MC wrote some of his thoughts on today's news. Here's a translation. (Original, Korean post on PGR21.com) I haven't lived with Gerrard or talked to him a lot, so I won't say anything about him.
But YoDa, he was one of my gamer colleagues who I felt closest to, so I'm writing this.
I am in no way defending him. I'm just writing my feelings on this incident.
I first met YoDa when I moved into the IM team house.
I thought he was just an ordinary guy who liked games, so I treated him well like I do with all of the younger players, and we slowly grew more friendly.
After I left the IM team house, YoDa and First also left.
YoDa said he couldn't continue being a gamer from his own home, so he asked me if he could live with me.
Well, living by myself was lonely for me, so I brought him in, fed him and gave him a place to sleep, and we lived together for a year that way.
Then, a good opportunity came up in Germany, so I took those two and headed to the house in Germany, and we lived there for yet another year. Our friendship grew deeper and we had a lot of good memories.
We split up when we returned to Korea this year. I ended up deciding to retire, and I wished them luck going forward.
So I went to YoDa's games to cheer him on...
I still remember, when he first became suspected of fixing matches.
Him telling me it wasn't true, that it wasn't fair, with tears in his eyes.
So I didn't believe it was true.
Think about it. A kid you've lived with for 3 years, someone who might as well be your actual brother, crying and saying it's unjust. Who wouldn't believe him?
After that, before the news stories came out, I heard from colleagues around me that he had been taken to the police station.
I tried in every possible way to contact YoDa, but I wasn't able to contact him, nor his family.
Mmmm.... I guess the last time I saw him in my life was at a gathering with the people who lived together in Germany.
Well, I believed him until the very end. What hurts most is that he betrayed and deceived his fellow gamers, and me, who thought of him as a younger brother.
If it was some other crime, some accident, I would have tried to protect him.
But for a progamer to lose on purpose in a match,
That's the most shameful thing in the world.
I want to say something to the people who arrange the match-fixing, the people who are thinking about it.
A true gamer makes his money by winning.
As a gamer, I've never had the slightest thought of losing on purpose.
I'm not even a progamer now, just someone who streams on the internet. But as someone who was once friends with YoDa and was active as a StarCraft 2 progamer,
On their behalf, I want to offer my deepest apologies to fans of esports and fans of StarCraft 2 who were hurt by this.
Coach Cho Kyu-nam (ex CJ coach, before match fixing scandal broke out) Savior plays well in practice, but he never performed when playing in actual games. He buys a lot of brand items nowadays, maybe his mental state isn't very healthy? I was thinking this when Investigators started investigating. When this happened, Savior went on his knees and said. "Coach, It's really not me. Please believe me" Savior who was already suffering from his lack of performance was also being swept by this... So I took him out of the roster, put him on a sick leave and told him to go home and rest. ON the internet, there are terrible people who are spreading rumors that Savior is the criminal. Those Fomos bastards even used Savior's silhouette on their pictures. Things died down when I told everyone that It is 100% not savior and that I will sue anyone who spreads rumors. When all of this is over, Savior will finally resurrect. Fighting.
a few days later after all the information came out, coach cho announced his resignation from cj and his immediate retirement from coaching.
This reminds me of Aaron Rodgers and Ryan Braun when Braun was accused of using steroids and denied it while his friend Rodgers defended him to everyone and on Twitter. Turned out Braun lied to him and was suspended for using steroids.
Coach Cho Kyu-nam (ex CJ coach, before match fixing scandal broke out) Savior plays well in practice, but he never performed when playing in actual games. He buys a lot of brand items nowadays, maybe his mental state isn't very healthy? I was thinking this when Investigators started investigating. When this happened, Savior went on his knees and said. "Coach, It's really not me. Please believe me" Savior who was already suffering from his lack of performance was also being swept by this... So I took him out of the roster, put him on a sick leave and told him to go home and rest. ON the internet, there are terrible people who are spreading rumors that Savior is the criminal. Those Fomos bastards even used Savior's silhouette on their pictures. Things died down when I told everyone that It is 100% not savior and that I will sue anyone who spreads rumors. When all of this is over, Savior will finally resurrect. Fighting.
a few days later after all the information came out, coach cho announced his resignation from cj and his immediate retirement from coaching.
Coach Cho Kyu-nam (ex CJ coach, before match fixing scandal broke out) Savior plays well in practice, but he never performed when playing in actual games. He buys a lot of brand items nowadays, maybe his mental state isn't very healthy? I was thinking this when Investigators started investigating. When this happened, Savior went on his knees and said. "Coach, It's really not me. Please believe me" Savior who was already suffering from his lack of performance was also being swept by this... So I took him out of the roster, put him on a sick leave and told him to go home and rest. ON the internet, there are terrible people who are spreading rumors that Savior is the criminal. Those Fomos bastards even used Savior's silhouette on their pictures. Things died down when I told everyone that It is 100% not savior and that I will sue anyone who spreads rumors. When all of this is over, Savior will finally resurrect. Fighting.
a few days later after all the information came out, coach cho announced his resignation from cj and his immediate retirement from coaching.
There are a few figures I've met in my life that make me think like this. If I knew someone had done something similar... I'd probably have felt the same way.
I think it is so difficult for me to empathize with how MC feels because I don't speak Korean and I didn't spend enough time in Korea to really feel any experience like this.
I obviously don't know any of the players personally, but this is kinda like my feelings as a Prime fan about the team as a whole - I wanted to believe that they were just going through a rough spot, that they needed a new sponsor, or some new players, or a new coach, and they could come back. And when I realized they weren't coming back, I thought there was no shame in quietly dying off, after all pretty much all the other original sc2 squads already have. But to go out like this...
I guess in the end it turned out to be a good thing that so many other Prime players ended up leaving or retiring, hopefully they escaped being caught up in this sad, sordid affair.
I'm not sure about the real situation. Yoda and the rest got arrested, but there's a trial ahead, there's no sentence yet so we can't be sure there are enough evidences. Of course I'm sad about this trouble, Yoda was a good terran and he never got the chance to be invited in a really rich and legendary team. In other case, this would never happen. Savior was much bigger loss, all of his championships were removed, but Yoda still got nothing to lose. Whatever has to be done, it has to be. It's good that the authorities and the procecution did their job, let's hope those matches won't turn into a practice.
On October 19 2015 13:54 GTR wrote: reminds me of five years ago...
Coach Cho Kyu-nam (ex CJ coach, before match fixing scandal broke out) Savior plays well in practice, but he never performed when playing in actual games. He buys a lot of brand items nowadays, maybe his mental state isn't very healthy? I was thinking this when Investigators started investigating. When this happened, Savior went on his knees and said. "Coach, It's really not me. Please believe me" Savior who was already suffering from his lack of performance was also being swept by this... So I took him out of the roster, put him on a sick leave and told him to go home and rest. ON the internet, there are terrible people who are spreading rumors that Savior is the criminal. Those Fomos bastards even used Savior's silhouette on their pictures. Things died down when I told everyone that It is 100% not savior and that I will sue anyone who spreads rumors. When all of this is over, Savior will finally resurrect. Fighting.
a few days later after all the information came out, coach cho announced his resignation from cj and his immediate retirement from coaching.
That was the end of BW for me.
You're not alone. It sows mistrust, allegations, and conflict. Hearing about the Savior scandal made me feel physically ill. Arresting and prosecuting the guilty parties doesn't even feel particularly gratifying because you don't know how many more are out there who just haven't been caught. It's an awful miasma that seeps through every future competition. It would have been naive to think that the BW arrests put an end to matchfixing brokers, just like it's naive to think that YoDa and Gerrard and their 9+ cohorts acted alone or that more won't get the same idea to approach pro players and coaches. It takes years for viewers and fans to trust the competitive community again, and that trust will never quite get back to its original level. We always moderate heavily when it comes to matchfixing allegations because false incrimination can be life-ruining, but we have to know (and I think we all do already) that there will always be a shadowy side to any competitive sport or eSport. Even if it's not actively happening, there are always people hiding in the darkness trying to make it happen, and that's the truly repulsive thing.
On October 19 2015 13:54 GTR wrote: reminds me of five years ago...
Coach Cho Kyu-nam (ex CJ coach, before match fixing scandal broke out) Savior plays well in practice, but he never performed when playing in actual games. He buys a lot of brand items nowadays, maybe his mental state isn't very healthy? I was thinking this when Investigators started investigating. When this happened, Savior went on his knees and said. "Coach, It's really not me. Please believe me" Savior who was already suffering from his lack of performance was also being swept by this... So I took him out of the roster, put him on a sick leave and told him to go home and rest. ON the internet, there are terrible people who are spreading rumors that Savior is the criminal. Those Fomos bastards even used Savior's silhouette on their pictures. Things died down when I told everyone that It is 100% not savior and that I will sue anyone who spreads rumors. When all of this is over, Savior will finally resurrect. Fighting.
a few days later after all the information came out, coach cho announced his resignation from cj and his immediate retirement from coaching.
I could hear the tone of his voice, even through the translation. The scorn, the anger, the clear understanding that a line has been crossed. This is MC we're talking about. This is a man who, for his entire career, had only one interest, only one goal and desire to drive him above all else: To win. This is MC's very nature, it's who he is. When I hear these words in my head, I don't hear them being choked out through tears. I hear them as a final monologue before turning around and walking away from Yoda for good.
On October 19 2015 17:20 Pandemona wrote: Worst part of all this is the disgracing of the "Yoda" handle Legendary Jedi being tarnished by the dark side in the year 2015. Like Anakin 2.0
Coach Cho Kyu-nam (ex CJ coach, before match fixing scandal broke out) Savior plays well in practice, but he never performed when playing in actual games. He buys a lot of brand items nowadays, maybe his mental state isn't very healthy? I was thinking this when Investigators started investigating. When this happened, Savior went on his knees and said. "Coach, It's really not me. Please believe me" Savior who was already suffering from his lack of performance was also being swept by this... So I took him out of the roster, put him on a sick leave and told him to go home and rest. ON the internet, there are terrible people who are spreading rumors that Savior is the criminal. Those Fomos bastards even used Savior's silhouette on their pictures. Things died down when I told everyone that It is 100% not savior and that I will sue anyone who spreads rumors. When all of this is over, Savior will finally resurrect. Fighting.
a few days later after all the information came out, coach cho announced his resignation from cj and his immediate retirement from coaching.
Yeah well, he made a mistake even though his heart was in the right place. Going out and publicly defending people and saying its 100% not true without having any evidence other than the person in question begging you? He was probably asked to resign because of what he had said. Had he supported Savior but not publicly said anything until after the investigation had broke, maybe the outcome would have been different.
"But for a progamer to lose on purpose in a match,
That's the most shameful thing in the world."
This is fascinating, that he believe this, and from my point of view, it seems laughable that something so tiny and insignificant can feel like the most shameful thing in the world for another. This is witness to that I am really making up all my sorrows, even the ones that seems to be justified by everyone around me.
On October 19 2015 19:15 crappen wrote: "But for a progamer to lose on purpose in a match,
That's the most shameful thing in the world."
This is fascinating, that he believe this, and from my point of view, it seems laughable that something so tiny and insignificant can feel like the most shameful thing in the world for another. This is witness to that I am really making up all my sorrows, even the ones that seems to be justified by everyone around me.
Well now I'm pissed. It's one thing to match fix and another to lie so bluntly to someone who took you in and fed you. Fuck you Yoda I hope Kespa sues the living shit out of you.
On October 19 2015 19:15 crappen wrote: "But for a progamer to lose on purpose in a match,
That's the most shameful thing in the world."
This is fascinating, that he believe this, and from my point of view, it seems laughable that something so tiny and insignificant can feel like the most shameful thing in the world for another. This is witness to that I am really making up all my sorrows, even the ones that seems to be justified by everyone around me.
MC is a progamer. progaming is his world and his career. he is not saying "matchfixing is worse than rape and murder" but that in the world he lives in, for a progamer, with the friends and family he has made through progaming, pertaining to that context it's the worst shame
Just to put reality back in check, MC is in the fantastic position of being able to make a good living from playing SC2 need we forget he's made close to half a million not including salary or other potential sources of income. MC has never been in a situation where he's cashless unsupported and just wanting to keep his progaming dream alive. Also I feel like Yoda did it once because he was in a situation where he had to or retire, then he got carried along because they blackmailed him. Pretty sure Yoda regrets it, not excusing him from this but they should take this into account and be a bit more Lenient. That said everything he's said is pretty much on point.
On October 19 2015 20:48 Ovid wrote: Just to put reality back in check, MC is in the fantastic position of being able to make a good living from playing SC2 need we forget he's made close to half a million not including salary or other potential sources of income. MC has never been in a situation where he's cashless unsupported and just wanting to keep his progaming dream alive. Also I feel like Yoda did it once because he was in a situation where he had to or retire, then he got carried along because they blackmailed him. Pretty sure Yoda regrets it, not excusing him from this but they should take this into account and be a bit more Lenient. That said everything he's said is pretty much on point.
i'm the first person to normally agree that anyone who makes a living/makes money playing computer games is very fortunate, but there are pro sport athletes who made far more YEARLY than MC has in his career and still ended up broke shortly after retiring. $500,000 sounds like infinite money to me, but the way you use money changes when you get a lot of it all at once. you really can't say that "he's never been cashless" just because you know he has a lot of winnings
Very painful to read. Hope MC returns to progaming one day, he really is one of the greatest gamers of all time
I do hope Yoda and the others indicted can learn from it and move on to live a good life away from competitive esports but anyone who can be tempted by money to throw matches needs a lifetime ban
I don't want to take anything from how MC is feeling but saying that progamer should earn money from winning is not exactly the most convincing argument when coming from a guy who won the biggest piece of c$ke in SC2.
But of course it's not like Yoda won only pennies in SC2.
I wonder if it coulnd't be kind of the other way around - Yoda was falsely accused, was frustrated and only after that he gave in and agreed to fix matches.
On October 19 2015 21:43 nimdil wrote: I don't want to take anything from how MC is feeling but saying that progamer should earn money from winning is not exactly the most convincing argument when coming from a guy who won the biggest piece of c$ke in SC2.
That felt a bit awkward to me as well. It's easier to say that when you've yourself earned a lot of money from winning than if you are on the B-team and not that successful in individual leagues.
I will never understand why someone in a competitive scene would lose on purpose. I played amateur soccer and played starcraft on community tournaments and i always fought my hardest in every single game, even when my tecnique failed, i tried to push myself up with will to try and overcome my lack of skill. I can't understand this mindset of losing on purpose. It's disgusting
MC gave him a place to live and play, and then gave him the opportunity to live in Germany and continue his career. I can't imagine what type of person it takes to actually lie right to the face of someone who treats you so well. What a piece of shit.
If anyone ever needed a reminder that money corrupts... they'll lie to their closest friend to make a buck. They'll lie to their fans, even if they know of the consequences. That's how bad people want the dough.
Oh come on stop demonising YoDa. Why do you think he did it in the first place? Imagine living on the bread crums progamers in korea do. With so little money in the scene of course this will happen. If you are going to be angry with someone aim it at the root cause of matchfixing not just the unlucky guy who happened to be caught this time.
Besides MC speaking like progaming is some kind of code of honor über alles... LOL!
On October 19 2015 23:09 Djzapz wrote: If anyone ever needed a reminder that money corrupts... they'll lie to their closest friend to make a buck. They'll lie to their fans, even if they know of the consequences. That's how bad people want the dough.
It's more like that once you've started there's not an easy way out. Yoda could've hardly come out and confessed to MC without risking MC turning him in. That also shows in that Yoda got payed for fixing his first 2 matches but was blackmailed into fixing the last 2. Once you're in over your head with illegal activities the slope gets really steep and slippery quite quickly.
On October 19 2015 23:09 Djzapz wrote: If anyone ever needed a reminder that money corrupts... they'll lie to their closest friend to make a buck. They'll lie to their fans, even if they know of the consequences. That's how bad people want the dough.
It's more like that once you've started there's not an easy way out. Yoda could've hardly come out and confessed to MC without risking MC turning him in. That also shows in that Yoda got payed for fixing his first 2 matches but was blackmailed into fixing the last 2. Once you're in over your head with illegal activities the slope gets really steep and slippery quite quickly.
I think the bit about how he said it wasn't true with "tears in his eyes" struck me as particularly fucking deceitful. I don't understand why we shouldn't be very critical of that considering that YoDa's not the first person to have gone through hardship and we're usually not too incline to defend people who justify their shitty actions on their alleged poverty. South Korea's not exactly a bastion of hard life... well at least not until you fuck yourself over by doing something that's viewed as particularly egregious by the local culture, like match fixing.
I don't particularly care tbh, I don't follow the scene much, but I mean the "kid" burned himself and fucked people along the way. Sucks for MC. Hopefully YoDa gets his shit together.
Also, I want to say, if anyone ever feels like SC2 is no longer to be taken seriously, remember how people defend with relative consistency the anticompetitive actions of the players. I'm not talking about you, Thax, I'm talking in general. It seems to me like there isn't much that takes away from the sport more than the idea that competition is rigged and one player may not be playing to the maximum of their ability because of match fixing. What benefit could there possibly be in taking these things lightly?
On October 19 2015 23:09 Djzapz wrote: If anyone ever needed a reminder that money corrupts... they'll lie to their closest friend to make a buck. They'll lie to their fans, even if they know of the consequences. That's how bad people want the dough.
It's more like that once you've started there's not an easy way out. Yoda could've hardly come out and confessed to MC without risking MC turning him in. That also shows in that Yoda got payed for fixing his first 2 matches but was blackmailed into fixing the last 2. Once you're in over your head with illegal activities the slope gets really steep and slippery quite quickly.
I think the bit about how he said it wasn't true with "tears in his eyes" struck me as particularly fucking deceitful. I don't understand why we shouldn't be very critical of that considering that YoDa's not the first person to have gone through hardship and we're usually not too incline to defend people who justify their shitty actions on their alleged poverty. South Korea's not exactly a bastion of hard life... well at least not until you fuck yourself over by doing something that's viewed as particularly egregious by the local culture, like gambling.
I don't particularly care tbh, I don't follow the scene much, but I mean the "kid" burned himself and fucked people along the way. Sucks for MC. Hopefully he gets his shit together.
Also, I want to say, if anyone ever feels like SC2 is no longer to be taken seriously, remember how people defend with relative consistency the anticompetitive actions of the players. I'm not talking about you, Thax, I'm talking in general. It seems to me like there isn't much that takes away from the sport more than the idea that competition is rigged and one player may not be playing to the maximum of their ability because of match fixing. What benefit could there possibly be in taking these things lightly?
You're absolutely right. I wasn't defending Yoda. He messed it up himself. He lied to people and hurt people who trusted him. And those people have every right to be angry at him, his close friends and distant fans alike.
My comment was about that, unlike the organizers of the betting ring, Yoda is more a dumb kid down on his luck who got pulled in over his head by his coach and other shady figures, rather than a professional criminal cheating and extorting for a living. None of that means he shouldn't face the legal and professional consequences of his actions of course.
I get MC's feelings, I get the communities feelings, I can completely see why someone would resort to theft for money in this industry (the sc2 exports scene historically hasn't treat people well, Hyunn being the prime example), I can't really understand the consequences which seem extreme to me...
What I really don't understand is all the shaming on this thread.
I mean ffs, he's a human being, we all fuck up. Nobody in this thread really understands the circumstances around this person's life that would lead them to match-fixing, but things like this don't happen in a vacuum. People don't steal and fix matches because, "My life is so great! I feel so good today, I think today I will match-fix." If life is good people will feel fulfillment in what they do, but if life is very hard people turn to strategies to change it and try to make it better. Sometimes the strategies are really mal-adaptive and don't actually help, maybe they even cause more pain to others.
It's like a bo5 when the score is 2-2 and one player feels he has to go for cheese to win, then fails miserably (other guy dancing his units)... He is sad, I'm sad as a fan watching (because I want an epic series ), and even the guy that won probably doesn't feel like he won, but more the other guy threw. Mal-adaptive strategy.
Like I said, I get the hurt and anger people feel, just not the shaming.
On October 19 2015 23:39 caznitch wrote: We'll get through this!
I feel really bad for MC. He's one of the true greats and personally he's one of my favourite SC2 players. You can tell how much this has hit him. His post just drips with a mixture of anger, disappointment and distress. Its not his fault, but he clearly feels like he's been taken for a ride and feels in some way responsible; which is unfair, he shouldn't blame himself.
MC has nothing to apologise for and absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.
On October 19 2015 23:09 Djzapz wrote: If anyone ever needed a reminder that money corrupts... they'll lie to their closest friend to make a buck. They'll lie to their fans, even if they know of the consequences. That's how bad people want the dough.
It's more like that once you've started there's not an easy way out. Yoda could've hardly come out and confessed to MC without risking MC turning him in. That also shows in that Yoda got payed for fixing his first 2 matches but was blackmailed into fixing the last 2. Once you're in over your head with illegal activities the slope gets really steep and slippery quite quickly.
I think the bit about how he said it wasn't true with "tears in his eyes" struck me as particularly fucking deceitful. I don't understand why we shouldn't be very critical of that considering that YoDa's not the first person to have gone through hardship and we're usually not too incline to defend people who justify their shitty actions on their alleged poverty. South Korea's not exactly a bastion of hard life... well at least not until you fuck yourself over by doing something that's viewed as particularly egregious by the local culture, like gambling.
I don't particularly care tbh, I don't follow the scene much, but I mean the "kid" burned himself and fucked people along the way. Sucks for MC. Hopefully he gets his shit together.
Also, I want to say, if anyone ever feels like SC2 is no longer to be taken seriously, remember how people defend with relative consistency the anticompetitive actions of the players. I'm not talking about you, Thax, I'm talking in general. It seems to me like there isn't much that takes away from the sport more than the idea that competition is rigged and one player may not be playing to the maximum of their ability because of match fixing. What benefit could there possibly be in taking these things lightly?
You're absolutely right. I wasn't defending Yoda. He messed it up himself. He lied to people and hurt people who trusted him. And those people have every right to be angry at him, his close friends and distant fans alike.
My comment was about that, unlike the organizers of the betting ring, Yoda is more a dumb kid down on his luck who got pulled in over his head by his coach and other shady figures, rather than a professional criminal cheating and extorting for a living. None of that means he shouldn't face the legal and professional consequences of his actions of course.
To be fair the 2nd part of my post was mostly responding to the guy who said "Oh come on stop demonising YoDa. Why do you think he did it in the first place? Imagine living on the bread crums progamers in korea do"
And to say he's a kid it a little bit weird. Sure he's no hardened criminal and should hardly be lynched for what can easily be constructed as a dumb mistake of youthful ignorance, but MC speaks of him as this kid he took under his wing. YoDa is no longer this kid. He's 22. That's the age at which by ANY standard, youthful ignorance is no longer an excuse to hide behind. At 22, barring mental illness, you make your own decisions, you're your own man.
And so why shouldn't we demonize him, because he's broke? Poor South Korean progamer, living on bread crums... Yeah whatever.
On October 19 2015 21:43 nimdil wrote: I don't want to take anything from how MC is feeling but saying that progamer should earn money from winning is not exactly the most convincing argument when coming from a guy who won the biggest piece of c$ke in SC2.
yeah but just because it's hard to make money doing something that doesn't mean you're entitled to more. if your business is not marketable and you fall into those who don't make a lot of money/can't make a living easily on it then maybe it's not the right business for you. i could be the best poop juggler in the world, but if no one wants to pay to see me juggle poop i can't complain that i'm not making a living wage, i need to find another line of work. so it shouldn't really matter whether MC is one of the lucky few because what he's saying is correct
On October 19 2015 23:09 Djzapz wrote: If anyone ever needed a reminder that money corrupts... they'll lie to their closest friend to make a buck. They'll lie to their fans, even if they know of the consequences. That's how bad people want the dough.
It's more like that once you've started there's not an easy way out. Yoda could've hardly come out and confessed to MC without risking MC turning him in. That also shows in that Yoda got payed for fixing his first 2 matches but was blackmailed into fixing the last 2. Once you're in over your head with illegal activities the slope gets really steep and slippery quite quickly.
I think the bit about how he said it wasn't true with "tears in his eyes" struck me as particularly fucking deceitful. I don't understand why we shouldn't be very critical of that considering that YoDa's not the first person to have gone through hardship and we're usually not too incline to defend people who justify their shitty actions on their alleged poverty. South Korea's not exactly a bastion of hard life... well at least not until you fuck yourself over by doing something that's viewed as particularly egregious by the local culture, like gambling.
I don't particularly care tbh, I don't follow the scene much, but I mean the "kid" burned himself and fucked people along the way. Sucks for MC. Hopefully he gets his shit together.
Also, I want to say, if anyone ever feels like SC2 is no longer to be taken seriously, remember how people defend with relative consistency the anticompetitive actions of the players. I'm not talking about you, Thax, I'm talking in general. It seems to me like there isn't much that takes away from the sport more than the idea that competition is rigged and one player may not be playing to the maximum of their ability because of match fixing. What benefit could there possibly be in taking these things lightly?
You're absolutely right. I wasn't defending Yoda. He messed it up himself. He lied to people and hurt people who trusted him. And those people have every right to be angry at him, his close friends and distant fans alike.
My comment was about that, unlike the organizers of the betting ring, Yoda is more a dumb kid down on his luck who got pulled in over his head by his coach and other shady figures, rather than a professional criminal cheating and extorting for a living. None of that means he shouldn't face the legal and professional consequences of his actions of course.
To be fair the 2nd part of my post was mostly responding to the guy who said "Oh come on stop demonising YoDa. Why do you think he did it in the first place? Imagine living on the bread crums progamers in korea do"
And to say he's a kid it a little bit weird. Sure he's no hardened criminal and should hardly be lynched for what can easily be constructed as a dumb mistake of youthful ignorance, but MC speaks of him as this kid he took under his wing. YoDa is no longer this kid. He's 22. That's the age at which by ANY standard, youthful ignorance is no longer an excuse to hide behind. At 22, barring mental illness, you make your own decisions, you're your own man.
And so why shouldn't we demonize him, because he's broke? Poor South Korean progamer, living on bread crums... Yeah whatever.
i dunno how old you are, but i've known many many many people who were still mired in the ignorance of youth at 22. 16, 18, 19, 21, these are arbitrary numbers governments make up to categorize "adulthood" or "maturity" legally. they don't actually mean anything. maybe your brain and body stop developing in your 20s, but life experience is equally important (if not more so) as physical development when it comes to considering someone a mature individual, and there is absolutely no majority of common sense among 22-year-olds that i've noticed. in fact, people in their early 20s are pretty fucking dumb and doe-eyed
not saying absolve yoda totally or trying to white knight him, but yes i do think there's something to saying someone is a "kid" at 22. maybe you'll be tried as an adult at 22, that's how the legal system works, but that doesn't make you in any way the emotional equal of someone who's even just several years older than you
A true progamer should earn a monthly salary reflecting their hard work (like every other proffessional athlete or people with regular jobs) and not have to worry about placing top 3 in every tournament he attends in order to have a sustainable income. It's easy for MC to spill these words having basically financed his career by placing top2 in tournaments. Match-fixing is god awful but people can do awful things when put in desperate situations trying to hold onto doing what they love.
Not saying this is the case with YoDa, maybe it was out of pure greed, maybe it was out of desperation, who knows. Point is we don't know the whole story yet. So don't be too quick to condemn and judge YoDa even though he looks bad right now.
Sad story, i liked YoDa as a player, he might been pressured to lie about it if anyone asked. Also money can make a lot to a humans, not only good things. Well we dont know and we will probably never get to know.
i dunno how old you are, but i've known many many many people who were still mired in the ignorance of youth at 22. 16, 18, 19, 21, these are arbitrary numbers governments make up to categorize "adulthood" or "maturity" legally. they don't actually mean anything. maybe your brain and body stop developing in your 20s, but life experience is equally important (if not more so) as physical development when it comes to considering someone a mature individual, and there is absolutely no majority of common sense among 22-year-olds that i've noticed. in fact, people in their early 20s are pretty fucking dumb and doe-eyed
not saying absolve yoda totally or trying to white knight him, but yes i do think there's something to saying someone is a "kid" at 22. maybe you'll be tried as an adult at 22, that's how the legal system works, but that doesn't make you in any way the emotional equal of someone who's even just several years older than you
As a side note there's been a recent thing suggesting that you're actually still developing until about the age of 25 or 26. So in effect you're not even 'properly mature' until then. And then the whole "life experience" thing comes into it.
On October 20 2015 01:17 brickrd wrote: i dunno how old you are, but i've known many many many people who were still mired in the ignorance of youth at 22. 16, 18, 19, 21, these are arbitrary numbers governments make up to categorize "adulthood" or "maturity" legally. they don't actually mean anything. maybe your brain and body stop developing in your 20s, but life experience is equally important (if not more so) as physical development when it comes to considering someone a mature individual, and there is absolutely no majority of common sense among 22-year-olds that i've noticed. in fact, people in their early 20s are pretty fucking dumb and doe-eyed
not saying absolve yoda totally or trying to white knight him, but yes i do think there's something to saying someone is a "kid" at 22. maybe you'll be tried as an adult at 22, that's how the legal system works, but that doesn't make you in any way the emotional equal of someone who's even just several years older than you
I'm 26, and while the numbers are picked arbitrarily by government, I didn't mean I think 22 is an age that I selected in reference to the age of adulthood of 18. It's just an age where I personally believe that you should be held responsible for your actions, even though you might still "mire in the ignorance of youth". People are quick to call YoDa a kid when he really wasn't a kid anymore and you seem to agree, I don't. I know that when I was 22 I was dumb in many ways (and still am) but I just don't buy the "kid" argument, which frankly is nothing more than an excuse to try to diminish the blame on him.
No, at 22 you don't get to pull that off anymore. 18-19, fine, maybe. But not 22. I don't buy it. And it's not just brain development or whatever, at that age your brain development, however incomplete, is perfectly capable of reasoning these things out.
On October 20 2015 03:11 masterrn wrote: the thing is, SC2 isn't winnable. the esports eco is not vibrant enough. do these things happen in LoL or DOTA2?
Solo and RoX.KIS in DOTA2.
Guy got caught betting on the other team in a game which he then threw.
On October 19 2015 23:09 Djzapz wrote: If anyone ever needed a reminder that money corrupts... they'll lie to their closest friend to make a buck. They'll lie to their fans, even if they know of the consequences. That's how bad people want the dough.
It's more like that once you've started there's not an easy way out. Yoda could've hardly come out and confessed to MC without risking MC turning him in. That also shows in that Yoda got payed for fixing his first 2 matches but was blackmailed into fixing the last 2. Once you're in over your head with illegal activities the slope gets really steep and slippery quite quickly.
I think the bit about how he said it wasn't true with "tears in his eyes" struck me as particularly fucking deceitful. I don't understand why we shouldn't be very critical of that considering that YoDa's not the first person to have gone through hardship and we're usually not too incline to defend people who justify their shitty actions on their alleged poverty. South Korea's not exactly a bastion of hard life... well at least not until you fuck yourself over by doing something that's viewed as particularly egregious by the local culture, like match fixing.
I don't particularly care tbh, I don't follow the scene much, but I mean the "kid" burned himself and fucked people along the way. Sucks for MC. Hopefully YoDa gets his shit together.
Also, I want to say, if anyone ever feels like SC2 is no longer to be taken seriously, remember how people defend with relative consistency the anticompetitive actions of the players. I'm not talking about you, Thax, I'm talking in general. It seems to me like there isn't much that takes away from the sport more than the idea that competition is rigged and one player may not be playing to the maximum of their ability because of match fixing. What benefit could there possibly be in taking these things lightly?
Or maybe he was crying because he realized he got into a deep pile of shit and could not even tell his friend the truth, plus being ashamed of it. The good thing about all of this, Yoda is the perfect nickname for puns about the dark side.
It's good they caught Yoda.He can serve as an example. So does the coach ... I understand MC hurting and trying to distance himself from something like this .
Man .... I just realized I have been checking teamliquid site at least 15 times per week for the last 8 years, but in the last two or three weeks I have been avoiding opening the web browser to do that. Too many bad news in such a short period of time for me .... These are some trying times.
Lying when you get caught is a basic human thing. Most of us would do the same. I don't feel like blaming YoDa for this cause I like him a lot as a player and really it all boils down to money and having an opportunity to provide for your close ones. Progaming is a hard path to choose, especially on a platform like SC2 that has only been going downhill popularity-wise. They're kids, they can't make such decisions by themselves, it's the people behind the whole match-fixing idea that should be focused on.
On October 20 2015 03:11 masterrn wrote: the thing is, SC2 isn't winnable. the esports eco is not vibrant enough. do these things happen in LoL or DOTA2?
Since both LoL and Dota 2 are team games and isn't too reliant on one person determining the final result, it isn't as prevalent but there have been cases in the past for both games.
With Dota 2's new major series which aims to spread out the prize money to more teams, the chances of matchfixing has been lowered.
In League of Legends, a Korean pro player attempted suicide by jumping off a building when their team manager forced them to intentionally lose games.
On October 20 2015 03:11 masterrn wrote: the thing is, SC2 isn't winnable. the esports eco is not vibrant enough. do these things happen in LoL or DOTA2?
Solo and RoX.KIS in DOTA2.
Guy got caught betting on the other team in a game which he then threw.
I actually had a dream pretty and a very long one at that. But I was the one with tears in my eyes and was trying to convince all Pro-gamers, Houses Kespa and Coaches, everything! Cant really remember more of the dream but I was heartbroken. When I woke up I instantly watched TL and saw it was true I had a very small hope when I woke up
(I always dream every single night, i mean we all do but I always remember them
This is like the WoL story - Raynor gave Tychus and his suit a place to stay (Hyperion / Germany) and in the end he finds out he sided with darkness (Arcturus / Mobius Gerrard Foundation / Throwing Games).
On October 22 2015 10:34 masterrn wrote: Okay I get it.
So MC is Jim Raynor Yoda is Tychus Findley.
This is like the WoL story - Raynor gave Tychus and his suit a place to stay (Hyperion / Germany) and in the end he finds out he sided with darkness (Arcturus / Mobius Gerrard Foundation / Throwing Games).
On October 22 2015 10:49 MiniFotToss wrote: I'd like to bet that, at this point, more people are angry at Yoda FOR LYING TO MC, than for what he actually did.
To be fair I'm pretty mad that he lied to MC. I mean come on...who does that?
On October 19 2015 13:32 Waxangel wrote: After that, before the news stories came out, I heard from colleagues around me that he had been taken to the police station.
Korea is really e-sports country where you get taken to the police station for match-fixing.
On October 19 2015 13:32 Waxangel wrote: After that, before the news stories came out, I heard from colleagues around me that he had been taken to the police station.
Korea is really e-sports country where you get taken to the police station for match-fixing.
Pretty sure they got taken to the police for being involved in gambling, which is illegal in Korea, not particularly because of the matchfixing itself. More specifically they're profiting from the proceeds of illegal gambling through being paid to matchfix. It just so happens that the matchfixing was why they got caught up in it all and caught out, and why they're being banned.
Damn. This is hard to read x.x I've always had a huge amount of respect for MC; it somehow managed to increase even more. Makes me even more disappointed with Yoda
Jesus christ, this feels really bad to read.But, Yoda is a young man, I believe he can redeem himself still. I hope things can somehow work out in the end and that they can come to terms and remain friends despite this shitfest.
EPT
), and even the guy that won probably doesn't feel like he won, but more the other guy threw. Mal-adaptive strategy.
