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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
That will be the only way to somewhat level the playing field and then you can use the ladder to send invites for tournaments in a fair way. Of course they would also have to get rid of that silly league system they have now and just have 1 big no fuss ladder. By taking the few Koreans you have out of the foreign scene, the foreign level of play will only drop further. You become the best by playing the best. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On December 16 2015 20:12 Technique wrote: They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers. That will be the only way to somewhat level the playing field and then you can use the ladder to send invites for tournaments in a fair way. Of course they would also have to get rid of that silly league system they have now and just have 1 big no fuss ladder. By taking the few Koreans you have out of the foreign scene, the foreign level of play will only drop further. You become the best by playing the best. A lagfree global server would be soooo fucking amazing. But in this case, I actually believe them when they say the technology is just not there yet. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On December 16 2015 20:12 Technique wrote: They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers. That will be the only way to somewhat level the playing field and then you can use the ladder to send invites for tournaments in a fair way. Of course they would also have to get rid of that silly league system they have now and just have 1 big no fuss ladder. By taking the few Koreans you have out of the foreign scene, the foreign level of play will only drop further. You become the best by playing the best. Except that never seemed to happen and all it did was basically crush the foreigner scene because they had no endgame and they could not keep up with the system and organization that the korean scene already had and still has. The WCS system was basically modeled after LCS in the first place so I am not sure why they did not just go all the way with it from the start and if they had perhaps it would not have tanked SC2 as much as it has over the past couple years. | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2622 Posts
On December 16 2015 20:12 Technique wrote: They should find a way to fix lag issues across regions and have everyone ladder on the same servers. Uhhh... you do realize ping is limited by the speed of light right? Latency isn't something you can just "fix"... The distance between NY and Paris is 5.8K kilometers which is around 40 ping round trip. That is the ABSOLUTE minimum ping you can have. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23570 Posts
On December 16 2015 20:22 Adreme wrote: Except that never seemed to happen and all it did was basically crush the foreigner scene because they had no endgame and they could not keep up with the system and organization that the korean scene already had and still has. The WCS system was basically modeled after LCS in the first place so I am not sure why they did not just go all the way with it from the start and if they had perhaps it would not have tanked SC2 as much as it has over the past couple years. Honstely, if WCS would've had a full region lock from the start nobody would've complained, lots of people would've invested into sc2 (like CLG planned to, but pulled out after region lock was not a thing) and the IEMs, DHs, HSCs and BlizzCon would've been incredibly hyped since you would see foreigners clash vs koreans. But now it's just a mess and no matter what they do, a lot of people won't be happy. | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On December 16 2015 18:58 infii wrote: Is it really so hard to put 1 and 1 together? We need to find a way to foster new players you say? Let’s do this step by step:
Foreign communities failed to build an infrastructure that fosters good players through sheer interest like south korea. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t do it at all. The goal is to create competitive communities which are able to bring out players who are able to play on korean level. Of course this is unfair and sounds like welfare for bad players right now. That’s because it IS unfair. But without actions like region locking the foreign communities will dry out and diminish to a very small circle of elitists and hardcore enthusiasts. Keep in mind that region locking will help the community only over a long period of time and that is what most people here fail to realize. It’s not an instant problem solver but more so a first step in the right direction. To add to your argument, I think the foreign community hasn't done a good job since they tournament organizers began to merge the communities (Korean and non-Korean) starting from the top, instead of helping the community grow from the bottom. When you think of it, it's never a good idea, you can find an example analogy everywhere. Imagine Spanish and Polish or Irish football teams playing the game together to fight for the spots. Imagine NBA playing alongside any lesser league basketball teams to fight for the spots. Who is going to be constantly on top? And for the misguided interest and hopes of money placed in Korea, we, foreigners pay the price - we have to play the catch-up game ever since. There needs to be something that works for the lower-league players, the shrinking number of pros playing since the beta SC2 going away because of the real life is not something that community needs to focus on, because it's obvious that they will retire sooner or later. Local tournaments are the best and probably only way to do it, but who wants to spend their life and put their money on that? Why they would do it, if only "skill" and "Koreans" bring the viewers? If only people stopped caring about ad revenues and numbers on Twitch... I'll omit the ongoing guessing on what brings the viewers and what does not. But that is going to be very hard, because people want the tournaments to be "high-skilled", not best for all of the players. They want to have a Champions League out of nothing. I would love to see lower-tier tournaments sponsored by Blizzard, not being plaguuuu-ed with Koreans or top foreigners acting as money-grabbers. Don't get me wrong, they are not bad for the community, but players shouldn't reach lower than they can. Hopefully these lower-tier things would spark the interest of sponsors and create hope for players around the world, that they can achieve something not having to be constantly bashed by herO, sOs, Rain or who else coming to Dreamhacks and such. It's obvious that foreigners won't get better by not playing these players, but what benefit does it have to have them come only for the bigger tournaments? If there is no incentive for them to practice on not their own server, we need different approach. Imagine national WCS (the way it was in 2012, local qualifiers and stuff) going alongside what we had this year. I would love that. Maybe this would spark the interest for the infrastructure. I don't advocate region locking everything, region lock lower level stuff. But again, who would want to sink money into this... WCS Europe wasn't hype? It was ultra-hype. And there was no single Korean. | ||
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infii
Germany153 Posts
On December 16 2015 20:32 aQuaSC wrote: To add to your argument, I think the foreign community hasn't done a good job since they tournament organizers began to merge the communities (Korean and non-Korean) starting from the top, instead of helping the community grow from the bottom. When you think of it, it's never a good idea, you can find an example analogy everywhere. Imagine Spanish and Polish or Irish football teams playing the game together to fight for the spots. Imagine NBA playing alongside any lesser league basketball teams to fight for the spots. Who is going to be constantly on top? And for the misguided interest and hopes of money placed in Korea, we, foreigners pay the price - we have to play the catch-up game ever since. There needs to be something that works for the lower-league players, the shrinking number of pros playing since the beta SC2 going away because of the real life is not something that community needs to focus on, because it's obvious that they will retire sooner or later. Local tournaments are the best and probably only way to do it, but who wants to spend their life and put their money on that? Why they would do it, if only "skill" and "Koreans" bring the viewers? If only people stopped caring about ad revenues and numbers on Twitch... I'll omit the ongoing guessing on what brings the viewers and what does not. But that is going to be very hard, because people want the tournaments to be "high-skilled", not best for all of the players. They want to have a Champions League out of nothing. I would love to see lower-tier tournaments sponsored by Blizzard, not being plaguuuu-ed with Koreans or top foreigners acting as money-grabbers. Don't get me wrong, they are not bad for the community, but players shouldn't reach lower than they can. Hopefully these lower-tier things would spark the interest of sponsors and create hope for players around the world, that they can achieve something not having to be constantly bashed by herO, sOs, Rain or who else coming to Dreamhacks and such. It's obvious that foreigners won't get better by not playing these players, but what benefit does it have to have them come only for the bigger tournaments? If there is no incentive for them to practice on not their own server, we need different approach. Imagine national WCS (the way it was in 2012, local qualifiers and stuff) going alongside what we had this year. I would love that. Maybe this would spark the interest for the infrastructure. I don't advocate region locking everything, region lock lower level stuff. But again, who would want to sink money into this... WCS Europe wasn't hype? It was ultra-hype. And there was no single Korean. Well from the korean POV eu/na gm is in fact lower league. But aside from that, there are lower league tournaments. It's just that nobody wants to watch it. Take SCVRush as an example. A bunch of really nice guys hosting, organizing and casting tournaments for almost anyone (gold/plat, plat/dia, dia/ma, etc.) for about 2-3 years now I think. Still they remain less known as e.g. HSC, ESL, etc. | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On December 16 2015 20:45 infii wrote: Well from the korean POV eu/na gm is in fact lower league. But aside from that, there are lower league tournaments. It's just that nobody wants to watch it. Take SCVRush as an example. A bunch of really nice guys hosting, organizing and casting tournaments for almost anyone (gold/plat, plat/dia, dia/ma, etc.) for about 2-3 years now I think. Still they remain less known as e.g. HSC, ESL, etc. You're right. There are lower level tournaments, but what would happen if they were backed up by Blizzard? Last time I took a look on a lower league tournament, it was ASL - with an ad plugin that was needed to watch it. It's obvious that people don't like it. In my opinion most of the things lower level for now is aimed on personal interest and making money out of it. And it's not a bad thing, not at all. As I said, I think lower level tournament infrastructure backed up by Blizzard would be a miracle. I remember CraftCups and ZOTAC Cups from the WoL beta, they were very good. Because they felt prestigeous. Now that prestige is gone because hopes that people had in this game have gone away with Koreans and the only thing worth playing for was WCS. Is every amateur player in any sport dreaming about playing in the highest league? Of course, but they are not dreaming about being crushed by them with the skill and abilities they currently have. Would it be a dishonour for a player to play on a WCS league with no Koreans? I guess... no? And on top of all, StarCraft is often frustrating. In my and many others opinion it's the best e-sport title of all time, counting in Brood War - which unfortunately I didn't follow back in the day for obvious reasons - riddled by misguided interest and western-style race for money. EDIT: I wanted to add, that I know about the existence of the lower level tournaments, but there are many of them, individual leagues, team leagues, some totally free, some with money - these with money have the same people over and over again either because they invite people or just they need this money to sustain themselves as professionals. These divisions need to end and become a centralized thing. Creating an incentive is essential. "But there are tournaments, why are people not playing in them?" - probably because not many people even heard about them. There is a world outside of teamliquid and screddit. | ||
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Swisslink
2949 Posts
On December 16 2015 08:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote: German Hockey League only allows 2 Canadians per team. This allows German players to get better. The KHL limits foriegn participation. If I dig around I can find at least 10 more leagues with region locks. Don Cherry wants the CHL to put the clamps down on non-Canadians participating in the WHL OHL QMJHL and lays down a good case for it. There is lots of region locking in hockey. The only league that does not have it is the best league in the world. The primary purpose of that league is entertainment and money making. The purpose of region locking in Hockey is to make weaker country's local players better The purpose of region locking in Germany and other places is to grow and develop local talent. My uncle broke 5,000 scoring records in the German league and they kept him as a coach after he retired. The Germans recognized that he understood more about hockey than most of their native coaches. Over the past 10 years he has helped develop the weaker German players. They are getting better and region locking is working. if there were no region lock in german hockey leagues more than half the players would be canadian because of the money you can make there and less german players would be on the roster. Region locking works in hockey and if a similar model is adopted in competitive SC2 leagues that are a notch below the top level of the game it'll work as well. Again: You have to distinguish between insividual sports and team sports. If SC2 had a team-league system (Proleague in EU/NA), I doubt anyone would argue that a region lock would be a bad thing. In a perfect world, where teams in EU/NA are somewhat consistent (which they are not of course), I'd love to see some kind of Team Competition between these regions. Maybe the top 2 teams of each region in a global team league final? 2 Chinese, 2 EU, 2 NA and 2 Korean Teams to battle out for the global team championship. But as an individual sports, where most players live by their tournament prizemoney, such a format does not work. To compare it to tennis again: Davis Cup is cool and no one would argue that Spain should have 2 teams in the competition, because they have the most players in the Top 20 (I'd assume). But in an individual tournament, it'd be really weird to have some kind of region lock. In individual tournaments, you play for yourself and nofor your country or team (in the first place); in team events you don't. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
- We need REAL teams, not "sponsors" faking as teams. (EG is a joke, look how KT / SKT work) - We need a system to manage those teams. (KeSPA like) - We need someone to finance all of this. (KeSPA + Sponsors like) Until then, we are just going in circles and we won't get anywhere. | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On December 16 2015 21:06 WrathSCII wrote: Basically what we need for foreigners is infrastructure like the Korean one: - We need REAL teams, not "sponsors" faking as teams. (EG is a joke, look how KT / SKT work) - We need a system to manage those teams. (KeSPA like) - We need someone to finance all of this. (KeSPA + Sponsors like) Until then, we are just going in circles and we won't get anywhere. That's the dream. But it won't happen unless people stop thinking about it in terms of income and ad revenue. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On December 16 2015 21:25 aQuaSC wrote: That's the dream. But it won't happen unless people stop thinking about it in terms of income and ad revenue. That's thy we need Apple, Google and others in there. Can you imagine the hype when Samsung is playing Apple, or MS is faced against Google? Intel vs AMD? nVidia vs AMD? Those would be hyped matches! Sadly these companies are not interested in having a team. And they could afford one(well, AMD maybe not) | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On December 16 2015 21:41 deacon.frost wrote: That's thy we need Apple, Google and others in there. Can you imagine the hype when Samsung is playing Apple, or MS is faced against Google? Intel vs AMD? nVidia vs AMD? Those would be hyped matches! Sadly these companies are not interested in having a team. And they could afford one(well, AMD maybe not) Oh no, not Apple :s haha. I think it would be a disgrace for some to play under Apple :D and super-awesome for others... But yeah, I share your view. I wish someone could throw some money on the table without "investing" it, as it is probably a high-risk guessing game if the "investment" would give a return or not. I don't know what's the situation with the Korean teams, does anyone know how exactly their sponsorship structure looks like? | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On December 16 2015 21:25 aQuaSC wrote: That's the dream. But it won't happen unless people stop thinking about it in terms of income and ad revenue. Yeah yeah, because these real teams just fly by. | ||
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Timelog
Netherlands57 Posts
On December 16 2015 21:41 deacon.frost wrote: Well ,the companies seem to be interested in as much as they do participate in the AHGL: http://afterhoursgaming.tv/starcraft-2-season-5/teams/ There just is no infrastructure for them to pour money into, so until foreign teams become relevant, and not rekt by Koreans in all tourmanets, I don't see anything changing. And for that to happen, I do feel like you need to make it possible for foreigners to begin winning tournaments that matter (read, have a high price pool). And as those are the WCS-points giving tournaments, I do see merit in Region Locking.That's thy we need Apple, Google and others in there. Can you imagine the hype when Samsung is playing Apple, or MS is faced against Google? Intel vs AMD? nVidia vs AMD? Those would be hyped matches! Sadly these companies are not interested in having a team. And they could afford one(well, AMD maybe not) | ||
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Horiken
Japan68 Posts
On December 16 2015 20:27 Musicus wrote: Honstely, if WCS would've had a full region lock from the start nobody would've complained, lots of people would've invested into sc2 (like CLG planned to, but pulled out after region lock was not a thing) and the IEMs, DHs, HSCs and BlizzCon would've been incredibly hyped since you would see foreigners clash vs koreans. But now it's just a mess and no matter what they do, a lot of people won't be happy. I agree. They should start full-region lock system from 2013. It may be too late, but I think Blizzard should try something, at the start of this great expansion. | ||
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acommunistspy1
4 Posts
In 2000, the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism founded KeSPA to officialize, commercialize, and organize esports into a real "sport" en.wikipedia.org. I believe this is the key difference from the west. In the west, companies are undertaking a larger risk by investing in "unofficial" ventures with volatile future and many inexperienced teenagers. Whereas in Korea, KeSPA will provide a more stable support for these "official" games and provide many securities to their investment. (Just think of all KeSPA rules, regulations). By providing the initial investment and structure, Korean government really allowed esports to bloom there. I don't think private companies/sponsorships could create a whole esports scene like korea. Just as forms of space, genetic, internet technologies/market could not exist now if not for the initial funding/organization by the US government. I don't see this happening in US but hopefully something like this exists or will exist in Europe. | ||
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aQuaSC
717 Posts
On December 16 2015 23:41 acommunistspy1 wrote: I think the key difference between the West and Korea was government investment. In 1994, the Korean Ministry of Culture organized and promoted investment into the entertainment sector. This led to the current "Hallyu" Korean Wave of k-pop and k-shows. en.wikipedia.org In 2000, the Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism founded KeSPA to officialize, commercialize, and organize esports into a real "sport" en.wikipedia.org. I believe this is the key difference from the west. In the west, companies are undertaking a larger risk by investing in "unofficial" ventures with volatile future and many inexperienced teenagers. Whereas in Korea, KeSPA will provide a more stable support for these "official" games and provide many securities to their investment. (Just think of all KeSPA rules, regulations). By providing the initial investment and structure, Korean government really allowed esports to bloom there. I don't think private companies/sponsorships could create a whole esports scene like korea. Just as forms of space, genetic, internet technologies/market could not exist now if not for the initial funding/organization by the US government. I don't see this happening in US but hopefully something like this exists or will exist in Europe. That's so true. Now we are forced into a position where no government will support this environment like in Korea, and therefore Blizzard needs to lead it for the international community, not any private, not directly related, business. Unless by some miracle honest and influencial mastermind on a similar scale as Elon Musk or who else takes the lead. And as StarCraft II lost it's popularity over the course of last five years for the benefit of other titles due to decisions that were controversial, but not directly hurting the scene (boosting it for significant amount of time up to a point it got boring), it's very risky and possibly financially suicidal to invest in something that already passed it's peak to large group of people already. I have huge hopes in Blizzard reviving the scene. Inconsistent and in my opinion community exploiting ventures like pizza.gg mean nothing in the long run. I'm sure that free or discounted pizza or something is nothing wrong, but where they will be when they get the money they wanted? | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On December 16 2015 15:05 xyzz wrote: It's a piss poor counter too, because Finnish and Swedish leagues have similar quotas for foreign players, and these countries win medals in international hockey all the time. No it isn't because despite all that, what nations are known for the best Hockey and still dominate most of the tournaments? Canada, Russia and the US. The "Region Locks" in hockey have achieved exactly jack point fucking shit | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
On December 17 2015 01:17 showstealer1829 wrote: No it isn't because despite all that, what nations are known for the best Hockey and still dominate most of the tournaments? Canada, Russia and the US. The "Region Locks" in hockey have achieved exactly jack point fucking shit Seriously what? First of all you may want to check how many medals USA has from hockey, compared to let's say Sweden and Finland combined (in the last 20~ years Sweden and Finland have 11 olympic medals, while USA has 2. In fact even Russia and USA combined only have 7). Second of all, Finland and Sweden have a combined population of less than 15 million, and are huge success stories in the sport per capita. The 'region lock' has achieved its goal, which is a pile of olympic and world championship medals, including golden ones implying they were the best team/country in the world that year. Secondly, if small countries didn't have foreigner quotas, the sport wouldn't grow. Contrary to this generation of 'e-sport fans but not real sport fans', people actually like teams and players from their local city, and cheer for local kids, instead of just cheering for the most succesful and best team. Likewise, nobody has a problem with guys 'moving up' from the local league to the 'big league' like in hockey's case the NHL, or the KHL. Everyone knows the highest competition and the best players play there, and earn the most money. That's why it's indeed great to have multiple different types of leagues. A league with regional teams and regional players, where they can showcase their skill and get responsibility at important roles, and then international leagues where the best players from all countries can play. Now it's not really rocket science to see how this can be adopted to an e-sport: Regional tournaments where only American or European players can play, and then international tournaments where the best of the best can can compete. It's a ludicrous obsession that some people have that every tournament should be open to koreans, and that 99% of the prize money should be funneled to korea untill the end of time. I for one applaud Blizzard for doing something before the game's popularity has run its course completely. Finally it needs to be said that changes like this are done for the sake of the game/sport as a whole, and if succesful, it means that even the koreans benefit (Just like NHL benefits immensely from local leagues being great platforms for developing new young talent and spreading interest in the sport). If a massive starcraft 2 scene existed in the west, prize money would surely skyrocket overall, and then at the biggest stage the koreans would win it all and carry home a million bucks. It's extremely shortsighted to have elite players from one country plunder all the regional circuits untill they're so dry that there's nothing left. | ||
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