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On January 13 2016 00:40 Iksf wrote:
Sigh, business in asia. Always the same things: incompetence, nepotism, lies, loans, faking capital or investors... Sweeping statement sure, plenty of perfectly brilliant Asian businesses, but with all the talk of how tomorrow is an Asian's world; people often forget how behind and messed up Asia is on some things.
*cough* South Sea Company *cough*
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On January 13 2016 00:40 Iksf wrote:
Sigh, business in asia. Always the same things: incompetence, nepotism, lies, loans, faking capital or investors... Sweeping statement sure, plenty of perfectly brilliant Asian businesses, but with all the talk of how tomorrow is an Asian's world; people often forget how behind and messed up Asia is on some things.
isn't the same in europe and america and like everywhere ? maybe less obvious than in asia though
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On January 13 2016 00:40 Iksf wrote:
Sigh, business in asia. Always the same things: incompetence, nepotism, lies, loans, faking capital or investors... Sweeping statement sure, plenty of perfectly brilliant Asian businesses, but with all the talk of how tomorrow is an Asian's world; people often forget how behind and messed up Asia is on some things.
It's not like Volkswagen hasn't made a major mistake recently.. I'm not defending Asia though.
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On January 13 2016 03:34 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 00:40 Iksf wrote:
Sigh, business in asia. Always the same things: incompetence, nepotism, lies, loans, faking capital or investors... Sweeping statement sure, plenty of perfectly brilliant Asian businesses, but with all the talk of how tomorrow is an Asian's world; people often forget how behind and messed up Asia is on some things. isn't the same in europe and america and like everywhere ? maybe less obvious than in asia though
im sure theres businesses doing shady things all around the world. It's just how often would a foreigner hear about a midsize asian business on the news unless there was some big scandal involving it? I don't really have any data or statistics to back up my hunch but maybe we overestimate the rate of corruption in asian businesses.
with that said korea for example industrialized and grew economically in such a short period.
+ Show Spoiler [GDP chart] +
as amazing as it is, it definitely had some rough patches and shady eras with a lot of gang mafia presence and a lot of shortcuts(?)/bypassing laws, just looking at some issues today with the ship flipping over and building code violations and other shady stuff becoming uncovered. maybe the speed at which the country developed didnt really give it enough time to properly enforce code and laws? i dunno but maybe this idea kinda explains the reason why some asian companies are "behind and messed up."
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as amazing as it is, it definitely had some rough patches and shady eras with a lot of gang mafia presence and a lot of shortcuts(?)/bypassing laws, just looking at some issues today with the ship flipping over and building code violations and other shady stuff becoming uncovered. maybe the speed at which the country developed didnt really give it enough time to properly enforce code and laws? i dunno but maybe this idea kinda explains the reason why some asian companies are "behind and messed up."
This is quite accurate, except 'mafia presence'. Ironically, SK`s military regime repressed mafias harshly; it is always interesting to see people hating their own kind.
Rather, it was collusive ties between politicians and businessmen.
↓ Ironically as well, SK`s mafia problems were poped out after its democratisation(90`s). Hence the president declared a crackdown on organized crime that was quite successful at the moment.
So, they tried to discover a fallback in order to survive: Commercialisation. Since then, they`ve been trying to set up companies through which money could be saved (or laundered). However, because it`d been repressed by government for a long time, those mobs couldn`t become as big as triad or yakuza.
Still, it is known that some of'em are survived and remain quite influential; there`s no place free from crimes.
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maybe like certain movies influenced my judgement a bit on the topic haha I thought there was a small period of time where there was quite a lot of gang presence involved in the country from my understanding nowadays its extremely suppressed? im just korean who live in USA for very long time who is kinda removed from their politics and culture but sorta curious how its all running lately. thanks for the correction
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I'm not going to bother to put 3 paragraphs of common sense disclaimers any time I write a controversial opinion on the internet. Of course corruption and nepotism happen everywhere but Asia is generally has more issues in this area than America or Europe; simply due to rapid industrialisation and modernisation, foreign multinationals getting their claws in before the governments of the countries could put together all the laws and bodies required to manage these kinds of things, crime in some countries, cultural clashes and tribalistic attitude in some places, nepotism being an endorsed practice in confucianism etc.
I'm not sure what refering to a screw up from a British company in the 1700's has to do with anything, you don't need to go back to the colonial era to find examples of non Asian companies messing up this stuff, nor am I suggesting Asian countries have issues as deep as Britain did 300 years ago. It's a thorn in the side of Asian economies and some companies involved in Asia, not a rampant epidemic or bubble about to pop.
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Well, generally, developed nations are cleaner than developing nations. South Korea is somewhere in the middle.
The Confucian tradition in East Asia doesn't help either in terms of having shady crap. It has its pros and cons. Stronger nepotism is one of the cons.
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On January 13 2016 01:59 Lazare1969 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 00:40 Iksf wrote:
Sigh, business in asia. Always the same things: incompetence, nepotism, lies, loans, faking capital or investors... Sweeping statement sure, plenty of perfectly brilliant Asian businesses, but with all the talk of how tomorrow is an Asian's world; people often forget how behind and messed up Asia is on some things. This. Business people outside of Asia are selfless sweethearts who do what's right.
It does seem to be more widespread/blatant, though.
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On January 13 2016 07:01 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 01:59 Lazare1969 wrote:On January 13 2016 00:40 Iksf wrote:
Sigh, business in asia. Always the same things: incompetence, nepotism, lies, loans, faking capital or investors... Sweeping statement sure, plenty of perfectly brilliant Asian businesses, but with all the talk of how tomorrow is an Asian's world; people often forget how behind and messed up Asia is on some things. This. Business people outside of Asia are selfless sweethearts who do what's right. It does seem to be more widespread/blatant, though.
I'd say it's cleaner in Western Europe where people's rights have been fought longer historically, but US is pretty dark and dirty too by my standards. Not saying that Western Europe not dirty though, there are a lot of iffy things goings on too. Not sure other parts of the world though-- don't know too much about it.
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Con men exist everywhere, the asian shady is just a different style of shady, so it seems more rampant to us, while western shady seems "normal".
Just a few weeks ago i read in the newspapers about a guy that owned a claim for a windpark in the north sea that could never be built because it was in an area of the north sea the navy uses to train. He packaged that off with a power plant that apparently was not total shit. Then he created a new company, very aggressively looked for investors, and sold the claim and the power plant for double what they were worth to the new company. That company then went bankrupt, meaning the investors lost all of their money (Despite it being marketed as a "safe" investment), while the guy just pocketed the money from the "sale" of the windpark claim and power plant.
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Yaaaaaaa they got that sucker... About time
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what about all those fans who imported sbenu shoes to support the scene? ):
all these major sc2 vets who wanted a bright future? ): ...
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On January 13 2016 06:43 andrewlt wrote:
Well, generally, developed nations are cleaner than developing nations. South Korea is somewhere in the middle.
The Confucian tradition in East Asia doesn't help either in terms of having shady crap. It has its pros and cons. Stronger nepotism is one of the cons.
SK is TOP 15 in the Human Development Index as of 2014, in other words, SK is one of the developed nation in world.
I would agree with you if it was in the late 90's or early 2000's.
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On January 13 2016 11:15 nanaoei wrote:
what about all those fans who imported sbenu shoes to support the scene? ):
all these major sc2 vets who wanted a bright future? ): ...
I was going to, but Sbenu doesn't make clown shoes. (US size 13)
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On January 13 2016 14:22 styleworks79 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 06:43 andrewlt wrote:
Well, generally, developed nations are cleaner than developing nations. South Korea is somewhere in the middle.
The Confucian tradition in East Asia doesn't help either in terms of having shady crap. It has its pros and cons. Stronger nepotism is one of the cons. SK is TOP 15 in the Human Development Index as of 2014, in other words, SK is one of the developed nation in world. I would agree with you if it was in the late 90's or early 2000's.
It's all relative really. Plus the HDI doesn't take into account subjective factors like social and cultural factors. You could live a long time, make a lot of money and still be a giant douchebag.
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Unethical business dealings in the West and other more individualism driven areas are legalized and legitimized through lobbying and legislative channels.
Unethical business dealings in Asian and other more communitarianism driven areas are socialized through unwritten consensus and legitimized through mutually guaranteed privilege and advantage.
That's all there really is to it, in the end everybody understands whether or not their business dealings reside in a moral or legal grey area regardless of which part in the world they come from, the only difference is whether the prevailing corporate atmosphere coincides with the legislative and majority social power and how it manifests in society. The Swiss understand why assisting tax evasion and willful financial opaqueness is frowned upon, just as the Americans understand why deregulated and opportunistic financial markets are frowned upon, just as the Chinese understand why blatant social corruption is frowned up, and so on. All you can really do is look at the cause and effect of prevailing social trends in those areas and make personal choices about whether you wish to participate based on your arbitrary needs and wants optimization system.
As someone who comes from China where this type of socialized corruption is rampant, you can't even get your kids into good kindergartens and have the teachers be attentive to your child's growth and needs with out bribing a couple dozen officials and constantly paying cumulative social and financial upkeep to teachers and supervisors. But you do it because you want your kids to have good education, get a head start, and have a positive learning experience. If the social and legal system is toxic often there isn't actually a choice at all because the system is designed or evolved over time to capitalize on the fundamental needs and wants of stakeholders.
This isn't to preach moral relativism, I think everybody who is socially aware and does any degree of investigative thinking understands why their own societies are the way that they are, the only moral relevance is the choices that they personally make in their daily lives. Trying to subscribe to a strict code of ethics will often put you at a competitive disadvantage, it's as simple as that.
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On January 13 2016 14:22 styleworks79 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 06:43 andrewlt wrote:
Well, generally, developed nations are cleaner than developing nations. South Korea is somewhere in the middle.
The Confucian tradition in East Asia doesn't help either in terms of having shady crap. It has its pros and cons. Stronger nepotism is one of the cons. SK is TOP 15 in the Human Development Index as of 2014, in other words, SK is one of the developed nation in world. I would agree with you if it was in the late 90's or early 2000's.
not sure what the criteria was for that statistic, but if youre looking strictly at the economics then yes, south korea is a 'developed' country. i put developed in quotation marks because the big companies are literally dragging sk's numbers up like mad. gdp per capita is still very low in south korea for a developed country
if you look at lifestyle, cultural aspects, education etc then no, i would not consider south korea a developed country at all. and im saying this as a korean whos lived both in korea and overseas. dont let the strict school regimes and long study/work hours fool you, koreans severely lack common sense (the most broad and general way i can describe it). the things that go through the minds of many koreans still would shock and appall many people that were raised in western countries. korea's economy grew at a rate which the minds of the citizens could not, which is why there is an illusion that south korea is by all definitions a developed country, when in reality there is still some way to go.
none of this is particularly relevant to the sonic case though
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On January 13 2016 16:30 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 14:22 styleworks79 wrote:On January 13 2016 06:43 andrewlt wrote:
Well, generally, developed nations are cleaner than developing nations. South Korea is somewhere in the middle.
The Confucian tradition in East Asia doesn't help either in terms of having shady crap. It has its pros and cons. Stronger nepotism is one of the cons. SK is TOP 15 in the Human Development Index as of 2014, in other words, SK is one of the developed nation in world. I would agree with you if it was in the late 90's or early 2000's. gdp per capita is still very low in south korea for a developed country
b-but it`s higher than that of Spain!
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One problem, especially for forums that skew younger, is that it's easy to forget (or not understand) how long it takes to create certain things. A "good business environment" took hundreds of years to develop and take hold in the Northern European countries. The value that those business cultures could produce rapidly took over the world, but they're learned skills that take time.
South Korea was occupied before WW1 started, was a military authoritarian regime until 1987, and has less than 30 years of Self-rule. The entire culture has a whole lot to learn still. They're also still in the grip of their Debt-fueled Asset bubble. (Though it's not quite as bad as other countries.) This creates its own social disjunctions.
But the "old ways" are going to be around for a while. It's always hard to understand, from a Western point of view, how certain forms of collusion & bribery aren't just legal but actually expected in Business in the East. (Though different contexts between the cultures.) While at the same time, South Korea is rapidly Christianizing (along with parts of China), which will cause another dislocation due to further shifts of expectations and personal accountability. But we'll still get events like with Sonic. It's just the nature of things.
Lastly, there's an important "good governance" maxim to remember: there's also shady things happening, they only become evident when the things go wrong with the economy. (And we're headed into a global recession, if we're not already there.)
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EPT![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/South_Korea_GDP_%28PPP%29.png)
