On June 30 2015 13:31 caznitch wrote:
I'll bite:

I like that Artosis compared the strategic beauty of sc2 with the beauty of sc1 micro (muta, vulture and reaver were explicitly mentioned). The only thing I'd add is that there is no reason sc2 can't incorporate better micro ala sc1 (Depth of Micro by Lalush). Sorry for harping on this again but I can't see why this can't be added.

I agree with this guy. SC1 and SC2 are both beautiful games in their own respect but if SC2 incorporated the depth of micro that SC1 had I think everyone would be in for one hell of a game. Still great games regardless, though.

BeStFAN

483 Posts

July 01 2015 01:49 GMT

#365

star1 player with relative lower skills who has financial success in star2 as caster

there is clear bias... and clear ignorance...

star2 is game where strategy is only big army fight and winning big army fight.
star1 is game where strategy revolves around territory and map

artosis is nerb

BeStFAN

483 Posts

July 01 2015 01:51 GMT

#366

i cannot understand how a star1 player can only cite micro example in star1 and ignore so much else...

goal and tactics/build for that goal is very dynamic in star1 depending on map. star2 is always the same, you either cheese or you play strategy for big army...

Loanshark

China3094 Posts

July 01 2015 01:54 GMT

#367

S E L L O U T B O Y S

writer22816

United States5775 Posts

July 01 2015 02:01 GMT

#368

Disagree completely, but then again I disagree with a lot of Artosis's opinions, like the thread where he and Idra argued that Really was a "better player" than Leta just because he played a macro style despite losing a hell of a lot more and never accomplishing nearly as much.

Cele

Germany4016 Posts

July 01 2015 02:38 GMT

#369

On July 01 2015 09:42 BisuDagger wrote:
WhiteRa is only known for special tactics in SC2. SC2 has more tactics then BW. Done.

he is known for "special tactics" in his BW games in the first place.

Subversive

Australia2229 Posts

July 01 2015 03:14 GMT

#370

On July 01 2015 03:52 SixStrings wrote:
Pro-Gamers like Flash, Jaedong and Artosis expanded the boundaries of what was previously thought impossible for human beings. Physically and mentally.

They transcended the status of mere humans and proved time and time again, in OSL, MSL and WCG USA East Qualifier 5, that the frontier of the human mind was more expandable than you and I could even fathom.

Hahahahaha. So good. Best thing I've read in the thread.

On July 01 2015 11:01 writer22816 wrote:
Disagree completely, but then again I disagree with a lot of Artosis's opinions, like the thread where he and Idra argued that Really was a "better player" than Leta just because he played a macro style despite losing a hell of a lot more and never accomplishing nearly as much.

Yeah I remember his hyping of Really. It was nice, and the guy certainly had a lot of talent, but like a lot of Artosis' picks he never really made it. Artosis seems to be incredibly blind to his own bias.

Subversive

Australia2229 Posts

July 01 2015 03:36 GMT

#371

This argument is the best. It accurately describes the relationship between SC2 and BW, and highlights that when top players have similar mechanical skill, it's impossible to declare that one game has more strategic depth than the other.

This can only be void (and Artosis right) if we conclude that top BW players only won through superior mechanics and that therefore Jaedong and Bisu were simple inferior to Flash in this respect. And that each successive champ simply had better and better mechanics than all previous ones. A pretty sad argument.

On July 01 2015 06:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
In sc2 there was a kid named Maru who played with his aggressive drop style vs phoenix+colossus.
He fought vs a style countering his, but in the end it didn't even matter.

Point is: In both sc2 and bw strategy being THE deciding factor (and in almost any other game/sports) starts being the case when both players/teams are close to each other in mechanical skill.

The question now is if at the top lvl (let's say top 30 players, arbitrarily) the mechanical skill differences between the players are comparable between the games (maybe we have to neglect the absolute top players here).
If it is somewhat comparable it's very hard to say that one game is more reliant on strategy than the other. (relatively to mechanics)
If we talk about strategic depth of each game this former part doesn't matter at all. (and i have no idea which game might have the edge here)
Probably the game which gives you more 'viable' actions/decisions for each situation.

United States2898 Posts

July 01 2015 03:43 GMT

#372

On June 30 2015 15:13 SuperFanBoy wrote:
Sc2 is harder and more strategic than Sc1.

That is why MVP goes down as the greatest Starcraft player ever.

Don't think SC2 is harder than SC1 and don't put MVP as the greatest Starcraft player ever. Wouldn't even put him in the top 3.

Yiome

China1687 Posts

July 01 2015 03:48 GMT

#373

the first page filled with TL writers and mods

Anyway I kinda of agree with Artosis. And I do remember reading something similar (from Day9 irrc) about this on TL.

Joedaddy

United States1948 Posts

July 01 2015 04:04 GMT

#374

best thread TL has seen in a while. Well played Wax.

and im very sad that rek's post got edited T.T;;; the old TL would have left it for at least a few days.

Falling

Canada11343 Posts

July 01 2015 05:02 GMT

#375

It's unfortunate, but old TL was not getting harangued by Google's crawlers.

phodacbiet

United States1740 Posts

July 01 2015 05:02 GMT

#376

On July 01 2015 10:39 Jaedrik wrote:

Show nested quote +

Artosis baited us masterfully :D

Yeah, Artosis is a master baiter.

JieXian

Malaysia4677 Posts

July 01 2015 05:31 GMT

#377

On July 01 2015 14:02 Falling wrote:
It's unfortunate, but old TL was not getting harangued by Google's crawlers.

You telling me Google's new crawlers are more strategic than Google's old crawlers????

Destructicon

4713 Posts

July 01 2015 05:55 GMT

#378

I think you people need to remember that Artosis is being paid now a days to cast SC2, not BW. Look back to the time when we had BL/Infestor, GomTvT or Blink Era, he rarely if at all talked about the state of balance and I doubt he'll say anything bad overall about SC2 until he transitions to a different game.