We’d like to provide an update on the upcoming Season 3 map pool. While we aren’t quite ready to publish the maps yet, we wanted to announce the 1v1 map pool as early as possible. Here are the details for next season’s map pool.
New Maps Terraform LE
Bridgehead LE
Dash and Terminal LE
Moonlight Madness LE
Returning Maps Coda LE Iron Fortress LE Cactus Valley LE
While the official versions of the new maps won’t be available in Custom Games until closer to the season roll, all of the new maps this season are from community map makers and versions of the maps currently exist online. With WCS Qualifiers on the horizon, we wanted to provide this information early so players looking to participate can practice on these community versions. We expect the official LE map versions that we’ll publish to differ slightly from the community versions, but we aren’t expecting significant differences and the community versions should be useful for early practice.
wow no vanii surprise, thought it was the next daybreak, overgrowth. wish they took iron fortress but ok whatever. also can all these maps be found on TL?
On June 18 2015 02:48 starslayer wrote: wow no vanii surprise, thought it was the next daybreak, overgrowth. wish they took iron fortress but ok whatever. also can all these maps be found on TL?
On June 18 2015 02:48 starslayer wrote: wow no vanii surprise, thought it was the next daybreak, overgrowth. wish they took iron fortress but ok whatever. also can all these maps be found on TL?
Oh yea forgot about that Thanks. Now that I've seen them again, Not a fan of dash and terminal and moonlight madness, but that being said played on them like once the others were fun really like bridgehead but was a while ago (lol a month). So will have to see how they are on ladder.
looking forward to tournament finals being decided by backdoor rock immortal allins. On ladder I can veto them but if I'd be a pro player i would feel really pissed.
Dash and Terminal awwww yiss. Not sure why Echo is being removed, Echo was great. Not overly happy with Iron Fortress staying either but at least Inferno Pools has finally been shown the door.
What the fuck? Wasn't Echo universally popular? Why the fuck would you remove that and keep fucking Iron Fortress which exactly 0 people thing is interesting.
On June 18 2015 03:37 Charoisaur wrote: why the Iron fortress hate? I really like that map, imo it's one of the best 4 player maps ever made.
I think if the map got a bit of retexture ( any good mapmaker would gladly make it i think ) , removed the graphic bugs due to a wrong copypaste , and implemented the gsl changes , it would be a top5 4players map ever.
On June 18 2015 03:37 Charoisaur wrote: why the Iron fortress hate? I really like that map, imo it's one of the best 4 player maps ever made.
I think if the map got a bit of retexture ( any good mapmaker would gladly make it i think ) , removed the graphic bugs due to a wrong copypaste , and implemented the gsl changes , it would be a top5 4players map ever.
Wait, I think I know a good mapmaker who did a retexturing (;
Worst map pool of all time. Seriously. Backdoors everywhere and Echo removal drive me mad.
We had extremely solid map pools for all the beginning of HotS. Recent map pools have been shittier and shittier, with that one being the absolute worst. Please bring back #dreampool, I'd rather play on Metalopolis.
WCS Season 3 Map Pool, featuring more backdoors than the last porn movie you watched.
Maps I like get removed, maps I don't wanna play on get added, they might aswell have dropped Cactus and Coda and kept Expedition Lost and Inferno Pools. Really not a fan of this pool.
Please tell me how Dash & Terminal and Moonlight Madness (that one especially) can even be considered suitable maps for competitive play.
Coda, Terraform and Bridgehead will definitely be in for me, though Bridgehead's backdoor is really retarded. The sight blockers are very bad for P since Z and T won't care about it with medivacs/overlords while P cannons behind the sight blockers won't do shit. I have no idea how I can play a fourth map. Probably do a gamble and keep Moonlight Madness, hoping everyone with a brain vetoes it and all-inning the others.
EDIT : I take back that Dash & Terminal is unplayable, the debris appear to make it OKish I guess. It's really, really ugly on low settings though. Feels like playing on white nougat.
On June 18 2015 04:27 Superouman wrote: What should be noted is that the entire map pool is entirely made of community maps.
We can't bash blizz maps anymore
Seeing that map pool makes me which the additions were Derelict Watcher, Neokirk Precinct and Akilon Wastes. OK, I admit I look forward to playing Terraform, but the other ones are pretty terrible.
On June 18 2015 04:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: OK. Just launched some games vs AI on the maps.
Please tell me how Dash & Terminal and Moonlight Madness (that one especially) can even be considered suitable maps for competitive play.
Coda, Terraform and Bridgehead will definitely be in for me, though Bridgehead's backdoor is really retarded. The sight blockers are very bad for P since Z and T won't care about it with medivacs/overlords while P cannons behind the sight blockers won't do shit. I have no idea how I can play a fourth map. Probably do a gamble and keep Moonlight Madness, hoping everyone with a brain vetoes it and all-inning the others.
EDIT : I take back that Dash & Terminal is unplayable, the debris appear to make it OKish I guess. It's really, really ugly on low settings though. Feels like playing on white nougat.
On June 18 2015 04:27 Superouman wrote: What should be noted is that the entire map pool is entirely made of community maps.
We can't bash blizz maps anymore
Seeing that map pool makes me which the additions were Derelict Watcher, Neokirk Precinct and Akilon Wastes. OK, I admit I look forward to playing Terraform, but the other ones are pretty terrible.
Akilon Waste? Really? And more importantly, Derelict Watcher? Are you... are you Zerg deep inside? d:
On June 18 2015 04:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: OK. Just launched some games vs AI on the maps.
Please tell me how Dash & Terminal and Moonlight Madness (that one especially) can even be considered suitable maps for competitive play.
Coda, Terraform and Bridgehead will definitely be in for me, though Bridgehead's backdoor is really retarded. The sight blockers are very bad for P since Z and T won't care about it with medivacs/overlords while P cannons behind the sight blockers won't do shit. I have no idea how I can play a fourth map. Probably do a gamble and keep Moonlight Madness, hoping everyone with a brain vetoes it and all-inning the others.
EDIT : I take back that Dash & Terminal is unplayable, the debris appear to make it OKish I guess. It's really, really ugly on low settings though. Feels like playing on white nougat.
On June 18 2015 04:27 Superouman wrote: What should be noted is that the entire map pool is entirely made of community maps.
We can't bash blizz maps anymore
Seeing that map pool makes me which the additions were Derelict Watcher, Neokirk Precinct and Akilon Wastes. OK, I admit I look forward to playing Terraform, but the other ones are pretty terrible.
Akilon Waste? Really? And more importantly, Derelict Watcher? Are you... are you Zerg deep inside? d:
Tell me you wouldn't prefer any HotS Blizzard map (Daedalus Point 1.0 not considered a map) to Moonlight Madness.
Terraform I can live with. Bridgehead maybe possibly, although the backdoor is just annoying. Same with Moonlight Madness although that one has other problems. But holy hell Dash and Terminal looks like a complete mess.
Blizzard only uses Blizzard designed maps -> People complain about the maps and demand community maps. Blizzard uses mostly community designed maps -> People complain about the maps.
On June 18 2015 04:41 Thax wrote: Blizzard only uses Blizzard designed maps -> People complain about the maps and demand community maps. Blizzard uses mostly community designed maps -> People complain about the maps.
maybe that's their strategy. choose the worst community maps possible so people want blizzard maps again instead of community maps.
On June 18 2015 04:41 Thax wrote: Blizzard only uses Blizzard designed maps -> People complain about the maps and demand community maps. Blizzard uses mostly community designed maps -> People complain about the maps.
TLMC yielded horrible maps this season, with backdoors and gimmicks everywhere. We're bashing the fact that Blizzard isn't able to choose the good community maps, and even worse removes an outstanding community one after one season. WTF ???? It's Foxtrot Labs all over again. Why do they hate you so much oh poor Uvantak ?
On June 18 2015 04:41 Thax wrote: Blizzard only uses Blizzard designed maps -> People complain about the maps and demand community maps. Blizzard uses mostly community designed maps -> People complain about the maps.
maybe that's their strategy. choose the worst community maps possible so people want blizzard maps again instead of community maps.
On June 18 2015 04:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: OK. Just launched some games vs AI on the maps.
Please tell me how Dash & Terminal and Moonlight Madness (that one especially) can even be considered suitable maps for competitive play.
Coda, Terraform and Bridgehead will definitely be in for me, though Bridgehead's backdoor is really retarded. The sight blockers are very bad for P since Z and T won't care about it with medivacs/overlords while P cannons behind the sight blockers won't do shit. I have no idea how I can play a fourth map. Probably do a gamble and keep Moonlight Madness, hoping everyone with a brain vetoes it and all-inning the others.
EDIT : I take back that Dash & Terminal is unplayable, the debris appear to make it OKish I guess. It's really, really ugly on low settings though. Feels like playing on white nougat.
On June 18 2015 04:27 Superouman wrote: What should be noted is that the entire map pool is entirely made of community maps.
We can't bash blizz maps anymore
Seeing that map pool makes me which the additions were Derelict Watcher, Neokirk Precinct and Akilon Wastes. OK, I admit I look forward to playing Terraform, but the other ones are pretty terrible.
Akilon Waste? Really? And more importantly, Derelict Watcher? Are you... are you Zerg deep inside? d:
Tell me you wouldn't prefer any HotS Blizzard map (Daedalus Point 1.0 not considered a map) to Moonlight Madness.
secret spring, inferno pools, alterzim, klontas mire
I'll drink champagne to celebrate the removal of Echo, the most boring and ugliest map ever made.
Vaani and Expedition lost were wacky and wierd but had plenty of excellent unusual pro games played on it, but the new map pool also has wierd and wacky maps
Overall not the map pool we need but definetly the map pool we deserve, we're the ones who made it after all
On June 18 2015 04:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: OK. Just launched some games vs AI on the maps.
Please tell me how Dash & Terminal and Moonlight Madness (that one especially) can even be considered suitable maps for competitive play.
Coda, Terraform and Bridgehead will definitely be in for me, though Bridgehead's backdoor is really retarded. The sight blockers are very bad for P since Z and T won't care about it with medivacs/overlords while P cannons behind the sight blockers won't do shit. I have no idea how I can play a fourth map. Probably do a gamble and keep Moonlight Madness, hoping everyone with a brain vetoes it and all-inning the others.
EDIT : I take back that Dash & Terminal is unplayable, the debris appear to make it OKish I guess. It's really, really ugly on low settings though. Feels like playing on white nougat.
On June 18 2015 04:27 Superouman wrote: What should be noted is that the entire map pool is entirely made of community maps.
We can't bash blizz maps anymore
Seeing that map pool makes me which the additions were Derelict Watcher, Neokirk Precinct and Akilon Wastes. OK, I admit I look forward to playing Terraform, but the other ones are pretty terrible.
Akilon Waste? Really? And more importantly, Derelict Watcher? Are you... are you Zerg deep inside? d:
Tell me you wouldn't prefer any HotS Blizzard map (Daedalus Point 1.0 not considered a map) to Moonlight Madness.
secret spring, inferno pools, alterzim
OK I take back what I said, Blizzard made dreadful maps too. Moonlight Madness is still unplayable though , trying to compare Moonlight Madness and Secret Spring is a bit like trying to tell what tastes better between shit and vomit.
What saddens me beyond words is how many good maps there are and how accurate Blizzard are to always pick the worst. Well, in that case, I don't know who chose the finalists in TLMC6, but that guy really messed up and will bear the burden of that map pool forever.
On June 18 2015 04:46 Gwavajuice wrote: I'll drink champagne to celebrate the removal of Echo, the most boring and ugliest map ever made.
You cannot be serious ? I can understand the boring part, it's definitely very standard... But ugly ? Have you played Dash and Terminal ?
On June 18 2015 04:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: OK. Just launched some games vs AI on the maps.
Please tell me how Dash & Terminal and Moonlight Madness (that one especially) can even be considered suitable maps for competitive play.
Coda, Terraform and Bridgehead will definitely be in for me, though Bridgehead's backdoor is really retarded. The sight blockers are very bad for P since Z and T won't care about it with medivacs/overlords while P cannons behind the sight blockers won't do shit. I have no idea how I can play a fourth map. Probably do a gamble and keep Moonlight Madness, hoping everyone with a brain vetoes it and all-inning the others.
EDIT : I take back that Dash & Terminal is unplayable, the debris appear to make it OKish I guess. It's really, really ugly on low settings though. Feels like playing on white nougat.
On June 18 2015 04:27 Superouman wrote: What should be noted is that the entire map pool is entirely made of community maps.
We can't bash blizz maps anymore
Seeing that map pool makes me which the additions were Derelict Watcher, Neokirk Precinct and Akilon Wastes. OK, I admit I look forward to playing Terraform, but the other ones are pretty terrible.
Akilon Waste? Really? And more importantly, Derelict Watcher? Are you... are you Zerg deep inside? d:
Tell me you wouldn't prefer any HotS Blizzard map (Daedalus Point 1.0 not considered a map) to Moonlight Madness.
secret spring, inferno pools, alterzim
OK I take back what I said, Blizzard made dreadful maps too. Moonlight Madness is still unplayable though , trying to compare Moonlight Madness and Secret Spring is a bit like trying to tell what tastes better between shit and vomit.
What saddens me beyond words is how many good maps there are and how accurate Blizzard are to always pick the worst. Well, in that case, I don't know who chose the finalists in TLMC6, but that guy really messed up and will bear the burden of that map pool forever.
You don't understand, they've recreated the dream pool without using any of the maps from the original.
On June 18 2015 04:46 [PkF] Wire wrote: OK I take back what I said, Blizzard made dreadful maps too. Moonlight Madness is still unplayable though , trying to compare Moonlight Madness and Secret Spring is a bit like trying to tell what tastes better between shit and vomit.
Why do you hate Moonlight so much? I'd generally like to know as I am the creator of it. You keep saying how awful and unplayable it is but give no context what so ever. I got enough hate feedback from Habitation Station so feel free to speak your mind, I can take it, I'd love to hear the thoughts!
On June 18 2015 04:46 [PkF] Wire wrote: OK I take back what I said, Blizzard made dreadful maps too. Moonlight Madness is still unplayable though , trying to compare Moonlight Madness and Secret Spring is a bit like trying to tell what tastes better between shit and vomit.
Why do you hate Moonlight so much? I'd generally like to know as I am the creator of it. You keep saying how awful and unplayable it is but give no context what so ever. I got enough hate feedback from Habitation Station so feel free to speak your mind, I can take it, I'd love to hear the thoughts!
I'm no mapmaking specialist and while I can see you tried to achieve something interesting and different here, I see absolutely zero way for Protoss to deal with the entrances to the third in early game and with the layout (open access to third and natural via ways that are really far apart). A competent T or Z player will always tear a P that tries to play a normal game apart ; even worse with a T since you can't wall a T on the natural. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I see it, a 10 times more difficult version of Expedition Lost that was already tricky. I'll know quick since I'll probably keep Coda/Terraform/Bridgehead and your map since Dash & Terminal is so awful my eyes can't bear it.
If you've seen the map played in PvT/PvZ and think P can do well on the map while not playing only 2 base, I'm interested.
Fair enough! Actually all the changes to the map for TLMC were to help protoss as before those changes it was pretty heavily anti-protoss. Either way, hoping since every entrance to a possible third has ramps that between storms, ff & aoe that protoss stand a better chance. It does try to promote multi aggression & splitting your army up which yeah...usually doesn't help protoss out much at all.
It has changed quite a bit, between initial release into blizzard community spotlight into tlmc, so I'm hoping the constant changes help protoss out, but who really knows, only time can tell!
Yet another terrible map pooling decision from Blizzard. Getting sick and tired of them not making the effort to communicate to our pro players and the pro player players not getting any advice listened to. To have the arrogance to remove a map like Echo but keep a map like Iron Fortress is completely beyond me. And as for the new maps well...only map there that i see potential in in terraform and thats only because its different from the standardized maps that we see today, i have no idea if it will be good play on. But i think everyone in the starcraft community has now had enough of this. Consistently bad decision making and frustrating the community is just going way too far now. This nature of blizzard's approach of decision making and changes to maps/balance is just getting way too frustrating now and im sure i am not the only person in the community that feels this way.
imo backdoor rocks just don't belong in competitive maps. If a player harasses the main while trying to attack the third you need to stretch your army so far out to defend it, it just becomes hugely imbalanced in certain scenarios. We also saw the backdoor rocks abused in allins vs terran which is massively imbalanced because terran relies on bunkers to defend them and with backdoor rocks you have to make twice the amount of bunkers with scvs pulled on both entrances. I remember the game flash vs trap on expo lost from IEM katowice where trap just faked an immortal allin and flash had to make multiple bunkers on both entrances with scvs pulled. He realized relatively quickly that trap had only faked the allin but he already had so much invested in bunkers and lost so much mining time that he was massively behind. How blizzard can't see such obvious imbalance that promotes abusive and gimmicky strategies is beyond me, we already saw it sometimes that series get decided by map imbalance and this season it will probably be even worse.
Bridgehead looks like the perfect map for any other game than Starcraft 2, stuff like Medivacs and Oracles will just ruin the map. I'm really glad they're trying it out though, shows courage and they put in a LOT of the map competition maps.
The ones they kept of the old map are boring though, Expeditions Lost and Echo LE were really good maps.
congrats to all the mapmakers, i hope people actually try to first adapt to these experimental maps and attempt to develop map specific strategies before just immediately writing them off as "unplayable".
i'm especially interested to see how the small 2nd nat entrance on dash and terminal works, if it's balanced it could allow for some very interesting 3rd base placements.
Why are people being even remotely negative blizzard have taken bold steps this time, gone for all maps made by the community with the sole purpose of them pushing boundaries to see how far maps can be made for different balance/game design purposes. I hope the maps all pull through and lead to interesting games, thanks to all the mapmakers and I hope they keep up the community map trend!
On June 18 2015 06:01 Ovid wrote: Why are people being even remotely negative blizzard have taken bold steps this time, gone for all maps made by the community with the sole purpose of them pushing boundaries to see how far maps can be made for different balance/game design purposes. I hope the maps all pull through and lead to interesting games, thanks to all the mapmakers and I hope they keep up the community map trend!
The problem is that these maps are played in TOURNAMENTS with progamers making money from it. Testing how far you can go with mapdesign is good at all but not when careers are on the line. Maybe you thinks it's fun when tournaments get decided by map imbalance such as gold base strategys or backdoor rock allins but for anyone who cares about the pro scene it's just unfair and frustrating.
Blizzard looks like a bad pupil that tries his best to please his teacher but always gets the advice wrong.
We say "refresh the map pool more often, have more rotation" -> they remove Echo, keep Iron Fortress. We say "use community maps" and "keep the meta fresh with bold maps" -> they introduce a lot of gimmicky maps from TLMC6... 1 would have be OK, but Moonlight + Bridgehead + Dash is just too much (and BACKDOOOOOOORS).
I'm pretty sure everyone would have been very pleased with something more conservative, typically keeping Echo and removing IF or Cactus, adding only 2 of 3 of Moonlight / Bridgehead / Dash and adding a map not necessarily from TLMC6 aka backdoor contest (Emerald Plaza anyone ? Ganymede ? it's not like TLMC5 was years ago).
I'm happy Blizzard is willing to experiment, I'm happy 4 maps got changed, but I'm very disappointed by the lack of intelligence in the choices. And once again, getting rid of Echo so fast is a crime of lese-majesty, Uvantak should be used to it with how Foxtrot Labs got treated but man is that unfair.
On June 18 2015 07:22 JulDraGoN wrote: I like them, looks cool. At first glance I thought Bridgehead was that old Broodwar map Katarina but with backdoor rocks.
If the "small change" to Bridgehead could be a backdoor removal I guess most people wouldn't mind. I think we've had backdoors for a lifetime, not that we needed them anyway since I don't know, we should have learnt from Blistering Sands.
On June 18 2015 07:19 GreenMash wrote: Worst mappool in hots i think by far lol <.<
You know we had a season with Daedalus point (14 S1). Another season with Both Klontas Mire and Zerus Prime (13 S3). Not to mention the Blink era where most Terran complains but the map is somewhat reasonable.
On June 18 2015 07:22 JulDraGoN wrote: I like them, looks cool. At first glance I thought Bridgehead was that old Broodwar map Katarina but with backdoor rocks.
If the "small change" to Bridgehead could be a backdoor removal I guess most people wouldn't mind. I think we've had backdoors for a lifetime, not that we needed them anyway since I don't know, we should have learnt from Blistering Sands.
removing the backdoor rocks would be a very good change...
Come on guys removing the like of Echo is a good practice as everyone was so sure about it being another Overgrowth. While it's understandable to grieve over such good, solid map, theres nothing more about it than "good, solid" (I will miss the high saturated aesthetics too).
Now I only hope that tournament organizer will adopt the new pool punctually. Why MGR was still in SSl yesterday is way beyond me
On June 18 2015 03:18 Charoisaur wrote: looking forward to tournament finals being decided by backdoor rock immortal allins. On ladder I can veto them but if I'd be a pro player i would feel really pissed.
Distance too large in this case defenders path is much shorter. On the other hand how do you secure a nat vs zerg on terminal :D
On June 18 2015 03:18 Charoisaur wrote: looking forward to tournament finals being decided by backdoor rock immortal allins. On ladder I can veto them but if I'd be a pro player i would feel really pissed.
Distance too large in this case defenders path is much shorter. On the other hand how do you secure a nat vs zerg on terminal :D
Proxy robo + Warp in mechanic = Problem solved. It works on Expedition lost, even against Maru IIRC, so why it shouldn't work here?
From pictures I cannot tell much, so I will start properly bashing the maps once they are in.
Just from the first view - I am really curious how am I supposed to take natural in PvZ against a speedling opening on Terminal... looks a little bit like a veto to me. Moonlight madness looks like drops, drops everywhere in PvT - second veto(to the mapmaker - I much more like the maps where you cannot hide in the air around the main, see Bridgehead). And it's a little bit sad I have to ban a map because of 1 MU :/
Not sure how I feel about Terraform 3rd, it looks like with tanks behind minerals(on 3rd, the high ground base next to the natural base) you can shoot at natural mineral line and both gases, looks kinda bad, on the other hand this could be done on Overgrowth and I never lost to it in my wooden league, so why should I care(maybe I should care because on Overhrowth I wasn't attacking into high ground tanks :D).
I don't know what my 3rd veto will be, so far it looks like I won't use it, maybe Terraform because of the aforementioned tanks. Meta will decide.
So far I cannot decide if this looks good or bad, 4 new maps and I am thinking about vetoing 2 maps of them and considering even 3rd map.
On June 18 2015 07:19 GreenMash wrote: Worst mappool in hots i think by far lol <.<
You know we had a season with Daedalus point (14 S1). Another season with Both Klontas Mire and Zerus Prime (13 S3). Not to mention the Blink era where most Terran complains but the map is somewhat reasonable.
Eh. 2 bad maps are not that big of a deal. This pool has way more terrible maps then those you mentioned. Gonna be sad to play these vs zerg lol z.z
In my opinion the TLMC favourites/winners were not very good this time around. They push too hard to be interesting & different. So many backdoor rocks, chokes, weird layouts. For competition, keeping it basic and avoiding clear imbalances has been a proven concept =)
Favourite maps?
Overgrowth, King Sejong, Coda, Daybreak, Belshir vestige, etc.
On June 18 2015 07:22 JulDraGoN wrote: I like them, looks cool. At first glance I thought Bridgehead was that old Broodwar map Katarina but with backdoor rocks.
If the "small change" to Bridgehead could be a backdoor removal I guess most people wouldn't mind. I think we've had backdoors for a lifetime, not that we needed them anyway since I don't know, we should have learnt from Blistering Sands.
But removing the backdoor on Bridgehead would give us a map with an inbase nat...
erm, what? Echo gone and Iron stays? That's surprising.
So funny that we all were so desperate for new community maps and more changes in general (kind of). And now good maps are gone after 1 season. xd For casual ladder players that's good. I won't complain :-)
On June 18 2015 16:46 Liquid`Ret wrote: In my opinion the TLMC favourites/winners were not very good this time around. They push too hard to be interesting & different. So many backdoor rocks, chokes, weird layouts. For competition, keeping it basic and avoiding clear imbalances has been a proven concept =)
Favourite maps?
Overgrowth, King Sejong, Coda, Daybreak, Belshir vestige, etc.
That TLMC was intentionally done for experimental maps to give some diversity to the map pool. I know you would play Python 24/7/365 but making map-specific strategies is better and more interesting.
On June 18 2015 16:46 Liquid`Ret wrote: In my opinion the TLMC favourites/winners were not very good this time around. They push too hard to be interesting & different. So many backdoor rocks, chokes, weird layouts. For competition, keeping it basic and avoiding clear imbalances has been a proven concept =)
Favourite maps?
Overgrowth, King Sejong, Coda, Daybreak, Belshir vestige, etc.
That TLMC was intentionally done for experimental maps to give some diversity to the map pool. I know you would play Python 24/7/365 but making map-specific strategies is better and more interesting.
Yeah, everyone has different opinions.
I don't feel like Sc2 lends itself that well to map specific strategies. warpin pylons and forcefields kinda bypass any layout for example. And forcefields also make any maps with a ton of chokes really hard to play on. Most maps that are 'different' just end up being super annoying to play on and not well liked. Look at the past couple of map pools and which maps people enjoyed the most. And I'm also willing to bet they produced the better games too.
Theres a reason we're still watching GSL and SSL on super old maps, which even I'm getting tired of nowadays ^^ would love it if there were solid replacements and not gimmick maps.
On June 18 2015 18:42 Enekh wrote: WTF... my map;Ecosphere is ranked top3 but except season3 map pool. why?
Blizzard decides which makes to take despite their place in contests. I was pretty sure Ecosphere would make it as new 4p map but Blizzard thought different.
I'm still salty that Ganymede that was 2nd in previous TLMC didn't make it that season or the previous one.
On June 18 2015 17:43 Liquid`Ret wrote: Theres a reason we're still watching GSL and SSL on super old maps, which even I'm getting tired of nowadays ^^ would love it if there were solid replacements and not gimmick maps.
Because GSL is too conservative to switch Overgrowth/KSS/Deadwing for Coda/Echo/Cactus Valley after Code A for example? Proleague was pretty good with newer maps.
They also use Iron Fortress that many people in this thread call awful.
I dont know where is the problem but I think the main problem is rather at blizzard than in maps.
The colors aren't "eye friendly". Take sc:bw or wc3 pictures you will notice they have better/wonderful/simple colors. In sc2 the colors feel like they have fog over the colors everywhere.
Wholeheartedly agree with Ret that the TLMC was (probably because it came so quick after TLMC5) too much about gimmicks and being that unique snowflake map rather than creating solid and suited for competitive play maps. I'm not looking forward to seeing that map pool in WCS, especially in bo5 and more.
On June 18 2015 17:43 Liquid`Ret wrote: Theres a reason we're still watching GSL and SSL on super old maps, which even I'm getting tired of nowadays ^^ would love it if there were solid replacements and not gimmick maps.
Because GSL is too conservative to switch Overgrowth/KSS/Deadwing for Coda/Echo/Cactus Valley after Code A for example? Proleague was pretty good with newer maps.
They also use Iron Fortress that many people in this thread call awful.
I think GSL uses an updated version of Iron Fortress, which has addressed the hard to take 3rd base and hard engagements over there.
On June 18 2015 17:43 Liquid`Ret wrote: Theres a reason we're still watching GSL and SSL on super old maps, which even I'm getting tired of nowadays ^^ would love it if there were solid replacements and not gimmick maps.
Because GSL is too conservative to switch Overgrowth/KSS/Deadwing for Coda/Echo/Cactus Valley after Code A for example? Proleague was pretty good with newer maps.
They also use Iron Fortress that many people in this thread call awful.
I think GSL uses an updated version of Iron Fortress, which has addressed the hard to take 3rd base and hard engagements over there.
Yeah if they could use that version too that would be a great step in the direction of improving the map pool.
i bet if these were proleague maps everyone would love them and be praising their originality.
i also bet that if blizz rotated the map pool on a more regular basis then people wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with trying out more experimental ideas in maps...
On June 19 2015 00:45 [PkF] Wire wrote: Wholeheartedly agree with Ret that the TLMC was (probably because it came so quick after TLMC5) too much about gimmicks and being that unique snowflake map rather than creating solid and suited for competitive play maps. I'm not looking forward to seeing that map pool in WCS, especially in bo5 and more.
I'm not sure time was the factor, there were plenty of solid maps entered in TLMC6 (enough to make 1 or 2 good 7-maps map pool(s) imo). It's just that apparently originality was what the judges (and Blizzard) wanted this time.
On June 18 2015 17:43 Liquid`Ret wrote: Theres a reason we're still watching GSL and SSL on super old maps, which even I'm getting tired of nowadays ^^ would love it if there were solid replacements and not gimmick maps.
Because GSL is too conservative to switch Overgrowth/KSS/Deadwing for Coda/Echo/Cactus Valley after Code A for example? Proleague was pretty good with newer maps.
They also use Iron Fortress that many people in this thread call awful.
I think GSL uses an updated version of Iron Fortress, which has addressed the hard to take 3rd base and hard engagements over there.
Blizzard updating maps already in the map pool for a small update? That'd be a first.
On June 18 2015 18:42 Enekh wrote: WTF... my map;Ecosphere is ranked top3 but except season3 map pool. why?
Blizzard decides which makes to take despite their place in contests. I was pretty sure Ecosphere would make it as new 4p map but Blizzard thought different.
I'm still salty that Ganymede that was 2nd in previous TLMC didn't make it that season or the previous one.
You are right, Ganymede could easily replace on of the most likely imbalanced maps. Maybe if blizzard gets enaugh feedback from (pro-)players they change it. They changed mappools before based on community feedback. Ganymede for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/478863-2-ktv-ganymede
On June 18 2015 18:42 Enekh wrote: WTF... my map;Ecosphere is ranked top3 but except season3 map pool. why?
Blizzard decides which makes to take despite their place in contests. I was pretty sure Ecosphere would make it as new 4p map but Blizzard thought different.
I'm still salty that Ganymede that was 2nd in previous TLMC didn't make it that season or the previous one.
You are right, Ganymede could easily replace on of the most likely imbalanced maps. Maybe if blizzard gets enaugh feedback from (pro-)players they change it. They changed mappools before based on community feedback. Ganymede for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/478863-2-ktv-ganymede
you mean when everybody hated on secret spring and inferno pools and then they replaced foxtrot labs with overgrowth?
On June 18 2015 18:42 Enekh wrote: WTF... my map;Ecosphere is ranked top3 but except season3 map pool. why?
Blizzard decides which makes to take despite their place in contests. I was pretty sure Ecosphere would make it as new 4p map but Blizzard thought different.
I'm still salty that Ganymede that was 2nd in previous TLMC didn't make it that season or the previous one.
You are right, Ganymede could easily replace on of the most likely imbalanced maps. Maybe if blizzard gets enaugh feedback from (pro-)players they change it. They changed mappools before based on community feedback. Ganymede for reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/478863-2-ktv-ganymede
you mean when everybody hated on secret spring and inferno pools and then they replaced foxtrot labs with overgrowth?
Yeah I wouldn't count too much on Blizzard coming to their senses.
oh shit i just realize gangnam terran is back heheheh and didnt like moonlight at first because of back door but with all the rock i think you be fine, might even take 12 o'clock base as nat then 2 o'clock as third and so on might be the best map pool in a while but will need to see some ladder games. might start playing more again but wont get my hopes up.
On June 23 2015 18:14 jinjin5000 wrote: all maps have backdoor in them...
guess i will abstain for this season.
?????????? only one has backdoor and its got a bunch of rocks to delay attacks unless im missing something lol.Expedition Lost is gone and unless im seeing it wrong i dont think bridge head has a backdoor.
On June 23 2015 18:14 jinjin5000 wrote: all maps have backdoor in them...
guess i will abstain for this season.
?????????? only one has backdoor and its got a bunch of rocks to delay attacks unless im missing something lol.Expedition Lost is gone and unless im seeing it wrong i dont think bridge head has a backdoor.
look carefully on bridge head on the upper/lower part of respective bases
why on gods forsaken earth would they ever contemplate adding Ganymede, which looks standard, reliable and good, when they can add awkward looking maps with backdoor rocks and/or backdoor expansions and/or gold bases and/or multiple collapsable rocks
On June 26 2015 01:21 Aocowns wrote: why on gods forsaken earth would they ever contemplate adding Ganymede, which looks standard, reliable and good, when they can add awkward looking maps with backdoor rocks and/or backdoor expansions and/or gold bases and/or multiple collapsable rocks
I'm a bit torn about the responsibilities for this dreadful map pool (for me the worst we had since HotS began by a large margin). I'd say they are shared by Blizzard for choosing those maps and by the TLMC voters for bringing so many awkward/strange/"unique snowflake wannabes" maps in the spotlight.
On June 26 2015 01:21 Aocowns wrote: why on gods forsaken earth would they ever contemplate adding Ganymede, which looks standard, reliable and good, when they can add awkward looking maps with backdoor rocks and/or backdoor expansions and/or gold bases and/or multiple collapsable rocks
I'm a bit torn about the responsibilities for this dreadful map pool (for me the worst we had since HotS began by a large margin). I'd say they are shared by Blizzard for choosing those maps and by the TLMC voters for bringing so many awkward/strange/"unique snowflake wannabes" maps in the spotlight.
Anyway, we (players) are fucked as usual.
TL community had nothing to do with the maps, the vote decided who was the TLMC winner. Blizzard picked the finalists themselves and also picked the ladder maps themselves too.
On June 26 2015 01:21 Aocowns wrote: why on gods forsaken earth would they ever contemplate adding Ganymede, which looks standard, reliable and good, when they can add awkward looking maps with backdoor rocks and/or backdoor expansions and/or gold bases and/or multiple collapsable rocks
I'm a bit torn about the responsibilities for this dreadful map pool (for me the worst we had since HotS began by a large margin). I'd say they are shared by Blizzard for choosing those maps and by the TLMC voters for bringing so many awkward/strange/"unique snowflake wannabes" maps in the spotlight.
Anyway, we (players) are fucked as usual.
TL community had nothing to do with the maps, the vote decided who was the TLMC winner. Blizzard picked the finalists themselves and also picked the ladder maps themselves too.
You're right, seems Blizzard picked the finalists "in conjuction" with the TLMC judges... So yeah, mostly Blizzard's fault .
And I'm really surprised the harsh poll results don't at least make Blizzard react with some statement ("we want to promote atypical play", "good time to shake the meta", at least some bullshit trying to explain)...
Is there anyone that plays the game and actually likes backdoors? I don't like any of the new maps to be honest.Terraform would be interesting to try, though.
On June 26 2015 02:12 Bojas wrote: Is there anyone that plays the game and actually likes backdoors? I don't like any of the new maps to be honest.Terraform would be interesting to try, though.
To be honest, I wouldn't mind backdoors on one map in seven. If you enjoy it, no problem, otherwise you can veto. But this got ludicrous.
On June 25 2015 11:24 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Moonlight Madness = mass speedling all ins.....
I was looking forward to it until I remembered ZvZ is a match up
What would be so wrong with completely walling off your forward natural, then taking the backdoor third and expanding that way? Then if they do any early type of speedling build they either have to kill the wall at your front nat or kill one of the backdoor rocks (or two if you knock down your tower)
On June 25 2015 11:24 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Moonlight Madness = mass speedling all ins.....
I was looking forward to it until I remembered ZvZ is a match up
What would be so wrong with completely walling off your forward natural, then taking the backdoor third and expanding that way? Then if they do any early type of speedling build they either have to kill the wall at your front nat or kill one of the backdoor rocks (or two if you knock down your tower)
you're not going to be able to wall the natural before a speedling allin hits
On June 25 2015 11:24 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Moonlight Madness = mass speedling all ins.....
I was looking forward to it until I remembered ZvZ is a match up
What would be so wrong with completely walling off your forward natural, then taking the backdoor third and expanding that way? Then if they do any early type of speedling build they either have to kill the wall at your front nat or kill one of the backdoor rocks (or two if you knock down your tower)
you're not going to be able to wall the natural before a speedling allin hits
Insert any other map ever? To be fair the forward natural on this is smaller then most other naturals in the game, only 8x wide compared to most 9 or 10x. I guess they could run through your natural all the way into your main then through the backdoor, but now they are stuck in the backdoor because they can't get out without breaking down rocks, but now you can break down your rock tower for safety if needed.
Just would prefer people to play games on it first before calling certain strats imba. :\
omg wow just played a game on bridgehead, and that map went first to worst for me. At first I love the aesthetic of the map looks great but holy shit the rocks at the ramp to the main wtf really smh, and the rocks the to back why? Just wtf, would be fine if no rock to the nat but come on.
On June 26 2015 13:23 -NegativeZero- wrote: why do so many people hate backdoors in general? just wondering.
At least for me I'm not a fan of 2 entrances to your main or nat, it makes defending way more difficult and unnecessary then it should be. Take Expedition Lost you have to watch out for allin in 2 places in your main and are to an extent forced to take the base below your main for fear of back stabs. This is just me but I find it makes for silly unnecessary game play.
That being said I can kinda understand why its added because the same old maps (daybreak, overgrowth) can become very boring and lead to turtle game, and maps with backdoors make this very difficult. again this is just my opinion or how I feel about back doors. Others might have better reason but this is just me.
Oh boy this is the first ever WCS/ladder map pool I can get 100% behind. No obvious shit map that I hate. Really good mix between standard and interesting maps. Good mix between 2p and 4p, even have a 2p mirrored that is great~ Can't say much about balance mix and how aggressive vs passive maps work out. But overall it just looks super cool.
Also fuck this whiny community, I always hated you.
On June 26 2015 20:49 Ragoo wrote: Oh boy this is the first ever WCS/ladder map pool I can get 100% behind. No obvious shit map that I hate. Really good mix between standard and interesting maps. Good mix between 2p and 4p, even have a 2p mirrored that is great~ Can't say much about balance mix and how aggressive vs passive maps work out. But overall it just looks super cool.
Also fuck this whiny community, I always hated you.
... I'm speechless. I guess there's no accounting for taste.
On June 26 2015 20:49 Ragoo wrote: Can't say much about balance mix
On June 26 2015 20:49 Ragoo wrote: Can't say much about balance mix and how aggressive vs passive maps work out
Those are literally the most important things for maps used in the WCS tournaments.
What is your point? I still can't say anything about the balance until I see them played.
Which is why we need some way to see maps extensively played by pros before they're put in the WCS/ladder map pool.
Just one little problem. This has never happened and will never happen. How do you give pros incentive to "extensively play" maps that are not in wcs/ladder so basically irrelevant for them.
On June 26 2015 20:49 Ragoo wrote: Can't say much about balance mix and how aggressive vs passive maps work out
Those are literally the most important things for maps used in the WCS tournaments.
What is your point? I still can't say anything about the balance until I see them played.
Which is why we need some way to see maps extensively played by pros before they're put in the WCS/ladder map pool.
Just one little problem. This has never happened and will never happen. How do you give pros incentive to "extensively play" maps that are not in wcs/ladder so basically irrelevant for them.
I know, and thus it will always be an issue to put map with uncertain balance at the highest level of play, putting careers in danger. One of the ways would be to have a regular (monthly/bimonthly/weekly) tournament with decent prizepool and with a mappool made only of non-ladder maps. Another way, which would be way easier, would be to have non-WCS tournaments use one/two/three non-ladder map in their map pool. But a lot of tournament organizers are reluctant to do this, usually because it would upset the players. Guess what? O'Gaming already does that (they did in NationWars and still do in Underdogs - and I sure hope they'll do it should a new edition of NW or Iron Squid happen) and the world didn't explode, players didn't go on strike, everything went superfine and we got to see cool maps like Kamala Park in action.
Played some games on Terraform and the map seems terrible for zerg versus terran. The 3rd baseis hard to connect with creep, chokes everywhere, the 'special' bases are of course bad if you are on mostly melee units against ranged units leaving you with no good option for a 5th base. And last but not least the obligatory reaper staircase to make sure the zerg can not do more than one opener. But hey there are overlord spots around the map, so the mapmaker knows that zergs exists in sc2 or maybe it was just an accident. I really don't get how anyone could objectivly look at this map and think it's balanced.
On June 26 2015 20:49 Ragoo wrote: Can't say much about balance mix and how aggressive vs passive maps work out
Those are literally the most important things for maps used in the WCS tournaments.
Ragoo's standpoint is understandable from his perspective, they're interesting maps from a mapmaking point of view, but to play on and them being used in tournament is a whole different world, which is why I generaly disagree with Ragoo, and I really hope Blizzard splits the ladder from proffesional maps.
On June 26 2015 20:49 Ragoo wrote: Can't say much about balance mix and how aggressive vs passive maps work out
Those are literally the most important things for maps used in the WCS tournaments.
What is your point? I still can't say anything about the balance until I see them played.
it's very VERY possible to estimate the balance of a map when all its features have been used before, we know exactly how each of this individual features plays out in what scenarios, and with some effort it's realistic to make an educated gues on the balance of a map.
On June 26 2015 20:49 Ragoo wrote: Can't say much about balance mix and how aggressive vs passive maps work out
Those are literally the most important things for maps used in the WCS tournaments.
What is your point? I still can't say anything about the balance until I see them played.
Which is why we need some way to see maps extensively played by pros before they're put in the WCS/ladder map pool.
as Ragoo said, never happend and never will happen as long as ladder existants and it is the one and only form of practice/melee games in general.
On June 27 2015 04:28 zerge wrote: Played some games on Terraform and the map seems terrible for zerg versus terran. The 3rd baseis hard to connect with creep, chokes everywhere, the 'special' bases are of course bad if you are on mostly melee units against ranged units leaving you with no good option for a 5th base. And last but not least the obligatory reaper staircase to make sure the zerg can not do more than one opener. But hey there are overlord spots around the map, so the mapmacker knows that zergs exists in sc2 or maybe it was just an accident. I really don't get how anyone could objectivly look at this map and think it's balanced.
these are exactly the things I was expecting, and to me another reinforcing point on my previous statement of estimating map balance.
these maps were voted on during the TLMC, not for their ability to be solid well rounded ladder maps, but because they had features that the voters felt stood out more so than other maps... such as destructible rocks & backdoors & what not.
I'm glad Blizzard chose to go with community maps, however these maps imo don't really fulfill the criteria to be considered tournament or ladder-worthy maps. TLDR, should be a fun ladder season Kappa lol
On June 30 2015 05:43 billynasty wrote: these maps were voted on during the TLMC, not for their ability to be solid well rounded ladder maps, but because they had features that the voters felt stood out more so than other maps... such as destructible rocks & backdoors & what not.
I'm glad Blizzard chose to go with community maps, however these maps imo don't really fulfill the criteria to be considered tournament or ladder-worthy maps. TLDR, should be a fun ladder season Kappa lol
Two things to be noted : the maps that were finalists of the TLMC were not finalists because of votes but because of choice by TL Strat, and the maps that we have on ladder are not necessarily the maps that got the most votes in TLMC
idk how it would be possible but it seems every ladder season alot of people complain. What do you think if the community were given a group of say 10 to 15 maps to choose from & then over the course of a few weeks, we were allowed to all vote on which maps to play on & then those winners would be selected? Something like the Dreampool but for current maps.
It just seems to me that it would be nice if we had some input into the maps that we play, since we're the ones that have to play on them... yanno?
On June 30 2015 05:54 billynasty wrote: idk how it would be possible but it seems every ladder season alot of people complain. What do you think if the community were given a group of say 10 to 15 maps to choose from & then over the course of a few weeks, we were allowed to all vote on which maps to play on & then those winners would be selected? Something like the Dreampool but for current maps.
It just seems to me that it would be nice if we had some input into the maps that we play, since we're the ones that have to play on them... yanno?
I feel like they should get some dedicated pros to test the maps they intend to use and give them feedback. Because we play for fun, the pros play for a living. Some of these maps just seem unfit for tournament competition.
On June 30 2015 05:54 billynasty wrote: idk how it would be possible but it seems every ladder season alot of people complain. What do you think if the community were given a group of say 10 to 15 maps to choose from & then over the course of a few weeks, we were allowed to all vote on which maps to play on & then those winners would be selected? Something like the Dreampool but for current maps.
It just seems to me that it would be nice if we had some input into the maps that we play, since we're the ones that have to play on them... yanno?
I feel like they should get some dedicated pros to test the maps they intend to use and give them feedback. Because we play for fun, the pros play for a living. Some of these maps just seem unfit for tournament competition.
Agreed. That would be great. And even though we play for fun it is still nice to have BALANCE.
On June 30 2015 05:54 billynasty wrote: idk how it would be possible but it seems every ladder season alot of people complain. What do you think if the community were given a group of say 10 to 15 maps to choose from & then over the course of a few weeks, we were allowed to all vote on which maps to play on & then those winners would be selected? Something like the Dreampool but for current maps.
It just seems to me that it would be nice if we had some input into the maps that we play, since we're the ones that have to play on them... yanno?
I feel like they should get some dedicated pros to test the maps they intend to use and give them feedback. Because we play for fun, the pros play for a living. Some of these maps just seem unfit for tournament competition.
I dunno about that. Yes, maps should be thoroughly playtested by pros (ideally in non-WCS tournaments settings) to insure that there's no blatant imbalance/überabusable feature/bugs. But given how a vast majority of pros basically don't want to play on anything that's not 100% standard Pantanal clones, giving them too much influence on the map pool would basically mean having a constantly stale map pool.
On June 30 2015 05:54 billynasty wrote: idk how it would be possible but it seems every ladder season alot of people complain. What do you think if the community were given a group of say 10 to 15 maps to choose from & then over the course of a few weeks, we were allowed to all vote on which maps to play on & then those winners would be selected? Something like the Dreampool but for current maps.
It just seems to me that it would be nice if we had some input into the maps that we play, since we're the ones that have to play on them... yanno?
I feel like they should get some dedicated pros to test the maps they intend to use and give them feedback. Because we play for fun, the pros play for a living. Some of these maps just seem unfit for tournament competition.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/485798-tl-map-contest-6-results Pros did express their opinions on the 7 finalist maps, its just blizzard did not give a fuck about those opinions as the pros favorite is not even on the pool. Blizzard also for first time was part in choosing the 7finalist from all the entries, I dont know if that had anything to do with the results been less pleasing since ever.
On June 30 2015 05:54 billynasty wrote: idk how it would be possible but it seems every ladder season alot of people complain. What do you think if the community were given a group of say 10 to 15 maps to choose from & then over the course of a few weeks, we were allowed to all vote on which maps to play on & then those winners would be selected? Something like the Dreampool but for current maps.
It just seems to me that it would be nice if we had some input into the maps that we play, since we're the ones that have to play on them... yanno?
I feel like they should get some dedicated pros to test the maps they intend to use and give them feedback. Because we play for fun, the pros play for a living. Some of these maps just seem unfit for tournament competition.
I dunno about that. Yes, maps should be thoroughly playtested by pros (ideally in non-WCS tournaments settings) to insure that there's no blatant imbalance/überabusable feature/bugs. But given how a vast majority of pros basically don't want to play on anything that's not 100% standard Pantanal clones, giving them too much influence on the map pool would basically mean having a constantly stale map pool.
I agree that pros shouldn't have too much influence on the map design etc. as to have some variety, but tournaments like WCS or IEM are worth the effort of looking into balance aspects of the maps closely before deciding on the maps. By which I mean the balance on the highest level, not averaged ladder statistics or their Blizzard in-house stats.
from what i've seen so far on ladder these new maps are really awful for pvt since you get shit on by drops all over the place i think it will get better when protoss pros show us how they defend here but man i really liked echo for example, was a really well rounded map also fuck backdoor rocks
On June 30 2015 07:37 SharkStarcraft wrote: from what i've seen so far on ladder these new maps are really awful for pvt since you get shit on by drops all over the place i think it will get better when protoss pros show us how they defend here but man i really liked echo for example, was a really well rounded map also fuck backdoor rocks
Try getting Protoss all-inned on these maps. There are so many avenues for all ins that are so ridiculously hard to defend. These maps are just good for super aggressive play/all ins. You need static defense sometimes and having to set it up in multiple locations is a pretty big commitment.
Unfortunately i just cannot think of any other reason than Blizzard want everyone to stop playing HOTS and focus on LOTV after releasing this map pool. Worst map pool in a long time by far.
2 maps I just cannot play on... Moonlight and Terraform.
These maps are just a series of VERY narrow hallways. There is nowhere for zerg to catch an opponent and surround them. I remember a map much like these, RedCity. Try playing as Zerg against Terran or Protoss on these 3 maps. You just try it. You're going to be funneling all of your garbage down narrow hallways against colossus, storms, bio-balls, widow mines and other various Zerg blenders- just getting obliterated. Or maybe try your hand at controlling 3 groups of units up and down the hallways of death to get a surround off at one of the places where 3 hallways meet. Good fucking luck with that. FF will just reign supreme on these maps. I imagine Terran is going to have real trouble getting good engagements off on protoss as well (even though I do not know how to play that matchup at all, i am guessing)
I'm sorry but this looks like a big mistake. Fortunately I can veto those 2, and probably "Trash and Terminal" as well because it's just bad, looks like another split map hell. I actually like Bridgehead but probably only because it reminds me of Destination with the double bridges.
My word, these new maps are really terrible :\ I'm not sure what happened here, but after playing about 10 games this season, I can safely say I wish I could veto all of the new ones minus Terraform (and that's only cuz it feels a bit nice for protoss to get the small hallways). Moonlight with the backdoor rocks again? And the little ledge drop?
Why are we back to having "quirky" maps again -_- Why can't we just have standard, good maps. Was surprised to find out a lot of these were finalists in the TL map contest, not sure who's voting there Gotta check it out next time.
Even though I hate protoss like any freedom-loving american, I can sympathize for having to defend multiple enterances to your bases. It's next to impossible while expanding. I get that.
I have to say bridgehead is the most hilarious map ever introduced. Terran went cc first and had 0 way to prevent the backrocks from going down(brush protects meele units attacking the rocks unless highground vision)
On June 30 2015 12:57 duckk wrote: I have to say bridgehead is the most hilarious map ever introduced. Terran went cc first and had 0 way to prevent the backrocks from going down(brush protects meele units attacking the rocks unless highground vision)
Those maps definitely make zero sense. You wanted to make the game less stale ? Welcome to a world where every bo3 is going to be Coda + Cactus + Terraform.
Its like they got a bunch of bronze leaguers to make the maps. Maps with rocks at your natural so terrans can siege ur natural behind rocks. Maps with multiple entrances. Maps with wide ramps that cant be blocked. I mean I'd understand if this was early WoL but hasnt blizzard learned from their mistakes?
On June 30 2015 19:56 [PkF] Wire wrote: Blizzard : remove one of the "original" maps and bring back Echo. Please.
Don't make too much noise, they'll replace Cactus Valley by Overgrowth D:
Even worse, they replace Coda by Overgrowth because "for sake of diversity, we need a good mix of 2 players maps and 4 players maps"... While 3 spawns 4 players maps are just bad.
It's really boring to play on the same 4 maps again and again because the other maps are fucking unplayable. I just don't understand blizzard. Do they really think backdoor rocks are fun? Don't they talk to pro players when choosing maps? I already see the blizzcon finals being decided by a (or 2) backdoor rock immortal allin. edit: and what blows my mind the most is that one of the most liked maps gets removed after only 1 season in favor of those garbage maps.
well looks like i'm gonna be vetoing the new maps and play on fucking iron fortress again... seriously on some of these maps you cannot take a 3rd as protoss
This is a mappool way worse than "dreampool" lets just hope that it gets changed much faster that it took to get rid of the dreampool. I really feel sorry for all tournaments that is going with ladder maps as mappool, coda will be map #1 in 99% av all BO3 and higher.
Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote: Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
funny how you consider all ins only from the P/T pov. This map pool just forces you to all in and it's the same for every race, backdoors and abusable spots everywhere. Marines can't even kill lings attacking the rocks on bridgehead lol.
Keep getting TvT on Bridgehead and well, at least that's fun. Literally the only thing I've gotten so far except someone on Dash & Terminal insta leaving.
On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote: Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
funny how you consider all ins only from the P/T pov. This map pool just forces you to all in and it's the same for every race, backdoors and abusable spots everywhere. Marines can't even kill lings attacking the rocks on bridgehead lol.
I'm writing this merely from a Zerg POV, I'm sure that these maps are going to also make Protoss all ins alot more common, the maps look almost designed for them to me.
Ridiculous maps, you can't even wall PvZ on some of them.. so zergs can go 14gas 14 pool and deny your 3rd just like in Wings of Liberty (they can even go hatch gas pool and do the same)... 3 gateway sentry expand all over again? ...
On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote: Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
Funny cause I have for the moment a totally different feeling :
-Dash and terminal : still looking for a reason to not go mass speedling every game, for the natural is impossible to wall off in time. I'm actually very curious to see how will skilled protosses (I suck at P) will play this. The drop distance is roughly the same than on habitation station and it was totally manageable.
Last, Gangnam terran is doable but not as potent as on habitation, because the gold is impossible to wall off.
Good zerg should easily find a way to play this map imho. Protoss and terrans though...
- Bridgehead : very nice for zergs, P may prefer to 2 base all in for the moment, for Terrans, I'm trying to figure a way to kill the rocks fast enough to get the third that is next to the pocket natural, because really if you take the third on the low ground, ling runbyes combined with muta harass is a pita to deal with (the time it takes to move from the lowground third to the pocket natural, omg!)
-Terraform : it's totally standard really, My personnal opinion is the center misses some good place to engage, but that's just me, nobody seems to like maps where battles happen in the center anymore. Creep is easy to spread, you have runby paths, muta harass is strong, and you can always find a way to flank, overall nothing is reallly bad for zerg.
-Moonlight madness : I think it's a hard map for every race, and I have hard time finind the best way to play on it. The "pocket 3rd" gives a false feeling of security and it's easy for zerg to go and snipe it. As T, I'm almost thinking of killing the rock on the back door to close the main and then take the other third, even if it's far away, it may end up being easier to defend. Anyway, I think it's the map that'll require the most thinking from players, but it shouldn't be unplayable, and Zergs shouldn't have the hardest time to figure it out.
Voila, opinions, tastes, as usual we'll only know what to think when we see Korean plays the maps and show us the way :D
On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote: Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
Community: BLIZZARD NEVER LISTENS TO US!!! Community: WE WANT MORE HARASS LESS DEATHBALLS!! * Blizzard takes community maps that promotes harass * Community: THE MAPS ARE CRAP!!
If I were blizzard, I'd just lol, close shop and move into agriculture or something that doesn't have to deal with online communities.
The maps were made this way for LOTV most likely, so I wouldn't get so upset. LOTV Ladder will be announced soon then everything / everyone will be moving to LOTV Beta. So don't be mad, be happy!
On July 01 2015 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote: Ok, so in the new season I always hate all of the maps due to losing by not knowing their architecture but usually every map has some type of redeeming features, not this season so far, 20 games in and I'm hating life as a Zerg right now.
These new maps are almost everything that is bad for Zerg thrown into one map pool except mercifully no island expansions.
Dash and Terminal is banshee/drop play/prism heaven, no way to reliably move out without getting massacred by easy and guaranteed drop play, the back area of the main is way too big to waste money fortifying with static defense, 2 base Mutalisk or die trying vs Terran and whatever 2 base all in you need to execute vs. Protoss as they can expand pretty much at will while forcing you to split your army and take terrible engagements.
Verdict = Absolute trash/play this map if you want to lose alot
Bridgehead could be good if right next to every expansion there wasn't a choke that screams widow mine play or FF, also the expansion placements are wonky, I need to play a few more games on this for a final opinion though because it could be good, maybe aggressively taking map control will be the way to go on this one because allowing a Protoss push to get anywhere close to in position is suicide and once Terrans set up shop with mines you might as well forfeit the expansion otherwise your going to forfeit your army trying.
Verdict = Could be good, expansions feel punishing still but I'm going to give this one more of a chance.
Moonlight Madness is more like force field madness, taking solid fights vs. Protoss feels impossible and Terran hellion play and widow mine centric play seems absurdly strong considering this map is literally 100% ramps and chokes, there is not one singular area where flanking is viable and the backdoor into the main is just flat out bad.
Verdict = Bad
Terraform is probably just as bad or slightly less bad as both Moonlight and Dash, another 2 base Mutalisk or die trying kind of map, the expansion placements are just absurd on every level, too far away, small force field friendly maps on one 3rd base and a tight funnel on the other, the pocket third (fourth?) being able to be so easily pressured is just awful, it makes the expansion unusable even though it's really the only one that makes sense. Immortal pushes and bio mine parades are going to be nearly impossible to hold, this map is terrible.
Verdict = Absolute trash
And these were the map contest winners? This makes me seriously question the skill level of the team that picks the maps, it seems like they are either only interested in quirky maps that are going to give way to tons of all ins or cheeses or maps that blatantly favor T and P.
Zerg got shafted big time in the map pool, no other way to put it.
Community: BLIZZARD NEVER LISTENS TO US!!! Community: WE WANT MORE HARASS LESS DEATHBALLS!! * Blizzard takes community maps that promotes harass * Community: THE MAPS ARE CRAP!!
If I were blizzard, I'd just lol, close shop and move into agriculture or something that doesn't have to deal with online communities.
this would be a valid point IF people said the maps were causing the deathballs, which they arent. its the economy and the movement as well as the race design (protoss).
ontopic: what the crap is up with the destructible rocks + sightblockers, the unreachable highgrounds made for tankdrops and last but not least, freaking dash and terminal? while these maps might be fun for viewers they sure as hell arent fun for people who arent trying to cheese/isnt terran on ladder.
On July 01 2015 19:12 GGzerG wrote: The maps were made this way for LOTV most likely, so I wouldn't get so upset. LOTV Ladder will be announced soon then everything / everyone will be moving to LOTV Beta. So don't be mad, be happy!
Most pro have 1 season of WCS and a lot of week end tournaments to attend, there won't be a massive switch anytime soon. And the maps were clearly made for HotS since the TL map contest was for HotS so I'd like a source for your baseless assertions.
On July 01 2015 18:17 Salteador Neo wrote: While naturals usually have one wide ramp, D&T has two wide entrances and a third, small one, in the back.
It just screams ling runby to me. How many walls and FFs do you need to stop it? As many as there are lings?
one of the nat entrances is blocked by rocks, and the back entrance requires a grand total of 1 extra pylon/depot to wall. it's really not that big of a deal.
On July 01 2015 19:12 GGzerG wrote: The maps were made this way for LOTV most likely, so I wouldn't get so upset. LOTV Ladder will be announced soon then everything / everyone will be moving to LOTV Beta. So don't be mad, be happy!
Makes zero sense. There are still people playing HotS at the highest level for a lot of money (additionally, if Blizzard does like last year that's the map pool BlizzCon will be played on as well), and there are still way more people on HotS' ladder than there will be on LotV's until LotV's real release.
On July 01 2015 18:17 Salteador Neo wrote: While naturals usually have one wide ramp, D&T has two wide entrances and a third, small one, in the back.
It just screams ling runby to me. How many walls and FFs do you need to stop it? As many as there are lings?
one of the nat entrances is blocked by rocks, and the back entrance requires a grand total of 1 extra pylon/depot to wall. it's really not that big of a deal.
Oh thanks I could not see the rocks on the pic, I stand corrected.
On July 01 2015 18:17 Salteador Neo wrote: While naturals usually have one wide ramp, D&T has two wide entrances and a third, small one, in the back.
It just screams ling runby to me. How many walls and FFs do you need to stop it? As many as there are lings?
one of the nat entrances is blocked by rocks, and the back entrance requires a grand total of 1 extra pylon/depot to wall. it's really not that big of a deal.
Oh thanks I could not see the rocks on the pic, I stand corrected.
on the other hand reapers can jump through the gold minerals. fun stuff.
This map pool is very disapointing, I don't know who to blame but by the time this game exists , I still don't understand why there's is back doors, gold base and 4 players maps that are not cross only, this make no sense to me. The game provides already enough cheese and shenanigans with the choice of build and I'm not sure if it's necessary that the maps add some more since it's very difficult for standards players to scoot what's coming.
Maybe Blizzard should extand the time between two seasons and use this time to propose a shit ton of new maps and see what feedback they get before deciding what maps they choose for the next season.
removed some good and bad maps, but added ALL BAD MAPS. seriously, who the hell voted for this trash? scrap station 2.0 and not one but TWO maps with rock back doors...ugh. bridgehead you don't even have room to build anything...it's stupid.
fast forward to next season already; i'll be skipping this one.
Dash and Terminal is such a shit map, no creativity at all, IT'S BASCIALLY SCRAP STATION 2.0 with a change in let's say colour????????? (and I think Gold base) Who the fk made this map?
I feel bad for the map makers of these maps. Work really hard to make a good make, entered it into TLMC and either won or got top 5 and felt like the did something nice for the community and accomplished something good. On top of that blizzard puts there map in the ladder and probably felt even better. That being said, i feel just about everyone agrees they contributed to one of the worst map pools just about ever.
Its fucked up to say but its true, and i hope they arent reading any of these comments even mine.
People saying Dash and Terminal is exactly like Scrap Station wtf are you smoking. It's space station, 2p mirrored and the gold/islands on either end are the same. That stuff is mostly irrelevant compared to some huge difference. Most obvious if you take a look at Crap Station you will see that the third is absolutely impossible. It's literally right in the middle of the map, 3 tank ranges away from your opponent's third. You could only take that base if you had a strong enough army ball to control the map middle. Otherwise you'd be forced to take that semi island or island base and go for a very different style of play (aka air). This is very different on Dash and Terminal where you have a very natural and defendable expanion pattern of 4 bases at least. Stuff like the island or an earlier gold base is just optional. Also movement options in the middle are much wider and nowhere near as restricted as Scrap Station, and the close path when rocks are down is more defendable and not as short. That's just among a lot of other things like the naturals being very different, how much closer Scrap Station is by air, the double width ramp on Scrap Station etc.
Anyway, the one thing on Dash and Terminal they might need to fix right now is the Terran float to gold. We have seen this thing succeed multiple times. I'm giving it a bit more time personally for Protoss/Zerg to figure out how exactly to punish it but obviously if they can't punish it then it will have to be rocked up.
Same goes for Moonlight Madness drop pod on the main/third btw. I don't think Zergs have enough practice how to beat it yet but if it proves unpunishable the thing will obviously have to be made smaller in some way.
They are already talking about fixing the thing with vision on backdoor on Bridgehead... surprisingly quickly.. altho unsurprisingly Blizzard themselves changed it to cos this issue.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wntgM6F.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uhBGfMI.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/n5TTYWO.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mVP3zK2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.arbse.net/Files/Download/Replays/2012/warcraft_3_replays_01.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LrepQzb.jpg)
