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On November 04 2015 03:38 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:35 ddayzy wrote:On November 04 2015 03:21 Nebuchad wrote:
Your claim is perfectly clear, but I guess if it makes you feel superior to pretend I don't get it, go ahead.
The answer is, you are able to get away with the claim that he didn't try because the games looked bad. If he had said exactly what he has said and Life had played three macro games, ultimately winning due to being better, that wouldn't be embarrassing for the foreign scene. At the most Lilbow gets a slap on the wrist for venting on twitter after a loss, which everyone ever has done. If Lilbow had said absolutely nothing and Life did that to him, that would still be embarrassing for the foreign scene. They sent their best, he got rekt in a ridiculous fashion.
You are literally arguing that "foreign scene is embarrassed" and "foreign player produces embarrassing games" have no connection to each other. I don't know what else to say. Life played three games and won because he was better. The results is completly irrelevant, this is what I'm trying to get accross and you are claiming to get. Him not bothering to try his best, or at all, which was all that was expected of him is what makes it look bad. Nobody expects foreigners to beat koreans but we at least expected him to actually fucking try. The games themself are completly irrelevant, his attitude and complete lack of repsect towards fans, torunement host and the players whos spot he took is the problem. He didn't take the spot of anyone. He claimed his spot. It was his. For the rest, this is basically a rehash of your argument, so see my previous post.
He did not claim it, Blizzard have given foreigners a free pass to get into Blizzcon. He was shielded against better competition. Blizzard made a decision which gave him a free pass over better korean players. This is not earning it, he was giving it. He did beat weaker oponents but it would be like claiming the winner of my local tennisclubs tournament deserves a Wimbledon final spot.
You are presenting zero counter arguments in your previous post, until you do that I can't give you a new argument. You claimed people are angry because of the results which is just untrue.
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On November 04 2015 03:36 DonDomingo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:25 frazzle wrote:On November 04 2015 01:53 DonDomingo wrote:
What's with the entitlement and hysteria? Lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything - except in your minds. Well, if that is his attitude, then he is getting what he deserves. I'm not good enough to qualify for BlizzCon myself. Along comes Lilbow who manages to qualify. He then chooses to prioritize Legacy of the Void. How dare he choose differently than I imagine I would if I were in his stead! I am angry. Better announce on TeamLiquid | Twitter | Reddit and | or elsewhere that Lilbow is a disgrace to mankind for his unsportmanshiplike conduct and for letting down all of us who cheered for the last remaining foreign hope.
Why not?
Why come here to defend Lilbow? Using your logic, then I have no obligation to not criticize his unsportsman-like approach, except in your hysterical little mind.
Why discuss SC2? Why care at all?
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On November 04 2015 03:47 ddayzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:23 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 04 2015 02:44 ddayzy wrote:On November 04 2015 02:28 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 04 2015 01:02 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:44 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 22:21 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
[quote]
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story. I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did. People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games. I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose. Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere. You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity. I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play? I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest. 1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy. 2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points. 3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc. 4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker. edit: On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:
[quote]
Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent.
To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story. I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did. People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games. I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose. It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league. They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals). 1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this? 2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other. 3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to? 4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games. 1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations. 2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow. 3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring. 4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene... You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2. 1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone? 2. No you can't and you aren't. Why they are better is completly irrelevant. The fact is that they are better and Lilbow is shielded against better competition. Thus giving him a easier road to a competition and easy price money. 3. What do they offer? 4. I'm not taking a wild stab in the dark at this. I am one of those masters players and I have talked to several, master and gm, and non of the ones were aspiring to become professionals. It's like chess, we like to improve and compete but most us are not planning on doing it for a living. 1)You're back peddling. You called him "the representative." Now you're saying the foreign representative on that stage which means nothing as he's the only one so that's obvious enough. You say he's "supposed to be the best" which is the unreasonable expectations creeping in. I wouldn't consider him the best foreigner. One of the best, sure, but not the best. I do think it's unreasonable for you to think a pro has to prepare for every tournament (especially in cases with extenuating circumstances). The rest I can agree with. No doubt all eyes were on him and he fucked up. 2)You could say Lilbow is shielded or you could stay Korean players have unfair advantage due to "korean steroids." I know you get what I mean, but just to spell it out. 0 lag kr ladder, team houses, tournaments within driving distance. Oh, and Internet since Lilbow says he doesn't even have good connection in his home. 3)Switch the Korean names with the NA ones and see if anyone can tell the difference. MAYBE, if you were inside the replay you could check for macro mechanics, but from watching a vod REALLY hard. 4)No need to deny yourself your dream. If you want it, go for it. Anyone playing 1,500 games a season might as well be pro (or at least monetize their passion in some way through streaming etc). It's physically impossible to maintain 40 hrs a week job and play that much. It's strange how you continue to insist Lilbow disgraced foreign sc2 when you say yourself you don't watch it and have "zero interest in keeping it alive." 1. He was the repesentative of foreign Starcraft, I assume that goes without saying. How he acted is how foreign Starcraft will be percived by those who don't watch it closely. Again, the assumpton everyone watching the world championship is going to make is that he as the only foreigner is gonna be the best. When he is on that stage this is what he has to represent. He doesn't have to win, but he does have to try. Yes I do think they need to prepare it is what makes them professional. It is what he owed the viewers, the tournament hosts and the players whos spot he took. 2. It doesn't matter, it is not unfair of someone to be better then you. Someone has a natural talent for something, that is not unfair to people who don't. It is unfair for someone to get weaker oponents and when he does not even appreciate the leg up his getting to the point where the payback is him giving everyone the finger I can't see a singel justification for it being there. Calling a teamhouse stereoids is hilarious, are you sugesting teamhouses should be illigal in Starcraft? 3. If you can't tell the difference between good and bad Starcraft, which is what you are saying, I would argue watching it at all is pointless. Then you might as well come over and watch me play. 4. I don't, and most people don't. I have several hobbys, and most people like being good at stuff they do, and that does not mean you want to go pro in it. I know several people who loves Starcraft, chess, football and whatever but non of them want's to try to be professional. I did watch it and I wanted it to exist befor this game.
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On November 04 2015 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:38 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 03:31 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 02:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 02:44 ddayzy wrote:On November 04 2015 02:28 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 04 2015 01:02 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:44 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 22:21 ddayzy wrote:
[quote]
Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere.
You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity.
I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play?
I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest.
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy. 2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points. 3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc. 4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker. edit: On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:
[quote]
It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league. They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals). 1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this? 2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other. 3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to? 4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games. 1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations. 2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow. 3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring. 4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene... You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2. 1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone? So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now. You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you. Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time? Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here.
Time to look in the mirror
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On November 04 2015 03:53 frazzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:36 DonDomingo wrote:On November 04 2015 03:25 frazzle wrote:On November 04 2015 01:53 DonDomingo wrote:
What's with the entitlement and hysteria? Lilbow doesn't owe anyone anything - except in your minds. Well, if that is his attitude, then he is getting what he deserves. I'm not good enough to qualify for BlizzCon myself. Along comes Lilbow who manages to qualify. He then chooses to prioritize Legacy of the Void. How dare he choose differently than I imagine I would if I were in his stead! I am angry. Better announce on TeamLiquid | Twitter | Reddit and | or elsewhere that Lilbow is a disgrace to mankind for his unsportmanshiplike conduct and for letting down all of us who cheered for the last remaining foreign hope. Why not? Why come here to defend Lilbow? Using your logic, then I have no obligation to not criticize his unsportsman-like approach, except in your hysterical little mind. Why discuss SC2? Why care at all?
You're more than welcome to discuss and speculate to your heart's content. It's harmless and most amusing.
Edit:
I'm not defending anyone. I'm just wondering out loud why you guys are so upset.
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On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:38 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 03:31 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 02:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 02:44 ddayzy wrote:On November 04 2015 02:28 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 04 2015 01:02 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:44 TRaFFiC wrote:
[quote]
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
[quote]
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals). 1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this? 2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other. 3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to? 4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games. 1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations. 2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow. 3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring. 4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene... You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2. 1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone? So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now. You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you. Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time? Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here. Time to look in the mirror
Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
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On November 04 2015 03:56 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote:On November 04 2015 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:38 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 03:31 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 02:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 02:44 ddayzy wrote:On November 04 2015 02:28 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 04 2015 01:02 ddayzy wrote:
[quote]
1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this?
2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other.
3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to?
4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games.
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations. 2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow. 3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring. 4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene... You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2. 1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone? So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now. You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you. Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time? Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here. Time to look in the mirror Sorry, was that too black and white for you?
Hypocritical I'd call this one
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Maybe, just maybe lilbow is a 20yo who sometimes do and says stupid shit like well every fucking kid ?! That doesn't make him a disgrace or a sub human or some shit.
Oh I forget we are the great SC2 community no one ever ever commit mistakes around here !!! Sorry
(Thank god FB only arrived when I was in college and thanks god nobody knows me and I was able to delete a lot)
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On November 04 2015 03:58 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote:On November 04 2015 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:38 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 03:31 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 02:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 02:44 ddayzy wrote:On November 04 2015 02:28 TRaFFiC wrote:
[quote]
1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations.
2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow.
3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring.
4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene...
You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2. 1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone? So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now. You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you. Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time? Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here. Time to look in the mirror Sorry, was that too black and white for you? Hypocritical I'd call this one
Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
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On November 04 2015 03:58 Philozovic wrote:
Maybe, just maybe lilbow is a 20yo who sometimes do and says stupid shit like well every fucking kid ?! That doesn't make him a disgrace or a sub human or some shit.
Oh I forget we are the great SC2 community no one ever ever commit mistakes around here !!! Sorry
(Thank god FB only arrived when I was in college and thanks god nobody knows me and I was able to delete a lot)
Oh get of your high horse. Nobody is calling him subhuman so stop fighting windmills. His actions were bad and he got a backlash for it. The only reason this is even a dsicussion is because there are people defending this behaviour.
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It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS...
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There's a lot of confusing facts with opinions going on around here.
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On November 04 2015 03:59 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:58 Penev wrote:On November 04 2015 03:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote:On November 04 2015 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:38 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 03:31 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 02:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 02:44 ddayzy wrote:
[quote]
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged.
Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone? So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now. You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you. Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time? Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here. Time to look in the mirror Sorry, was that too black and white for you? Hypocritical I'd call this one Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
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On November 04 2015 04:02 ZAiNs wrote:
It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS...
TLO stated that Lilbow refused practice help that was offered to him.
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On November 04 2015 04:02 ZAiNs wrote:
It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS...
Have you read the thread? This has been covered. TLO implied that Lilbow was offered practice from other pros and turned it down.
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On November 04 2015 04:02 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:59 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:58 Penev wrote:On November 04 2015 03:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote:On November 04 2015 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:38 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 03:31 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 02:56 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now.
You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you. Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time? Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here. Time to look in the mirror Sorry, was that too black and white for you? Hypocritical I'd call this one Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow. The dishonesty is in the calling it a fact that Sakat said those words. He clearly didn't mean that, you're putting words into his mouth and by doing that you're not arguing in good faith.
He's defending that the games Zest to Inno are comparable to the games Lilbow lost to Life. I answer that they aren't, as Inno played as well as he could and showed respect to Zest, while Life didn't. The answer to that? Life showed respect. How is it not a legitimate question to ask him what is so respectful about Life's 6-pool choice?
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On November 04 2015 03:59 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:58 Penev wrote:On November 04 2015 03:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote:On November 04 2015 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:38 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 03:31 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 02:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 02:44 ddayzy wrote:
[quote]
1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged.
Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone? So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now. You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you. Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time? Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here. Time to look in the mirror Sorry, was that too black and white for you? Hypocritical I'd call this one Cool. You are more than welcome to show my dishonesty then. Please explain to me how Life 6-pooled in game 3 because he wanted to show respect to Lilbow.
Maybe Life actually wanted lilbow to block it and actually try to get a game off of him?
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On November 04 2015 03:37 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 02:34 Wuster wrote:On November 03 2015 22:44 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 22:21 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament"
Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress... Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent. To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story. I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did. People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games. I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose. Just from the SC2 scene in Norway I can tell you that new people do start watching SC2 and some people quite. I assume it's the same everywhere. You put to much faith in the drama, I don't hate Lillbow, I just don't care anymore. He really did show to the world that foreigners don't belong on the big stage. I used to defend foreigners getting a region locked tournament but after this I really can't come up with a singel argument for keeping it. It just seem like a charity. I know that foreigners are not as good as koreans but I did allways imagin the had some heart and passion. Without that, why am I watchign them play? I can't think of a singel reason to watch them. I don't want Lillbow to lose, I don't care if he wins or loses to be honest. 1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy. 2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points. 3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc. 4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker. edit: On November 03 2015 22:36 Zealously wrote:On November 03 2015 22:13 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 22:06 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:03 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 03 2015 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"1100+ comments on screddit cause i got cheesed out of a tournament"
Really? Because he got cheesed? Does he actually not get why people are disappointed in him?
That's one heck of a defense mechanism he's got there... that psychological barrier keeping the truth out must be stronger than a planetary fortress... Absolutely because he got cheesed. Do you think we'd be having this discussion if it went 2-3 or 3-2 in his favor and then he tweets that he practiced 2 games? Of course not. People would be praising his talent. To the people saying this is bad for the scene/foreign scene/unprofessional I say to you remember Bobby Fischer. This guy would show up to tournaments late constantly, forfeit the first 2 matches in bo5, make extravagant demands about playing conditions, and to top it off he was a Jewish Nazi. Yet, he made Chess very popular. People like him are the lifeblood of the sports they compete it in. People love a good story. I dare you to find one person saying "Oh I didn't like Starcraft befor but now that Lillbow guy said he didn't respect the game paying him enough to even bother trying in the biggest torunament of the year I will definitly start watching". I can find you quite a few people who won't watch WCS again because of what he did. People who don't like sc2 most likely won't watch it regardless. But yes, drama always attracts randoms. I'll definitely make a point of watching his next games. I don't understand why Lilbow not taking the tournament seriously would cause people to not watch wcs? It's easy enough to not watch his matches, though I suspect most everybody will, if not to see him lose. It certainly does show a lack of competitive integrity. Since people (casters) were drumming up Lilbow's achievement of making it to the Global Finals, the show of blatant disinterest afforded the year's grand finale would often be construed as indicative of a general mentality amongst WCS competitors. If this is the best WCS Premier could muster, I don't see that the sole representative being ravaged by rudimentary ling aggression three times in a row (and then saying he didn't practice) would make a great case for the league. They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals). I think the point is, people new to SC2 are much more likely to shrug their shoulders at Lilbow and ignore foreign events if that's how much they care about the game. Instead they'll stick with the 15 players who put on good shows and assume the place to watch them is GSL / PL / Korean events. This was a mentality a lot of people had for *not* watching foreign events before they started inviting a few Koreans after all. Also, I'm glad the Stephano comparisons came up, because it was really obvious from peak to near-retirment (and comeback) Stephano that despite all his bluster he really did put work into the game. He just wanted to come off as this super-gifted genius at WoL (which I suppose he was). Lilbow trying to copy that attitude without the results (and secret preparation) just doesn't seem to be working out for him lol. I don't think that Stephano practiced secretly or something, he just thought about the game a lot so indeed technically he didn't practice a lot. I don't remember where I got this idea nor if it's true.
Notice I specifically never say Stephano practiced a lot =p. Because it's true, you can get away with deep conceptualizations if you do it right. Koreans call it image training, Cannonball Adderly is a Saxophone legend who would never practice, just look at sheet music for hours before a concert and play everything perfectly the first time.
I don't know if that's what Stephano did or if he had a smurf, but either way you could tell he put work into the game during his prime.
On November 04 2015 03:55 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:38 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 03:31 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 03:28 Sakat wrote:On November 04 2015 02:56 Nebuchad wrote:On November 04 2015 02:44 ddayzy wrote:On November 04 2015 02:28 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 04 2015 01:02 ddayzy wrote:On November 03 2015 22:44 TRaFFiC wrote:
[quote]
1) you're making a terrible generalization by saying all foreigners have no passion just because the actions of 1 guy.
2) I believe he showed that foreigners DO belong on the big stage. Lilbow didn't make the system and therefore can't be faulted by any perceived unfairness. Btw, I think saying the system is rigged is bullshit. Koreans living in teamhouses have their own advantages living and training in Korea and they can compete in several foreign tournaments to get wcs points.
3) why watch foreigners? I dunno, maybe like me, you're not an elitist. I think I can learn a lot from low level foreign gm. What's the difference? I like foreigners because I can relate to them. They do more fan interaction, interviews in English etc. etc.
4) why have wcs na and eu? Because region locked wcs makes it possible to go pro outside of Korea and keep the foreign dream alive. All those diamond players trying to hit masters, the master players hoping to hit gm, and the gm players trying to go pro. That's what makes the scene. Without it, sc2 would die even quicker.
edit:
[quote]
They should drum up his achievement as it was remarkable. Competitive integrity, big words with a lot of potential interpretations. IMO, not practicing doesn't harm the competitive integrity. Match fixing does. Keep in mind, this is a very isolated incident and it's the first time he's done it. Most people competing in wcs practice a lot, otherwise they likely wouldn't make it very far (nevermind to the global finals). 1. It's a observation based on the actions of the REPRESENTATIV of foreign starcraft at the most important tournament in Starcraft. It's the image he presented of foreign Starcraft to the world and he draged it further down by saying that nobody would practice with him, how unprofessional does that sound? What do you think the koreans or people watching for the first time think about foreign Starcraft after this? 2. The system is rigged, you can not seriously be debating this? If Lilbow had to compete versus the koreans who spot he took only to not practice he would not have gotten that far. The very least he could to for all the free money and wins he got was to try his hardest. It is the equivilent to having the winner of the scottish league play the winner of Premier League for the Premier League title. One team had a much easier road then the other. 3. Heh I love people using the word elitist, is it supose to be a insult? I general people prefer to watch people who are better at things over those worse at it. So you relate to Lilbows attitude? Giving up, no respect for fans tournament host and other players, not preparing not caring. Those are the things you can relate to? 4. I sincerly doubt there are many people playing Starcraft with a view to become pro. If the foreign scene is so ungrateful to the viewers and the organisers giving them a shielded enviorment where they have a shot at winning something that this shameful display is what they come up with I have zero interest in keeping it alive. Die, and I will still watch my GSL and Proleague and play my ladder games. 1)Lilbow isn't the representative of foreign sc2, certainly not official. As it says on his twitter, he's just a crazy dood spamming stalkers. 1 year ago nobody knew him but his mother. 6 months ago he was mentioned in a long list of "has potential." This is part of the problem. People with unreasonable expectations. 2) I can seriously debate it. Talking like your opinions are facts won't get you far. Koreans players grow up and train in a different environment. It's not fair to say x,y,z Korean could beat Lilbow. 3)I didn't mean it to be insulting. I believe that's the correct use of the word. It's your right to say you only want to watch PL and GSL. I still believe that's an elitist attitude. NA and EU scenes have a lot to offer which you are ignoring. 4)Tell that to all the masters and gm players with more than 1,500 games this season. Again with your generalizations about the foreign scene... You don't sound like someone who cares about the growth of sc2. 1. Yes he is, when he gets on that stage he is. This is the biggest Starcraft tournament with people who never normaly watch watching. He is the only foreigner on that stage and he is supose to be the best which makes him the face of foreign Starcraft. Many koreans do not watch foreign tournaments except this one and he is the one they see.This is what they see. If it's offical or not is completly irrelevant, it is the way it will be viewed and how it will be judged. Unreasonable expectations? My only expectation was that he actually did his best to prepare and win, is that expect to much of someone? So if he prepared all day everyday for the last month and the games looked like that, you would feel great right now. You're mad because "foreign starcraft is embarrassed". You've got to ask yourself what exactly it was that was embarrassing. You've got to question the serious face that you make when you pretend that the games looking bad had absolutely no influence on the situation looking bad, because it makes you look either deluded or dishonest. And that goes for plenty of you. Look, I don't think that the games were the problem. Zest and Maru looked terrible and were roflstomped 3-0 but no one is talking shit about them. That's because they took the tournament seriously, and practiced. Lilbow didn't even try. And then he bragged about it. That's the problem Zest and Maru's games didn't look remotely as bad as Lilbow's. Inno did what he does best, and Zest wasn't up to par. There was nothing disrespectful in the way Inno played, and nobody thought "my diamond friend would handle that". Rogue actually showed even more respect, going for gambles rather than playing straight up against Maru... Or maybe you want to say he went for roaches because he thought Maru was so bad he didn't deserve more of his time? Life also showed respect, he studied Lilbow and noticed that his wall-ins were weak, and exploited that. He said it in the post-game interview. It wasn't about not being worth someones time. True, Life said "Lilbow who?" in the pre-game interview but he is known for smack-talking. He said to Zealously I think that he had planned the first game but not the other two. The third game is a 6-pool, for crying out loud. The fact that you just argued that he did a 6-pool on a decently large map in 2015 because he had studied Lilbow really hard and he believed it was the best way to beat this respectable opponent of his should be enough to realize you aren't arguing in good faith here. Time to look in the mirror
You have to remember that when I showed him a quote from Lilbow refuting what he was arguing that he told me Lilbow made a typo...
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On November 04 2015 04:04 frazzle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2015 04:02 ZAiNs wrote:
It's pretty pathetic that a 'community figure' would make a thread like this and doesn't even realise that the main reason Lilbow exclusively practiced LotV was because he COULDN'T practice HotS... Have you read the thread? This has been covered. TLO implied that Lilbow was offered practice from other pros and turned it down.
Yes, I know, but the opening post does not address this at all even though it is THE REASON he didn't practice HotS, and was made by a community figure. TLO said Lilbow was offered practice, but against who? Pretty much all foreigners switched to LotV a while ago, practicing vs people who haven't played HotS for ages is just a waste of time, as is playing vs some mid GMs who played in some of the remaining HotS tournaments (no offense to them).
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EPT
