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On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
funny how you consider all ins only from the P/T pov. This map pool just forces you to all in and it's the same for every race, backdoors and abusable spots everywhere. Marines can't even kill lings attacking the rocks on bridgehead lol.
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On July 01 2015 05:20 Musicus wrote:
Hm I just played zerg on Terraform and kinda like it :/.
you're not allowed to have opinions that differ from the public's
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On July 01 2015 05:35 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 05:20 Musicus wrote:
Hm I just played zerg on Terraform and kinda like it :/. you're not allowed to have opinions that differ from the public's
I'm sorry, I hate it and all the other maps too and Blizzard and the TLMC!
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Theese maps are terribly hard for the protoss meta we had.
Jesus god, please let blizzard realize what they have done and fix it.
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So if every race is complaining that all of the 4 maps are very imbalanced against their race, does it mean they are balanced? Or just bad?
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Keep getting TvT on Bridgehead and well, at least that's fun. Literally the only thing I've gotten so far except someone on Dash & Terminal insta leaving.
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On July 01 2015 05:20 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it. funny how you consider all ins only from the P/T pov. This map pool just forces you to all in and it's the same for every race, backdoors and abusable spots everywhere. Marines can't even kill lings attacking the rocks on bridgehead lol.
I'm writing this merely from a Zerg POV, I'm sure that these maps are going to also make Protoss all ins alot more common, the maps look almost designed for them to me.
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I think people need to adjust their game play a bit to fit the maps. Do not give up so easily. Its been a day.
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On July 01 2015 07:02 PhiliBiRD wrote:
I think people need to adjust their game play a bit to fit the maps. Do not give up so easily. Its been a day.
I think people just need to go play starbow.
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I think this mappool's balance goes like this : Z > T, P > Z, T > P
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Ridiculous maps, you can't even wall PvZ on some of them.. so zergs can go 14gas 14 pool and deny your 3rd just like in Wings of Liberty (they can even go hatch gas pool and do the same)... 3 gateway sentry expand all over again? ...
edit: i gues u can ffe on terraform
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god awful for competitive matches and for pros, great for viewers.
Guess I will be just vetoing all new maps and hoping i don't roll any by off-chance.
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On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
Funny cause I have for the moment a totally different feeling :
-Dash and terminal : still looking for a reason to not go mass speedling every game, for the natural is impossible to wall off in time. I'm actually very curious to see how will skilled protosses (I suck at P) will play this. The drop distance is roughly the same than on habitation station and it was totally manageable.
Last, Gangnam terran is doable but not as potent as on habitation, because the gold is impossible to wall off.
Good zerg should easily find a way to play this map imho. Protoss and terrans though...
- Bridgehead : very nice for zergs, P may prefer to 2 base all in for the moment, for Terrans, I'm trying to figure a way to kill the rocks fast enough to get the third that is next to the pocket natural, because really if you take the third on the low ground, ling runbyes combined with muta harass is a pita to deal with (the time it takes to move from the lowground third to the pocket natural, omg!)
-Terraform : it's totally standard really, My personnal opinion is the center misses some good place to engage, but that's just me, nobody seems to like maps where battles happen in the center anymore. Creep is easy to spread, you have runby paths, muta harass is strong, and you can always find a way to flank, overall nothing is reallly bad for zerg.
-Moonlight madness : I think it's a hard map for every race, and I have hard time finind the best way to play on it. The "pocket 3rd" gives a false feeling of security and it's easy for zerg to go and snipe it. As T, I'm almost thinking of killing the rock on the back door to close the main and then take the other third, even if it's far away, it may end up being easier to defend. Anyway, I think it's the map that'll require the most thinking from players, but it shouldn't be unplayable, and Zergs shouldn't have the hardest time to figure it out.
Voila, opinions, tastes, as usual we'll only know what to think when we see Korean plays the maps and show us the way :D
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On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
Community: BLIZZARD NEVER LISTENS TO US!!!
Community: WE WANT MORE HARASS LESS DEATHBALLS!!
* Blizzard takes community maps that promotes harass *
Community: THE MAPS ARE CRAP!!
If I were blizzard, I'd just lol, close shop and move into agriculture or something that doesn't have to deal with online communities. 
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Lots of disapproval.
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While naturals usually have one wide ramp, D&T has two wide entrances and a third, small one, in the back.
It just screams ling runby to me. How many walls and FFs do you need to stop it? As many as there are lings?
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The maps were made this way for LOTV most likely, so I wouldn't get so upset. LOTV Ladder will be announced soon then everything / everyone will be moving to LOTV Beta. So don't be mad, be happy!
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On July 01 2015 18:00 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it. Community: BLIZZARD NEVER LISTENS TO US!!! Community: WE WANT MORE HARASS LESS DEATHBALLS!! * Blizzard takes community maps that promotes harass * Community: THE MAPS ARE CRAP!! If I were blizzard, I'd just lol, close shop and move into agriculture or something that doesn't have to deal with online communities.
this would be a valid point IF people said the maps were causing the deathballs, which they arent. its the economy and the movement as well as the race design (protoss).
ontopic: what the crap is up with the destructible rocks + sightblockers, the unreachable highgrounds made for tankdrops and last but not least, freaking dash and terminal? while these maps might be fun for viewers they sure as hell arent fun for people who arent trying to cheese/isnt terran on ladder.
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On July 01 2015 19:12 GGzerG wrote:
The maps were made this way for LOTV most likely, so I wouldn't get so upset. LOTV Ladder will be announced soon then everything / everyone will be moving to LOTV Beta. So don't be mad, be happy!
Most pro have 1 season of WCS and a lot of week end tournaments to attend, there won't be a massive switch anytime soon. And the maps were clearly made for HotS since the TL map contest was for HotS so I'd like a source for your baseless assertions.
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On July 01 2015 18:17 Salteador Neo wrote:While naturals usually have one wide ramp, D&T has two wide entrances and a third, small one, in the back. It just screams ling runby to me. How many walls and FFs do you need to stop it? As many as there are lings?
one of the nat entrances is blocked by rocks, and the back entrance requires a grand total of 1 extra pylon/depot to wall. it's really not that big of a deal.
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EPT
