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On June 11 2015 12:56 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match. Might as well pack it in now, because if that match wasn't proof that it was thrown. KeSPA's not only blind, they're stupid
They couldn't find proof from his Phone / Computer, that's how a real investigation goes, sorry if that blows your mind. If there's no direct evidence linking match fixers to MKP you can't prove that he's guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Plenty of guilty people go free because of a lack of evidence in any judicial system, but we rather that than having innocent people convicted for crimes they didn't commit.
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On June 11 2015 13:42 StasisField wrote:
I don't know what all of the witch hunters want at this point. We've had interviews from multiple people stating marineking is clean and Wolf stated in TLG how they go about this very very thorough process (they took his phone and pc and went through all files and messages on both). "We want more! We want evidence he's innocent!" When did it become guilty until proven innocent? There has been nothing proving he's guilty. Why do we need more? KesPA has always taken these things seriously. Idk why people think that suddenly they stopped caring and are just trying to cover everything up.
At this point, I think the witch hunters only want one thing: witch burned, regardless of innocence or guilt. (I mean, that's how witch hunters worked back in the day, right?)
I'm also starting to think proving MK didn't matchfix is probatio diabolica - ppl can easily interpret a "matchfix! burn him at the stake!" from the craptastic performance that started all this, but there is no real clear-cut piece of "evidence" in this world that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that such matchfixing didn't occur.
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Why won't KeSPA release the replay of the game in question? I don't really see the downside for any party for doing so.
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On June 11 2015 15:59 b0lt wrote:
Why won't KeSPA release the replay of the game in question? I don't really see the downside for any party for doing so.
There's a rather obvious downside. People will create conclusions that say he's guilty as well as conclusions that say he's not, and as usual with gaming communities (this one included), the conclusion that allows people to declare someone guilty will be the one people listen to. Just like people still believe that Livibee was boosted or that Maddelisk got Kas DQ'd, there's no convincing people who want to find reasons to hate. The upside is having people stop yelling about the replay. The downside is the entire Western scene turning against one of the most recognizable names in the game.
The team that risks losing sponsorships if it harbors corrupt players investigated the game. The governing body of esports in the entirety of Korea has investigated the game and the player. Nobody with any expert knowledge or authority says that MarineKing is involved in any improper activity. Until we get more than amateur conjecture on the other side, this case is closed, locked, sealed, and filed away.
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On June 11 2015 15:33 rikapi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 13:42 StasisField wrote:
I don't know what all of the witch hunters want at this point. We've had interviews from multiple people stating marineking is clean and Wolf stated in TLG how they go about this very very thorough process (they took his phone and pc and went through all files and messages on both). "We want more! We want evidence he's innocent!" When did it become guilty until proven innocent? There has been nothing proving he's guilty. Why do we need more? KesPA has always taken these things seriously. Idk why people think that suddenly they stopped caring and are just trying to cover everything up. At this point, I think the witch hunters only want one thing: witch burned, regardless of innocence or guilt. (I mean, that's how witch hunters worked back in the day, right?) I'm also starting to think proving MK didn't matchfix is probatio diabolica - ppl can easily interpret a "matchfix! burn him at the stake!" from the craptastic performance that started all this, but there is no real clear-cut piece of "evidence" in this world that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that such matchfixing didn't occur.
People are quick to judge and slow to change their mind.
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This is how to to answer the community properly about a concern. GOM could learn a thing or two about PR from the ways that KeSPA and SpoTV have been handling their's.
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On June 11 2015 12:56 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match. Might as well pack it in now, because if that match wasn't proof that it was thrown. KeSPA's not only blind, they're stupid
Dont think you quite understand, Even if he was matchfixing, IF THERE IS NO EVIDENCE YOU CANNOT PROSECUTE THEM. They basically said they found no evidence, even checking his phone and computer, so what they should just ban him for life and call up the police? Then what? The police would be like "wheres the evidence?"... "uhhh.. we got none"......
The match itself and the canceled bets are not proof, that is speculation. Proof would be texts/emails between him and the 3rd party involved.
He very well could have match fixed and just hid all his tracks, or maybe he didnt and made a horrid mistake for all the reasons ppl have said, the point is if theres no evidence you cant throw him under the bus. Suspect all you want.
I completely understand Kespa not sharing all the details as they would actually like to catch future match fixing. No point in giving out your strategy.
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On June 11 2015 12:55 Doodsmack wrote:
Not a sufficient defense of MarineKing. No defense is sufficient without specific explanations of MKP's actions during the match. Why won't they say what questions they asked MarineKing about the match? Of course he could delete messages from his phone and computer - if he has a brain then he deleted them immediately after the conversation.
Dude making a file and stuff like that permanently dissapear is a absurdly time consuming task and require knowledge on IT, if KeSPA is a government organ they would probably have someone to search for the informations.
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Damn I wanted to know who was the interviewer but it's not even indicated, TL pls
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On June 11 2015 17:07 OtherWorld wrote:
Damn I wanted to know who was the interviewer but it's not even indicated, TL pls
Scared of KeSPA Jail.
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On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote:
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
your mind is fucked up. It's innocent until proven guilty not the other way around.
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On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote:
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
I'm gonna charge you for murder. Find evidence you didnt kill someone, if you dont, you're staying in jail.
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I personally believe hes guilty, i also think there is a very strong chance at least several of the others are, but hey what are you going to do other than hope marineking and the other suspected match fixers continue to screw up in ways kespa cant ignore
Id confidently stake my entire net worth that at least some of the matches people including me believe were fixed were indeed fixed, theres enough evidence to convict in the court of public opinion but not the court of law so thats that i guess
Personally i will cheer against marineking san innovation yoda super and b4 from now on and against the teams thst protect them and i think im missing one or two names from the list and thats that i guess. Hopefully they will be too scared to fix more matches and if not then hopefully they get sloppy and leave more evidence for us
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On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote:
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind.
Are you fucking kidding me ?
Ok. Then, I'll go to every media in France and throw bullshit about EVERYONE I dislike one this planet.
Then they'll just go to jail, or be given death penalty, since they are GUILTY until proven innocent.
Hum...
You're basically trolling and I got caught. Sorry.
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How the fuck do half the people responding think this is a "good interview" and how can anyone conclude from this that they are doing "good job"? It's a load of PR crap with no information value, as usual. I don't even know why "journalist" (and that's by far not only the case of TL) continue to embarrass themselves by publishing these things as "interviews" when they really don't give more information about anything that a two-line press statement would.
I really wish there were journalist who could give the governing body of our e-sport a really hard time until they would be forced to really say something of substance, but that's sadly completely unrealistic unless SC2 becomes miraculously big in US or Europe, because as of now, we have no leverage on an agency hidden away behind spatial, cultural and language barriers.
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On June 11 2015 12:33 Chuddinater wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote:
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind. I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty.
They're innocent in the eyes of justice, not in the eyes of a mere man, my proud american brother (I mean, I doubt defendants are innocent in the mind of the plaintiff, or else that shit wouldn't go anywhere ever). Long live the USA.
Edit: Wow, plenty of people like to throw the good old "innocent until proven guilty YOU MONSTER!!". In a case like this, no matter what you do, some people are always going to believe that you're guilty, even if not proven so. I'm mean, am I alone to understand that or what?
Presumption of innocence is, as per Wikipedia, a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It's not a fucking state of mind that everyone should uphold. Sure, ideally you should, but you're not guilty of anything if you don't. 
On June 11 2015 18:03 TAMinator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote:
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind. I'm gonna charge you for murder. Find evidence you didnt kill someone, if you dont, you're staying in jail.
Good thing it's not you we're gonna ask, my man.
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Excellent questions, but the answer where just random PR sentences that can be used by any company in any circonstances. You can switch answers between the different questions without losing any bit of information. I'm hugely disappointed. This is not an interview, this is a press release
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On June 11 2015 18:56 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 12:33 Chuddinater wrote:On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote:
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind. I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty. They're innocent in the eyes of justice, not in the eyes of a mere man, my proud american brother (I mean, I doubt defendants are innocent in the mind of the plaintiff, or else that shit wouldn't go anywhere ever). Long live the USA. Edit: Wow, plenty of people like to throw the good old "innocent until proven guilty YOU MONSTER!!". In a case like this, no matter what you do, some people are always going to believe that you're guilty, even if not proven so. I'm mean, am I alone to understand that or what? Presumption of innocence is, as per Wikipedia, a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It's not a fucking state of mind that everyone should uphold. Sure, ideally you should, but you're not guilty of anything if you don't.
No, obviously one man has the right to think that someone else is guilty, the problem is when some people thinking that imply that because he's guilty in their eyes, he should be considered guilty by KeSPA - which is simply not possible, since justice works with the innocent until proven guilty system.
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On June 11 2015 19:03 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 18:56 ZenithM wrote:On June 11 2015 12:33 Chuddinater wrote:On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote:
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind. I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty. They're innocent in the eyes of justice, not in the eyes of a mere man, my proud american brother (I mean, I doubt defendants are innocent in the mind of the plaintiff, or else that shit wouldn't go anywhere ever). Long live the USA. Edit: Wow, plenty of people like to throw the good old "innocent until proven guilty YOU MONSTER!!". In a case like this, no matter what you do, some people are always going to believe that you're guilty, even if not proven so. I'm mean, am I alone to understand that or what? Presumption of innocence is, as per Wikipedia, a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It's not a fucking state of mind that everyone should uphold. Sure, ideally you should, but you're not guilty of anything if you don't. No, obviously one man has the right to think that someone else is guilty, the problem is when some people thinking that imply that because he's guilty in their eyes, he should be considered guilty by KeSPA - which is simply not possible, since justice works with the innocent until proven guilty system.
I thought it was pretty clear T.O.P. doesn't think MarineKing should be in jail right now. The "in my mind" is pretty important in his post.
And goddammit, I know how justice works (at least in that regard), thank you very much. But "justice" and individuals are different.
Edit: Although, I do believe that T.O.P. mispoke when he asked for proof from Kespa that MK is innocent ;D. What he could have asked for is more details about their investigation process.
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On June 11 2015 19:09 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 19:03 OtherWorld wrote:On June 11 2015 18:56 ZenithM wrote:On June 11 2015 12:33 Chuddinater wrote:On June 11 2015 12:31 T.O.P. wrote:
They talk tough, but why not give us some evidence that MarineKing is innocent. After watching that game, he's guilty until proven innocent in my mind. I'm from America, so people are always innocent until proven guilty. They're innocent in the eyes of justice, not in the eyes of a mere man, my proud american brother (I mean, I doubt defendants are innocent in the mind of the plaintiff, or else that shit wouldn't go anywhere ever). Long live the USA. Edit: Wow, plenty of people like to throw the good old "innocent until proven guilty YOU MONSTER!!". In a case like this, no matter what you do, some people are always going to believe that you're guilty, even if not proven so. I'm mean, am I alone to understand that or what? Presumption of innocence is, as per Wikipedia, a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial. It's not a fucking state of mind that everyone should uphold. Sure, ideally you should, but you're not guilty of anything if you don't. No, obviously one man has the right to think that someone else is guilty, the problem is when some people thinking that imply that because he's guilty in their eyes, he should be considered guilty by KeSPA - which is simply not possible, since justice works with the innocent until proven guilty system. I thought it was pretty clear T.O.P. doesn't think MarineKing should be in jail right now. The "in my mind" is pretty important in his post. And goddammit, I know how justice works (at least in that regard), thank you very much. But "justice" and individuals are different. Edit: Although, I do believe that T.O.P. mispoke when he asked for proof from Kespa that MK is innocent ;D. What he could have asked for is more details about their investigation process.
Ah yeah sorry I didn't read T.O.P's post well enough d: I was more thinking of posts like that (emboldenings are mine) when I posted mine :
+ Show Spoiler +On June 11 2015 12:10 plasmidghost wrote:
I wish there were similar punishments in Dota 2 for matchfixing, I don't like that a player that threw a game is allowed to play at the biggest tournament in the game's history. I don't care if it was one time or if the game didn't matter, he should not be allowed to play in premier tournaments anymore. On June 11 2015 12:55 Doodsmack wrote:
Not a sufficient defense of MarineKing. No defense is sufficient without specific explanations of MKP's actions during the match. Why won't they say what questions they asked MarineKing about the match? Of course he could delete messages from his phone and computer - if he has a brain then he deleted them immediately after the conversation. On June 11 2015 12:56 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +We concluded that even though the match was suspicious there was no evidence that points to Marineking purposely throwing the match. Might as well pack it in now, because if that match wasn't proof that it was thrown. KeSPA's not only blind, they're stupid
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EPT
