No TL;DR- If you are interested, please read all of it. They deserve that. And I deserve that translating this 7 page long (word document) interview. T-T I feel this has been all the Boxer Yellow interviews + @
BoxeR, YellOw, their rivalry and E-Sports
All athletes have one goal- to be the best. They compete with others who share the same dream and call them ‘rivals.’ In soccer, there are Ronaldo and Messi. In basketball, there are Kobe Bryant and Lebron James. Nadal- Federer represent tennis as one of the fiercest rivals. E-Sports also has a rivalry so famed that even my mother knows of it. It is Emperor of Terran, SlayerS_BoxeR and Storm Zerg YellOw. While now, they are respectively called ‘Jessica’s husband’ and ‘broadcaster’, the former nicknames are more comfortable, especially for those who have been following the SC scene from its early days. It might be a hard concept for teens who grew up with LoL as the primary E-Sport, but imagine that there were two Fakers. Their competitiveness has been a big thing, even after retirement. Many game events and advertisements continue to use their rivalry gimmick. And the two Brood War legends have appeared on the Anaheim stage at Blizzcon 2015.
LOTV Showcased by the Legends, and the First meeting
Q. It’s really been a while and that makes it even better. How did you feel after playing LOTV?
YellOw: I haven’t been able to practice it a lot. I am really happy about the return of the Lurker. I think the game has become better tenfold with the additions of these units. To be honest, LOTV was about what I expected when they first said SC2 was coming out. It’s a pity that it wasn’t like this back in 2010, but I think you can really expect things from LOTV. BoxeR: A lot of new units have been added. It’s like a Starcraft mall (laughs). With the new units and their abilities, I think there are many new strategies to try out. And there is the new archon mode that made me feel nostalgic. Back in SC1 days, we used to play in team melee mode against strong players for practice. Personally, making an Archon mode tournament seems nice, and a 1v2 match with the Starleague winner against the Archon mode winners seem like it would be fun to watch as well.
Q. How were the younger days of the Emperor and Storm? Were there any signs of the competitive spirit?
YellOw: I’ve always been a competitive person. Before Starcraft, there were a lot of arcades that I went to. I remember the owners hated me because I beat entire games using only a few coins. I’m the type of guy that doesn’t stop until the ending credits roll. BoxeR: I wasn’t good at many things, but I found myself fiercely competitive in things I loved. I spent countless hours, even entire nights, finding ways to carve the perfect build for victory.
Q. You two met at an age where the word ‘Progamer’ was still new for many. How did it feel the first time you saw each other? BoxeR: Back in 2000, there was this server called ‘GameI’ where all the gosus would play at. We had a weekly tournament and I naturally got to know YellOw there. YellOw: I didn’t think of him as a rival back then. It was a time where many top class players met each other, and we only knew each other through the grapevine(laughs).
Back when watching games played on TV was an abnormality, a friend urged the reporter, a young BoxeR fan at the time, to see the ‘Coca Cola sponsored OnGameNet Starleague Finals- BoxeR vs YellOw’ together. While I was a fan of BoxeR’s stylish play style, it was my first time seeing his game played out right in front of me and I was very excited. My friend told me that the player opposing my hero was the up and coming Zerg, YellOw. The gymnasium was filled with people, and middle school me was surprised by the amount of fans that were filled with passion for just a game.
Q. I think the actual start of the rivalry was back in the Coca Cola Starleague. YellOw: Before then, BoxeR was called the God of Terran and had incredible momentum on his back. BoxeR especially shined in his TvZ with his famed Marine- Medic micro, and I think the fans loved it when I actually put him on the ropes. I thought I could win against anybody back then, but when I actually lost, the guy called BoxeR seemed almost like an insurmountable wall. BoxeR: It doesn’t matter how two people view each other. If others don’t call them rivals, they never will be. There needs to be some backstory for a rivalry, and I think the start of it was the Coca Cola Starleague. After that, more and more fans were attracted to us and every game we played was just another chapter added.
Q. Do you guys know your head to head stats? YellOw: Not really. I just know that it’s actually really close.
Q. It’s 35 to 33, with BoxeR on top. However, people always seem to remember you as the loser. Don’t you think it’s kind of unfair? YellOw: Well, I did lose in a lot of important matches. In 2002 WCG, I went to the finals without dropping a match, then got 2:0ed by BoxeR and got second place. BoxeR: While YellOw didn’t drop a map, my road wasn’t as easy. I had many re-games and I almost didn’t make it, but I did and I won (laughs).
Now, About That Bunker Rush….
The rivalry between BoxeR and YellOw has been going on for over a decade. There are many stories to tell about these two, but many still remember Ever Starleague 2004, with the triple bunker rush. November 12, 2004, the two players met in the semis. People were stoked for their matches, the stadium was filled to the ceiling with people wanting to watch the event live, and the Starcraft1 community site was filled with posts about how they were waiting in front of the television after ordering chicken. But the result was a 3:0, with successive bunker rushes finishing the games in less than 30 minutes.
Q. Do you remember November 12, 2004? The fans were incredible hyped. BoxeR: I really want to apologize to them (laughs). I got over competitive and it resulted in a big disaster. And actually I had different builds for the 4th and 5th games, without a bunker rush. YellOw: I was really disheartened, but what really got me was the fact that I didn’t prepare at all for a cheese. It was a new thing at the time and BoxeR was always the type of player who prepared some strategic builds, so I focused only on that, and I ended up losing without being able to show anything. I really try not to blame anybody, but I was really mad and sad at BoxeR at the time.
Q. BoxeR was always first. 100 wins in Starleague, the hall of fame, the 100k yearly salary, etc. The funny part is that YellOw always came in right after that. YellOw: It was really frustrating. I also practiced hard, feared no one, and came back with good results. Even then, I was always deterred on the steps of victory. There was always BoxeR, and I gradually became fearful, like a trauma. My first goal as a progamer was victory in a world class championship, and BoxeR even took that away from me. He actually stopped me a lot of times (laughs).
Q. Time goes on, and new players come in. While you were rivals, did you guys actually cheer one another on sometimes? BoxeR: There is no denying the synergy between us. There is no better motivation for me than YellOw’s good performance. On the other hand, it’s really depressing when we’re both doing badly. YellOw: We cheer each other on through slumps. It’s not just BoxeR, its every veteran progamer. The victory of an oldbie leads to the confidence that I can do it as well, so I remembered we cheered each other up with jokes and stuff.
Q. (To BoxeR) I am curious why you played Starcraft 2. BoxeR: The SC1 market was diminishing slowly, and Starcraft 2 had just come out. I returned to SKT1 after military service, but I couldn’t keep up with the new players and the builds. I thought long and hard. I was worried that some fans might call me a traitor if I transitioned, but I ended up with the conclusion that I wanted to show more games to my fans during my time as a progamer.
Q. Both players have experience as the coaching staff. How were Coach Lim and Coach Hong like? BoxeR: I had two failures as the coach. Back in SlayerS, I was more of a playing coach and always tried to put the players before anything else. Even back in SKT1, I tried to think of the players more than whatever the front managers were telling me. I feel this attitude has resulted in more harm than good and I regret it. For the first generation of progamers, the situation was dismal. Because of the terrible experience as one of them, I wanted to have my players focused only on the game and nothing else. Now I realize that players who haven’t experienced hardship tend to have a weaker mentality and crumble quicker. YellOw: My generation of progamers had nothing, but we hung on with passion for the game. I’m not trying to be your typical racist grandma going ‘back in my day, we didn’t have-‘. I don’t know if it’s because of the lack of hardship, but the reality is that players who haven’t experienced this phase actually do tend to lose passion and resolution much more quickly. I think players who experienced going hungry tend to play harder because they don’t want to go back to those times. Players who don’t just settle on what they have because they don’t remember hard times.
Q. (to YellOw) June 20, 2009, the team is losing 2:0 with The Revolutionist Protoss Bisu as the opponent. The odds were stacked, but you showed the non believers with your first victory in 735 days. YellOw: Many people cheered me on and I was so grateful for my fans. It was the bottom of my slump. After going into Air force ACE as my military service, I had to admit my style of playing Zerg was losing its merit. I was practicing a more greedy style, but I always had one or two mistakes and lost. I was mad at myself. I never did well during practice and I also didn’t believe I could beat the strongest protoss in his favorite matchup. While people cheered for me, I knew that nobody really expected me to win, so I just said ‘heck, let’s do it’ and went back to my old style. I wanted to show them- while skill and physical is important in Starcraft, it can be overcome through experience. BoxeR: It’s a thought that I just had after listening to YellOw, but a lot of stylish players disappeared from the game scene with the introduction of optimized builds. If a player sets the meta, everyone follows him after looking at his replay. The problem with this is that the meta makes all the maps look alike and the games begin to look similar. I think it all started with the replay system. I think a ‘pro’ should have his or her own style and view of the game, and their styles should be the weapon, but everybody just follows a player when he painstakingly makes a new build after watching his replay. As this continues on, more players don’t care about making up new builds, but just focus on optimizing ones that already exist, down to the last second. I want to suggest to Blizzard that Replays should be more secluded on who gets to view them. Maybe just observers, or players on your friends list. I think the game would be much more enjoyable to watch if there was a personal twist for each progamer. YellOw: I agree with BoxeR. I think too much luxury ends up biting back in the end. While the general community needs replays to improve, I feel there has to be a bigger skill gap between the pros and amateurs for the fans to go crazy during big plays and amazing builds.
(Skipped question on The Genius, a Korean TV show where YellOw and BoxeR appear)
A Second Match Fixing Scandal, Advice from the Senior Gamers.
The life of a progamer isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. The shining spotlight is only made possible with the shadow created by hundreds of hours of practice. And only the top 1% get the publicity, glory, and riches. It is a cruel life. If you really want to get into it, the future is still murky after the short life as a progamer ends. This is a continuous problem, even for the top class progamers. Imagine the worries of the lower tier gamers. Shortly before, there has been a second match fixing scandal in Starcraft. While they were retired, I wanted to know how BoxeR and YellOw, the two prominent players since the beginning of the whole E-Sports scene, viewed the scandal, and the two definitely seemed to have a word of advice for gamers.
Q. Another match fixing scandal happened. BoxeR: (After long pause) if all players were granted the spotlight, the money, the fame the top 1% have right now, it would have never happened. However, this isn’t a realistic option. The team needs to take care of its players and the players also need to have pride in their profession. YellOw: It’s not just the players that need to change; it’s the scene in general. While the progaming scene has become exponentially better since the beginning, I still feel it needs to be worked on. Most players invest their whole youth into this job and there has to be some sort of treatment that respects that decision. It has been over 15 years since E-Sports began, and the game industry has come a long way for sure, but the futures of the young progamers are murky. This is one of the biggest reasons players are so gullible to match fixers. Especially if you are not up there with the 1%, the uncertainty leads to a criminal act that cannot be undone. If a player who just entered the progaming scene received a request to match fix, he or she would most likely refuse. The teams need to continuously help the player keep that mindset. BoxeR: It is important that the teams or KeSPA show a promising future and educate players continuously on what it truly means to have a pro mindset.
Q. You are the progamers who have played a big part in shaping the scene. Have you ever regretted going down this road? YellOw: I’m sure people differ on this but I need to do what I want no matter what happens. It doesn’t matter if I fail because I am just happy in the fact that I tried. So I don’t regret this either. However, if I had a child who wanted to be a progamer, I wouldn’t support his decision (laughs). I think that means the progaming scene has still a long way to go. BoxeR: As I said before, I focus intently on something I like. And I liked Starcraft. If I ever had regret during my progaming career I would never have made it. Like YellOw said, I also think the progaming career has more negatives than positives right now, but I believe this will also change later, when the teens today go into their 30s and 40s. I think time is on our side. The number of people who love games will only go up as years go by. While it is unstable now, the future is bright. YellOw: The E-Sports scene has come really far in just a short amount of time. Compared to other sports, E-Sports have grown abnormally quickly in the last years. However, I feel Korea’s E-Sports scene is in a bit of a depression as of now, even though Korea is the founder of E-Sports. Other countries started later, but E-Sports is still acknowledged as real sports by the government. BoxeR: There is never a 100%. If there is 90% positive and 10% negative, the negative issues will still be brought up like it is the only thing that exists. There is still a long way to go for the gaming industry.
Q. From its highest peak to its lowest trough, it seems you have experienced everything. Is there anything to say for the next generation? YellOw: The time is short. You get a little more older and soon enough, people start calling you as a washed up old man (laughs). As I grew older with the scene, I learned that you gotta keep on pressing hard each year, especially when you are in your good times. You should never stop and admire. When you perform well there will be more fans and people will treat you differently, but don’t rest, grit your teeth and continue the streak. Also, progamers are still a new thing for some people. For them, your every words and actions will be representing the entire scene, so be more responsible in your words and actions, especially in public and social networks. BoxeR: I wanted to stop progaming at times. The work is that hard. However, I asked myself a question. ‘If you take away gaming from BoxeR, what will be left of him?’ Not worth answering. That was all the motivation I need. All the motivation you should need.
Q. Lastly, a word for the rival- and your greatest companion. BoxeR: I don’t say it much, but I always cheer for you. We’re not progamers now, but once a rival, always a rival. We still meet at events like this, as well as commercials and shows, yeah? I think this is how we’re gonna live until we die. YellOw, let’s do our best to preserve Lim Jin Rok in our fans’ memories! YellOw: I’ve known BoxeR for over 10 years. I’ve been next to him for pretty much everything, I’ve even seen him marry! Gradually I found myself following him and cheering him for everything he did. Since he is my rival, I want him to be successful even outside of the game and that will make me happy. After all, if my rival falls, what becomes of me, of us? And since I always lost to BoxeR during my progaming career, I want to be more successful than him, at least in this second phase of our lives. And look at me, I think I am actually doing pretty good, right? (laughs). I wish BoxeR the best in his life as a poker player and hope he keeps in touch.
Do you have a rival that keeps you going? All during the interview I found myself wondering ‘who is my rival?’ I’m not trying to say find someone to compete with, fight and win. There are many people who try hard but end up asking themselves ‘what is wrong with me?’ ‘Why can’t I do it?’ This reporter is one of them. If you are one as well, try asking yourself if you have a rival. Rivals always stimulate you. Sometimes, they might be a pain, blocking your rise. You might be jealous, and wish you had never known him. Even so, when you overcome those thoughts and channel that energy into a driving force, it will result in your improvement. That is what it means to be a rival.
1. 2001 September 8th, Coca Cola OnGamenet Starleague Finals 5set. Neo Hall of Valhalla BoxeR, the best TvZ player at the time, and the first Zerg to put him on the ropes with the 2:2. This is where the nickname Storm Zerg came to be as the pair duked it out at Valhalla. 14years old, but still a good, classic game to watch.
2. 2001 September 8th, Coca Cola OnGamenet Starleague Finals 4set. Ragnarok Ragnarok was called the graveyard of Zerg, and YellOw decides to use the ultimate build- a sunken colony rush on the low ground. It was a new thing for a Zerg to pull out these strategic games, and while YellOw lost, the game was still his.
3. 2003 KTF Ever OnGamenet Proleague Playoff, KTF vs Dongyang Orions 1set. Gaema Gowon Still known as one of the best Lim Jin Roks in many sites. Witness BoxeR's incredible marine-medic micro that was the bane of many Zergs.
4. 2009-2010 Shinhan Bank Proleague 1 Round 2nd week, SKT1 vs Airforce ACE 1set. 용오름. While known for his early aggression, YellOw bends to the meta and uses 3 hatchery mutalisk into defilers, showing he still understands the current trend. BoxeR uses... nukes?!
5. Ever Starleague 2004 semifinals. games 1-3 Many fans couldn't wait to see the two legends play in a Bo5. The stadium broke the record with all the starcraft fans, but the games were 3:0 BoxeR, with 3 Bunker rushes in a row. Disappoint.
Wow, really nice translation. I feel you translated what the writer was trying to convey rather than literal translations that don't carry over into English. GJ!
Q. (to YellOw) June 20, 2009, the team is losing 2:0 with The Revolutionist Protoss Bisu as the opponent. The odds were stacked, but you showed the non believers with your first victory in 735 days. YellOw: Many people cheered me on and I was so grateful for my fans. It was the bottom of my slump. After going into Air force ACE as my military service, I had to admit my style of playing Zerg was losing its merit. I was practicing a more greedy style, but I always had one or two mistakes and lost. I was mad at myself. I never did well during practice and I also didn’t believe I could beat the strongest protoss in his favorite matchup. While people cheered for me, I knew that nobody really expected me to win, so I just said ‘heck, let’s do it’ and went back to my old style. I wanted to show them- while skill and physical is important in Starcraft, it can be overcome through experience.
Q. (to YellOw) June 20, 2009, the team is losing 2:0 with The Revolutionist Protoss Bisu as the opponent. The odds were stacked, but you showed the non believers with your first victory in 735 days. YellOw: Many people cheered me on and I was so grateful for my fans. It was the bottom of my slump. After going into Air force ACE as my military service, I had to admit my style of playing Zerg was losing its merit. I was practicing a more greedy style, but I always had one or two mistakes and lost. I was mad at myself. I never did well during practice and I also didn’t believe I could beat the strongest protoss in his favorite matchup. While people cheered for me, I knew that nobody really expected me to win, so I just said ‘heck, let’s do it’ and went back to my old style. I wanted to show them- while skill and physical is important in Starcraft, it can be overcome through experience.
Q. (to YellOw) June 20, 2009, the team is losing 2:0 with The Revolutionist Protoss Bisu as the opponent. The odds were stacked, but you showed the non believers with your first victory in 735 days. YellOw: Many people cheered me on and I was so grateful for my fans. It was the bottom of my slump. After going into Air force ACE as my military service, I had to admit my style of playing Zerg was losing its merit. I was practicing a more greedy style, but I always had one or two mistakes and lost. I was mad at myself. I never did well during practice and I also didn’t believe I could beat the strongest protoss in his favorite matchup. While people cheered for me, I knew that nobody really expected me to win, so I just said ‘heck, let’s do it’ and went back to my old style. I wanted to show them- while skill and physical is important in Starcraft, it can be overcome through experience.
On November 16 2015 10:42 DCStarcraftGall wrote: Reporter's Pick on the Top 5 Lim Jin Roks.
1. 2001 September 8th, Coca Cola OnGamenet Starleague Finals 5set. Neo Hall of Valhalla BoxeR, the best TvZ player at the time, and the first Zerg to put him on the ropes with the 2:2. This is where the nickname Storm Zerg came to be as the pair duked it out at Valhalla. 14years old, but still a good, classic game to watch.
2. 2001 September 8th, Coca Cola OnGamenet Starleague Finals 4set. Ragnarok Ragnarok was called the graveyard of Zerg, and YellOw decides to use the ultimate build- a sunken colony rush on the low ground. It was a new thing for a Zerg to pull out these strategic games, and while YellOw lost, the game was still his.
3. 2003 KTF Ever OnGamenet Proleague Playoff, KTF vs Dongyang Orions 1set. Gaema Gowon Still known as one of the best Lim Jin Roks in many sites. Witness BoxeR's incredible marine-medic micro that was the bane of many Zergs.
4. 2009-2010 Shinhan Bank Proleague 1 Round 2nd week, SKT1 vs Airforce ACE 1set. 용오름. While known for his early aggression, YellOw bends to the meta and uses 3 hatchery mutalisk into defilers, showing he still understands the current trend. BoxeR uses... nukes?!
5. Ever Starleague 2004 semifinals. games 1-3 Many fans couldn't wait to see the two legends play in a Bo5. The stadium broke the record with all the starcraft fans, but the games were 3:0 BoxeR, with 3 Bunker rushes in a row. Disappoint.
while i can't fault #3 and #5, i feel these games were much better than the ones mentioned by the reporter.
coca-cola osl final set 1 - so much better than set 5. if yellow didn't get fucked over with hall of valhalla being the map played twice he would have won the osl for sure.
kpga winners championship (blade storm and sauron game) - boxer gave no fucks for this series but provide plays that will be in highlight videos to come for eons (the cc lift and the infamous scv/marine rush)
The memories, man, the memories. The great thing about BW (and any game with staying power) is that old memories last, new ones are created, and all of them shape the game. There were a lot of great rivalries in Brood War. In terms of just TvZ, there were some outstanding ones that followed on the heels of BoxeR-YellOw: oov and July, NaDa and sAviOr, among others, and, of course, Flash and Jaedong. Each subsequent rivalry took the game to greater heights. But BoxeR-YellOw has ascendancy in BW (and perhaps gaming) for a reason. A career is defined by one's opponents and, especially, rivals. But reading that interview it's like those two not only let the rivalry define their gaming career, but took the synergy of that gaming bond into their lives outside the game.
The genius related question in a nutshell is basically that fans wanted to see Boxer faceoff against Yellow to which both replied more or less that it was regretful that they didn't face off during a deathmatch during the episodes.
Thanks for the interview, really interesting responses from both of them; it's nice to see that they're both doing well - I'm especially hopeful Yellow can keep his TV-appearance thing going. I also enjoyed watching some of those old BW vids, I wasn't into SC at that point so it was neat to actually see them.
It's weird to think that most people from other esport games don't know the name BoXeR, hopefully this will be taught in primary school history lessons in the future
On November 16 2015 10:29 DCStarcraftGall wrote: Q. (to YellOw) June 20, 2009, the team is losing 2:0 with The Revolutionist Protoss Bisu as the opponent. The odds were stacked, but you showed the non believers with your first victory in 735 days. YellOw: Many people cheered me on and I was so grateful for my fans. It was the bottom of my slump. After going into Air force ACE as my military service, I had to admit my style of playing Zerg was losing its merit. I was practicing a more greedy style, but I always had one or two mistakes and lost. I was mad at myself. I never did well during practice and I also didn’t believe I could beat the strongest protoss in his favorite matchup. While people cheered for me, I knew that nobody really expected me to win, so I just said ‘heck, let’s do it’ and went back to my old style. I wanted to show them- while skill and physical is important in Starcraft, it can be overcome through experience. BoxeR: It’s a thought that I just had after listening to YellOw, but a lot of stylish players disappeared from the game scene with the introduction of optimized builds. If a player sets the meta, everyone follows him after looking at his replay. The problem with this is that the meta makes all the maps look alike and the games begin to look similar. I think it all started with the replay system. I think a ‘pro’ should have his or her own style and view of the game, and their styles should be the weapon, but everybody just follows a player when he painstakingly makes a new build after watching his replay. As this continues on, more players don’t care about making up new builds, but just focus on optimizing ones that already exist, down to the last second. I want to suggest to Blizzard that Replays should be more secluded on who gets to view them. Maybe just observers, or players on your friends list. I think the game would be much more enjoyable to watch if there was a personal twist for each progamer. YellOw: I agree with BoxeR. I think too much luxury ends up biting back in the end. While the general community needs replays to improve, I feel there has to be a bigger skill gap between the pros and amateurs for the fans to go crazy during big plays and amazing builds.
For me, this was the most interesting part of the interview. I'm not sure if extremely limiting access to replays would completely eliminate people observing and copying an optimized build. It would definitely slow down that process, but I think it would still happen.
That said, the phenomenon of everyone else copying an optimized build (and optimizing it further), is what initially dampened my amazement when I found out about pro Brood War (around January of 2011). SC2 seemed to go the same way for me as well. All the games seemed so similar, and it definitely felt stale from a viewing standpoint. But having recently (in the last month and a half) put genuine effort into 1v1 Brood War ladder, and practicing some of these builds, I get a very real sense of how much effort and time (oh god, the countless hours) the pros must've put in in order to realize all of these builds. Within the optimized builds though, are nuances that I feel are where the pros still display that skill and knowledge gap.
I often heard the following:
(1) If FanTaSy was about to play (espcially versus a Protoss), you could be sure that you'd see relentless vulture movement and harrassment. (2) If JangBi was playing, and the game progressed into the middle and late stages, you were pretty much guaranteed to see a series of psionic storms during major battles. (3) If Kwanro was playing, you knew that you'd see very aggressive zergling play. (4) Leta vs Zerg? A well-executed 2 port wraith. (5) Bisu vs Zerg? A high chance of some very exact timing and use of Dark Templars. (6) Was free playing vs Terran? Just watch how and when he engaged tank lines with just Zealot-Dragoon throughout the entirety of the mid-game phase. (7) If Jaedong was playing, there was always the potential of him picking apart his opponent with expertly controlled Zerglings or Mutas, or he'd see/sense some weakness and just end the game with a sudden swell of units.
I'm sure there are many more examples that could be added to this list by those who followed the game since the early days.
FlaSh seems to be the one player that didn't have a distinct characteristic. Again, I'm speaking out of ignorance, but from what has been said by people who followed the scene through FlaSh's dominance, and from the few VODs of FlaSh's "amazing" games that I've watched, he seemed to just know the game and know what was the best/correct choice based on the state of the game. It seemed like he would rarely show fantastic micro play, but instead he would have everything accounted for, he'd know when he could have a possible timing, and he'd also know what the opponent should have in a given situation that would prevent FlaSh from achieving a certain objective (expand/advance/snipe a building or unit). If the opponent didn't have whatever it was, then FlaSh would calmly cross that objective off the list and proceed to the next objective.
I guess what all this boils down to, is that the game got so figured out, that it became somewhat more difficult to capture the attention of new viewers. For those who followed the game over the years, and for those who play it often and are trying to optimize their own play, watching the pros play is that much more interesting. How well is he hitting the timings? How close to perfect is he executing this build? At what point is there a small deviation? And why does he deviate? How does he engage and fight during battles?
I, and I'm sure others here, would appreciate it if someone with first hand knowledge of the scene and the evolution of the matchups could give their thoughts on player styles and optimized builds.
On November 16 2015 11:36 BLinD-RawR wrote: Great interview and great translation, Thank you!
Q. (to YellOw) June 20, 2009, the team is losing 2:0 with The Revolutionist Protoss Bisu as the opponent. The odds were stacked, but you showed the non believers with your first victory in 735 days. YellOw: Many people cheered me on and I was so grateful for my fans. It was the bottom of my slump. After going into Air force ACE as my military service, I had to admit my style of playing Zerg was losing its merit. I was practicing a more greedy style, but I always had one or two mistakes and lost. I was mad at myself. I never did well during practice and I also didn’t believe I could beat the strongest protoss in his favorite matchup. While people cheered for me, I knew that nobody really expected me to win, so I just said ‘heck, let’s do it’ and went back to my old style. I wanted to show them- while skill and physical is important in Starcraft, it can be overcome through experience.
Fantastic read thanks again for the vod, rewatch it was so nice.
I also share the opinion of boxer with the replay, replays brought a completly new era on Starcraft. Before build order was secret, and the optimisation was house made... Now its different
On November 18 2015 01:38 SWAT-Kat wrote: I often heard the following:
(1) If FanTaSy was about to play (espcially versus a Protoss), you could be sure that you'd see relentless vulture movement and harrassment. (2) If JangBi was playing, and the game progressed into the middle and late stages, you were pretty much guaranteed to see a series of psionic storms during major battles. (3) If Kwanro was playing, you knew that you'd see very aggressive zergling play. (4) Leta vs Zerg? A well-executed 2 port wraith. (5) Bisu vs Zerg? A high chance of some very exact timing and use of Dark Templars. (6) Was free playing vs Terran? Just watch how and when he engaged tank lines with just Zealot-Dragoon throughout the entirety of the mid-game phase. (7) If Jaedong was playing, there was always the potential of him picking apart his opponent with expertly controlled Zerglings or Mutas, or he'd see/sense some weakness and just end the game with a sudden swell of units.
I'm sure there are many more examples that could be added to this list by those who followed the game since the early days.
FlaSh seems to be the one player that didn't have a distinct characteristic. Again, I'm speaking out of ignorance, but from what has been said by people who followed the scene through FlaSh's dominance, and from the few VODs of FlaSh's "amazing" games that I've watched, he seemed to just know the game and know what was the best/correct choice based on the state of the game. It seemed like he would rarely show fantastic micro play, but instead he would have everything accounted for, he'd know when he could have a possible timing, and he'd also know what the opponent should have in a given situation that would prevent FlaSh from achieving a certain objective (expand/advance/snipe a building or unit). If the opponent didn't have whatever it was, then FlaSh would calmly cross that objective off the list and proceed to the next objective.
I guess what all this boils down to, is that the game got so figured out, that it became somewhat more difficult to capture the attention of new viewers. For those who followed the game over the years, and for those who play it often and are trying to optimize their own play, watching the pros play is that much more interesting. How well is he hitting the timings? How close to perfect is he executing this build? At what point is there a small deviation? And why does he deviate? How does he engage and fight during battles?
I, and I'm sure others here, would appreciate it if someone with first hand knowledge of the scene and the evolution of the matchups could give their thoughts on player styles and optimized builds.
I wanted to bump this for visibility. In my opinion, flash was first known as a highly ranked teamhouse practice partner. His first games were prepared well on very interesting maps. They were cheeses, lol. This is practically where he got his sort of nickname from the scene, but from then he he started to take games off the best of the best, nearly every game being a win. Similar to sea, he was known as an incredibly solid up-and-comer that you had to keep your eyes on.
To me, he was most well known as the player who pioneered TvP with his upgraded goliath timing. I don't recall the exact builds, but it was the thing to study at the time because he was the only player who could hit such a sharp timing against the carrier protoss style that was dominating at the time.
I recall watching FPVODs and recounting the opinions of some Korean pros. His timings were so sharp and calculated, that it came down to 1 scv being controlled differently to mine gas for very specific amounts of time. needless to say, everything in his builds came down to perfect execution and perfect resource management. I think yellow himself commented one time while he was watching flash in the team house. flash never went above 200 minerals, not once unless there was a reason to, or until he was maxed--and he was never supply capped. it all showed in his crisp timings and he was definitely a major factor in BW becoming a macro game that you see now.
Other innovators that come to mind were bisu, iloveoov, savior even reach. they were all vying for status as that 'macro T/P/Z'. When savior was at his prime, word was that people showed up the studio to watch his games, to see just how badly he'd school his opponents. He was that good, and his micro and ability to defend with the bare minimal was absolutely the best. This style really reflected upon the next generation I believe--just the idea of defending with the absolute bare minimal.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- more pro opinions: + Show Spoiler +
I'd also add that if you saw a game with firebathero, you'd see battlecruisers more often than not, and a lot of incredible trolling (without losing the game). He was one of the only higher-tiered players at the time who used battlecruisers at all in TvZ.
There was a player named V-gundam and a few other players who started the metal composition that's the norm today. there was quite a few variances on the Fake-Double (factory) build at the time (gundam rush-ish), which was basically a fast factory with units that pushed across the map, to mask and buy time for the fact that the terran was expanding behind it. usually it consisted of one vulture, perhaps two with spider mines, 6 marines, one tank to deal with the dragoon and if controlled properly, it killed off a fast robo build by protoss.
intotherainbow (player up until 2006 or so) = reavers. as simple as that. also he was hilariously good at trolling with the dark archon and mindcontrolling a worker to play 2 races vs 1. there was this one game he played PvT where he mindcontrolled an scv relatively early, and then proceeded to play mostly TvT and win. Also one of those players known for their corsair control vs scourge.
garimto (2001 player) = zealots. there were so many games of 2 gate pvp where garimto would just win based off zealot micro. it's really funny thinking back on those times
Nal_ra was quite well known for his archons and late-game spellcasting, including that one famous arbiter game on an island map against goodfriend. His rivalry with savior was basically a late-game slugfest with casters and archons and crap. a well known game was dubbed the 'holy war'. alluding to the crusades? I guess.
anytime = dts, carriers. there was this one semifinals where he killed the favourite (yellow) only producing DTs. this was when yellow knew they were coming and had spores up even. he never expected that many dt's though... a sad moment as a yellow fan ):<.
Stork was basically that protoss who played macro, won with early dragoon zealot bulldogs, and played to win with carriers and storm. has some great games with cannons, reavers, and disruptor web abuse.
Grrrr... was well known for interesting builds, played random before deciding on protoss, and had a pretty good reaver drop. only foreigner to have one a premier sc:bw tournament, and the very first official OSL one at that (before OSL was called OSL). his nickname was something along the lines of green-eyed warrior, and he stayed in korea after retiring early.
Leg, legionnaire is a beloved TL.net community member who pops on from time to time. I believe he even commentated for sc:bw and sc2 as a small one-shot stint, it was cute. he's known as the only foreigner to have performed an all-kill in Korean progleague. he was playing for the all-foreigner team (believe it or not there existed a thing) consisted of a bunch of players I don't remember the full names of. point is, he all-killed, he had the record for most reaver kills in one game, was our foreigner hope, is aussie, and he was a great guy!
Boxer had this knack of winning a game, much like MC or MVP did in sc2. his timings were crisp much like flash but in the sense of the phrase, "timing attack" he'd come at you with a specific vulture timing and wreck you to the point that it didn't matter that his minerals piled up to the thousands, and he was just controlling a handful of units all the while. He had incredibly creative strategies involving drops, mines, marines and medic, and siege tanks. you could write a book on some of his games because of how epic they were at the time. ... one example of a game: his opponent had hopeless amounts of carriers built up. the essential counter to carriers at the time if behind were cloaked wraiths. his opponent, knowing this, tried to seal the game by building observers. the counterplay to observers is scanning and swooping in to take care of them before the wraiths died. his opponent proceeded to make incredible amounts of observers to feel safe. so boxer in this particular game (and he did this in quite a few games in history) did something a bit unprecedented or thinkable. he made a bunch of medics, one for each observer. he scanned, flanked with his medics, and casted optic flare on each observer individually to blind their detection. if even one observer was safe from this, the entire tactic fails, but he made it work and killed the carriers with a hopelessly small amount of wraiths. in other games, he made enough ghosts to lockdown each carrier, and kill them with a small amount of goliaths or wraiths. it was great to see, believe me, haha. one of his trademark trolls (that worked surprisingly well) was his usage of EMP + nuke on nexus. this was his fanservice, basically. if you didn't know, if you emp a nexus as the nuke falls, it loses enough shields that it dies to that one nuke, and he used this sort of strategy as a sort of pocket strategy as he was playing for the airforce team. another example was against joyo on an island map where he had to resort to microing a small amount of units against a large carrier army. it involved dropping, repairing, and whittling down carriers with a handful of goliaths and eventually winning the game this way.
Julyzerg was this player--one of the all time greats--who won something at every era of sc:bw. he was the "god of war". why? because he just loved fighting and destroying you with floods of units. everything he did was reminiscent of starship troopers, except he was the swarm of aliens. his zergling micro goes in the books as one of the best examples of zerg efficiency. it was simply amazing. imagine life in sc2, but once he got the zerlings in your base, you lost the battle. they'd stay in there for the next 2-10 minutes and pick off a worker here, while you're not watching. scout everything you have in your base, kill more workers mining gas, injure more workers for later, and continue to kill and pillage and wreck your mineral line until you built cannons or made ranged units to finally deal with them. he was also one of the pioneers of the mutalisk stacking technique that we see now. that started around 2006, maybe later where shark (another Z on MBC) who figured out that if you selected a distant unit and collected it into the same selection as your air units, they would stack with a move command. people grouped slow-moving overlords at the corners of the map, larvae (since they couldn't move) or intentionally trap units in a prison somewhere to efficiently use this technique. for a string of time, july won games just on the back of mutalisk micro, whether you had turrets, stimmed marines, or not. also super famous for his 4 pools and other speedling shenanigans. his macro game was also beautiful to watch. he'd also always transition off mutalisks into ultralisks and just destroy you with way too many units to handle. he was the APM zerg, before APM was even a thing that people watched. seriously, his guy had the sickest zerg micro at the time, and could probably still tussle with the best. his APM peak against best in the ever OSL 2008 finals (final crowning moment for july) saw him at just shy of 1000. it just look absolutely beastly and ridiculous with an average of 350 or more--and that amounts to 6 mouseclicks/keyboard strokes a second.
along the same lineage as july was of course, the storm zerg, yellow not many people are going to claim him as great as boxer, but he really was. he was -the- zerg to watch when zerg was at its darkest, had the most creative strategies, and was basically the strategic version of boxer in zerg form. there are so many memorable games that made him stand out aside from his achievements (and non-achievements). there is this one game in a pimpest play (best replay compliation for the foreigner scene at the time) where it's ultra low economy mode and it's basically mined out. he has a handful of units left and a defiler. his opponent has one wraith and yellow doesn't have a single bit of anti air. what does he do? take his handful of units, consume for dark swarm energy, and pave a dark swarm pathway for his only remaining drone to make the gas pilgrimage. that is, he needed just enough gas from that one gas mining trip to make that set of scourge to close it out. I know him most lovingly for his 2cm drops which he displayed once again in glorious OG fashion against bisu long past his peak. this was around the time when the airforce team (full of retired players) actually claimed some proleague wins and climbed out of last place. boy were those the days lol.
there was this player who went by the name GGPLAY and I want to highlight this player in specific because at his peak I have no doubt he was the best at what he did. his peak hit, then he retired to mediocrity in part because of his injury (perhaps carpal tunnel. I don't recall). what he did right was ZvT and lategame zerg. in one series against iris (an incredibly aggressive bio-tank terran player), he managed to go 0-2 and proceed to clean sweep the series (one of the only times this ever happened) in horrifyingly close games. how he did this was on the back of his incredible defiler play. once he got defilers, he was magic. he was Houdini. he snuck himself out of situations where 95% of players would lose. he defended with so little and played this unit to perfection in other to win the series and adoration as the victor of one of the most revered set of games In all of SC:BW. this was stuff that legitimately made fangirls, commentators, and viewers and home scream. game attached--+ Show Spoiler +
nada is the sort of player who played freestyle at the time. his apm was insane, his multitasking was up to the task, his marine medic was on the same level of boxer, but he had the macro to back it up. he was basically good at everything and anything and that includes winning games. before flash, he was the most winningest player ever with most titles won, a gold mouse (which few people have), and had the most consistency across all the generations of sc:bw. so basically, before flash was flash, nada was flash. or rather, flash became the new nada.
oh and who could forget Reach. this guy was my favourite progamer at the time, until he stopped playing around 2006-2008. he was one of the original macro protosses, and was the original bisu with his good looks, crazy hair, and amazing micro. the community nicknamed him the MAN-TOSS because each one of his strategies and moves were so damn manly. he would take engagements he had no business taking. all of his units were named after him. zealots = manlots, storms = manstorms, dragoons = mangoons, reavers = manreavers, scarab = manscarabs!! IDK!, everything about him excuded manliness, which a certain female Samsung coach commented on. he would move a handful of dragoons in front of a mine to bait the activation and chase, then back up and start the attack animation in time to kill the mine. this was called minesweeping and it was a way (a very situational and seldomly attempted way) to clear out early mines without an observer, something he was definitely known for was his zealot bombs. my god those were glorious. in PvT he'd mine-drag using citadel zealots to kill a giant cluster of siege tanks and vultures. it became the way of dealing with the mid-game terran slow-push with turrets. you'd have one or more shuttles to delay the push and force the terran to place mines and tanks in inconvenient places. I remember a game where he used a DT to mine-drag. now if you didn't know, the spider mine has the attack animation, then it deals the damage. so if you picked up a unit that was juuuust about to get hit, it wouldn't take any damage, but the mine would splash--DT's obviously being used because you needed detection, lest units like zealots be killed by vultures the moment they're dropped. his storm usage (much like jangbi) was also absolutely baller. that was where his Korean nickname came from. he was basically the god of storm, it would blanket the entire siege line and easily clean up the fight.. and cemented him as one of the alltime greats of PvT. the last of his notable games was vs. choujja (another great zerg on KT at the time) there was a massive devourer and mutalisk air army (a potent combo against air in ZvP) that got locked down entirely by a few casts of maelstrom (a disabling spell on dark archons that was rarely used) then he walks in with his air army and archons to rub it in.
I really suggest you look up old builds on the wiki and maybe even watch some games around 2004/2005. it was hilarious how fun games could be, you literally didn't know what to expect when the meta was so creative.