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On December 18 2015 23:02 AMonkeyCourier wrote:
They just seriously didn't think through the low level Karax experience. Cost increases to gateway units should be tied to unlocking their relevant upgrades.
I agree with this so much.
Also, I think it's overly cumbersome to require a twilight for solar forge level 2 and robo bay / fleet beacon for level 3. Swann, in contrast, requires only an Armory to unlock both drill levels (which is a total of 100 gas investment in buildings, given his factory costs no gas). In contrast, robo bay + fleet beacon is 300 gas.
I feel like the Karax + Swann combo is similar to the Artanis + Raynor combo in that the benefits that the protoss provides to the Terran (i.e., +15% production/mech healing and guardian shell, respectively) effectively renders the protoss redundant as the Terran becomes strong enough to practically solo all missions. All in all, not a very fun experience from the protoss side.
I do not agree that forge quick expo is the only way to open - I think it becomes a reasonable opener only after level 11 (instant pylons/cannons) and, even then, gas first into gate into expo is still doable.
Regarding Karax's static d - I can see how it's possible to make it work with good minimap awareness (for orbital strikes on lings/marines/zealots) and well placed energizers. But I think we are kidding ourselves if we say he has good static d given that it's only effective as long as you orbital strike lings/marines/marauders/zealots and that it requires gas for the infrastructure itself (monoliths, energizers). Swann static d, in contrast, requires gas for upgrades only - all turrets are still minerals only. And this doesn't even take into consideration the following: Swann can salvage for 100%, his turrets give him AoE vs. ground and air and he doesn't need to invest in pylons in order to be able to place turrets.
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On December 19 2015 02:18 Beo[LMU] wrote:
AMonkeyCourier - That other guy was me. At least put in a little bit of effort and find out who said what. I feel you also don't like my solution and try to discredit it, just because of your feelings instead of rebutting it on actual points of game play.
Bottle summed up my grievances with carriers nicely. By teching carriers, you're forgoing the use of Karax's greatest strength by far. Laser spamming from minute 1 is enough to carry any horrible ally, as well as augment a good ally by sniping out anything that could pose them a threat while they're solo pushing. The expensive core upgrades are key to that. By teching to carriers, what are you achieving? An unkillable deathball? Well colossus + zealot achieves that too with correct usage of lasers for anti air and allows for a far safer earlygame and a faster ramp up time.
On December 19 2015 03:19 iceman12 wrote:
Regarding Karax's static d - I can see how it's possible to make it work with good minimap awareness (for orbital strikes on lings/marines/zealots) and well placed energizers. But I think we are kidding ourselves if we say he has good static d given that it's only effective as long as you orbital strike lings/marines/marauders/zealots and that it requires gas for the infrastructure itself (monoliths, energizers). Swann static d, in contrast, requires gas for upgrades only - all turrets are still minerals only. And this doesn't even take into consideration the following: Swann can salvage for 100%, his turrets give him AoE vs. ground and air and he doesn't need to invest in pylons in order to be able to place turrets.
Absolutely correct, though I feel it unfair to evaluate them outside the context of Karax's other tools. For one, statics are his best counter to mass air (shuttles + temple) and sniping fodder units to leverage his statics' single target focus is a perfectly legitimate way of multiplying their value since going heavy static doesn't preclude the core upgrades. Either way, people are still giving them way too much credit in comparison to unit comps.
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On December 19 2015 04:46 AMonkeyCourier wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 02:18 Beo[LMU] wrote:
AMonkeyCourier - That other guy was me. At least put in a little bit of effort and find out who said what. I feel you also don't like my solution and try to discredit it, just because of your feelings instead of rebutting it on actual points of game play. Bottle summed up my grievances with carriers nicely. By teching carriers, you're forgoing the use of Karax's greatest strength by far. Laser spamming from minute 1 is enough to carry any horrible ally, as well as augment a good ally by sniping out anything that could pose them a threat while they're solo pushing. The expensive core upgrades are key to that. By teching to carriers, what are you achieving? An unkillable deathball? Well colossus + zealot achieves that too with correct usage of lasers for anti air and allows for a far safer earlygame and a faster ramp up time. Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 03:19 iceman12 wrote:
Regarding Karax's static d - I can see how it's possible to make it work with good minimap awareness (for orbital strikes on lings/marines/zealots) and well placed energizers. But I think we are kidding ourselves if we say he has good static d given that it's only effective as long as you orbital strike lings/marines/marauders/zealots and that it requires gas for the infrastructure itself (monoliths, energizers). Swann static d, in contrast, requires gas for upgrades only - all turrets are still minerals only. And this doesn't even take into consideration the following: Swann can salvage for 100%, his turrets give him AoE vs. ground and air and he doesn't need to invest in pylons in order to be able to place turrets. Absolutely correct, though I feel it unfair to evaluate them outside the context of Karax's other tools. For one, statics are his best counter to mass air (shuttles + temple) and sniping fodder units to leverage his statics' single target focus is a perfectly legitimate way of multiplying their value since going heavy static doesn't preclude the core upgrades. Either way, people are still giving them way too much credit in comparison to unit comps.
You convinced me to play around further with Karax's cannons/batteries/monoliths and I can now see the light =). I used a similar simcity as what got me the mastery achievement in Last Stand (i.e., shield batteries in front, then cannons, then monoliths, while having small gaps to exploit AI pathing and to allow access to void thrashers) - combined with energizers (which I didn't have during that mission in the campaign) - and I was blown away by how effective the setup was against stuff that Swann's turrets aren't great against - namely, siege tanks, immortals and the biggest hybrids.
It seems that Karax's defense setup is effective against all races (assuming orbital strikes, ofc) in contrast to Swann, who is hyper-effective against Zerg but whose performance falls of quickly against Terran and Protoss (once immortals come out in decent numbers) waves. Also, both styles involve a certain amount of "micro" (i.e., neither is purely a 'set-and-forget' style): Swann's defense requires you to rebuild 1+ turret after each wave in the mid-game onward (except against zerg) whereas Karax's defense requires you to snipe certain groups of units before they get to your base.
It is pretty hilarious cannon rushing the various objectives on Rifts to Korhal and Void Thrasher. It is particularly effective with a Kerrigan ally who is mindful of spreading creep as far as possible. (Fun fact: if you build a single monolith such that the pirate ship is within range, you can do so with just one minute left on the bonus timer and still take it down comfortably.)
Regarding carriers: I think that a Karax playstyle that involves teching to Carriers is similar to a Raynor playstyle that involves (opening with rax units and then) teching to Battle Cruisers or a Kerrigan playstyle that involves teching to Brood Lords (w/ Queen support). It's a hell of a lot of fun, but, at the end of the day, you could have accomplished the same far more quickly going a different - albeit more multitask intensive - route. Even on the Shuttles map, I think the best unit-based strat (i.e., distinguishing from tower defense strats) is mass mirage w/ a mineral dump of reviving sentinels w/ charge to serve as a meat shield for your ally). Given that mobility is of the essence on this map - since sh*t can get out of hand quickly in the last wave (esp. against Terran AI) - I think Carriers are sub-optimal (unless you're with an ally who can hold his own, in which case, you probably could have gotten by on the spear of adun alone).
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So I started playing Kerrigan. I got her up to level 13, and I still haven't figured her out. I know that some people think that Zagara is weak and she's pretty strong (or at least that's the impression I got from the OP), but I find it ridiculously the opposite. I've tried quite a few compositions with her. including ling muta, ling brood lord, lurker ling, mass hydra, hydra ling, hydra lurker ling. I always put my best effort to spread the creep all over the map, and at least where I'm fighting. Sometimes I can get a strong critical mass, but that requires a competent ally. Most of the time I keep getting slaughtered early on, and have a very hard time building my army up. Maybe I just haven't found the right strategy yet.
I do appreciate that her jumping lings can break rocks a lot faster than Zagara's lings. Though I still don't get to expand as fast, since Zagara can have her lings out much faster, and it barely breaks her bank (whereas having fast lings out for Kerrigan severely cripples her early economy).
The thing about Zagara is that she just has explosive damage that can kill every wave any time. She can always rip up first waves with banelings, and from then on fully upgraded banes and scourge can just demolish anything that comes your way, with the ridiculous lings to sweep up the rest. And she builds up her army so much faster. While other heroes are trying to build up their critical mass, and are busy getting upgrades and such with only 2 or 3 troops on the map, Zagara has half her supply filled, and is ripping through everything. I know people think she's weak late game, but I don't feel that way at all. Her banes still rip up end-game waves, and her trillion larva just keep her army full all the time. Kerrigan, by contrast, has a hard time renewing her expensive army (you can be screwed if you lose it mid-game), and doesn't have any form of explosive damage that's even remotely comparable to the banes and scourge. (Maybe lurkers, but they are a hell of a lot more expensive and harder to replace.)
Maybe I just haven't figured her out yet. Or maybe ultras are the key. (13 and 14 are the ultra upgrades, I haven't played at 13 yet.) But I find, with Kerrigan, that if I have a bad ally I'm pretty screwed, whereas with Zagara I will dominate any map no matter who's my ally. Same goes for Swann and Vorazun. As it is now, Kerrigan is by far the weakest hero I have tried playing. (Still haven't played Raynor or Artanis.)
I did see BL/Queen suggested earlier this thread, and I haven't tried that, so maybe I will. Though it's hard not to ultimately have upgraded lings in your composition, since they're so strong.
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In my experience playing Kerrigan you really just want to upgrade Kerrigan ASAP and build up your army while she handles early waves. Heroic Fortitude, Chain Reaction, and Ability Efficiency change Kerrigan from an OK hero into a powerhouse that can take out almost any ground wave. Your units are just there to back her up most of the time. Lings are probably going to be your biggest army component (20 DPS each when fully upgraded, they're great), but you'll have enough gas to pick one other unit to upgrade and use.
Hydras have good DPS, but are very squishy. Should probably mix in Queens but even then you'll have a hard time staying alive.
Mutas take extreme amounts of gas but are great in critical masses. If you want to fully upgrade them it takes like 1500+ gas, not really recommended unless you have Swann as a partner.
Ultras are very solid and dependable, they'll just stick around forever once you get Torrasques. Great for meatshielding lings (or hydras if you can spare the gas).
Lurkers are great on defense maps. Generally they need a bit of a critical mass to be effective, but it's a very low critical point. 4-8 for Zerg-Protoss will do. They are also very survivable, outranging and killing most things that would kill them.
Brood Lords are OK, haven't used them much at all because they take so long to get to and are so gas-heavy. Once you get their speed upgrade they become hilarious to use though. 3 speed brood lords are the best.
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On December 21 2015 13:43 Xsyq wrote:
In my experience playing Kerrigan you really just want to upgrade Kerrigan ASAP and build up your army while she handles early waves. Heroic Fortitude, Chain Reaction, and Ability Efficiency change Kerrigan from an OK hero into a powerhouse that can take out almost any ground wave. Your units are just there to back her up most of the time. Lings are probably going to be your biggest army component (20 DPS each when fully upgraded, they're great), but you'll have enough gas to pick one other unit to upgrade and use.
Hydras have good DPS, but are very squishy. Should probably mix in Queens but even then you'll have a hard time staying alive.
Mutas take extreme amounts of gas but are great in critical masses. If you want to fully upgrade them it takes like 1500+ gas, not really recommended unless you have Swann as a partner.
Ultras are very solid and dependable, they'll just stick around forever once you get Torrasques. Great for meatshielding lings (or hydras if you can spare the gas).
Lurkers are great on defense maps. Generally they need a bit of a critical mass to be effective, but it's a very low critical point. 4-8 for Zerg-Protoss will do. They are also very survivable, outranging and killing most things that would kill them.
Brood Lords are OK, haven't used them much at all because they take so long to get to and are so gas-heavy. Once you get their speed upgrade they become hilarious to use though. 3 speed brood lords are the best.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Most of the time I've gotten lings + one gas unit, but usually it's hydras, and like you said, they melt pretty quickly. But I'm starting to realize that just adding a lot of queens to your army is good enough for AA, and leaves you gas for something else (plus it really helps with the creep spread).
Quick question though, what's the go-to way to take care of a first wave solo, with Kerrigan? For every other hero I played, there's a way to do this, which I have had to do many times given my ally. Zagara has the banelings which rip up every first wave, Swann has the fire turrets, Vorazun has the shadow guard, and Karax has his orbital strike. But with Kerrigan, I have lost games simply from first waves, where my ally did nothing. I find being able to take on a first wave solo is paramount since it happens very often that you get an ally that doesn't contribute anything to it. I can't think of a way to do it that doesn't cripple my early game economy (like making 3 spines and/or 20 lings).
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Unfortunately you do need to just bite the bullet and make some units for the first wave. I usually have at least one queen and ~10 lings for knocking down the rocks, which is enough to take care of my half of the first wave pretty easily. Thankfully Kerrigan comes out for the second wave with Assimilation Aura ready and Psionic Dash, so you should be able to afford a lot of drones even if you got hosed on the first wave.
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How do you all find the new improved brutal? It's indeed a bit harder, especially in the first minutes.. nothing impossible, but I've found that with the new patch I NEED to have a decent ally, or at least someone who doesn't screw up the first calldowns (the second and third wave can be deadly if you only have units). Temple defense in particular has been a slaughterhouse more often than not!
And I stress that I used to have a almost 100% win rate at brutal before the latest patch!
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It definitely caught me off guard when the workers were flying compared to their slow pace before. I still think the patrol location and timing could have a small but of randomness to it, and not even marking them on the map, or possibly even announcing it, on Brutal. You just always have to be ready.
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On December 21 2015 21:22 DrSeRRoD wrote:
It definitely caught me off guard when the workers were flying compared to their slow pace before. I still think the patrol location and timing could have a small but of randomness to it, and not even marking them on the map, or possibly even announcing it, on Brutal. You just always have to be ready.
Would be the same as it is now. We wait for a wave, then push. Come back after clearing an objective and repeat.
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When the wave suddenly appears at an expo instead of the main because it wasn't marked on the map, at least it would be a little bit different. The next time you play that map, it hits the other expo instead while also a small force attacks the main. Another game, it may not come at all, but the one after is twice as strong. Adding a small randomness to them wouldn't be the same at all. It may not change the difficulty significantly, but it would feel at least a little be refreshing to not know the exact time and location of every single enemy each game (especially after hundreds of games on the same small map pool).
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On December 21 2015 14:47 The Bottle wrote:
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Most of the time I've gotten lings + one gas unit, but usually it's hydras, and like you said, they melt pretty quickly. But I'm starting to realize that just adding a lot of queens to your army is good enough for AA, and leaves you gas for something else (plus it really helps with the creep spread).
Quick question though, what's the go-to way to take care of a first wave solo, with Kerrigan? For every other hero I played, there's a way to do this, which I have had to do many times given my ally. Zagara has the banelings which rip up every first wave, Swann has the fire turrets, Vorazun has the shadow guard, and Karax has his orbital strike. But with Kerrigan, I have lost games simply from first waves, where my ally did nothing. I find being able to take on a first wave solo is paramount since it happens very often that you get an ally that doesn't contribute anything to it. I can't think of a way to do it that doesn't cripple my early game economy (like making 3 spines and/or 20 lings).
14 overlord 14 pool, 3 drones, pool finishes, 1 queen + 6 lings, 21 overlord, 2 more lings, 2nd queen, use the 8 lings to kill rock and expand, then 2 spines, take gases and all drones after. You should have expo put down and 2 spines finished before first wave arrives. Let the two queens tank damage first, move them back behind spines when they are red, then let the spines tank damage, unroot one if it's about to die, it will lose aggro and survive, lings do the damage. You should keep both queens and spines alive, lose some lings is fine. After first wave move 1 spine to cover main ramp, the other one to cover your natural. Not quite as good as free energy/cool down based defense, but you need the 8 lings to kill rock and you need the queens for inject and tumor, so you only spend 200 extra minerals on spines, which isn't that bad + you can re-position the spines for future defense, and they heal fast on Kerrigan's Malignant creep.
You are just gonna have to accept that Zagara has better early game...
For gas management the key is 1. keep your gas units alive, 2. don't make too many hydras. The maps that have heavy air waves are all defense maps, spore crawlers are excellent on defense maps since enemies come to you. Shuttle map for example, the first shuttle wave can be dealt with 5 spore crawlers while your Kerrigan deal with the ground army. Should be easy to spread creep to cover the conduits in time since your tumors are OP, you can even re-position the spore crawlers for the few early shuttle waves. Offense maps I get 2 queens early to help vs air/ heal Kerrigan/ spread creep, don't like too many queens since their dps is shitty.
Army wise I always rush straight to 8 lurkers, as long as you keep lurkers covered with Kerrigan and lings they will never die, and 8 lurkers will melt enemy ground waves. I dislike making hdyras early since they are fragile and do not have AOE damage, making you weaker on the ground, and if you have to replace lost hdyras it really drains your gas bank, slowing everything down. I make 16 hydras after I get my 8 lurkers out for anti air (remember to mass spores on air heavy defense maps). As long as hydras stay behind lurkers, and lurkers behind Kerrigan and lings, your shouldn't lose many gas units all game, so you can use the extra gas for upgrades. 3 evolution chambers upgrade Kerrigan + range attack + carapace, melee attack when you have no Kerrigan upgrade available. Tech to Ultras fast to protect your lurkers and hydras, (BL cost too much gas to rush for, but you can add a few BL later after you got your ultra/lurker/hydra/ling army, they provide even more protection for your lurkers and hydras and also make you feel good).
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Zagara is so weak.
Vorazun is so OP
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On December 21 2015 14:47 The Bottle wrote:Quick question though, what's the go-to way to take care of a first wave solo, with Kerrigan? Personally I always asked an ally to deal with the first attack. It's only fair because Kerrigan alone can deal with several waves after that. It's possible to deal with it alone, but not worth it.
I usually went 6ish lings for rocks, expand, triple evo and tech to whatever I wanted (ultras or broodlords) while Kerrigan hold off. Queens are good because hydras are bad and you save gass. Creep spread is good. Nydus worm is good for transporting queens, which honestly should have the same speed off creep as campaign queens.
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Artanis is one of the stronger commanders now that his zealots got buffed to regular damage. It's possible to go for a no-goon build without rushing for whirlwind.
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Just got to lvl 15 with all the commanders, heres how i rate all of them. Obviously your mileage varies depending on your skill level, map and partner, but heres a general rating i give to each commander on their abilities to handle various situation throughout the game for the average player. My overall conclusion is that everyone is damned strong and can handle pretty much most situations, played well even Zagara can hold her own late game. So these ratings are only relative to each other.
Raynor:
Early: Strong
Mid: Medium
Late: Strong
Notes: best economy in the game, staggering your ability cool downs turn maps into no rush 10.
Kerrigan:
Early: Weak
Mid: Strong
Late: Medium-strong
Notes: weak until Kerrigan comes out, Kerrigan can solo waves mid game, could be stronger late game but gas starved
Artanis:
Early: Medium-weak
Mid: Medium
Late: Strong
Notes: strong passive, okay early game due to buff to zealots and well placed orbital shots
Swann:
Early: Strong
Mid: Weak
Late: Strong
Notes: Strong early due to strong static defense, strong late as you build up an unstoppable mech deathball. Wish abilities were accessible faster
Zagara:
Early: Strong
Mid: Medium-strong
Late: Medium-weak
Notes: aoe scourge best anti-air in game, makes shuttle mission easy
Vorazun:
Early: LOL
Mid: Strong
Late: LOL
Notes: LOL
Karax:
Early: Medium-strong
Mid: Medium
Late: Strong
Notes: good passive, strong abilities, strength heavily dependent on your aim with the orbital shots (e.g. having a spotter and shooting while they're still clumped vs shooting after they formed a conclave already).
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I have no idea why people keep saying that Zagara is weak. I would rate her as the 2nd best to Vorazun. With Zagara, I go for 14pool/13gas so that I can get speed + a queen + fast baneling nest and get my banelings out in time to defend first/second wave. With Zagara, I can just be extremely reckless with my army because I could just remake it quickly. But then again you need decent injects I guess.
Unrelated note: The fast warpin trick really really makes Artanis' warpin achievement so much easier
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On December 25 2015 15:18 Highways wrote:
Zagara is so weak.
Used to think the same.
But I totally changed my opinion. Zagara is really good and fun to play. I like the way how she play out.
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On December 27 2015 20:38 50ShadesOfSenpai wrote:
Unrelated note: The fast warpin trick really really makes Artanis' warpin achievement so much easier
Explain?
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EPT
