why there are less competitions in Korea? With the new WCS system one would think that Blizz would sponsor the Korean scene to get more opportunities and not less.
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well the fact that bans and warnings aren't handed out for ppl pointing out that the game is dead is pretty clear evidence that the game is dead. just like that time when ppl rightfully pointed out that gglord and winfestors were dumb and skill-less and ruining the game got punished, only to of course be vindicated as tl writers pointed out that gglord and winfestors were dumb. of course by that time the worst patch of all time had already killed WOL and wiped out a huge chunk of fans, and it was going to be difficult to ever recover.
definitely dont like WCS changes, fewer GSLs means fewer events to keep my interest. had been watching GSL from time to time before then, now with the changes plus all the retirements it caused don't really see much to hold my interest
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On January 21 2016 19:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:
There were things like the 3 base eco and units like Colosus and others that were meant to make it easier for new players but the result was that BW fans got alienated in time, and the game wasn't casual enough to attract vast numbers of new fans.
With LOTV i think they decided to go the right way, but it might prove to be to late.
EDIT: quote fail
None of that matters. You don't make an RTS game that can be loved by casuals by introducing certain, cool-looking units, that's not even close to the problem. You gotta deal with much more fundamental problems.
- massive amount macromanagement necessary
- insanely complex control-tools necessary that are hidden all over the keyboard
- core gameplay like combats that very often happen offscreen
- BO and timing reliance which makes it impossible to experience even half of the content because you are dying left and right
- massive anxiety to go out on the map through fog of war with defensive overcompensation
- strategical noob-traps everywhere; the game becomes unwinable if you don't know or cannot manage key units like queens or the MsC
- not enough motivation to interact to begin with and then interaction often turns into a slippery slope of snowballing advantages, causing fear of interaction to begin with
LotV is just an escalation of what softcore players already cannot deal with. They get more money they can't spend, faster units they can't handle, more ways to fuck up the economy which they don't have the reaction time to prevent and less resources per base which they don't know how to compensate for because they are still scared to leave their main.
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On January 21 2016 19:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 19:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:
There were things like the 3 base eco and units like Colosus and others that were meant to make it easier for new players but the result was that BW fans got alienated in time, and the game wasn't casual enough to attract vast numbers of new fans.
With LOTV i think they decided to go the right way, but it might prove to be to late.
EDIT: quote fail None of that matters. You don't make an RTS game that can be loved by casuals by introducing certain, cool-looking units, that's not even close to the problem. You gotta deal with much more fundamental problems. - massive amount macromanagement necessary - insanely complex control-tools necessary that are hidden all over the keyboard - core gameplay like combats that very often happen offscreen - BO and timing reliance which makes it impossible to experience even half of the content because you are dying left and right - massive anxiety to go out on the map through fog of war with defensive overcompensation - strategical noob-traps everywhere; the game becomes unwinable if you don't know or cannot manage key units like queens or the MsC - not enough motivation to interact to begin with and then interaction often turns into a slippery slope of snowballing advantages, causing fear of interaction to begin with LotV is just an escalation of what softcore players already cannot deal with. They get more money they can't spend, faster units they can't handle, more ways to fuck up the economy which they don't have the reaction time to prevent and less resources per base which they don't know how to compensate for because they are still scared to leave their main.
Yes they do matter, a lot actually, just wasn't enough. Instead of expanding 5 times, you could do it just 3 times, and have the resources be enough to do everything you want. Cool units that are easy to control are also a major factor. But like i said, it wasn't enough for most casuals, and it was enough to piss of the existing BW fans.
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On January 21 2016 10:04 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 07:07 FuzzyJAM wrote:On January 21 2016 06:44 Djzapz wrote:On January 21 2016 06:39 LastManProductions wrote:
If people keep saying SC2 will die, it will die. I think people are saying SC2 is dying because it is. I don't know that you can successfully argue that it goes the other way around. If you're actually under the impression that the "SC2 is dying" concern is coming from no where and it has no foundation in reality, and that the concern by itself is undermining the game, you've got some serious work to do to prove that. Let me say it this way: games that are actually doing good don't have that systemic issue of passionate players raising the concerns about the game "dying". But SC2 has been "dying" since release. Of course, the boy who cried wolf did eventually meet a wolf. What? Were you around when the game was released? The hype was unreal, but justified. The game was great. The tournaments were awesome. I used to wake up quite early to catch the GSL. I used to buy tickets to the GSL! Me Mr. Cheapskate buying passes to tournaments because they were so much fun to watch. I used to ladder regularly too. I used to attend and play in local lans. But then people discovered the Infestor, discovered Vortex, basically discovered the late game and how to get their safely and the game went to crap. The late game units were poorly balanced and designed. For instances Brood Lords were too strong, Ultralisks too weak and both were boring. And Blizzard showed a completely inability to make reasonable balance and game design changes to fix that. Then HOTS came out, and Blizzard did the Warhound. They had no idea what they were doing, and still don't. And here we are today. SC2 needs a new designed team. Rather it needed one since 2011. It might be too late. So many other games simply don't have the design problems that SC2 has that make SC2 really frustrating to play. But it didn't used to be like this. It used to be easier to play. And I think the vast majority of people who played WOL would agree, and say that WOL was easier to play than LOTV today. Ironic that the game used to be easier play when Blizzard has been trying to make it easier to play. New design team please.
Yeah, I was here when the game was released. Were you?
WoL was absolutely not a fantastic game at release. It was fun for me, but let's not pretend the 5Rax Reaper to BitByBit Era was a time of great design. It was 2011 (the time you're saying everything went wrong) that really saw the game develop into something worthwhile.
On January 21 2016 19:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 19:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:
There were things like the 3 base eco and units like Colosus and others that were meant to make it easier for new players but the result was that BW fans got alienated in time, and the game wasn't casual enough to attract vast numbers of new fans.
With LOTV i think they decided to go the right way, but it might prove to be to late.
EDIT: quote fail None of that matters. You don't make an RTS game that can be loved by casuals by introducing certain, cool-looking units, that's not even close to the problem. You gotta deal with much more fundamental problems. - massive amount macromanagement necessary - insanely complex control-tools necessary that are hidden all over the keyboard - core gameplay like combats that very often happen offscreen - BO and timing reliance which makes it impossible to experience even half of the content because you are dying left and right - massive anxiety to go out on the map through fog of war with defensive overcompensation - strategical noob-traps everywhere; the game becomes unwinable if you don't know or cannot manage key units like queens or the MsC - not enough motivation to interact to begin with and then interaction often turns into a slippery slope of snowballing advantages, causing fear of interaction to begin with LotV is just an escalation of what softcore players already cannot deal with. They get more money they can't spend, faster units they can't handle, more ways to fuck up the economy which they don't have the reaction time to prevent and less resources per base which they don't know how to compensate for because they are still scared to leave their main.
Isn't that mostly just the nature of competitive RTS though? It's going to be really hard to play if it's going to have any room for distinction at the professional level. Maybe some things could be mitigated, sure, but ultimately SC2 is always going to be too difficult for the average player who doesn't want to learn the latest BO or work at 100+APM or play alone.
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Maybe Blizzard's weird WCS decisions will help BroodWar heat up again...and I'm ok with that :D. I had a blast watching Tastosis cast Effort vs Zero. Now if only some other BW legends could come back to bring some decent competition again. Maybe MC or Flash will join the BW scene..one can dream  .
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On January 21 2016 15:14 NikaLogy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 14:44 ErectedZenith wrote:
Let's be honest here, Blizzard fucked themselves pretty hard by screwing up their PR trying to sue Kespa/OGN/MBC for broadcasting BW.
Meanwhile, OGN had to look for lifeline in LoL.
And to be honest Blizzard didn't even try to emulate BW's success in gameplay (not talking about MBS, UUS, Automine) but in their troop movement and offer more harassment option (which BW fans liked) so ofc the original fans would be turned off.
Blizzard could have relied on SC2 being number 1 esport in the west until they completely ceased to innovate the game while DotA 2, CS:GO, and CoD taking over the new esport talent.
Now the game is pretty much on Blizzard's life support and to be frank; Hearthstone, Heroes, and Overwatch will make Blizzard more money than SC2 in the long run. Blizzard only sued Kespa and OGN because they aggresively tried to claim the sole rights for starcraft in Korea, basically attacking Blizzards copyright. They made a huge mistake and tried stepping on EXTREMELY shaky legal grounds, and they fucked themselves over. Blizzard shouldnt be blamed for protecting their rights to their own game.
Which ended up fucking up SC2's success.
They should have absolutely laid low.
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EPT
