Though there weren`t many tournaments, we already had a couple of foreign tournaments like DH and qualifications for GSL and SSL. During this time, we`ve talked a lot about units and balance issues; Zerg became strong with its new midgame units, which led Solar to the championship of DH winter.
Many people assumed that Zerg would take the initiative. However, the winrate wasn`t broken thanks to the players' effort. Moreover, maps also contributed to the better balance; it seemed that the age of 'golden balance' had just begun.
And all these things were nothing but a hasty judgment; Adept, a new protoss unit, just messed up everything.
It`s not broken; It squashed the whole balance.
Adept is a new gateway unit. It costs 100/25 and deals additional damage to light armoured units. Psionic Transfer strengthens its mobility that enables it to scout. with WP`s ranged pickup, it can easily overpowers Terran at the beginning.
Adept`s +light damage and mobility makes Marine-Marauder useless. Though Zerg can advance its forces while protecting its bases with Spine Crawler, Terran must build bunkers and be passive whilst Protoss gets its third easily. Because of this, Terran`s opening strategies are limited.
Of course, Terran can counter WP-Adept strategy; if you choose Cyclone-Third or double barracks. However, If Protoss gives a little twist and expands aggressively, Terran cannot hold. Even if it's not expanding, Terran must be aware of other harasses like DT drops.
Frequent patches are not good for game, especially when it comes to SC2, a game with three races. However, that WP-Adept strategy makes the game too quick, unforgiving, one-sided - it needs immediate adjustment.
Since WoL, all balance issues` been adjusted; 4 gate was nerfed by increasing time requirement for Warp Gate. 111 was adjusted by increasing Immortal`s range to 6. In HotS, Hellbat drops were re-balanced by requiring Hell-fire upgrades to Hellbat`s +light damage, which made it to hit 3 times to kill workers.
Like this, WP-Adept needs instant adjustment. However, this might cause serious problems against Zerg. Hence, I would like to suggest two options:
First, nerf WP`s ranged pickup. This makes it harder to abuse the strategy and makes time for Terran to be prepared.
Or, secondly, we can make Adept armoured; it enables Marauders to counter Adepts. We also can raise energy requirement for overcharge, which makes Protoss more passive.
Maybe we can adjust Psionic Transfer`s cooltime or nerf Adept`s dealing ability itself. However, this would drop the value of Adept itself, which causes big problems playing against Zerg.
Regardless of what we choose, it is certain that TVP is broken; it could harm the game`s reputation seriously. Though we can wait with the solution of progamers, we`re not sure how long it`ll take. What is worse, Blizzard also should consider the fact that they cannot adjust units based on one particular side of the game.
Balancing is a hard work. So, What will be Blizzard`s answer?
And, as JYP himself said, it will break ZvP. Especially with the lurker bonus vs armored and basically all protoss ground being armored.
rofl It's not like adepts are useful once lurkers are out anyway :D Or like ZvP is balanced atm He was saying that the change should be made carefully so that it does NOT affect pvz not that changing adept armor would affect pvz and proposed the armored change himself. Don't misquote people pls
On January 07 2016 19:13 Nebuchad wrote: I missed the part where he explains why it's so certain that TvP is broken and why it needs instant adjustment.
What do you think this is, a conspiracy? An elaborate joke being played on poor ladder Protoss Joes? We're all just balance whining and we somehow got Korean commentators and Korean Protoss pros, who are using Adepts to place well in tournaments, to say publicly that Adepts are OP and need immediate fixing?
They're ridiculously strong A+move units that are capable of dealing game ending harass damage (equally so against mediocre Terrans as against the best Terrans in the world, there isn't a lot of skillful back and forth going on in Adept harass), that require little commitment, hard counter Terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, force Terran to scout very well while keeping a blind Protoss relatively safe from everything.
None of the things I wrote in that paragraph are good. Combined together, they are in fact very bad. It's remarkable that the unit got through beta and two months of release in this state when it was so blatantly clear to so many people that it was outright broken.
And, as JYP himself said, it will break ZvP. Especially with the lurker bonus vs armored and basically all protoss ground being armored.
I still don't understand why lurkers have bonus vs armored, and it's not a small bonus either, it's like 33% of their damage against them (20+10).
Lurkers with something like flat 23-25 damage instead of that 20+10 would mean:
In ZvP they become better against zealots, HT and archons, worse against stalkers and immortals. Against adepts it depends if the change comes true, but anyway adepts suck against them. Might be an overall nerf which would be good.
In ZvT they become better against marines, mines and hellions, worse against marauders and tanks. Might be an overall buff because of marines, which would be good.
So basically, everything a lurker should be IMO.
In ZvZ they become better against lings, hydras and ravagers. Worse against roaches, ultras and... banelings? No idea if Lurkers see much play in this matchup atm anyway.
Edit: I agree nerfing the warp prism is much better than making adepts armored btw. The "op part" of the wp+adept combo is easily the warp prism.
The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
On January 07 2016 19:13 Nebuchad wrote: I missed the part where he explains why it's so certain that TvP is broken and why it needs instant adjustment.
What do you think this is, a conspiracy? An elaborate joke being played on poor ladder Protoss Joes? We're all just balance whining and we somehow got Korean commentators and Korean Protoss pros, who are using Adepts to place well in tournaments, to say publicly that Adepts are OP and need immediate fixing?
They're ridiculously strong A+move units that are capable of dealing game ending harass damage (equally so against mediocre Terrans as against the best Terrans in the world, there isn't a lot of skillful back and forth going on in Adept harass), that require little commitment, hard counter Terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, force Terran to scout very well while keeping a blind Protoss relatively safe from everything.
None of the things I wrote in that paragraph are good. Combined together, they are in fact very bad. It's remarkable that the unit got through beta and two months of release in this state when it was so blatantly clear to so many people that it was outright broken.
They aren't a+move units, there is about as much skillful back and forth as there was with speedivac harass at the beginning of HotS, I don't know that this is terran's only viable playstyle in TvP, and the agressive player always has the advantage of scouting better than the defending one.
Besides n°1, you haven't answered the point anymore than JYP did, you've resorted to the same tactic of asserting something very loudly. Besides n°2, Blizzard is already studying protoss nerfs (and no equivalent protoss buff to account for the fact that they are nerfing one of the biggest sources of wins of a 48% race). You're going to be fine.
Can't Blizzard just let the Adept's shade be attacked (perhaps for a low amount of damage, like 1/2 or 1/3 of the damage that would normally be taken by the Adept) instead of having it be invincible? Wouldn't that be helpful towards balance?
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
On January 07 2016 22:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Can't Blizzard just let the Adept's shade be attacked (perhaps for a low amount of damage, like 1/2 or 1/3 of the damage that would normally be taken by the Adept) instead of having it be invincible? Wouldn't that be helpful towards balance?
That would nerf it in all match-ups while it really only is a big problem in TvP. I think the option given by JYP make sense, and it seems as Blizzard agrees (see my earlier post).
Change it from 23 vs light to 22 vs light and it no longer 2 shots scvs and marines pre combat shields.
It's a nerf that only impacts PvT until combat shields are done. Minimal impact to PvZ.
Although, once Photon Overcharge is nerfed my guess is that the Adept nerf won't be needed anyway since Protoss will need more units back home and won't be able to harass w Adepts as much. And if they do they won't be able to expand as fast.
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
Maybe make it so the range as it is right now and the ability to quickly warp in are tied to a support bay tech? I *do* like what the WP does to the game but getting it in such a powerful state and for only minerals in the early game is a bit much.
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
Maybe make it so the range as it is right now and the ability to quickly warp in are tied to a support bay tech? I *do* like what the WP does to the game but getting it in such a powerful state and for only minerals in the early game is a bit much.
To get the warp prism early enough to do the kind of damage we're talking about you have to rush robo and warp prism and that's 400/100 invested in stuff that doesn't attack or do any damage.
If Protoss wasn't so safe behind endless Photon Overcharge you wouldn't have a problem because if they did that you could just make a bunch of units and attack them.
But the fact that they CAN do that AND also take a third at the same time and be perfectly safe means that PO is too strong.
Blizzard should be careful not to nerf too many things at once, but they need to do something.
If you really have to go in and change in armour types, I would like them to just remove it similar to the Ghost, in conjunction with a small hp/shields nerf. Just to differentiate Adepts from Stalkers and Zealots and create more opportunities for experienced players to really capitalize on making the right unit composition calls.
Perhaps the adept shouldnt be tweaked but the warp prism?
It seems like after all these years, the warp gate mechanic is still broken and needs to be dealt with.
(aggressive) Warpgate-mechanic or strong gateway units, theres only room for one of them in this game (imho). Blizzard is prob aware of this issue and will eventually nerf the adept but doing so will once again force protoss to rely on high tech deathballs and leave them unable to spread out their army and defend multiple locations etc. Only if aggro WG mechanic is removed can floating boob / pylon deathray be addressed.
This issue has been clear to the LotV Beta community for some time, and it's two-pronged: (1) Adept is too strong versus Terran, and (2) the Warp Prism is too good altogether. I believe some of us predicted, GSL is going to show us how broken these units really are.
I suppose the third prong of the problem is that Protoss might be slightly weak versus Zerg.
Dino's minuscule -1 DMG nerf is interesting, but probably not enough. The unit is fast, starts with an awesome ability that doesn't require an upgrade, and completely throws off the ground-army fights in TvP. This issue is seriously compounded by Resonating Glaives and Disruptors.
Adding gas to the cost of the Warp Prism is probably necessary, but I think we also need to change the "passive Blink" area granted by the Warp Prism in both modes. Nerf the range, and/or restrict it to one mode.
On January 08 2016 00:44 Thouhastmail wrote: my suggestion is simple: drop turret`s cost to 75.
Didn't they toy around with that in the beta? Or maybe I'm thinking of engi bay-less turrets. Either way I'd love for a turret buff in some fashion because TvT is somewhat a doom drop mess and tech is so powerful in the TvT early game I feel turrets would go a long way to make it so there could be more openers.
On January 08 2016 00:44 Thouhastmail wrote: my suggestion is simple: drop turret`s cost to 75.
Didn't they toy around with that in the beta? Or maybe I'm thinking of engi bay-less turrets. Either way I'd love for a turret buff in some fashion because TvT is somewhat a doom drop mess and tech is so powerful in the TvT early game I feel turrets would go a long way to make it so there could be more openers.
It were indeed turrets without engi bays they tested.
Adept -> Armoured Just doesn't work, PvP will be exclusive Stalker/Immortal with no competition. They will perform worse against Spines+Lurkers+Ultralisks and finally we're back to square one in PvT where a gateway army has to flea to the best of their ability for any kind of confrontability vs the Terran army.
Furthermore there's no chance for the awesomeness that is Banelings vs Adepts and Ghosts as a counter to Adepts. Not something we see a lot, but would be incredible to see.
Ah. But I can't really take "feelings" or "theory" on how games play out as evidence of a problem, I don't think the game should be balanced around that at all once it's been released. Actual statistics are the only way to go, and currently T is ahead in the TvP matchup.
Unless the complaints are that it is a guessing game, which can be a legitimate complaint. But the original post wasn't framed that way, it's complaining of imbalance.
Ah. But I can't really take "feelings" or "theory" on how games play out as evidence of a problem, I don't think the game should be balanced around that at all once it's been released. Actual statistics are the only way to go, and currently T is ahead in the TvP matchup.
So PvZ with Broodlord Infestor in late WOL was fine because the toss win/rate was increased due to the Immortal allin?
Hider, no - but no one would try to frame that entire problem as a one sided issue like this article does. Or, if they did, they would be wrong. You can't argue that a race is up against the wall when their overall winrate at pro level is > 50%. It just doesn't make sense.
So, if one has an issue with the design of the game when that is happening then one should frame it as such. Not as a balance issue.
If adepts and warp prisms are so overpoweringly strong then why is terran still > 50%? Why doesn't the article talking about that. Are terrans just doing miracle blind counters over 50% of the time? No way.
So yeah, maybe there are design issues. But if terran is > 50% what is going to happen when you weaken or take away protoss options? The article doesn't seem to consider this. It doesn't address the fact that statistically terran is doing fine.
In the mid and lategame, protoss lost a lot of relative power vs terran and especially zerg.
Just compare Hots to Wol in tvp. Collosus is bad now, mules give terran a macro advantage, the adept is about 25 gas better than a zealot in 200 vs 200. Most importantly, the liberator has made direct engagements much easier.
Is adept overpowered?, Sure, but protoss as a race is underpowered. If its 50% win vs terran ATM, thats mostly the adept putting in a lot of work.
Yeah I always thought that there was too much Marine killing power, with Adepts+Pylon Rush+Oracle, couple that with a strong Prism, I can for sure understand the frustration. As it stands now though, if Protoss didn't have these tools and they also want to nerf Pylon Overcharge in defense and Adepts suck vs Bio in mid game, then something like removing the upgrade for Liberators might be needed and that would be a huge change.
I've said this before but when you look at it it's quite clear why there are issues:
PvT: Adept + Warp Prism + third base = the whole game is played with a huge econ advantage to the Protoss. Despite that the win rate is 50% meaning if the Terran does well in the early game defending the game actually favors T.
PvZ: There is no such early game vulnerability... and the statistics show what happens next... economy changes favor the Zerg, the Lurker is overpowered, and tech switches hit harder than ever.
If they want to fix the game, they need to reduce how quickly adepts obliterate combat shield-less marines (my -1 damage nerf accomplishes this quite well, and maybe a Photon Overcharge tweak), then they need to re-buff the Colossus a little bit to compensate or increase the adept upgrade's effectiveness.
After that they can take a serious look at the Lurker and the Ultralisk because those units are extremely punishing in PvZ.
Quite frankly I really don't understand the colossus nerf. And I think reverting that will boost protoss winrate, and could be used to nerf some of their stupid things again. I think the main issue is only that contrary to zerg and terran, protoss lacks a good anti-colossus unit. But in for example TvP the colossus gives imo a more interesting relationship than the disruptor, with positioning being very important.
On January 08 2016 02:07 Sissors wrote: Quite frankly I really don't understand the colossus nerf. And I think reverting that will boost protoss winrate, and could be used to nerf some of their stupid things again. I think the main issue is only that contrary to zerg and terran, protoss lacks a good anti-colossus unit. But in for example TvP the colossus gives imo a more interesting relationship than the disruptor, with positioning being very important.
As much as people bitched about the Colossus "ignoring positioning" I really do miss the Colossus/Viking/Blink Stalker/MMM dance from HotS.
There was a lot more back and forth unit control than just "split against disruptor shot." It took a lot more micro than people thought, and interesting micro at that. Not just microbot level splitting.
Compulsory post regarding both GSL and Aligulac data being premature, because the game is fresh and the sample sizes (especially of premier tournaments) are too small.
This is like when hots first started being played in tournaments and Koreans were saying for months that the MSC was overpowered while foreigner protosses completely denied it for as long as they could until every pro game turned into blink stalker allins or proxy roacles.
On January 08 2016 02:16 HugoBallzak wrote: This is like when hots first started being played in tournaments and Koreans were saying for months that the MSC was overpowered while foreigner protosses completely denied it for as long as they could until every pro game turned into blink stalker allins or proxy roacles.
I think people were complaining about Hellbats back then. It was only after the Widow Mine nerf that Terran was seriously in trouble, and that issue only became visible in 2014
On January 08 2016 02:12 Ghanburighan wrote: Compulsory post regarding both GSL and Aligulac data being premature, because the game is fresh and the sample sizes (especially of premier tournaments) are too small.
Shouldn't that be your answer to JYP rather than us?
On January 08 2016 02:12 Ghanburighan wrote: Compulsory post regarding both GSL and Aligulac data being premature, because the game is fresh and the sample sizes (especially of premier tournaments) are too small.
Shouldn't that be your answer to JYP rather than us?
On January 08 2016 02:16 HugoBallzak wrote: This is like when hots first started being played in tournaments and Koreans were saying for months that the MSC was overpowered while foreigner protosses completely denied it for as long as they could until every pro game turned into blink stalker allins or proxy roacles.
I think people were complaining about Hellbats back then. It was only after the Widow Mine nerf that Terran was seriously in trouble, and that issue only became visible in 2014
Yes but even with prenerf hellbats I am pretty sure top Koreans even protosses were pointing out the problem with msc vision range and overcharge. They were able to see despite the terran hellbat advantage the issue before it became the meta after hellbats were zapped.
Rough cost for cost combats relations: The adept beats most if not all light ground units in direct combat. Most of them rather handily. The adept loses to most if not all non-light ground units in direct combat. Against many of them in a landslide. The adept cannot shoot up and has a rather low range. The adept's normal movement speed is slower than most units in the game. --> The adept's combat relations make sense. I don't see how the adept is overpowered considering the stats (speed, attack, cost, supply...) and tags (ground, air, armored, light...) in the game. If you nerf the adept to be armored or something like that you are just creating another gimmick unit that you will never see in TvP and PvP past 5mins because of marauders, stalkers and immortals.
The problems with the adept all come from psionic transfer and warp-in/the warp prism. Psionic transfer is just wrong in so many ways since you cannot interact with the shade at all: 1) Psionic transfer forces the defender to have a superior force to the adepts in two locations at once, once the adepts are inside of a base. 2) The psionic transfer allows the adept to overcome smaller and bigger range disadvantages. The adept can ensure that every battle starts favorable. Most units in the game take a big stats-tradeoff for their ranged attacks, the adept doesn't care about that and can turn every combat in a stats for stats comparison. Which, granted, it isn't that great at in many scenarios, but which totally neglects fun or strategic unit interactions.
Could make it so without Adept Upgrade the Shade cannot move. So you click on the ability and Shade spawns beneath the Adept and you cannot target it. That way you can only do defensive Shades untill you have the Upgrade.
From what i have seen its the Shade ability thats the issue, as Terran just doesnt have the mobility to keep up with it in the early game.
Why dont they make it so it cant be canceled once triggered, then at least Protoss has to think about it rather than having the opposition bounce around their own base like a headless chicken trying to catch the things
On January 08 2016 02:48 Big J wrote: Rough cost for cost combats relations: The adept beats most if not all light ground units in direct combat. Most of them rather handily. The adept loses to most if not all non-light ground units in direct combat. Against many of them in a landslide. The adept cannot shoot up and has a rather low range. The adept's normal movement speed is slower than most units in the game. --> The adept's combat relations make sense. I don't see how the adept is overpowered considering the stats (speed, attack, cost, supply...) and tags (ground, air, armored, light...) in the game. If you nerf the adept to be armored or something like that you are just creating another gimmick unit that you will never see in TvP and PvP past 5mins because of marauders, stalkers and immortals.
The problems with the adept all come from psionic transfer and warp-in/the warp prism. Psionic transfer is just wrong in so many ways since you cannot interact with the shade at all: 1) Psionic transfer forces the defender to have a superior force to the adepts in two locations at once, once the adepts are inside of a base. 2) The psionic transfer allows the adept to overcome smaller and bigger range disadvantages. The adept can ensure that every battle starts favorable. Most units in the game take a big stats-tradeoff for their ranged attacks, the adept doesn't care about that and can turn every combat in a stats for stats comparison. Which, granted, it isn't that great at in many scenarios, but which totally neglects fun or strategic unit interactions.
I agree with your bit about Psionic Transfer. The top half, maybe not so much.
On January 08 2016 03:21 Topdoller wrote: From what i have seen its the Shade ability thats the issue, as Terran just doesnt have the mobility to keep up with it in the early game.
Why dont they make it so it cant be canceled once triggered, then at least Protoss has to think about it rather than having the opposition bounce around their own base like a headless chicken trying to catch the things
If you can't cancel it then there's nothing to think about. The shade becomes the unit and they'll just follow the shade. At best it will just be used to retreat since it's faster than the regular movement speed of the Adept.
On January 08 2016 01:13 travis wrote: So people are calling for nerfs of the race performing the worst in all matchups? Specifically, absymally bad in pvz.
On January 08 2016 03:21 Topdoller wrote: From what i have seen its the Shade ability thats the issue, as Terran just doesnt have the mobility to keep up with it in the early game.
Why dont they make it so it cant be canceled once triggered, then at least Protoss has to think about it rather than having the opposition bounce around their own base like a headless chicken trying to catch the things
If you can't cancel it then there's nothing to think about. The shade becomes the unit and they'll just follow the shade. At best it will just be used to retreat since it's faster than the regular movement speed of the Adept.
Yes but at least if the Terran splits his forces he knows the Shades will have to appear. At the moment Protoss is using it to split up the Terran force into small chunks due to its massive range.
The cancel is basically a teleport which is superior to blink
Terran cant be covering all their bases in the early game, as they rely on stim + medivac for mobility
On January 08 2016 03:21 Topdoller wrote: From what i have seen its the Shade ability thats the issue, as Terran just doesnt have the mobility to keep up with it in the early game.
Why dont they make it so it cant be canceled once triggered, then at least Protoss has to think about it rather than having the opposition bounce around their own base like a headless chicken trying to catch the things
If you can't cancel it then there's nothing to think about. The shade becomes the unit and they'll just follow the shade. At best it will just be used to retreat since it's faster than the regular movement speed of the Adept.
Yes but at least if the Terran splits his forces he knows the Shades will have to appear. At the moment Protoss is using it to split up the Terran force into small chunks due to its massive range.
Terran cant be covering all their bases in the early game, as they rely on stim + medivac for mobility
The problem is you can't split up your forces. You do that and the adepts will kill the two chunks in straight up fights.
In the early game, it's only used to kill workers (and marines, because Terran doesn't have many great early-game options and adepts can snowball with near-instant reinforcement).
In the mid-game, it's used partially for its damage versus light, but mostly to tank for other units.
In the late-game, it's only used versus very heavy light-army compositions or to tank for the (almost exclusively) armored Protoss forces.
Rather than having 50%+ of its damage tied up in +light, the unit should be generalized by flattening the damage (something like 15 damage versus all armor types ... or possibly very slightly more) so that it doesn't rule the roost early game versus Terran while seeing continually decreasing usage throughout the game (except when it precludes light-armor based armies).
As for the warp-prism itself ... a nerf to the warp-in speed could well preclude further balance problems.
Blizzard already heavily nerfed proxy-pylons, why not move the 5-HotS-second warp-in behind an upgrade (WPs would then take the 16-HotS seconds to warp-in) or possibly remove it entirely so that players have a bigger window to respond to warp prisms. If compensation was felt necessary ... they could increase the cargo capacity of the warp-prism so that more units could actually be dropped into a base instead of warped in.
Such a change would remove a lot of the gimmicky feeling of warp-prisms while still allowing Protoss drops to feel threatening (and allowing skillful players to save more units from late drop & warp-in combos).
Doing a combination of changes seems most needed here because the race isn't dominating PvT, even with the early lead, nor is it doing spectacularly amazing in PvZ ... and improving the design of both these early units (which are causing the trouble in PvT) will certainly help to remove later possible problems.
On January 09 2016 12:31 Edowyth wrote: Really, the adept is just kind of badly designed.
In the early game, it's only used to kill workers (and marines, because Terran doesn't have many great early-game options and adepts can snowball with near-instant reinforcement).
In the mid-game, it's used partially for its damage versus light, but mostly to tank for other units.
In the late-game, it's only used versus very heavy light-army compositions or to tank for the (almost exclusively) armored Protoss forces.
Rather than having 50%+ of its damage tied up in +light, the unit should be generalized by flattening the damage (something like 15 damage versus all armor types ... or possibly very slightly more) so that it doesn't rule the roost early game versus Terran while seeing continually decreasing usage throughout the game (except when it precludes light-armor based armies).
As for the warp-prism itself ... a nerf to the warp-in speed could well preclude further balance problems.
Blizzard already heavily nerfed proxy-pylons, why not move the 5-HotS-second warp-in behind an upgrade (WPs would then take the 16-HotS seconds to warp-in) or possibly remove it entirely so that players have a bigger window to respond to warp prisms. If compensation was felt necessary ... they could increase the cargo capacity of the warp-prism so that more units could actually be dropped into a base instead of warped in.
Such a change would remove a lot of the gimmicky feeling of warp-prisms while still allowing Protoss drops to feel threatening (and allowing skillful players to save more units from late drop & warp-in combos).
Doing a combination of changes seems most needed here because the race isn't dominating PvT, even with the early lead, nor is it doing spectacularly amazing in PvZ ... and improving the design of both these early units (which are causing the trouble in PvT) will certainly help to remove later possible problems.
If u nerf WP to adress TvP, you kill the only harass tool protoss has in PvZ. While I agree Adepts all-in are a powerful strategy, I also noticed that this is because most of terrans are anchored to old hots meta. They can't be aggressive off 2 bases anymore, true, but this is only because they want to place a fast expansion. Look how bad some hots proes are doing in lotv, like innovation and look how "new" proes are doing well when adapting the strategy to new units like cyclone and libs.
In hots, Protoss opened every game with robo because of widow mines: opening stargate was just a bet. Now it's the same for terrans: want to take fast exp? than it's ur bet.
While some terrans manage to counter properly the all in just by doing fast stim off 3 rax, placing correclt libs and cyclones off 2 bases, others are just exploring new tactis. Terran could start off 1 base with cyclone or lib harass, hit before 4 min mark and do HUGE damage to protoss, expecially with 1-2 cyclones. It will cripple protoss economy or just delay tech path (and eventually the drop). Terrans take a delayed 2nd, but protoss will be behind anyway because cyclones and libs are not countered easly in early game.
Anyway, I think giving adepts flat damage is still good, because they become really weak in late game. I should be something more than 15 anyway, like 20, to make them well rounded unit (it should be core) but not so strong to 2shot marines in early.
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
I personally think it's completely retarded that all 3 races are capable of having strong drop ships so damn early...
Drop ships should be something that takes time and investment to get. They come out far far too early.
Damn the economic curve of this game is so shitty. I completely understand why they want to skip the boring parts of the beginning of the game and get to action. But action can start with t1 units slowly working towards t3. Not instant t2-t2.5 units being teched to already at the start of the game..,
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
I personally think it's completely retarded that all 3 races are capable of having strong drop ships so damn early...
Drop ships should be something that takes time and investment to get. They come out far far too early.
Damn the economic curve of this game is so shitty. I completely understand why they want to skip the boring parts of the beginning of the game and get to action. But action can start with t1 units slowly working towards t3. Not instant t2-t2.5 units being techies to already at the start of the game..,
Since WoL, all balance issues` been adjusted; 4 gate was nerfed by increasing time requirement for Warp Gate. 111 was adjusted by increasing Immortal`s range to 6
Adept has already been nerfed a lot more than both of these.
On January 08 2016 04:53 travis wrote: As far as design goes, another idea that could be played with would be to make adepts unable to attack while a shade is present.
Decent idea. It would make sending out shades a tactical decision while still preserving the ability to attack two mineral lines at once (with shade cancel).
I'm playing the hell out of custom balance test mod, that includes the armored tag on Adepts, as well as overcharge revamp. Initial tests are heartening.
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
I personally think it's completely retarded that all 3 races are capable of having strong drop ships so damn early...
Drop ships should be something that takes time and investment to get. They come out far far too early.
Damn the economic curve of this game is so shitty. I completely understand why they want to skip the boring parts of the beginning of the game and get to action. But action can start with t1 units slowly working towards t3. Not instant t2-t2.5 units being techies to already at the start of the game..,
Well, this is effectively the purpose of the economic changes.
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
I personally think it's completely retarded that all 3 races are capable of having strong drop ships so damn early...
Drop ships should be something that takes time and investment to get. They come out far far too early.
Damn the economic curve of this game is so shitty. I completely understand why they want to skip the boring parts of the beginning of the game and get to action. But action can start with t1 units slowly working towards t3. Not instant t2-t2.5 units being techies to already at the start of the game..,
Well, this is effectively the purpose of the economic changes.
I don't believe that from the intent of what they mentioned at the time the changes are made. After 12 worker start they even went through months of messing with macro mechanics to slow down the game. And the pacing felt great with no macro mechanics at all... but they slowly trickled them back in and reverted to nearly full mechanics.
All evidence points to them simply not having enough time to balance the macro mechanics properly with the release date getting pushed up (before the release date announcement, the LotV store page said released March 2016, then they suddenly announce release date near Blizzcon and revert all changes). And now we're stuck with 12 worker start PLUS macro mechanics, which is just ridiculous.
Since WoL, all balance issues` been adjusted; 4 gate was nerfed by increasing time requirement for Warp Gate. 111 was adjusted by increasing Immortal`s range to 6
Adept has already been nerfed a lot more than both of these.
Since WoL, all balance issues` been adjusted; 4 gate was nerfed by increasing time requirement for Warp Gate. 111 was adjusted by increasing Immortal`s range to 6
Adept has already been nerfed a lot more than both of these.
Since WoL, all balance issues` been adjusted; 4 gate was nerfed by increasing time requirement for Warp Gate. 111 was adjusted by increasing Immortal`s range to 6
Adept has already been nerfed a lot more than both of these.
There have been 0 balance changes on live.
Because we had a 9 month beta
There was nothing special about lotv beta compared to the others. New units getting more changes also just makes sense. The widow mine was changed in 9/10 of the first hots updates. One of the two adept nerfs was also reverted in beta, not that that's important.
On January 08 2016 04:53 travis wrote: As far as design goes, another idea that could be played with would be to make adepts unable to attack while a shade is present.
On January 08 2016 04:53 travis wrote: As far as design goes, another idea that could be played with would be to make adepts unable to attack while a shade is present.
A while ago I suggested this on the battle.net forums and discovered that those people are useless. Well, technically my suggestion was being unable to move (and/or possibly attack?) while the shade was out. Regardless, I still think this is the best idea.
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
I personally think it's completely retarded that all 3 races are capable of having strong drop ships so damn early...
Drop ships should be something that takes time and investment to get. They come out far far too early.
Damn the economic curve of this game is so shitty. I completely understand why they want to skip the boring parts of the beginning of the game and get to action. But action can start with t1 units slowly working towards t3. Not instant t2-t2.5 units being techies to already at the start of the game..,
Well, this is effectively the purpose of the economic changes.
I don't believe that from the intent of what they mentioned at the time the changes are made. After 12 worker start they even went through months of messing with macro mechanics to slow down the game. And the pacing felt great with no macro mechanics at all... but they slowly trickled them back in and reverted to nearly full mechanics.
All evidence points to them simply not having enough time to balance the macro mechanics properly with the release date getting pushed up (before the release date announcement, the LotV store page said released March 2016, then they suddenly announce release date near Blizzcon and revert all changes). And now we're stuck with 12 worker start PLUS macro mechanics, which is just ridiculous.
Their intent was to remove the 'boring' and 'no-action' early game by violently increasing the speed of development, which is what a major proportion of the community wanted. Having faster technology, including faster dropships, are simply an intended effect of this change .
On January 07 2016 20:34 Musicus wrote: The Adept harassment in combination with the Warp Prism is what JYP and many others consider OP. I don't think nerfing the Adept straight up is good, nerfing the WP is way better. It should either cost gas or be nerfed. What the War Prism provides for it's cost right now is just not fair, if you look at the cost and usefulness of any other unit in the game (except maybe the MSC).
I personally think it's completely retarded that all 3 races are capable of having strong drop ships so damn early...
Drop ships should be something that takes time and investment to get. They come out far far too early.
Damn the economic curve of this game is so shitty. I completely understand why they want to skip the boring parts of the beginning of the game and get to action. But action can start with t1 units slowly working towards t3. Not instant t2-t2.5 units being techies to already at the start of the game..,
Well, this is effectively the purpose of the economic changes.
I don't believe that from the intent of what they mentioned at the time the changes are made. After 12 worker start they even went through months of messing with macro mechanics to slow down the game. And the pacing felt great with no macro mechanics at all... but they slowly trickled them back in and reverted to nearly full mechanics.
All evidence points to them simply not having enough time to balance the macro mechanics properly with the release date getting pushed up (before the release date announcement, the LotV store page said released March 2016, then they suddenly announce release date near Blizzcon and revert all changes). And now we're stuck with 12 worker start PLUS macro mechanics, which is just ridiculous.
Their intent was to remove the 'boring' and 'no-action' early game by violently increasing the speed of development, which is what a major proportion of the community wanted. Having faster technology, including faster dropships, are simply an intended effect of this change .
If it were intended, they would not have spent the last few months of beta trying to figure out how they could slow the game. Several community updates were dedicated to that exact subject. Plans did not get scrapped until it became too close to launch, and in their posts explaining the reasoning for reverting the macro mechanics to the current state, they never stated it was to increase the speed of technology. That is one of the things they were attempting to slow down the game for. They simply didn't have time to do it before launch.
They listed many reasons as to why they were putting macro mechanics in. To speed up the economy was never one of their reasons. It's a side affect they neglected to mention and apparently an aspect of the game they don't want to bring any attention to.
On January 08 2016 04:53 travis wrote: As far as design goes, another idea that could be played with would be to make adepts unable to attack while a shade is present.
+1 for this, + increase cooldown + warp prism range reduce.
The biggest issue with the adept and the biggest issue with protoss in general is warp in. If the adepts couldn't be insta reinforced this wouldn't be an issue.
I haven't seen any one suggest this yet, but what if the shades were target-able? They can work similarly in mechanics as hallucinations (with low attack/target priority) and killing the shades cancels the teleport. This would stop the adepts from just walking the shades into mineral lines. The player would have to micro the shades to be close but not too close. Furthermore it rewards the defender's micro and focus fire. Lastly, timing the shades so that it IS possible to walk into the mineral line becomes more important as well. A new micro strategy that might develop from such a change is to shade not all at once but shade in 2-3 adepts in first, then shade the rest in. since the shade doesn't collide with units, you can't use them to meatshield; but the adepts draws aggro so the other shades can survive.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jjQAnze.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Bm4ms0r.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vXgx0HE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PWFrJRI.jpg)
