EPTI feel like I still have to figure him out though. I think he can be really good if used right, I just haven't figured out how to do that yet.
Fezvez's' Co-op guide and hero review - Page 8
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The Bottle
242 Posts
I feel like I still have to figure him out though. I think he can be really good if used right, I just haven't figured out how to do that yet. | ||
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Xsyq
143 Posts
I just don't see why Karax needs to be penalized cost-wise for getting units that aren't stronger than Swann's. Just comparing the two, Colossi with the fire trail ability are very strong, but so are Siege Tanks with Maelstrom Rounds. Immortals with Shadow Cannon are good all-round but Goliaths fill almost the same role for a third of the cost. Cannons/Khaydarin Monoliths have much less DPS and health than Perdition/Devastation/Missile Turrets and cost a lot more. They also can't be salvaged and need additional support from multiple Shield Batteries instead of just a couple SCVs repairing. Reconstruction Wave targets up to four units, but you can build many more than four Science Vessels as Swann and you have plenty of cost-free repairs from your SCVs. Just for reference, I play Swann quite a bit and can have my expansion up and two Perditions (150 minerals) defending by the first wave, with a couple siege tanks done and upgrades starting by the second. Karax relies on his Orbital Strikes to defend because even with a couple cannons and shield batteries (500 minerals) the first couple waves will get through. I think that's pretty much Karax in a nutshell: very strong calldowns and bad units to compensate. On paper this might look ok, but in practice it generally turns out to mean you run out of energy using all your powers because your units won't cut it and your ally ends up carrying you. I'd much rather have regularly-priced units and nerfed orbital calldowns than the current situation. | ||
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DrSeRRoD
United States490 Posts
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Alventenie
United States2147 Posts
For offense you basically are a support character until super super late game (which even then you dont have a giant deathball). I just mass energizers and then add higher tech units as needed later when I can support it. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
50% unit cost is just crippling beyond belief, especially at low levels. Did they even playtest this shit? EDIT: Levels fixed many of his grievances. Still way too slow to start contributing to a push. | ||
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Suchbalancemuchwow
76 Posts
And karax is just very cumbersome to play. Tower defense works really well coupled with infinity bombardments if you get the spear of adun upgrades going in game, but making an army is really a pain. when I got the instant pylon cannon upgrade I just went for a fast expand using cannons to kill the rocks on certain maps. Other then that, I'd say you should match the chrono with upgrades and making sure you use your first chrono to make a lot of probes. You are limited to basically one gas path because the unit cost is just soo high Personally I just went with zealots/colossus and bombardments to kill air. Making carriers is fun, but don't expect more then around 7 of em 18 minutes in the game. (525, 375 cost woot) | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On December 16 2015 18:35 AMonkeyCourier wrote: Aight, I'm pretty certain Karax is absolutely worthless compared to anyone else. 50% unit cost is just crippling beyond belief, especially at low levels. Did they even playtest this shit? Gonna echo this sentiment. At level 1, building units feels completely and utterly futile. First game I opened up on hard, and I wound up against terran on temple defense. I didn't build cannons, and holy fuck did I get slaughtered. My zealots are expensive as fuck, and don't respawn, I have absolutely no early AA at all(sentries don't do squat against banshees, can get 1v3'd or 1v4'd). Used the laser and not having the orbital strike to just nuke a single banshee basically meant dragging it to my partner. Needless to say, we didn't win. Karax is absolutely useless on any offense based map. Ramps up slow as fuck, and his units when un-upgraded are no better than standard protoss units, except they cost so much more. I'm thinking forge first might actually be better than gateway first because cannons are cheaper, stronger, and protect what precious few units you can build for the first few waves anyways. Brutal you'd be completely useless as anything other than cannon defense at early levels. My impression of Karax may change later, but for now he's terrible. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
On December 17 2015 06:03 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote: Well, I'm now lvl 15 with all commanders, including karax. And karax is just very cumbersome to play. Tower defense works really well coupled with infinity bombardments if you get the spear of adun upgrades going in game, but making an army is really a pain. when I got the instant pylon cannon upgrade I just went for a fast expand using cannons to kill the rocks on certain maps. Other then that, I'd say you should match the chrono with upgrades and making sure you use your first chrono to make a lot of probes. You are limited to basically one gas path because the unit cost is just soo high Personally I just went with zealots/colossus and bombardments to kill air. Making carriers is fun, but don't expect more then around 7 of em 18 minutes in the game. (525, 375 cost woot) Convergent troubleshooting. I also arrived at the conclusion of zeal as meatshields for colossi. Wasn't a hard conclusion, since that was literally the only comp that could remotely be said to work with the exception of sentry cheesing vs T/P. It has monstrous pushing power once it gets rolling and allows for smooth upgrades but it takes so much longer to put together than comparable forces. I've been prioritising solar upgrades 1 + 2 above all else, with zeals following, solar 3 next and colossi after that. What about you? | ||
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Suchbalancemuchwow
76 Posts
On December 17 2015 06:42 AMonkeyCourier wrote: Convergent troubleshooting. I also arrived at the conclusion of zeal as meatshields for colossi. Wasn't a hard conclusion, since that was literally the only comp that could remotely be said to work with the exception of sentry cheesing vs T/P. It has monstrous pushing power once it gets rolling and allows for smooth upgrades but it takes so much longer to put together than comparable forces. I've been prioritising solar upgrades 1 + 2 above all else, with zeals following, solar 3 next and colossi after that. What about you? I've been doing the same thing basically, solar bombardment can hold off anything without much trouble so going for a very slow setup on infastructure and upgrades (armor/attack) for zealot and colossi is all possible without ever being in any real danger. personally I never bother with zealot speed since their only goal in life is to tank damage and they tank worse with charge. + you need all the gas you can take. Sentry cheesing can infact help vs air yea. on the shuttle map I just made zealots and mass phoenix if I felt like actually making an army. The train map is just pure tower defense anyway, I never made a single unit on that map. as for easy lvling, Just play rifts off korhal on brutal. That map is a joke. you can win it by massing carriers even. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
A good point about the zealot charge, but I don't think their DPS is trivial. I'll try forgoing it and see if I notice any real issues. | ||
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The Bottle
242 Posts
I actually really like Karax, although no doubt he's slightly weaker than all the others I've played. (Zagara, Swann, and Vorazun, all level 15.) But there are some missions in which he's the strongest. I really think people are understating how powerful his solar core abilities are. Sometimes I would tell my ally to just move into a bonus objective and I'll support him with the core. They're usually suspicious because I don't have any units, or just a couple support energizers, and I'm telling them to move in, but I end up killing more than them on the incursion, just from core abilities. One of the biggest issues with Karax is that you can't often use him to carry your allies at a high level. So playing him is more sensitive to bad allies than the other heroes. The unit you will most often make are energizers. They will support your cannons and your ally. Even if you don't feel like making an army in one game, at the very least you should be making energizers to supplement your cannons. The cannon, battery, energizer combo is virtually unstoppable when set up right. In case you haven't figured out from the LotV campaign, put your batteries in front of your cannons with a small opening, so that melee units will dance around like crazy trying to get into the funnel you set for them. There are some pretty amazing defensive structures, like Zagara's bile launchers or Swann's upgraded turrets. But no static D in the game is stronger than Karax's upgraded battery, cannon, energizer combo. I always go forge first now. The way to do it is forge, then make a pylon and cannon at your rocks and let that cannon work on it for a while. I used to do two cannons, but I decided it wasn't worth it, plus there's a ton of upgrades I get early game, so it would take a while for me to afford nexus anyway. I can afford it by the time the rocks are broken by the cannon, but by then I have gotten, or am getting the first solar core upgrade, the cannon attack speed upgrade, and warp gate. Solar core is the first thing I spend my gas on, and I usually get the second solar upgrade almost immediately after the first, seeing as how most of your damage comes from the solar core. It's great that you can always stop the first few attack waves with it. The offensive maps, void thrasher and void crystals, are where Karax is the least useful. In that one, you don't want to focus too much on the defensive structure upgrades. (Sometimes I get the faster attack speed, but that's about it.) However, when you hit level 11, you'll want a probe following your army, so that it can make shield batteries. Anyway, in these maps you want to make energizers and zealots. Energizers to boost your ally and zealots to protect them. If you're against protoss or terran, get the energizer mech possession ability first, then the energy upgrade, then the zealot upgrades. If against zerg, just get the zealot upgrades. Actually, I'm thinking it may be a bad idea to get charge early on, just because they're meant to be meat shields not damagers (until you get a lot of them) so you want to reign them in for a while. For tech I go phoenix if it's the void crystal map, just because the bonus objective is an air unit. If it's thrashers, I get colossi. The shuttle mission is the only one in which I make carriers, but only way late in the game (basically I chrono them out for the last two waves). Otherwise, I do the super strong cannon-battery-energizer combo for each of the escape points, in the order in which they become a priority, and I protect them with my solar core. If Zagara is my ally then my defensive structures just spend most of the mission sitting and looking pretty, because her scourge usually kill them before they get to me. But they're still useful a lot of the time. Later on I get the carriers, and it helps stop some of the shuttles before they get to my defensive structures. The train mission, as others have said, is pure tower defense. I start making cannon-battery-energizers right outside the ramp at the north. It helps funnel the first attack wave while you kill them with orbital strikes. For the south end, I start in that big gap between the southern main tracks and the bonus tracks, so that the city you build there will be useful for both. In that mission I usually just get colossus; I don't remember air being a big problem that you can't solve with orbital strikes. The temple mission is probably the best for Karax. Tell your ally that you got the front, back, and your side covered. Get the solar core and building upgrades ASAP, and put a good setup of batteries and cannons on each side (batteries in front, of course, making a near-complete wall). I usually get a couple zealots and a bunch of energizers - some energizers to move with my army, and a couple to stay with the cannons. Later on, if my ally wasn't proactive about getting the bonus objectives, I start massing phoenix so that they can hit the objectives. If you're high enough level to get the mirage dodging ability, that makes them very sturdy and survivable against those bonuses. The lock mission, which may be my favourite one now, is the hardest for Karax to keep up with his upgrades because you build in a way that combines the offensive and defensive missions. I get an energizer zealot army, but also the cannon upgrades. For every lock we go towards, I bring a probe with us so that after we clear it, I build a whole cannon-battery array there, and leave an energizer or two to sit with them. Later on, I get either phoenix or colossus, whichever feels right. (Against zerg it's always colossus, because then I have robo tech and can make observers for their lurkers). If you set up the defense on each lock well enough, then you can hold them all with your orbital strikes and solar lances. I always leave a probe there, and take a new probe from my base to be our army follower. With a probe at each lock, you can just rebuild if you need to. Again, if it's terran or protoss, you get the energizer upgrades first, then zealot. Against zerg it's just zealot (and energizer/battery energy upgrade). Vs zerg this is one of the best missions to get your achievements, since they send more massive swarms of ling/roach/hydra in this one than any other mission, it seems. So you can use the lances and ultimate ability to kill them by the truckload. I am finding Karax to be extremely fun. He's certainly not trivial, and maybe one of the hardest heroes to keep up on upgrades. If they want to balance him, I can think of a few things they could do to make him stronger, such as improving the energy regeneration from solar core upgrades, or letting the level 2 or level 3 upgrade reduce the cost and cooldown of solar lance. I know people want to reduce the cost of units, but I don't think they should do that. I'm fine with Karax having a smaller army, but doing a whole lot more damage with the solar core. That's what makes him unique and separates him from the other heroes. So any sort of buff he gets should be to the solar core, not to the units IMO. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
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Beo[LMU]
4 Posts
I agree with some of the views layed out by "The Bottle", but will provide my own strategy. First of all: Karax is definitely not weak! I just think his problem is that in the early levels you still have not reached his full potential. Especially level 11 is a huge power boost! IMO by far the best strategy is to break the rocks with 2 cannons early on. You actually do have enough minerals to support an early nexus and will have your main and the expansion running fully at minute 6 (latest!), which is crazy. So you have by far the highest income of all commanders as others cannot expand that quickly (rocks are down even before Vorazun gets 50 Mana to destroy them). Ergo Build Order (pre level 11): 1. build probe and send out probe 2. build probe and pylon 3. build probe 4. build probe and forge 5. continue building probes until you hit 19; then build 2 cannons and attack rocks as soon as they finish (immediately with lvl 11). 6. continue buidling probes and build 2 vespine geysers (one shortly after the other) 7. continue buidling probes non-stop all the time; build gateway and Nexus (reverse order for lvl 11) 8. transfer probes to expansion and continue building probes (now in both nexi) and build cyber core and upgrade solar core as soon as you hit 200 gas. --> Win with great economy and liberal usage of orbital strike This way you have established a great economy and are free to play whichever style you like. I mostly dual Stargate for Carrier with Upgrades (do not forget Shields, which greatly benefit your cannons, as well!), as you can get all this done very quickly with Chrono Boost/Wave, so I usually join my ally with 1 or 2 Carriers in the first fight outside our base, which is nothing to scoff at early on! I think Colossi/Immortal combo is weaker, but if your ally builds great meat shields you can go for that as well. But it is usually bad to rely on your ally, if you don't know him already. Of course I also build a great cannon defense (I reccommend the way described above to funnel melee units with pylons/batteries) - I need a mineral dump after all! But starting with level 11 things get really fun. As Probes do not aggro you can always safely bring 1 or 2 along and instabuild a pylon on the battlefield and then start instadumping Cannons, even while the battle is raging, and turn the tide while providing crucial detection! (Lack of detection, as there is no Robotics Facility, used to be an issue.) Also very good for establishing a fall back point in case of overextension. I find cannons a much better investment than Sentinels which are okay for Karax level 1-10, but suck given this better option to invest your minerals. 1 Cannon > Sentinel (same costs). So overall you should always upgrade your Cannons (range, then attack speed, then shield battery) and shields and assuming you go air, start upgrading air early. If you plan on building Sentinels + Robo, do not forget to upgrade them and attacks/armor as well. Make your units count! (With this you rely on Antiair of your ally, which is another reason, why I prefer Carriers - although it is okay for Mission "Oblivion Express", as Immortal's Shadow Cannon + Orbital Strike will do). I can see a good point of building Energizers, although I usually find myself lacking vespine (Carriers and Upgrades are expensive), which is why I would build them only later on, when armies and defenses grow big enough to support their abilities. You can build Mirages in mission Void Launch to assist destroying shuttles, but Carriers are better still over all, I think. Both are pretty robust (even better later on) and massing them up is guaranteed! I cannot reccommend the third upgrade of the Solar Core too much, as it is very expensive. I also rarely find myself wanting for more energy regeneration, but sure get it later on if you really do lack energy. Imo best combo is Swann, as all his mech (e.g. Tanks/Goliaths) will be healed by your beam. So if you want to play as a team go for that set-up! Enjoy playing Karax! | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
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Wein
Brazil452 Posts
Im playing random maps on Brutal and takes forever to level up. | ||
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Suchbalancemuchwow
76 Posts
On December 17 2015 10:57 Wein wrote: Holy crap how you guys lvl up so fast? Im playing random maps on Brutal and takes forever to level up. For leveling the fastest, just play void thrashing on brutal. It's a very easy, and a very fast map and just repeat it over and over. If you truly feel like doing it super fast, go get a vorazun buddy to end the map in like 11minutes, cause time stop and dt's | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
On December 17 2015 11:05 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote: For leveling the fastest, just play void thrashing on brutal. It's a very easy, and a very fast map and just repeat it over and over. If you truly feel like doing it super fast, go get a vorazun buddy to end the map in like 11minutes, cause time stop and dt's Side effect: Sgt. Hammer yelling at you in your nightmares. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2475 Posts
Also, Karax with chornoboost + raynor when he's got like 15 rax and 15 CC's and is just non-stop spamming out units, good lord they build so fast lol. Karax is definitely pretty fun, I'm only level 8 right now but I have a blast with him. Started doing the whole forge first into fast expanding, upgrading solar core asap. The 5 energy blast is insanely strong (see ya waves #1 and #2) and the lance is quite ridiculous as well and it just completely melts almost everything in a line...and then you get 3 charges lol. Just played the shuttle map where my teammate left immediately so I got control of his units. Got 4 base, massed cannon/battery/monolyth on every exit and almost just went afk. Built a couple mirages/immortals just because I was scared the hybrids would bust down my cannon walls but nope, 1 probe sitting by each exit buliding more cannons as needed is amazing. It also makes me wish maps were a little bigger so I could have more then one expo, having 4 base was sooo much fun. | ||
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Suchbalancemuchwow
76 Posts
On December 17 2015 11:19 AMonkeyCourier wrote: Side effect: Sgt. Hammer yelling at you in your nightmares. Good thing you mention that, I was wondering if people actually like the new... dialogue. Personally I wasn't sorry whether to laugh or cry, or do both at the same time. I much prefer the standard dialogue from the actual commanders you were playing instead of stuff like CORPORAL FARAWAY and his rule of law, seriously what even is a rule of law, a law that is a rule? rules governed by laws? Point being, the only one I could stomach was Hill. | ||
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Beo[LMU]
4 Posts
You guys are really complicating things and distracting from his true strengths with the overuse of statics. You never need statics if you intercept attack waves correctly with zeal + col. Fire colossi are downright insane and should be consuming all of your gas after upgrades. Naturally, that leaves zeals as a meat shield for them while you handle AA with orbitals. I've yet to figure out an optimal build but I'm fairly sure upgrading spear first, followed by zombie zealots, then colossi would be best. I have to disagree. If you want to build a good ground army other commanders offer better options. His Orbital attacks, Defenses and Carriers are what he got going for him. Colossi alone just don't cut it. I tried it out and although you may firstly end up with bigger armies supply-wise they also die too quickly. And then the big problem of rebuilding it comes up, which is really hard because of high costs, so your army stays mediocre till the rest of the game, which might just cause you to lose. Better build Air that won't die in the first place and mass up bit by bit. Handling Air with Orbitals alone will not work on Brutal as well, as it drains your reserves "quick like". So you rely on your ally for anti air, once again, which, as we know, does not always go down so well. Also statics are not really static if you use them for attacking your opponent directly (tower rush), which is the way I propose to utilize them in maps where you need to move out to win. By the way I dislike Hammer Fortress' speaker so much. It gets so annoying to listen to her way of talking. Who the fuck put her in charge?! | ||
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