Greatest Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 16

fx9

117 Posts

April 26 2015 03:37 GMT

#301

A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments

If we really strictly adhere to the above objective guideline,
how can Taeja be ranked so high?
Granted, he is a monster for weekend tourneys, but he has only IEMs, DHs & tonnes of HSC wins to show.
He didn't win any of the premier tournaments be it Blizzcon, GSL, OSL,SSL, Kespa, WCS or WCG.
And his WCS performance has always been abysmal, comparing to MC 2nd, 2nd & 1st WCS placing.

stuchiu

Fiddler's Green42661 Posts

April 26 2015 03:38 GMT

#302

On April 26 2015 12:37 fx9 wrote:
A basic guideline is Blizzcons(Only 2013+) > GSL > OSL/SSL/Kespa Cup/WCS (2012 KR)/WCG KR/Blizzcon 2011 > International Tournaments

If we really strictly adhere to the above objective guideline,
how can Taeja be ranked so high?
Granted, he is a monster for weekend tourneys, but he has only IEMs, DHs & tonnes of HSC wins to show.
He didn't win any of the premier tournaments be it Blizzcon, GSL, OSL,SSL, Kespa, WCS or WCG.
And his WCS performance has always been abysmal, comparing to MC 2nd, 2nd & 1st WCS placing.

The list could be even larger if I hadn't balanced the runs so heavily in MC's favor. All of this just to ask you this one question: at what point does prestige outweigh difficulty and peak consistency and hard fought tournament runs? At what point does preparation format mean more than sheer number of victories against harder opponents? In my opinion with Taeja and MC we crossed the point long ago and we still ended up at 5 major tournament runs left for Taeja (and even more if I had exactly balanced out the scales instead of blatantly favoring MC).

feanaro

United States123 Posts

April 26 2015 03:47 GMT

#303

On April 26 2015 08:34 Die4Ever wrote:
+ Show Spoiler [quotes] +

On April 26 2015 08:10 Die4Ever wrote:

Show nested quote +

So I ran a quick script on this idea, using this Liquipedia page http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Only counting finals appearances in Premier tournaments, giving 100/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year points for a 1st place and 70/number_of_tournaments_in_the_year for 2nd place. Obviously this isn't great, maybe I can also weight it by prize money, and maybe give extra points to the tournaments in Korea. Also with this Code A Champion is worth the same points as Code S lol.

#1 Life with a score of 77
#2 Polt with a score of 49
#3 Zest with a score of 35
#4 PartinG with a score of 35
#5 TaeJa with a score of 34
#6 MC with a score of 31
#7 Mvp with a score of 28
#8 MMA with a score of 28
#9 Maru with a score of 23
#10 Trap with a score of 20
+ Show Spoiler [More] +

#11 Bomber with a score of 20
#12 Hydra with a score of 18
#13 HerO with a score of 17
#14 Jaedong with a score of 16
#15 DongRaeGu with a score of 15
#16 HyuN with a score of 14
#17 Leenock with a score of 14
#18 sOs with a score of 13
#19 Stephano with a score of 13
#20 NaNiwa with a score of 13
#21 MarineKing with a score of 12
#22 Rain with a score of 12
#23 herO with a score of 12
#24 PuMa with a score of 11
#25 INnoVation with a score of 10
#26 soO with a score of 10
#27 Soulkey with a score of 10
#28 San with a score of 9
#29 NesTea with a score of 9
#30 viOLet with a score of 8
#31 Solar with a score of 8
#32 Nerchio with a score of 8
#33 Dear with a score of 8
#34 MaNa with a score of 8
#35 Symbol with a score of 7
#36 Flash with a score of 7
#37 First with a score of 7
#38 Oz with a score of 6
#39 LosirA with a score of 6
#40 ForGG with a score of 6
#41 DIMAGA with a score of 6
#42 StarDust with a score of 6
#43 Creator with a score of 6
#44 Snute with a score of 6
#45 Alicia with a score of 5
#46 ThorZaIN with a score of 5
#47 Squirtle with a score of 5
#48 HuK with a score of 5
#49 Revival with a score of 5
#50 YoDa with a score of 5
#51 jjakji with a score of 4
#52 Dream with a score of 4
#53 TOP with a score of 4
#54 White-Ra with a score of 4
#55 Moon with a score of 4
#56 Curious with a score of 3
#57 Sen with a score of 3
#58 RorO with a score of 3
#59 IdrA with a score of 3
#60 Sacsri with a score of 3
#61 GanZi with a score of 3
#62 Pigbaby with a score of 3
#63 duckdeok with a score of 3
#64 Puzzle with a score of 3
#65 Classic with a score of 3
#66 SuperNova with a score of 3
#67 AcE with a score of 3
#68 Ret with a score of 3
#69 SjoW with a score of 3
#70 Impact with a score of 2
#71 Grubby with a score of 2
#72 Genius with a score of 2
#73 Sound with a score of 2
#74 ByuN with a score of 2
#75 Adelscott with a score of 2
#76 Sora with a score of 2
#77 FruitDealer with a score of 2
#78 Lucky with a score of 2
#79 Sniper with a score of 2
#80 elfi with a score of 2
#81 Cure with a score of 2
#82 CoCa with a score of 2
#83 Bly with a score of 2
#84 VortiX with a score of 2
#85 Heart with a score of 2
#86 Sting with a score of 2
#87 YongHwa with a score of 2
#88 Tassadar with a score of 2
#89 ByuL with a score of 2
#90 InCa with a score of 2
#91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2
#92 Seed with a score of 2
#93 July with a score of 2
#94 Scarlett with a score of 2
#95 MorroW with a score of 2
#96 aLive with a score of 2
#97 XiGua with a score of 2

+ Show Spoiler [Javascript] +


var players={};
var aplayers=[];
var years={};

function AddPlacing(name, place, year)
{
	if(name=='TBD') return;
	//console.log(name,place,year);
	if(!years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		years[year]={tournaments:0};
	}
	if(place==1) years[year].tournaments++;
	if(!players.hasOwnProperty(name)) {
		players[name]={name:name,firsts:0,seconds:0, years:{}};
	}
	if(place==1) players[name].firsts++;
	if(place==2) players[name].seconds++;
	if(!players[name].years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		players[name].years[year]={firsts:0,seconds:0};
	}
	if(place==1) players[name].years[year].firsts++;
	if(place==2) players[name].years[year].seconds++;
}

function ScorePlayer(p)
{
	var score=0;
	for(var i in p.years) {
		var y=p.years[i];
		score += y.firsts * 100 / years[i].tournaments;
		score += y.seconds * 70 / years[i].tournaments;
	}
	return Math.round(score);
}

$('h3').each(function(){
	console.log($(this).text());
	var year=$(this).text();
	var t=$(this).next();
	t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){
		var c=$(this).find('td');
		//console.log(c);
		var champ='';
		var runnerup='';
		var champs=[];
		var runnerups=[];
		try {
			champ=$(c[7].text();
			runnerup=$(c[8].text();
			champs=champ.split(/\s+/g);
			runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g);
		} catch(e) { }
		for(var i in champs) {
			var n=champs[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 1, year);				
		}
		for(var i in runnerups) {
			var n=runnerups[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 2, year);
		}
	});
});

for(var n in players) {
	var p=players[n];
	p['score']=ScorePlayer(p);
	aplayers.push(p);
}
console.log('sorting players');
aplayers.sort(function(a,b) {
	return b.score-a.score;
});
console.log('listing players');
var out='\n\n\n';
for(var i in aplayers) {
	var p=aplayers[i];
	var place=i- -1;
	out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n';
}
out+='\n';
console.log(out);
//console.log(players);

Oh yea and please vote for me so I don't lose in the first round, only left
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24136042

So I updated this to weight towards bigger money tournaments and tournaments in Korea. It looks at premier tournament finals placings and scores them relative to how many tournaments were in that year.

#1 Life with a score of 153
#2 Polt with a score of 140
#3 PartinG with a score of 92
#4 Hydra with a score of 88
#5 Zest with a score of 80
#6 Mvp with a score of 79
#7 MMA with a score of 68
#8 MC with a score of 64
#9 Trap with a score of 51
#10 soO with a score of 47
+ Show Spoiler [More] +

#11 TaeJa with a score of 46
#12 Maru with a score of 42
#13 Bomber with a score of 39
#14 INnoVation with a score of 38
#15 sOs with a score of 36
#16 DongRaeGu with a score of 35
#17 Jaedong with a score of 35
#18 MarineKing with a score of 33
#19 Leenock with a score of 31
#20 Rain with a score of 29
#21 HerO with a score of 28
#22 HyuN with a score of 28
#23 Soulkey with a score of 27
#24 Stephano with a score of 25
#25 NesTea with a score of 24
#26 Dear with a score of 22
#27 herO with a score of 22
#28 PuMa with a score of 20
#29 Symbol with a score of 19
#30 NaNiwa with a score of 19
#31 LosirA with a score of 16
#32 Squirtle with a score of 16
#33 San with a score of 15
#34 TOP with a score of 15
#35 Oz with a score of 14
#36 Creator with a score of 14
#37 RorO with a score of 13
#38 jjakji with a score of 13
#39 viOLet with a score of 13
#40 Classic with a score of 12
#41 MaNa with a score of 12
#42 First with a score of 12
#43 YoDa with a score of 12
#44 Nerchio with a score of 11
#45 Flash with a score of 11
#46 ForGG with a score of 10
#47 StarDust with a score of 10
#48 Solar with a score of 10
#49 Alicia with a score of 10
#50 Dream with a score of 9
#51 Snute with a score of 9
#52 Revival with a score of 9
#53 Seed with a score of 9
#54 Sniper with a score of 9
#55 Genius with a score of 9
#56 July with a score of 8
#57 InCa with a score of 8
#58 Pigbaby with a score of 7
#59 DIMAGA with a score of 7
#60 SuperNova with a score of 7
#61 ByuN with a score of 6
#62 Heart with a score of 6
#63 duckdeok with a score of 6
#64 HuK with a score of 6
#65 ThorZaIN with a score of 6
#66 Puzzle with a score of 6
#67 Curious with a score of 6
#68 GanZi with a score of 6
#69 White-Ra with a score of 6
#70 Tassadar with a score of 5
#71 Moon with a score of 5
#72 aLive with a score of 5
#73 ByuL with a score of 5
#74 Sora with a score of 4
#75 Lucky with a score of 4
#76 Sting with a score of 3
#77 AcE with a score of 3
#78 IdrA with a score of 3
#79 VortiX with a score of 3
#80 Cure with a score of 3
#81 Sen with a score of 3
#82 SjoW with a score of 3
#83 Adelscott with a score of 3
#84 Impact with a score of 3
#85 Ret with a score of 3
#86 XiGua with a score of 3
#87 Scarlett with a score of 3
#88 Sacsri with a score of 3
#89 CoCa with a score of 2
#90 elfi with a score of 2
#91 KiWiKaKi with a score of 2
#92 FruitDealer with a score of 2
#93 Sound with a score of 2
#94 Grubby with a score of 2
#95 MorroW with a score of 2
#96 YongHwa with a score of 2
#97 Bly with a score of 2

+ Show Spoiler [Javascript code] +


var players={};
var aplayers=[];
var years={};

function AddPlacing(name, place, year, country, money)
{
	if(name=='TBD') return;
	//console.log(name,place,year);
	if(!years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		years[year]={tournaments:0};
	}
	if(place==1) years[year].tournaments++;
	if(!players.hasOwnProperty(name)) {
		players[name]={name:name,firsts:0,seconds:0,score:0,years:{}};
	}
	if(place==1) players[name].firsts++;
	if(place==2) players[name].seconds++;
	if(!players[name].years.hasOwnProperty(year)) {
		players[name].years[year]={firsts:0,seconds:0,score:0};
	}
	if(country=='South Korea') money*=2;
	money/=1000;
	if(place==1) {
		players[name].years[year].firsts++;
		players[name].years[year].score+=100+money;
	}
	if(place==2) {
		players[name].years[year].seconds++;
		players[name].years[year].score+=70+money;
	}
}

function ScorePlayer(p)
{
	var score=0;
	for(var i in p.years) {
		var y=p.years[i];
		score += p.years[i].score / years[i].tournaments;
	}
	return Math.round(score);
}

$('h3').each(function(){
	console.log($(this).text());
	var year=$(this).text();
	var t=$(this).next();
	t.find('tbody tr').each(function(){
		var c=$(this).find('td');
		//console.log(c);
		var champ='';
		var runnerup='';
		var champs=[];
		var runnerups=[];
		var country='';
		var money=10000;
		try {
			champ=$(c[7].text();
			runnerup=$(c[8].text();
			champs=champ.split(/\s+/g);
			runnerups=runnerup.split(/\s+/g);
			country=$(c[6].find('img').attr('alt');
			money=$(c[4].text().replace(/[s$,]/g, '');
			money=parseInt(money);
		} catch(e) { }
		var m=money;
		for(var i in champs) {
			var n=champs[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 1, year, country, m);
			m/=2;
		}
		var m=money;
		for(var i in runnerups) {
			var n=runnerups[i];
			if(n.length==0) continue;
			AddPlacing(n, 2, year, country, m);
			m/=2;
		}
	});
});

for(var n in players) {
	var p=players[n];
	p['score']=ScorePlayer(p);
	aplayers.push(p);
}
console.log('sorting players');
aplayers.sort(function(a,b) {
	return b.score-a.score;
});
console.log('listing players');
var out='\n\n\n';
for(var i in aplayers) {
	var p=aplayers[i];
	var place=i- -1;
	out+='#'+place+' '+p.name+' with a score of '+p.score+'\n';
}
out+='\n';
console.log(out);
//console.log(players);

Oh yea and please vote for me so I don't lose in the first round, only left
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=24136042

This seems to give too much weight to tournaments in 2015 since it is only part of the way done. An interesting variation would be weighting later years more heavily to take into account how the competitiveness of the scene increased over the years, although I don't know any objective way of determining what the weights should be.

y0su

Finland7871 Posts

April 26 2015 03:58 GMT

#304

Taeja may not have won a GLS, but he has a pair of semi-final finishes where he lost to the eventual winner. Also, I don't know who you'd put in the top 3 (this is why I'm not making said list), but MC (#4) has a lot of poor showings at the same tournaments Taeja won. That's got to count somewhere.

It's kind of like saying Soo was the best sc2 player last year. At no singe point was he the best but constantly being the 2nd best (to changing winners) puts you in the discussion.

Speaking of discussions... if Taeja is not top 3 all time who easily bumps him? (Assuming Mvp and Life are top 2.)

Vedeynevin

United States431 Posts

April 26 2015 04:00 GMT

#305

On April 26 2015 12:06 InExcelsis wrote:

Show nested quote +

It would be retardedly different cause Taeja would have won 10% of what he did imo but we will never know Taeja is so over hyped based on his wins, I'm sorry but he has hardly ever beat elite competition to win an elite title to go along with that elite status so many seem to be happy to give him so easily I respect him fully don't get me wrong but NOBODY ON EARTH could convince me he is a top 3 all time SC2 player NOT A CHANCE!!!!!

Ummm......are you sure about that?

On April 26 2015 08:31 SLCMemento wrote:
For all the TaeJa haters that talked about his no GSL wins, and who think he should be behind people like MC. Take this one comparison.

TaeJa - DH Winter 2013 - 1st - INnoVation, sOs, ForGG, HerO, MMA, Life, Life again

MC - 2nd GSL Win: July, San, July

I rest my case. Not all GSLs are created equal. And MC's 2nd GSL win was a joke compared to several of the tourneys TaeJa's won.

GSL's ARE the hardest tourney in the world IN GENERAL, but not by nearly as large a margin as people seem to think. And some are merely equal at best to top international events. Seed, Sniper, and Jjaki are GSL winners...who? Exactly.

Taeja also beat sOs, Life, and Innovation (without dropping a map to any of them btw) In 2013 DH Bucharest, but I guess that doesn't matter either. One of those useless ASUS ROG wins was by beating MC, i'm sure that's also irrelavent. His IEM Shenzen win went through Zest (in 2014 so good Zest) and Solar (2014 Solar).
Look at MC's first GSL runhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2010_Sony_Ericsson_StarCraft_II_Open_Season_3/Full_Bracket and tell me it's more impressive, please.

Lets also ignore the fact that he has a lifetime winning record against almost every player on this list, no that doesn't matter either because apparently no GSL=no skill.

Just because it was a GSL doesn't mean they had a harder road....maybe try looking at who they played? Or is that too hard for you......

Also, for the record I dislike Taeja and am a big MC fan. No i don't have a Terran bias either, i play Zerg....Life is my favorite player.......I just don't think all GSLs are created equal. Neither are all of Teaja's foreign wins, some had very easy roads through mostly foreigners....but I'd say at least 2 of his dreamhacks had harder opponents then MC's GSL's. (except that's apparently impossible....because the GSL makes every opponent you face worth WAY MORE credibility :/

jojamon

133 Posts

April 26 2015 04:06 GMT

#306

I agree with you Vedeynevin, Taeja deserves to be top 5, but I do feel MC should be above Taeja.

MC's consistency is just too good. Taeja either gets knocked out of a tournament really early, or takes it deep.
MC pretty much always goes deep into a tourney, so his consistency is imo, better than Taeja's.
MC also essentially invented PvP back in early days of WoL, and he was the Protoss pioneer for quite a while (his sentry use was and is still out of this world). Only other person who did something revolutionary with P in early WoL days is San, who revolutionized HT use with warp-in storms back when the Amulet upgrade was still present.

Taeja on the other hand, has extremely good mechanics and excellent game sense, but he never revolutionized Terran in the sense that Mvp or MKP did.

chiasmus

United States134 Posts

April 26 2015 04:32 GMT

#307

Whether Taeja belongs at rank 3, or 4, or 5, who can say. But I'm glad he's high up on this list in recognition of what a *unique* player he is in the history of Starcraft 2. Taeja is, by a pretty huge margin, the best weekend tournament player in the history of the game. And sure, he benefited from having a team that ould send him to all those tournaments. But it's still an accomplishment, and a different type of accomplishment than being a great preparation tournament player. That's something I think we should keep separate from whether the tournaments he succeeded in had a lower average player quality than your typical GSL.

And yes, the two players that will come in at ranks 1 and 2 were great preparation players who could *also* show up and dominate a weekend tournament when the mood struck. That's why they deserve their rank. But Taeja's position makes perfect sense as a representation of his distinctive historical signifiance.

j4vz

Canada976 Posts

April 26 2015 04:35 GMT

#308

On April 26 2015 01:19 SuperHofmann wrote:
Taeja top 3 without a single korean title, totally undeserved imho

Hoping for Life top 1

He still had to beat top korean in international tournament.

Vedeynevin

United States431 Posts

April 26 2015 04:56 GMT

#309

On April 26 2015 13:06 jojamon wrote:
I agree with you Vedeynevin, Taeja deserves to be top 5, but I do feel MC should be above Taeja.

MC's consistency is just too good. Taeja either gets knocked out of a tournament really early, or takes it deep.
MC pretty much always goes deep into a tourney, so his consistency is imo, better than Taeja's.
MC also essentially invented PvP back in early days of WoL, and he was the Protoss pioneer for quite a while (his sentry use was and is still out of this world). Only other person who did something revolutionary with P in early WoL days is San, who revolutionized HT use with warp-in storms back when the Amulet upgrade was still present.

Taeja on the other hand, has extremely good mechanics and excellent game sense, but he never revolutionized Terran in the sense that Mvp or MKP did.

Yeah, I have MC 3 as well. I was just really frustrated with people completely dismissing Taeja because of his lack of GSL wins, and then claiming liquid bias. It's obvious Stuchio put a ton of work into this, and his arguement for Taeja is very compelling. On that note, thanks Stuchio, I've enjoyed every article so far and I'm looking forward to reading the top two.

stuchiu

Fiddler's Green42661 Posts

April 26 2015 04:59 GMT

#310

On April 26 2015 13:56 Vedeynevin wrote:

Show nested quote +

Thanks!

Fanatic-Templar

Canada5819 Posts

April 26 2015 05:10 GMT

#311

No Fruitdealer?

This list is a sham. A SHAM.

EDIT: Wow, everyone upset about Taeja is missing the real atrocity: this list needs more Fruitdealer. And also Genius.

You might say that they could be in the top two slots, but let's be honest. We all know those two are going to be BitbyBit and Has.

munch

Mute City2363 Posts

April 26 2015 05:42 GMT

#312

I'll have no bashing on jjakji please. November 2011 Code S finals was the greatest series in SC2 history

Kitai

United States880 Posts

April 26 2015 06:03 GMT

#313

I love that TaeJa is this high. He and Life are the two players that have floored me more than any others (even MVP)

nimdil

Poland3759 Posts

April 26 2015 07:23 GMT

#314

They way this lists unfolds, it feels like this is more "Strongest players of all time" rather than "Greatest..."

Scorch

Austria3371 Posts

April 26 2015 07:24 GMT

#315

Taeja possesses great skill, no question about it. But he never achieved much in Korea. I don't see how you can put a player who has never made a finals in Korea above MC, who not only has many international achievements but also 2 GSLs and earned almost twice as much prize money.

bjornkavist

Canada1235 Posts

April 26 2015 07:26 GMT

#316

Awesome write up, agree with the Taeja placement, much as I love MC.

Nirel

Israel1526 Posts

April 26 2015 07:32 GMT

#317

Another week for #1 and #2 are you trying to kill me?!
On a different note I wonder who is going to be out of top 15 MVP or Life, because there's only room for Clide and one more person.

justRavindersingh

1 Post

April 26 2015 07:37 GMT

#318

Bot edit.

User was banned for this post.

TheEmulator

28100 Posts

April 26 2015 07:51 GMT

#319

Hmm, I'm expecting to be #1 whenever that's released.

Ingvar

Russian Federation421 Posts

April 26 2015 08:06 GMT

#320

On April 26 2015 16:23 nimdil wrote:
They way this lists unfolds, it feels like this is more "Strongest players of all time" rather than "Greatest..."

You're quite right. It's hard to call TaeJa great even with 11 premier wins, when you know that that there is 3 Homestory Cups but no GSLs. I mean, the most prestigious tournament TaeJa won was Dreamhack: Winter, but it is still like a Blizzcon for those who succeed only in Dreamhacks. But calling TaeJa top 5 strongest player in history of SC2 can be hardly argued against.

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