EPTIs he broken? No, is he good? yes.
Fezvez's' Co-op guide and hero review - Page 9
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Tankz123
Denmark228 Posts
Is he broken? No, is he good? yes. | ||
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Xsyq
143 Posts
Only thing I've really found Karax to be stellar at is defense once you get to level 11. Cannon/Battery/Monolith is really good at holding the line. Much easier to set up than Swann's turret/tank but not quite as good. People are all talking about how good Chrono is but the only use I've found for it is saturating your natural quick and boosting upgrades out. Good macro renders the unit-production side of it mostly irrelevant. Overall, he's decent, but I don't really want to play a hero that turns the game into whack-a-mole all the time. | ||
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DrSeRRoD
United States490 Posts
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
On December 17 2015 19:40 Beo[LMU] wrote: Colossi alone just don't cut it. I tried it out and although you may firstly end up with bigger armies supply-wise they also die too quickly. This is your problem. nobody ever said to just build colossi. The zealot meatshield is NOT optional. You guys keep trying to turret rush like a bunch of clowns. The rest of us will be here, being actually useful and economial in pushes. The fact that people are actually trying to compare turret rushing to the tried and tested brutal soloing comp of zealot colossi is mind boggling. Have you guys even tried these things out on brutal? | ||
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Beo[LMU]
4 Posts
This is your problem. nobody ever said to just build colossi. The zealot meatshield is NOT optional. You guys keep trying to turret rush like a bunch of clowns. The rest of us will be here, being actually useful and economial in pushes. The fact that people are actually trying to compare turret rushing to the tried and tested brutal soloing comp of zealot colossi is mind boggling. Have you guys even tried these things out on brutal? You misunderstood my point! Of course I would never rush out Colossi without a meat shield of some kind (either mine or my ally's) LOL. The point was that his only special ground unit is the Colussus, which should in theory enable him to have a certain style of play. However Colussus does not do this to a great extent. Colussus is very expensive, not even that durable, and that accounts for a meat shield without which it could not do anything, of course. After play testing I have come to the conclusion that Carriers are better value for money providing guaranteed value. Of course we play on brutal, otherwise it would make no sense to write suggestions ... The "turret rushing" as you call it is a well tested means itself (cf. WC3 humans/orcs or SC2 multiplayer) and is highly effective and feared for that. It's new in Coop, though. Given the insta-warp of Karax from level 11 up, Sentinels just pale in comparison. Using defenses offensively also utilize his strengths most effectively. Other from him being a great support character. Good luck! | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
Co-op is about sustained efficiency. You don't gain incremental advantages by pulling off a successful turret rush on the AI's first location and you certainly can't magically win the game by pulling an all-in on the enemy's main while they only have 2 bases in co-op. Comparing co-op turret rushing to multiplayer is just all kinds of nonsensical. | ||
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The Bottle
242 Posts
Every other map demands static D from Karax IMO. In the train map, your static D + energizers will be much more efficient than any army you build. Same with the temple map. On the shuttle map carriers are good, but you just can't have enough to cover the first few waves, so static D is your best bet there (or depending on your ally, which usually doesn't work out well). And on the celestial lock map, well, Karax doesn't have enough mobility to keep them defended, so nothing works better than to turtle up each lock. The shield batteries are great for keeping your structures alive while you blast the attackers with orbitals. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
I should make it clear that I'm not condemning the use of statics at all. I just don't see them as a defining feature of Karax's strengths. | ||
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Xsyq
143 Posts
A unit deathball is always going to be more efficient than 3 clumps of statics. That's not necessarily true with Karax though. His more expensive units require more investment to reach the same power as those clumps of static defense. And it's not like you have to make a choice between the two. You can throw down tons of cannons and still go 2gate carrier. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
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Suchbalancemuchwow
76 Posts
The only reason you'd actually go air with karax is if your too lazy too upgrade spear of adun to max lvl and bombard all air. Not to mention the only map where you actually need a lot of anti air is better solved by just making static D(shuttle) In sum, carriers work, if you're content with being slow as fuck. (also they fail hilariously bad at killing the pirate ship) | ||
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Xsyq
143 Posts
Karax's strongest option would probably be mass immortal with shadow cannon to burst down strong enemy units (Orbital Strike gets the swarms) with either mass cannon or sentinel as a mineral dump. Add in a couple Colossi with upgrades and a few energizers if you want to get fancy. You'll always want to get a forge fast for expos, then the main problem is how to spend your gas. I prioritize gas like so: Solar upgrades first, get all three solar efficiencies ASAP and orbital stun when possible (extra healing beam and Solar Lance upgrade aren't really necessary imo). Warp gate. Couple energizers (don't need a lot, chrono-whateveritscalled is only 3 energy). Twilight Council for second solar core upgrade, get reconstruction if dumping into sentinels, otherwise energy regen if going cannons (or reclaimation). If a defense map (temple, train): Upgrade all the defensive structure boosts at forge (first structure shield, then +2 range, then +25% attack), get started on shield upgrades afterward. Throw down stargate, begin production of mirages or carriers, upgrade air attack. Start researching orbital stun, build fleet beacon for upgrades (and solar efficiency three). Upgrade chosen air unit and throw down another stargate after starting solar efficiency three. Pump units out of two gates, maintain shield/weapon upgrades. If aggressive map: Get another forge and go +weapon +armor. Robo facility, get some observers to put into stationary mode for orbital strike sight (need to be careful with terran enemies because Ravens just seeker them on sight), start massing immortals. Research orbital stun and throw down a robo bay for upgrades (and solar efficiency three). Build another robo, make more immortals. Get shadow cannon, observer speed. Add on a couple colossi and get fire lance and range when you can. I can generally make it to 200/200 on most aggressive maps with mass Sentinels, lots of Immortals, a couple Colossi, and a few Energizers. Defensive maps I'm lucky to hit 80 supply with Carriers. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
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iceman12
10 Posts
When I hover my mouse over a "stimmed" cannon's unit stats, I don't see a reduction in the weapon cooldown. However, I do see a reduction in weapon cooldown for stimmed units (both mine and my ally's). Btw, for those who do claim to be able to make pure static d work - how on earth do you hold off the early waves of lings/zealots without some kind of AoE turret (like Swann's perdition turret which is frankly broken beyond belief against zerglings)? P.S. I like the new level ("Lock Out") - it's a nice change of scene and is a bit more taxing on the multitask / minimap awareness than the others (though the enemy spawn frequency does become apparent after 2-3 games). The level has the hilarious side-effect of exposing those who are overly reliant on the all army hotkey (F2 in standard), e.g., when they try to leave 1 unit to claim/reclaim a lock whilst keeping army active (and reinforcing) elsewhere on the map. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
On December 18 2015 11:30 iceman12 wrote: Btw, for those who do claim to be able to make pure static d work - how on earth do you hold off the early waves of lings/zealots without some kind of AoE turret (like Swann's perdition turret which is frankly broken beyond belief against zerglings)? Orbital strike. 1 hit for lings and marines. 2 for hydras, roaches, marauders, stalkers, medics and firebats. 3 for zealots. Upgrade to max ASAP. | ||
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iceman12
10 Posts
Just an observation that I thought others might find interesting as well. Note: this is primarily relevant for Karax (especially prior to level 11, when you get the instant cannons/pylons) and possibly for Artanis. There isn't much of a need to do this (even as Karax) if your ally is a Zerg, because 8-10 lings knock down the rocks quite quickly. It's clearly not relevant for the Zerg commanders (given that its easy to have sufficient lings to be able to DPS down the rocks quickly and the need for a 3rd hatch for larvae) or the Terran commanders (given you can just float it into place later). Imba-razun's DT calldown is available early enough and knocks down rocks quickly enough that you can get a reasonably timed Nexus anyways. The primary downside (but possibly an upside, depending on how you look at it) is that it can look like you have no idea what you're doing. I tried it in ~15-20 games today, and two people left early on because of it (they pinged my Nexus on the minimap frantically, then typed something along the lines of "wtf" and then left the game). | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On December 18 2015 12:52 iceman12 wrote: Also, I did some testing today, and it turns out that if you build a Nexus next to the rocks, it takes ~5-6 more workers on minerals (depending on # of patches) and 2 extra workers on gas (1 extra worker in each gas or 2 extra workers in the far gas, depending on configuration) to reach the same income as you'd get from an optimally placed Nexus. Just an observation that I thought others might find interesting as well. Note: this is primarily relevant for Karax (especially prior to level 11, when you get the instant cannons/pylons) and possibly for Artanis. There isn't much of a need to do this (even as Karax) if your ally is a Zerg, because 8-10 lings knock down the rocks quite quickly. It's clearly not relevant for the Zerg commanders (given that its easy to have sufficient lings to be able to DPS down the rocks quickly and the need for a 3rd hatch for larvae) or the Terran commanders (given you can just float it into place later). Imba-razun's DT calldown is available early enough and knocks down rocks quickly enough that you can get a reasonably timed Nexus anyways. The primary downside (but possibly an upside, depending on how you look at it) is that it can look like you have no idea what you're doing. I tried it in ~15-20 games today, and two people left early on because of it (they pinged my Nexus on the minimap frantically, then typed something along the lines of "wtf" and then left the game). The leaving thing isn't exclusive to doing something like cannoning the rocks. I've also had allies leave me when I was first learning Karax because I bought all the units I could, not realising how important it was to just leave them in base and fight with energy until I had a bunch of stuff massed up (low levels your stuff is no better than standard protoss, and costs 50% more @_@) It's definitely a struggle to be aggressive early on with Karax, more so than even Swann, who can at least send out early goliaths+hellbats with laser backup. | ||
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AMonkeyCourier
21 Posts
They just seriously didn't think through the low level Karax experience. Cost increases to gateway units should be tied to unlocking their relevant upgrades. | ||
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Beo[LMU]
4 Posts
Nevermind actually, it's the other guy that was trying to hype carriers. Your usage of them is pretty much the same as mine; a unit to build when units are inconsequential. AMonkeyCourier - That other guy was me. At least put in a little bit of effort and find out who said what. I feel you also don't like my solution and try to discredit it, just because of your feelings instead of rebutting it on actual points of game play. Not willing to push it further, I want to meet common ground here: 1. We all agree that the only way to open as Karax is with Forge quick expo 2. We all agree that Karax has strong static defense, while its usage can differ. 3. We disagree about Karax' best unit combo. Overall there seem to be two broad trends (options) in unit-compositions and some valuable strategies about upgrades: (i) go Air (mass Carrier, sometimes Phoenix) + Statics (defensive & offensive) (ii) go Robo (Immortal/Colossi/Observer) + Sentinel (iii) 1. A lot of people like to go for solarite level III (I am more frugal in its use, so I do not believe it essential); 2. Energizers are very useful for both strategies, either more defensively (buffing statics) or by supporting a ground army. Of course - the bigger the armies, the better they get. I think the more experience one has with playing Karax and the better your ally, the better this unit gets. 3. Some have argued for the stun upgrade of orbital strike. I used to underestimate it, but I like it quite a lot now, since it allows you to aim more precisely after a successful hit, as you do not need to account for movement anymore. I also believe that while I personally have had great success with Carriers, others may struggle to replicate it (for reasons unknown), but I still think it's worthy to test things out and I can see a tendency that the more offensive maps may indeed offer better options for unit-heavy compositions. But in the end it all comes to down to different play styles and given good execution almost anything can work well. And indeed Carriers suck hard against Pirate! Total brain fart design-wise! I also agree that hey totally miscalculated his strengths on low levels as it was really awful to level him up on brutal early on. Only later on did things get fun with win ratios stabilizing at (very close to) 100% (with level 11+). (Maxed on 15 now). | ||
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The Bottle
242 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:18 Beo[LMU] wrote: AMonkeyCourier - That other guy was me. At least put in a little bit of effort and find out who said what. I feel you also don't like my solution and try to discredit it, just because of your feelings instead of rebutting it on actual points of game play. Not willing to push it further, I want to meet common ground here: 1. We all agree that the only way to open as Karax is with Forge quick expo 2. We all agree that Karax has strong static defense, while its usage can differ. 3. We disagree about Karax' best unit combo. Overall there seem to be two broad trends (options) in unit-compositions and some valuable strategies about upgrades: (i) go Air (mass Carrier, sometimes Phoenix) + Statics (defensive & offensive) (ii) go Robo (Immortal/Colossi/Observer) + Sentinel (iii) 1. A lot of people like to go for solarite level III (I am more frugal in its use, so I do not believe it essential); 2. Energizers are very useful for both strategies, either more defensively (buffing statics) or by supporting a ground army. Of course - the bigger the armies, the better they get. I think the more experience one has with playing Karax and the better your ally, the better this unit gets. 3. Some have argued for the stun upgrade of orbital strike. I used to underestimate it, but I like it quite a lot now, since it allows you to aim more precisely after a successful hit, as you do not need to account for movement anymore. I also believe that while I personally have had great success with Carriers, others may struggle to replicate it (for reasons unknown), but I still think it's worthy to test things out and I can see a tendency that the more offensive maps may indeed offer better options for unit-heavy compositions. But in the end it all comes to down to different play styles and given good execution almost anything can work well. And indeed Carriers suck hard against Pirate! Total brain fart design-wise! I also agree that hey totally miscalculated his strengths on low levels as it was really awful to level him up on brutal early on. Only later on did things get fun with win ratios stabilizing at (very close to) 100% (with level 11+). (Maxed on 15 now). My biggest problem with carriers is that you have to rely on having a good ally in order to do that. Teching to carriers quickly means that you have to skimp on the energy upgrades. If you have a bad ally, that means you'll be left hanging with nothing to defend early on, and your bases will just get overrun. Like I said before, the only map in which I get carriers is the shuttle map, because that's they're the only units that seem to be able to handle the massive air waves, but even then, I don't get them until way later; first I turtle up the conduits well enough so that my static D + orbital strikes can hold everything. I wouldn't call the pirate ship a design mistake. You just have to acknowledge that some units are good for it, and some aren't. If a bonus objective hard counters something you like to make, that's not a design mistake, it's just a circumstance where you have to alter your strategy. On the void shard mission I like to get a ton of phoenixes. You can have a critical mass of them much quicker, they're amazing units anyway with the level 13 dodge ability, and they're great against the pirate ships. I even like making them on other maps. As for the low level problem, I think one of the main changes they should make for him is to give him the instant static defense passive at level 3 or so. The instant defense seems to be part of the core of the character, so it should be the way people learn to play with him early on in my opinion. Also maybe let him have the forge defensive upgrades immediately, at level 1. | ||
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