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On January 09 2016 13:12 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:09 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:03 playa wrote:
P vs Z numbers could be at 20% win rate, and you'd keep hearing "let's wait and see" until one month (if ever) it reaches 45% win rate. Then, time to pop in and say "looks like you nubs finally figured out how to play." Kim has the greatest job: if the numbers show imbalance, well, need more time, obviously; if numbers are close to 50%, well, pat on the back to self. The lack of objectivity and authority from more knowledgeable people makes this game impossible to be optimistic about. In my opinion I strongly disagree. Game is young and needs time. Looking at korea I am very optimistic about future of balance. All protoss and terran currently win in GSL. Yesterday 2x ZvT and both time Terran won despite zerg being favorite. I remember in the beginning in LOTV when Zerg was by far the worst race ever in existence. Then Zerg heroes Fruitdealer and Nestea emerged. They showed us the way. We zerg players practiced hard and adapted and this is why we have a thick skin now and look like strong monsters. In time Protoss will adept. They had an easy time and now they need to train a bit more. It is all good  Are you saying Nestea and FruitDealer are coming back to own LotV? I hope so!
That would be sooooo sweet. I love both of them, but they are very old now and I haven't heard anything of Fruitdealer in a very long time.
The only thing that would be even better is Jaedong winning the GSL. That is my favorite dream to believe in haha 
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On January 09 2016 11:28 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 11:21 Cascade wrote:
So many reasons I don't like the suggested game speed change. I think I'll go with one of the more entertaining, tongue in cheek, ones here.
1998-2010: starcraft is played on fastest. 3rd party software measure APM through correcting the in-game time (measured on normal speed) to fastest.
2010: 2015: starcraft2 is played on faster. Blizzard catches up on people caring about APM, and now shows it after games, but as if the game was played on normal speed. Blizzard APM is off. 3rd party software correct APM to be displayed accurately for faster.
end of 2015: After 5 years, blizzard patches the APM after games, displaying actual APM in faster mode. After a total of 17 years, blizzard now shows the APM in "faster" minutes, where the game is actually played.
januray 2016: After the APM has finally caught up to the game being played on faster, blizzard now considers changing game speed from faster to normal. Good to see that people still focus on the MOST IMPORTANT things in the game
"Tongue in cheek" is this smilie:  and it means that I am trying to make a joke or point out something funny rather than making a serious argument.
But thanks for reading the part that you found controversial and replying to that alone.
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On January 09 2016 13:09 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:03 playa wrote:
P vs Z numbers could be at 20% win rate, and you'd keep hearing "let's wait and see" until one month (if ever) it reaches 45% win rate. Then, time to pop in and say "looks like you nubs finally figured out how to play." Kim has the greatest job: if the numbers show imbalance, well, need more time, obviously; if numbers are close to 50%, well, pat on the back to self. The lack of objectivity and authority from more knowledgeable people makes this game impossible to be optimistic about. In my opinion I strongly disagree. Game is young and needs time. Looking at korea I am very optimistic about future of balance. I remember in the beginning in LOTV when Zerg was by far the worst race ever in existence. Then Zerg heroes Fruitdealer and Nestea emerged. They showed us the way. We zerg players practiced hard and adapted and this is why we have a thick skin now and look like strong monsters. In time Protoss will adept. They had an easy time and now they need to train a bit more. It is all good
I refused to play/buy LotV due to them making the easiest race even EASIER and still not addressing Toss' biggest problem: handling mutas. Everything that is being talked about now, as well as winrates, should have been incredibly obvious to any GM player, during the first stages of beta. Shoot, any diamond player should have known better.
Seriously, phoenix are good? Need good micro. Need great scouting. Need to invest in super expensive building/upgrades for them. Yet Parasitic Bomb is OK? Some asymmetrical balance... Toss gets 1 click annihilation of ground, you take air! This game is a joke.
Worse than the horrendous balance due to not addressing the real issues (not even a new unit that shoots up for Toss, etc), is the focus on balance. Man, if only I make the adept strong enough and it becomes the only way to play the game, I might be able to get close to 45%... There is no longer any strategy in this game due to a desperation from a team to find an easy way to get close to 50% win rate.
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On January 09 2016 13:17 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:09 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:03 playa wrote:
P vs Z numbers could be at 20% win rate, and you'd keep hearing "let's wait and see" until one month (if ever) it reaches 45% win rate. Then, time to pop in and say "looks like you nubs finally figured out how to play." Kim has the greatest job: if the numbers show imbalance, well, need more time, obviously; if numbers are close to 50%, well, pat on the back to self. The lack of objectivity and authority from more knowledgeable people makes this game impossible to be optimistic about. In my opinion I strongly disagree. Game is young and needs time. Looking at korea I am very optimistic about future of balance. I remember in the beginning in LOTV when Zerg was by far the worst race ever in existence. Then Zerg heroes Fruitdealer and Nestea emerged. They showed us the way. We zerg players practiced hard and adapted and this is why we have a thick skin now and look like strong monsters. In time Protoss will adept. They had an easy time and now they need to train a bit more. It is all good I refused to play/buy LotV due to them making the easiest race even EASIER and still not addressing Toss' biggest problem: handling mutas. Everything that is being talked about now, as well as winrates, should have been incredibly obvious to any GM player, during the first stages of beta. Shoot, any diamond player should have known better. Seriously, phoenix are good? Need good micro. Need great scouting. Need to invest in super expensive building/upgrades for them. Yet Parasitic Bomb is OK? Some asymmetrical balance... Toss gets 1 click annihilation of ground, you take air! This game is a joke. Worse than the horrendous balance due to not addressing the real issues (not even a new unit that shoots up for Toss, etc), is the focus on balance. Man, if only I make the adept strong enough and it becomes the only way to play the game, I might be able to get close to 45%... There is no longer any strategy in this game due to a desperation from a team to find an easy way to get close to 50% win rate.
Ok you made a reasonable point with your post and I strongly agree now. I did not realize before your post that zerg was easiest race.
I was blinded by my own race before. Now I understand it better and will join you in your mission to nerf zerg and buff protoss.
We should add a new protoss unit that shoots "up" like you say. What is your vision of this unit? Let's discuss it
My propose to nerf muta is that zerg is only allowed to have 10 mutalisk for each spire. So zerg cannot build too many strong mutas
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On January 09 2016 13:22 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:17 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:09 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:03 playa wrote:
P vs Z numbers could be at 20% win rate, and you'd keep hearing "let's wait and see" until one month (if ever) it reaches 45% win rate. Then, time to pop in and say "looks like you nubs finally figured out how to play." Kim has the greatest job: if the numbers show imbalance, well, need more time, obviously; if numbers are close to 50%, well, pat on the back to self. The lack of objectivity and authority from more knowledgeable people makes this game impossible to be optimistic about. In my opinion I strongly disagree. Game is young and needs time. Looking at korea I am very optimistic about future of balance. I remember in the beginning in LOTV when Zerg was by far the worst race ever in existence. Then Zerg heroes Fruitdealer and Nestea emerged. They showed us the way. We zerg players practiced hard and adapted and this is why we have a thick skin now and look like strong monsters. In time Protoss will adept. They had an easy time and now they need to train a bit more. It is all good I refused to play/buy LotV due to them making the easiest race even EASIER and still not addressing Toss' biggest problem: handling mutas. Everything that is being talked about now, as well as winrates, should have been incredibly obvious to any GM player, during the first stages of beta. Shoot, any diamond player should have known better. Seriously, phoenix are good? Need good micro. Need great scouting. Need to invest in super expensive building/upgrades for them. Yet Parasitic Bomb is OK? Some asymmetrical balance... Toss gets 1 click annihilation of ground, you take air! This game is a joke. Worse than the horrendous balance due to not addressing the real issues (not even a new unit that shoots up for Toss, etc), is the focus on balance. Man, if only I make the adept strong enough and it becomes the only way to play the game, I might be able to get close to 45%... There is no longer any strategy in this game due to a desperation from a team to find an easy way to get close to 50% win rate. Ok you made a reasonable point with your post and I strongly agree now. I did not realize before your post that zerg was easiest race. I was blinded by my own race before. Now I understand it better and will join you in your mission to nerf zerg and buff protoss. We should add a new protoss unit that shoots "up" like you say. What is your vision of this unit? Let's discuss it My propose to nerf muta is that zerg is only allowed to have 10 mutalisk for each spire. So zerg cannot build too many strong mutas
While your sarcasm is cute, I've yet to be surprised by anything in LotV. Every reason given for not playing beforehand has materialized. Many top GM zergs, in HotS, weren't even using hotkeys. I mean ANY hotkeys. The discrepancy in skill needed between the races needed to be brought a lot closer. Somehow, it went the other direction. This is not acceptable/viable.
D Kim could be in bronze league and say mutas should do 500 damage a hit... if so, that's what would happen and the rhetoric would be the same. It wouldn't matter if you're Flash and you offer a retort, you would simply be called biased by him. Non Korean streamers have a shtick and his isn't much different.
It's not about proposals, as it's a moot point with this regime. It's about only talking about boycotting or putting pressure on them to find a new team/people. This game has gone nothing but downhill. The only good idea was trying to stop 4 gate. This team couldn't even get me to play more than 10 beta games... that's how unappealing and trashy this game should be from a Toss perspective.
None of our new units even filled a void. Just here's some random stuff, while other races get buffs (even if randomly happened). If I could ask for one thing to be in the game, just one thing. It would actually be scourges. I'm not biased... I had no problem mentioning other races I didn't play being much harder in BW; ie., I thought Zerg was the hardest.
Watching this game just isn't fun, without scourges. It's not fun to play either. There's no risk/reward. Super warp prisms just living for eternity. I don't like anything about this game. With the viewership numbers... those who do like something have been a minority for a while.
Stop talking about balance as if it matters. Talk about balance once you force them to fire people...
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On January 09 2016 13:34 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:22 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:17 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:09 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:03 playa wrote:
P vs Z numbers could be at 20% win rate, and you'd keep hearing "let's wait and see" until one month (if ever) it reaches 45% win rate. Then, time to pop in and say "looks like you nubs finally figured out how to play." Kim has the greatest job: if the numbers show imbalance, well, need more time, obviously; if numbers are close to 50%, well, pat on the back to self. The lack of objectivity and authority from more knowledgeable people makes this game impossible to be optimistic about. In my opinion I strongly disagree. Game is young and needs time. Looking at korea I am very optimistic about future of balance. I remember in the beginning in LOTV when Zerg was by far the worst race ever in existence. Then Zerg heroes Fruitdealer and Nestea emerged. They showed us the way. We zerg players practiced hard and adapted and this is why we have a thick skin now and look like strong monsters. In time Protoss will adept. They had an easy time and now they need to train a bit more. It is all good I refused to play/buy LotV due to them making the easiest race even EASIER and still not addressing Toss' biggest problem: handling mutas. Everything that is being talked about now, as well as winrates, should have been incredibly obvious to any GM player, during the first stages of beta. Shoot, any diamond player should have known better. Seriously, phoenix are good? Need good micro. Need great scouting. Need to invest in super expensive building/upgrades for them. Yet Parasitic Bomb is OK? Some asymmetrical balance... Toss gets 1 click annihilation of ground, you take air! This game is a joke. Worse than the horrendous balance due to not addressing the real issues (not even a new unit that shoots up for Toss, etc), is the focus on balance. Man, if only I make the adept strong enough and it becomes the only way to play the game, I might be able to get close to 45%... There is no longer any strategy in this game due to a desperation from a team to find an easy way to get close to 50% win rate. Ok you made a reasonable point with your post and I strongly agree now. I did not realize before your post that zerg was easiest race. I was blinded by my own race before. Now I understand it better and will join you in your mission to nerf zerg and buff protoss. We should add a new protoss unit that shoots "up" like you say. What is your vision of this unit? Let's discuss it My propose to nerf muta is that zerg is only allowed to have 10 mutalisk for each spire. So zerg cannot build too many strong mutas While your sarcasm is cute, I've yet to be surprised by anything in LotV. Every reason given for not playing beforehand has materialized. Many top GM zergs, in HotS, weren't even using hotkeys. I mean ANY hotkeys. The discrepancy in skill needed between the races needed to be brought a lot closer. Somehow, it went the other direction. This is not acceptable/viable. D Kim could be in bronze league and say mutas should do 500 damage a hit... if so, that's what would happen and the rhetoric would be the same. It wouldn't matter if you're Flash and you offer a retort, you would simply be called biased by him. Non Korean streamers have a shtick and his isn't much different. It's not about proposals, as it's a moot point with this regime. It's about only talking about boycotting or putting pressure on them to find a new team/people. This game has gone nothing but downhill. The only good idea was trying to stop 4 gate. This team couldn't even get me to play more than 10 beta games... that's how unappealing and trashy this game should be from a Toss perspective. None of our new units even filled a void. Just here's some random stuff, while other races get buffs (even if randomly happened). If I could ask for one thing to be in the game, just one thing. It would actually be scourges. I'm not biased... I had no problem mentioning other races I didn't play being much harder in BW; ie., I thought Zerg was the hardest. Watching this game just isn't fun, without scourges. It's not fun to play either. There's no risk/reward. Super warp prisms just living for eternity. I don't like anything about this game. With the viewership numbers... those who do like something have been a minority for a while. Stop talking about balance as it matters. Talk about balance once you force them to fire people...
It was not joke. I really mean what I was saying. I am 100% on your side. I am converted. I said to myself "what if I am wrong and others are actually more right than I?".
Then what can we do. What would you do if you sit in the chair?
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I just have to say nerfing the photon overcharge to 50 mana will render it much more useless because pylons are so easy to destroy.
I do agree it is a cheesy tactic to rush pylon overcharge at the enemy base, but Protoss needs something to defend in the early game, and unless Blizzard can re-tool the Protoss units so that PO can be removed from the game, it or something like it will have to stay to give Protoss any chance of surviving early game.
What if PO can only be cast at pylons near a Nexus or Gateway? This would allow it to keep its defensive nature while removing the annoying pylon spamming at the enemy's base. Since the pylon energy field's color is already an in-game indicator of which pylons are near a gateway or nexus it should be a logical addition to implement.
Also, since Protoss can no longer warp in on higher ground even with vision, there is no need for the reduced pylon energy field radius which was brought in because of that. Blizzard may want to consider making this change to PO while increasing pylon radius to allow pylons near the ramp to defend even if there is no gateway there.
Lastly, if Blizzard is going to increase the energy cost to 50 they should seriously consider increasing the range, duration and strength of PO and increasing the health of pylons because as is they are easy to destroy.
If Blizzard changes PO to only work on pylons near gateways and nexii they may not need to nerf Adepts as harassment with them is much more costly, micro-intensive and exciting to watch than pylon spam in my view.
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On January 09 2016 13:44 Perdac Curall wrote:
I just have to say nerfing the photon overcharge to 50 mana will render it much more useless because pylons are so easy to destroy.
I do agree it is a cheesy tactic to rush pylon overcharge at the enemy base, but Protoss needs something to defend in the early game, and unless Blizzard can re-tool the Protoss units so that PO can be removed from the game, it or something like it will have to stay to give Protoss any chance of surviving early game.
What if PO can only be cast at pylons near a Nexus or Gateway? This would allow it to keep its defensive nature while removing the annoying pylon spamming at the enemy's base. Since the pylon energy field's color is already an in-game indicator of which pylons are near a gateway or nexus it should be a logical addition to implement.
Also, since Protoss can no longer warp in on higher ground even with vision, there is no need for the reduced pylon energy field radius which was brought in because of that. Blizzard may want to consider making this change to PO while increasing pylon radius to allow pylons near the ramp to defend even if there is no gateway there.
Lastly, if Blizzard is going to increase the energy cost to 50 they should seriously consider increasing the range, duration and strength of PO and increasing the health of pylons because as is they are easy to destroy.
If Blizzard changes PO to only work on pylons near gateways and nexii they may not need to nerf Adepts as harassment with them is much more costly, micro-intensive and exciting to watch than pylon spam in my view.
Maybe Pylon Overcharge could do extra damage versus zerg units, but less damage to normal units like terran have?
20 damage versus normal units
+30 damage versus Zerg units and splash damage in air versus zerg air units.
It would help protoss versus zerg winrate and zerg players cannot just build muta because protoss has stronger overcharge on pylons that can splash the mutalisks that protoss has hard time to deal with
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Remember when Protoss Gateway units were stronger in the early game than the early-game units of other races?
Now the discussion has shifted to how Protoss NEEDS, and I repeat, NEEDS, Photon Overcharge, just to survive to the mid-game. Absurd.
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The game speed for lower leagues is a GREAT idea. The problem is that it TOO LATE. Everyone is used to the faster speeds now. If Blizz is going to do this I would say make it for Silver and below.
As for balance changes, I would say leave everything the way it is. Give the pro's at least a season to figure out the strategies.
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On January 09 2016 13:49 EatingBomber wrote:
Remember when Protoss Gateway units were stronger in the early game than the early-game units of other races?
Now the discussion has shifted to how Protoss NEEDS, and I repeat, NEEDS, Photon Overcharge, just to survive to the mid-game. Absurd.
maybe slightly nerf overcharge and buff Sentry, Stalker, Zealot, Adept ?
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On January 09 2016 13:49 EatingBomber wrote:
Remember when Protoss Gateway units were stronger in the early game than the early-game units of other races?
Now the discussion has shifted to how Protoss NEEDS, and I repeat, NEEDS, Photon Overcharge, just to survive to the mid-game. Absurd.
Which WoL were you playing? Because the one I played had a number of early Terran pressures which Protoss struggled against for years before Nexus cannon was introduced in HoTS. Protoss early units may be strong but it is hard to get enough of them to hold off pushes in the early game that is why MSC and PO were introduced. I would rather see actual fighting units to solve the problem but this does not seem to be the path Blizz is pursuing.
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On January 09 2016 13:48 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:44 Perdac Curall wrote:
I just have to say nerfing the photon overcharge to 50 mana will render it much more useless because pylons are so easy to destroy.
I do agree it is a cheesy tactic to rush pylon overcharge at the enemy base, but Protoss needs something to defend in the early game, and unless Blizzard can re-tool the Protoss units so that PO can be removed from the game, it or something like it will have to stay to give Protoss any chance of surviving early game.
What if PO can only be cast at pylons near a Nexus or Gateway? This would allow it to keep its defensive nature while removing the annoying pylon spamming at the enemy's base. Since the pylon energy field's color is already an in-game indicator of which pylons are near a gateway or nexus it should be a logical addition to implement.
Also, since Protoss can no longer warp in on higher ground even with vision, there is no need for the reduced pylon energy field radius which was brought in because of that. Blizzard may want to consider making this change to PO while increasing pylon radius to allow pylons near the ramp to defend even if there is no gateway there.
Lastly, if Blizzard is going to increase the energy cost to 50 they should seriously consider increasing the range, duration and strength of PO and increasing the health of pylons because as is they are easy to destroy.
If Blizzard changes PO to only work on pylons near gateways and nexii they may not need to nerf Adepts as harassment with them is much more costly, micro-intensive and exciting to watch than pylon spam in my view. Maybe Pylon Overcharge could do extra damage versus zerg units, but less damage to normal units like terran have? 20 damage versus normal units +30 damage versus Zerg units and splash damage in air versus zerg air units. It would help protoss versus zerg winrate and zerg players cannot just build muta because protoss has stronger overcharge on pylons that can splash the mutalisks that protoss has hard time to deal with
As far as I know there is no way to make attacks do more damage to only Zerg units, and besides there are plenty of strong early Terran pushes as well.
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Atleast we all can agree on something here. That is progress.
In WoL, Hots and LOTV always Protoss was the weakest race and zerg the easiest
Now we need ideas to change it and tell David Kim.
On January 09 2016 14:02 Perdac Curall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:48 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:44 Perdac Curall wrote:
I just have to say nerfing the photon overcharge to 50 mana will render it much more useless because pylons are so easy to destroy.
I do agree it is a cheesy tactic to rush pylon overcharge at the enemy base, but Protoss needs something to defend in the early game, and unless Blizzard can re-tool the Protoss units so that PO can be removed from the game, it or something like it will have to stay to give Protoss any chance of surviving early game.
What if PO can only be cast at pylons near a Nexus or Gateway? This would allow it to keep its defensive nature while removing the annoying pylon spamming at the enemy's base. Since the pylon energy field's color is already an in-game indicator of which pylons are near a gateway or nexus it should be a logical addition to implement.
Also, since Protoss can no longer warp in on higher ground even with vision, there is no need for the reduced pylon energy field radius which was brought in because of that. Blizzard may want to consider making this change to PO while increasing pylon radius to allow pylons near the ramp to defend even if there is no gateway there.
Lastly, if Blizzard is going to increase the energy cost to 50 they should seriously consider increasing the range, duration and strength of PO and increasing the health of pylons because as is they are easy to destroy.
If Blizzard changes PO to only work on pylons near gateways and nexii they may not need to nerf Adepts as harassment with them is much more costly, micro-intensive and exciting to watch than pylon spam in my view. Maybe Pylon Overcharge could do extra damage versus zerg units, but less damage to normal units like terran have? 20 damage versus normal units +30 damage versus Zerg units and splash damage in air versus zerg air units. It would help protoss versus zerg winrate and zerg players cannot just build muta because protoss has stronger overcharge on pylons that can splash the mutalisks that protoss has hard time to deal with As far as I know there is no way to make attacks do more damage to only Zerg units, and besides there are plenty of strong early Terran pushes as well.
From a technical standpoint it would work. If you have problems versus Terran than lets say PO does extra damage versus all biological (zerg units, marauder marines) if you think terran is too strong for Protoss.
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On January 09 2016 04:53 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
RIP tournament Terrans. Another month of this and SSL/GSL really won't have any more Terran players left.
// Marinelord doesn't count because he was up against Innovation, a Terran player. Marinelord almost lost to the Z, but he managed to hit a timing where the Ultras were out but didn't have the armor upgrade. The P player he beat only killed 1 tank with 3 disruptors.
What are you talking about? Terran is winning over 50% in both non-mirrors according to Aligulac. And isn't currently under 50% in any matchup in the GSL or SSL (which just started).
Terran had a 72% winrate versus Zerg, and a 73% winrate versus Protoss in NationWars.
What are you seeing, that I am not seeing? Did I miss some tournament?
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On January 09 2016 13:37 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:34 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:22 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:17 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:09 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:03 playa wrote:
P vs Z numbers could be at 20% win rate, and you'd keep hearing "let's wait and see" until one month (if ever) it reaches 45% win rate. Then, time to pop in and say "looks like you nubs finally figured out how to play." Kim has the greatest job: if the numbers show imbalance, well, need more time, obviously; if numbers are close to 50%, well, pat on the back to self. The lack of objectivity and authority from more knowledgeable people makes this game impossible to be optimistic about. In my opinion I strongly disagree. Game is young and needs time. Looking at korea I am very optimistic about future of balance. I remember in the beginning in LOTV when Zerg was by far the worst race ever in existence. Then Zerg heroes Fruitdealer and Nestea emerged. They showed us the way. We zerg players practiced hard and adapted and this is why we have a thick skin now and look like strong monsters. In time Protoss will adept. They had an easy time and now they need to train a bit more. It is all good I refused to play/buy LotV due to them making the easiest race even EASIER and still not addressing Toss' biggest problem: handling mutas. Everything that is being talked about now, as well as winrates, should have been incredibly obvious to any GM player, during the first stages of beta. Shoot, any diamond player should have known better. Seriously, phoenix are good? Need good micro. Need great scouting. Need to invest in super expensive building/upgrades for them. Yet Parasitic Bomb is OK? Some asymmetrical balance... Toss gets 1 click annihilation of ground, you take air! This game is a joke. Worse than the horrendous balance due to not addressing the real issues (not even a new unit that shoots up for Toss, etc), is the focus on balance. Man, if only I make the adept strong enough and it becomes the only way to play the game, I might be able to get close to 45%... There is no longer any strategy in this game due to a desperation from a team to find an easy way to get close to 50% win rate. Ok you made a reasonable point with your post and I strongly agree now. I did not realize before your post that zerg was easiest race. I was blinded by my own race before. Now I understand it better and will join you in your mission to nerf zerg and buff protoss. We should add a new protoss unit that shoots "up" like you say. What is your vision of this unit? Let's discuss it My propose to nerf muta is that zerg is only allowed to have 10 mutalisk for each spire. So zerg cannot build too many strong mutas While your sarcasm is cute, I've yet to be surprised by anything in LotV. Every reason given for not playing beforehand has materialized. Many top GM zergs, in HotS, weren't even using hotkeys. I mean ANY hotkeys. The discrepancy in skill needed between the races needed to be brought a lot closer. Somehow, it went the other direction. This is not acceptable/viable. D Kim could be in bronze league and say mutas should do 500 damage a hit... if so, that's what would happen and the rhetoric would be the same. It wouldn't matter if you're Flash and you offer a retort, you would simply be called biased by him. Non Korean streamers have a shtick and his isn't much different. It's not about proposals, as it's a moot point with this regime. It's about only talking about boycotting or putting pressure on them to find a new team/people. This game has gone nothing but downhill. The only good idea was trying to stop 4 gate. This team couldn't even get me to play more than 10 beta games... that's how unappealing and trashy this game should be from a Toss perspective. None of our new units even filled a void. Just here's some random stuff, while other races get buffs (even if randomly happened). If I could ask for one thing to be in the game, just one thing. It would actually be scourges. I'm not biased... I had no problem mentioning other races I didn't play being much harder in BW; ie., I thought Zerg was the hardest. Watching this game just isn't fun, without scourges. It's not fun to play either. There's no risk/reward. Super warp prisms just living for eternity. I don't like anything about this game. With the viewership numbers... those who do like something have been a minority for a while. Stop talking about balance as it matters. Talk about balance once you force them to fire people... It was not joke. I really mean what I was saying. I am 100% on your side. I am converted. I said to myself "what if I am wrong and others are actually more right than I?". Then what can we do. What would you do if you sit in the chair?
You mind F'd me. I was like this doesn't really sound like sarcasm, at all, yet the odds of someone having your mentality has to be around the odds of albinism. Major props to you.
The reality is, to me at least, is that greed killed this game. In 2012, their greed, which led to trying to force Koreans into everything imaginable, killed this game. At this point, more important than balance, is that fact they killed the game. The game was popular when it wasn't even good. It could still be, but you would need to "buy players." They need to buy hype. An influx of money is probably a requisite for jump starting interest.
SC 2 is a competitive game, right? Esport. Well, all things equal but money, would you rather strive to be a pro NBA player or bowler? As long as SC 2 is all about how much money they can immediately pocket, there is no hope for SC 2.
But, if somehow unicorns appeared... to actually have this game stand on its own legs and not "money legs..." balance talk needs to take a backseat. BW, seriously, wasn't THAT balanced. What this game needs more than a utopian 50% balance (which obv isn't achievable...) are options.
We need more units, more options for countering. More options for everything. This game needs to return to being a strategy game. And it NEEDS scourges. I literally get sick to my stomach watching warp prisms just idle wherever they feel like on the map, and just harass on a whim, all game, whenever they feel like. This game should have enough options and complexity to the point where what David Kim says actually has some truth to it: "it needs more time."
It killed my soul to have to go mass blink stalker every game vs Zerg in HotS. Everyone had to do the same opener... at that point, who cares if the number is close to 50 or not? It's not fun. May as well be playing tic tac toe at that point. More focus on strategy and sensible units. Not "I clicked once, all your units died. HAHA." This game can't be taken seriously until people are fired.
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On January 09 2016 14:06 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 13:37 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:34 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:22 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:17 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:09 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:03 playa wrote:
P vs Z numbers could be at 20% win rate, and you'd keep hearing "let's wait and see" until one month (if ever) it reaches 45% win rate. Then, time to pop in and say "looks like you nubs finally figured out how to play." Kim has the greatest job: if the numbers show imbalance, well, need more time, obviously; if numbers are close to 50%, well, pat on the back to self. The lack of objectivity and authority from more knowledgeable people makes this game impossible to be optimistic about. In my opinion I strongly disagree. Game is young and needs time. Looking at korea I am very optimistic about future of balance. I remember in the beginning in LOTV when Zerg was by far the worst race ever in existence. Then Zerg heroes Fruitdealer and Nestea emerged. They showed us the way. We zerg players practiced hard and adapted and this is why we have a thick skin now and look like strong monsters. In time Protoss will adept. They had an easy time and now they need to train a bit more. It is all good I refused to play/buy LotV due to them making the easiest race even EASIER and still not addressing Toss' biggest problem: handling mutas. Everything that is being talked about now, as well as winrates, should have been incredibly obvious to any GM player, during the first stages of beta. Shoot, any diamond player should have known better. Seriously, phoenix are good? Need good micro. Need great scouting. Need to invest in super expensive building/upgrades for them. Yet Parasitic Bomb is OK? Some asymmetrical balance... Toss gets 1 click annihilation of ground, you take air! This game is a joke. Worse than the horrendous balance due to not addressing the real issues (not even a new unit that shoots up for Toss, etc), is the focus on balance. Man, if only I make the adept strong enough and it becomes the only way to play the game, I might be able to get close to 45%... There is no longer any strategy in this game due to a desperation from a team to find an easy way to get close to 50% win rate. Ok you made a reasonable point with your post and I strongly agree now. I did not realize before your post that zerg was easiest race. I was blinded by my own race before. Now I understand it better and will join you in your mission to nerf zerg and buff protoss. We should add a new protoss unit that shoots "up" like you say. What is your vision of this unit? Let's discuss it My propose to nerf muta is that zerg is only allowed to have 10 mutalisk for each spire. So zerg cannot build too many strong mutas While your sarcasm is cute, I've yet to be surprised by anything in LotV. Every reason given for not playing beforehand has materialized. Many top GM zergs, in HotS, weren't even using hotkeys. I mean ANY hotkeys. The discrepancy in skill needed between the races needed to be brought a lot closer. Somehow, it went the other direction. This is not acceptable/viable. D Kim could be in bronze league and say mutas should do 500 damage a hit... if so, that's what would happen and the rhetoric would be the same. It wouldn't matter if you're Flash and you offer a retort, you would simply be called biased by him. Non Korean streamers have a shtick and his isn't much different. It's not about proposals, as it's a moot point with this regime. It's about only talking about boycotting or putting pressure on them to find a new team/people. This game has gone nothing but downhill. The only good idea was trying to stop 4 gate. This team couldn't even get me to play more than 10 beta games... that's how unappealing and trashy this game should be from a Toss perspective. None of our new units even filled a void. Just here's some random stuff, while other races get buffs (even if randomly happened). If I could ask for one thing to be in the game, just one thing. It would actually be scourges. I'm not biased... I had no problem mentioning other races I didn't play being much harder in BW; ie., I thought Zerg was the hardest. Watching this game just isn't fun, without scourges. It's not fun to play either. There's no risk/reward. Super warp prisms just living for eternity. I don't like anything about this game. With the viewership numbers... those who do like something have been a minority for a while. Stop talking about balance as it matters. Talk about balance once you force them to fire people... It was not joke. I really mean what I was saying. I am 100% on your side. I am converted. I said to myself "what if I am wrong and others are actually more right than I?". Then what can we do. What would you do if you sit in the chair? You mind F'd me. I was like this doesn't really sound like sarcasm, at all, yet the odds of someone having your mentality has to be around the odds of albinism. Major props to you. The reality is, to me at least, is that greed killed this game. In 2012, their greed, which led to trying to force Koreans into everything imaginable, killed this game. At this point, more important than balance, is that fact they killed the game. The game was popular when it wasn't even good. It could still be, but you would need to "buy players." They need to buy hype. An influx of money is probably a requisite for jump starting interest. SC 2 is a competitive game, right? Esport. Well, all things equal but money, would you rather strive to be a pro NBA player or bowler? As long as SC 2 is all about how much money they can immediately pocket, there is no hope for SC 2. But, if somehow unicorns appeared... to actually have this game stand on its own legs and not "money legs..." balance talk needs to take a backseat. BW, seriously, wasn't THAT balanced. What this game needs more than a utopian 50% balance (which obv isn't achievable...) We need more units, more options for countering. More options for everything. This game needs to return to being a strategy game. And it NEEDS scourges. I literally get sick to my stomach watching warp prisms just idle wherever they feel like on the map, and just harass on a whim, all game, whenever they feel like. This game should have enough options and complexity to the point of what David Kim actually says has some truth to it: "it needs more time." It killed my soul to have to go mass blink stalker every game vs Zerg in HotS. Everyone had to do the same opener... at that point, who cares if the number is close to 50 or not? It's not fun. May as well be playing tic tac toe at that point. More focus on strategy and sensible units. Not "I clicked once, all your units died. HAHA." This game can't be taken seriously until people are fired.
I don't know if you just insulted me or not my english is not strong enough.
Have you ever considered making your own game or getting into the industry? Maybe you can save RTS gaming with good ideas. Application to Blizzard Starcraft 2.
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On January 09 2016 14:06 playa wrote:
It killed my soul to have to go mass blink stalker every game vs Zerg in HotS.
The Viper killed everyone's soul for forcing us to do that. I just did 2 base timings pre-Viper to avoid playing versus that dumb unit, but then I just quit HOTS altogether.
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On January 09 2016 14:11 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 14:06 playa wrote:
It killed my soul to have to go mass blink stalker every game vs Zerg in HotS.
The Viper killed everyone's soul for forcing us to do that. I just did 2 base timings pre-Viper to avoid playing versus that dumb unit, but then I just quit HOTS altogether.
I hated viper vs colossi. It was so coin flippy to me. It's so stressful/annoying when so much of your army strength, and chances of winning, can disappear in 2 clicks from the opponent... or vice versa, and it appears like luck was the deciding factor...
But I mainly arrived at the same oracle into stlakers due to mutas. Phoenix just aren't a unit you want to make vs Zerg. You don't want to go colossi then have to make phoenix. You have to be so much better than your opponent to not end up too far behind economically or not end up with the wrong balance/composition. It just wasn't worth it. You wanted to feel like you could win the game if you were around the same level as your opponent.
On January 09 2016 14:10 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 14:06 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:37 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:34 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:22 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:17 playa wrote:On January 09 2016 13:09 A_needle_jog wrote:On January 09 2016 13:03 playa wrote:
P vs Z numbers could be at 20% win rate, and you'd keep hearing "let's wait and see" until one month (if ever) it reaches 45% win rate. Then, time to pop in and say "looks like you nubs finally figured out how to play." Kim has the greatest job: if the numbers show imbalance, well, need more time, obviously; if numbers are close to 50%, well, pat on the back to self. The lack of objectivity and authority from more knowledgeable people makes this game impossible to be optimistic about. In my opinion I strongly disagree. Game is young and needs time. Looking at korea I am very optimistic about future of balance. I remember in the beginning in LOTV when Zerg was by far the worst race ever in existence. Then Zerg heroes Fruitdealer and Nestea emerged. They showed us the way. We zerg players practiced hard and adapted and this is why we have a thick skin now and look like strong monsters. In time Protoss will adept. They had an easy time and now they need to train a bit more. It is all good I refused to play/buy LotV due to them making the easiest race even EASIER and still not addressing Toss' biggest problem: handling mutas. Everything that is being talked about now, as well as winrates, should have been incredibly obvious to any GM player, during the first stages of beta. Shoot, any diamond player should have known better. Seriously, phoenix are good? Need good micro. Need great scouting. Need to invest in super expensive building/upgrades for them. Yet Parasitic Bomb is OK? Some asymmetrical balance... Toss gets 1 click annihilation of ground, you take air! This game is a joke. Worse than the horrendous balance due to not addressing the real issues (not even a new unit that shoots up for Toss, etc), is the focus on balance. Man, if only I make the adept strong enough and it becomes the only way to play the game, I might be able to get close to 45%... There is no longer any strategy in this game due to a desperation from a team to find an easy way to get close to 50% win rate. Ok you made a reasonable point with your post and I strongly agree now. I did not realize before your post that zerg was easiest race. I was blinded by my own race before. Now I understand it better and will join you in your mission to nerf zerg and buff protoss. We should add a new protoss unit that shoots "up" like you say. What is your vision of this unit? Let's discuss it My propose to nerf muta is that zerg is only allowed to have 10 mutalisk for each spire. So zerg cannot build too many strong mutas While your sarcasm is cute, I've yet to be surprised by anything in LotV. Every reason given for not playing beforehand has materialized. Many top GM zergs, in HotS, weren't even using hotkeys. I mean ANY hotkeys. The discrepancy in skill needed between the races needed to be brought a lot closer. Somehow, it went the other direction. This is not acceptable/viable. D Kim could be in bronze league and say mutas should do 500 damage a hit... if so, that's what would happen and the rhetoric would be the same. It wouldn't matter if you're Flash and you offer a retort, you would simply be called biased by him. Non Korean streamers have a shtick and his isn't much different. It's not about proposals, as it's a moot point with this regime. It's about only talking about boycotting or putting pressure on them to find a new team/people. This game has gone nothing but downhill. The only good idea was trying to stop 4 gate. This team couldn't even get me to play more than 10 beta games... that's how unappealing and trashy this game should be from a Toss perspective. None of our new units even filled a void. Just here's some random stuff, while other races get buffs (even if randomly happened). If I could ask for one thing to be in the game, just one thing. It would actually be scourges. I'm not biased... I had no problem mentioning other races I didn't play being much harder in BW; ie., I thought Zerg was the hardest. Watching this game just isn't fun, without scourges. It's not fun to play either. There's no risk/reward. Super warp prisms just living for eternity. I don't like anything about this game. With the viewership numbers... those who do like something have been a minority for a while. Stop talking about balance as it matters. Talk about balance once you force them to fire people... It was not joke. I really mean what I was saying. I am 100% on your side. I am converted. I said to myself "what if I am wrong and others are actually more right than I?". Then what can we do. What would you do if you sit in the chair? You mind F'd me. I was like this doesn't really sound like sarcasm, at all, yet the odds of someone having your mentality has to be around the odds of albinism. Major props to you. The reality is, to me at least, is that greed killed this game. In 2012, their greed, which led to trying to force Koreans into everything imaginable, killed this game. At this point, more important than balance, is that fact they killed the game. The game was popular when it wasn't even good. It could still be, but you would need to "buy players." They need to buy hype. An influx of money is probably a requisite for jump starting interest. SC 2 is a competitive game, right? Esport. Well, all things equal but money, would you rather strive to be a pro NBA player or bowler? As long as SC 2 is all about how much money they can immediately pocket, there is no hope for SC 2. But, if somehow unicorns appeared... to actually have this game stand on its own legs and not "money legs..." balance talk needs to take a backseat. BW, seriously, wasn't THAT balanced. What this game needs more than a utopian 50% balance (which obv isn't achievable...) We need more units, more options for countering. More options for everything. This game needs to return to being a strategy game. And it NEEDS scourges. I literally get sick to my stomach watching warp prisms just idle wherever they feel like on the map, and just harass on a whim, all game, whenever they feel like. This game should have enough options and complexity to the point of what David Kim actually says has some truth to it: "it needs more time." It killed my soul to have to go mass blink stalker every game vs Zerg in HotS. Everyone had to do the same opener... at that point, who cares if the number is close to 50 or not? It's not fun. May as well be playing tic tac toe at that point. More focus on strategy and sensible units. Not "I clicked once, all your units died. HAHA." This game can't be taken seriously until people are fired. I don't know if you just insulted me or not my english is not strong enough. Have you ever considered making your own game or getting into the industry? Maybe you can save RTS gaming with good ideas. Application to Blizzard Starcraft 2.
Being a Blizzard employee is clearly about a buddy system. If you're not sucking up or ignorant about the issues, I don't see how you could have a chance. And no, I didn't insult you. In fact, the opposite.
Even if you have better ideas, you're still human. Who is to say you don't become David Kim'ish and start trying, desperately, to discredit pro gamers (or high level players in general)? In WoL, Kim used to talk about differing win rates at different stages in the game, in T vs P. He was clearly trying to do an honest job/be transparent. However... in HotS, P vs Z win rates, in this regard, were way more embarrassing, yet no mentions...
The problem is if it's a good job you realize there are better ideas/people, but... you have to erroneously seem like you're the man for the job. It's like someone makes you an honorary GM, and now your task becomes trying to keep the title via seeming like you deserve it. Unless you're given the security to where you can admit mistakes and that pro players actually know what they're talking about, without fear of repercussions, then you face a facade.
Anyone who can allow swarm hosts to continue in their state for that long... there can't be that much sense of security, since there was 0 care for the state of the game... only numbers.
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EPT
