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On April 22 2015 01:19 maGicc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:03 Nebuchad wrote:
"They should have released the replay so that everyone can stick to their positions into one more thread!" Please. Replay will be huge. At minimum, it would be easy to see 1) did he see the spine or not 2) when he saw a creep @his base. Implying that replay would not be heplfull and "will only result in more debates" is flat our retarded.
A) Replay shows suspicious vision from MKP. You have something suspicious. That is already the case right now without the replay, we already have the suspicious situation which demands an investigation. Nothing has changed.
B) Replay shows nothing suspicious in the vision of MKP. Doesn't matter, we already have enough suspicious things to demand an investigation. Nothing has changed.
Well, something has changed. We have one more thread to reiterate it and antagonize other people for no reason. Please, feel free to keep at it.
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On April 22 2015 01:15 LightSpectra wrote:
I say that anybody who cares for this to be resolved, email KeSPA, Proleague, and major sponsors, and tell them that you're not going to watch any more games until this matter is resolved.
Can I still watch the games, but say to them that I'm not?
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On April 22 2015 01:27 Nebuchad wrote:
Well, something has changed. We have one more thread to reiterate it and antagonize other people for no reason. Please, feel free to keep at it.
Dont worry, we will have one more thread anyway soon enough when Pinnacle will void another bet.
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On April 22 2015 01:32 maGicc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:27 Nebuchad wrote:
Well, something has changed. We have one more thread to reiterate it and antagonize other people for no reason. Please, feel free to keep at it. Dont worry, we will have one moer thread anyway soon enough when Pinnacle will void another bet.
That is correct.
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It really pains me to see how much blind hate and negativity there is towards this case. In most peoples eyes MK is already guilty, even tho they do not have any means to prove this. Im pretty sure if the statement was "Yea he fixed the match." with just as little evidence, most people would have been satisfied.
This thread right here is what witch hunts were way back - accusations that cannot be proven (by you). Without any actual evidence I believe in the saying "Innocent until proven guilty".
I on the other hand will be sleeping better this night, knowing that the team did not give in under the pressure of enraged (partially) sheepish community.
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So eyetracker for everyone, so we see if they ignored something ?
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On April 22 2015 01:19 maGicc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:03 Nebuchad wrote:
"They should have released the replay so that everyone can stick to their positions into one more thread!" Please. Replay will be huge. At minimum, it would be easy to see 1) did he see the spine or not 2) when he saw a creep @his base. Implying that replay would not be heplfull and "will only result in more debates" is flat our retarded.
Replay could only be used to condemn him further, not innocent him, hence I don't think Kespa, who's suspiciously silent about all this, wants to release replays...
Obviously if he saw the spine or creep much earlier, he's 100% guilty (all the more so if he faked a surprise reaction afterwards). But if he did not, you people will find anything in the replay to slander him anyway, that's why it's not that useful.
I'd much rather have Kespa deal with all that gracefully behind the scenes, and seriously investigate. The community doesn't need to be involved, if anything, we need to nag Kespa for an investigation, not team MVP for a replay.
Edit: And to reiterate, I myself am (was?  ) a big MarineKing fan and I do think that he did matchfix, so I'm not defending him. I know he's legally innocent until proven guilty, this doesn't prevent me to have an opinion about it, but I do think we shouldn't pressure for useless things like a replay which will do nothing other than incriminate him further even if he's innocent.
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Pretty horrible of them to say "proved wrong" and " all evidence gave us the same answer", when all they've stated they've done was talk to MarineKing, and watched the replay.
On April 21 2015 07:34 Circumstance wrote:
It's not innocent until proven guilty. It's not even guilty until proven innocent. It's guilty until forgotten about with you all. What kind of sick mentality is that? MVP wouldn't have kept him on if he was a liability to the team. You got your statement, it was clear and thorough, put the damned torches AWAY.
Watch above. Then reread their post. Just because they use the fansy words, doesn't make it true. Come on dude! You're better than this!
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On April 21 2015 07:43 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote:
Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission. Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made.
Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it.
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Give the community the replay and the evidence if he didn't match fix.
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On April 21 2015 16:41 IntoTheEmo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 16:32 North2 wrote:On April 21 2015 16:15 IntoTheEmo wrote:On April 21 2015 09:46 Liquid`Zephyr wrote:On April 21 2015 09:29 Goibon wrote:On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote:While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. I always go back to this. All that the betting lines can ever prove is that something was known to gamblers. Could be anything. I get that people want to use MKP's horrendous play as proof that he was in on it, but that doesn't qualify as proof where i come from. Maybe on the internet, maybe in the court of public opinion. Proof has to go beyond a reasonable doubt. To me, a way to prove match-fixing beyond a reasonable doubt, specifically using the game played, would be to see if MKP ever saw the spine or the creep in his base before the time he looked surprised seconds before the lings break in. We know two things: MKP is a progamer with many many thousands of games played. MKP looks surprised at 5:50 in game time. If, using the replay, we can see that his main screen (not the minimap) looks over to the spine/creep earlier, then knowing the two aforementioned facts, only two conclusions can be drawn. The first (and the much more unlikely of the two), MKP is the worst progamer in not only SC2, but in ESPORTS history. After scouting no expo from Z, and a proxy spine (and therefore hatch) at his backdoor, he was surprised that he was getting cheesed when the lings busted in? MVP would do well to let him go as soon as they could. The second, much more plausible explanation, is that he threw the game. Given how unlikely the first explanation is, I would feel like the explanation of match-fixing would easily remove all reasonable doubt and it would do the same for the majority of fans alike. This feels like it is obviously the salient point and that's why I'm annoyed it wasn't specifically addressed in the response from MVP. I really like this post. People seem to forget that by assuming MKP is innocent, they are agreeing with the bolded statement as well. Most common argument I've seen: doing "MKP things" is hilarious. That shows that the people defending him have such little faith in his skill/abilities that it's "okay" to make such mind-numbingly bad decisions in-game, despite being paid to put in thousands of hours to excel at the game? Absolutely disgusting game by progamer standards. By Platinum standards... Why are you guys so salty about it lol. As I've said in my earlier posts, I find it absolutely hilarious that he either threw the game, or played so bad that everyone thought he threw the game. You can't really find games this bad too often, and I always had a good laugh when it happens. Unless you're a fan. I don't get it, you're agreeing with me? I do indeed find it funny that it's possible for people to say "hey, it's fine, MKP's just really really bad." And they're fans? Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 16:40 North2 wrote:
What if...he forgot those destructible rocks can be destroyed by enemies? I've done that before. I'm so tunneled into one thing that I forget about several other important aspects of the game.
That said, your explanation bumped my 8:2 odds up to 15:1 that he was probably throwing the game.
I apologize for being blunt but... that's the reason why you're not in a Proleague team playing a televised match :s
You seriously don't know the difference between BEING really really bad vs. HAVING a really really bad game? Also, since when does being a fan 100% revolve around the player in question not being bad?
Your post comes across very insulting and ignorant.
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On April 22 2015 01:35 ZeroReverse wrote:
It really pains me to see how much blind hate and negativity there is towards this case. In most peoples eyes MK is already guilty, even tho they do not have any means to prove this. Im pretty sure if the statement was "Yea he fixed the match." with just as little evidence, most people would have been satisfied.
This thread right here is what witch hunts were way back - accusations that cannot be proven (by you). Without any actual evidence I believe in the saying "Innocent until proven guilty".
I on the other hand will be sleeping better this night, knowing that the team did not give in under the pressure of enraged (partially) sheepish community.
It pains me to see how blind and naive can people be if they think "there is no actual evidence".
You can sleep better all you want, and call rational people "sheepish" while being totally clueless yourself, but the thing is - even though we dont have "proof beyond reasonable doubt" (highest level of proof), we have enough facts to conclude that the match was fixed with ~85% to 99.9% probability.
Instead of repeating "innocent until proven guilty" over and over without really understanding it, you should google
"Reasonable Doubt V. Balance Of Probability" and educate yourself.
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On April 22 2015 01:35 ZeroReverse wrote:
Without any actual evidence I believe in the saying "Innocent until proven guilty".
How a rational person can look at this and say we have no actual evidence is pretty mind-boggling.
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On April 21 2015 23:29 Quixotic_tv wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 16:14 Volband wrote:On April 21 2015 16:07 magicallypuzzled wrote:On April 21 2015 16:02 Volband wrote:On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote:
I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief. I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case. Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness. assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it. I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake. Sorry, but posts like these make me sick. It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation. It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober. Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener. To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad.
So I'm a jackass because I highly assume he indeed participated in matchfixing, and the explanation which could ruin our reasons for suspicion requires Jesus Christ himself to reg an account here and say we are wrong, while you bashing me (or us) for not bringing 10000000000% evidence. Hate to break it to you, but your world is more twisted than ours (at least based on this argument), and the single thing which could net you followers for your cause is the illusion that you are the good guy who defends justice. It sounds damn good, that we are some evil people from the Middle-Ages who seek to destroy this poor soul, and you demand justice and a perfect evidence, but it is just unreal.
You remind me of white-knights with this mindless defense. There is MKP with a blazing gun in his hand, there is a dead body in front of him, ripped with bullets, and you are the guy who lashes out on me highly assuming he killed the guy with "did you see him shoot? no you did not, end of discussion, move on. what a jerk!!". Yeah, ok.
I don't recommend you to watch or read the news, because it would upset you beyond imagination. People cheat, people lie, people are power and money hungry. People can stab you in the back after knowing them for 10+ years, and let me not go on an off-topic rant about the extremes, because these are just the everyday stuff. The world, where a team investigates its' own posterboy player and comes out with the "innocent" result without actually coming forward with any evidence other than "he said so!" is a joke. Zero. It's actually less than that, because if you have a good PR team, you do so much more than releasing an empty statement X weeks too late. Hell, you - and some others here - manage to reach the conclusion to pooint fingers at me/us for not having enough proof, which just makes it look like some mediocre sketch from a comedy. If I mentioned white-kngiht, I guess it's just fitting to remind you of a certain black-knight who was kind enough to offer tie after his legs and arms were cut off. At least he offered it, but you actually condemn us for not agreeing with a tie. Such bs.
On April 22 2015 01:49 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:35 ZeroReverse wrote:
Without any actual evidence I believe in the saying "Innocent until proven guilty".
How a rational person can look at this and say we have no actual evidence is pretty mind-boggling.
He's not the first, and they are here to say. I wish I studied psychology, because I just want to dissect their minds and know what they thinking and how do they reach these conclusions.
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On April 22 2015 01:43 Mozdk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2015 07:43 Circumstance wrote:On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote:
Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission. Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made. Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it.
What the... they don't have to prove anything, dammit, that's not how this shit works haha. Nor do they have to release a replay that could incriminate them.
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On April 22 2015 01:56 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:43 Mozdk wrote:On April 21 2015 07:43 Circumstance wrote:On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote:
Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission. Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made. Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it. What the... they don't have to prove anything, dammit, that's not how this shit works haha. Nor do they have to release a replay that could incriminate them.
He's talking about the statement. MVP claims they have evidence that Marineking didn't matchfix. They're choosing not to show that evidence.
While I get some evidence isn't mean for the public, why not reveal it to someone trustworthy who's not biased. As it is, it's only the team that has the evidence - the team which wants him to be innocent.
Thus the statement they made doesn't really mean anything (which I expected, and I guess many others did too). But if they had provided the evidence they claim they have then obviously it would've meant a lot.
So they don't have to prove anything, but it's not a reliable source when they're this biased.
edit: also I think we're reaching the closing point of this thread :D
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On April 22 2015 01:59 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:56 ZenithM wrote:On April 22 2015 01:43 Mozdk wrote:On April 21 2015 07:43 Circumstance wrote:On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote:
Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission. Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made. Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it. What the... they don't have to prove anything, dammit, that's not how this shit works haha. Nor do they have to release a replay that could incriminate them. He's talking about the statement. MVP claims they have evidence that Marineking didn't matchfix. They're choosing not to show that evidence. While I get some evidence isn't mean for the public, why not reveal it to someone trustworthy who's not biased. As it is, it's only the team that has the evidence - the team which wants him to be innocent. Thus the statement they made doesn't really mean anything (which I expected, and I guess many others did too). But if they had provided the evidence they claim they have then obviously it would've meant a lot. So they don't have to prove anything, but it's not a reliable source when they're this biased.
Well, you don't know, Kespa could very well have investigated the replay a long time ago and not made any comment on it. They probably can ask for the replay. It's actually interesting because if MVP said "replay doesn't show anything" and Kespa comes out later and say "replay proves he's throwing the game", MVP will really have shat the bed :/
Edit: Sorry, I'm not actually sure that Kespa has the team replays by default, I misspoke, but they can probably ask for it.
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On April 22 2015 02:02 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 01:59 DJHelium wrote:On April 22 2015 01:56 ZenithM wrote:On April 22 2015 01:43 Mozdk wrote:On April 21 2015 07:43 Circumstance wrote:On April 21 2015 07:24 -Kyo- wrote:
Expected as much from this. When you start with a preconceived notion that it is impossible for your player to cheat then you have already made a biased, unfaithful attempt to keep integrity at the forefront of your mission. Are you really going to talk about preconceived notions? Short of his body hanging from a noose with tearstains on his lifeless face, MVP would have gotten this same reaction with ANYTHING they could have released, because minds were made up as soon as an allegation was made. Wrong. If they'd laid down the evidence and proof they claim to have... There would be exactly 0 people arguying that he cheated. Because it would actually be proven that he didn't do it. As it stands, they didn't. They just said something and hoped people would buy it. What the... they don't have to prove anything, dammit, that's not how this shit works haha. Nor do they have to release a replay that could incriminate them. He's talking about the statement. MVP claims they have evidence that Marineking didn't matchfix. They're choosing not to show that evidence. While I get some evidence isn't mean for the public, why not reveal it to someone trustworthy who's not biased. As it is, it's only the team that has the evidence - the team which wants him to be innocent. Thus the statement they made doesn't really mean anything (which I expected, and I guess many others did too). But if they had provided the evidence they claim they have then obviously it would've meant a lot. So they don't have to prove anything, but it's not a reliable source when they're this biased. Well, you don't know, Kespa could very well have investigated the replay a long time ago and not made any comment on it. They do have the replay too. It's actually interesting because if MVP said "replay doesn't show anything" and Kespa comes out later and say "replay proves he's throwing the game", MVP will really have shat the bed :/
Yeah I would love for Kespa to say anything really. But they're also biased, it will hurt the scene whenever all this gets fully revealed. Honestly just mentioning it is bad for them in the short term, so I assume they'll say nothing.
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On April 22 2015 00:51 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 00:41 sushiman wrote:On April 22 2015 00:01 Doodsmack wrote:On April 21 2015 23:29 Quixotic_tv wrote:On April 21 2015 16:14 Volband wrote:On April 21 2015 16:07 magicallypuzzled wrote:On April 21 2015 16:02 Volband wrote:On April 21 2015 15:55 Quixotic_tv wrote:
I don't understand how a community that boasts of being super-enlightened atheists in majority wants to destroy a man's reputation by, well, a belief. I don't understand how can you can still keep up posting while you obviously just skim read a few replies, and even then, you immediately forget the stuff which makes MKP's position very bad in this case. Anyway, don't worry, MKP is destroying his own reputation all right (whether he matchfixed or was "just" superduperduperduper bad), we are just merely assisting and bringing awareness. assisting in that particularly when it isn't proven 100 percent is something I have a really low opinion of. not that I think you care too much just explaining a bit more as to why I have fought so hard as you put it. I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake. Sorry, but posts like these make me sick. It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation. It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober. Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener. To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad. You can be a kid sitting in science class and demand 100% perfect proof if you want, but we already have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The confluence of factors cannot be handwaved away by virtue of not being 100% perfect proof. The betting lines were a result of deliberate betting odds manipulation. The lack of reaper poking around after what he scouted is simply too abnormal. The minimap and the third cc....simply too abnormal. It is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. No, it's not in any way proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What you're saying is that MVP should take the betting lines of a site which provides an in Korea illegal activity as proof that one of their players have thrown a match. The only thing it actually proves is irregular betting, so unless you actually have proof that MK have been in contact with bettors there's nothing available that couldn't be explained by him just playing exceedingly poorly, not looking at the minimap, or misjudging a blip on the map for an OL or whatever. It also excludes the possibility of Byul being a matchfixer as well, or internal leaks of BO's etc. It's not any one thing that provides proof, it's the confluence of factors. The "exceedingly poor" play is in fact inexplicable. The OL theory is invalid by the way, a progamer who's doing nothing but sitting in one base knows that blip is not in his current vision. Do you know how easy it is for even me to macro one base while doing nothing else? It's not hard, and you're not thinking about a million things while doing it. MarineKing knew it was proxy hatch AND DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WITH TWO REAPERS TO FIND A PROXY HATCH. Think about that. He was sitting on one base and did not notice his minimap for over a minute. The betting lines were deliberately manipulated. it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Dear god, no. It is not proof beyond reasonable doubt. How hard is it to understand that all it is is circumstantial evidence? If you don't have any proof of him directly staring on a spinecrawler, message logs or other communication with bettors, you don't have any definite proof. Until you got anything like that, it's all circumstantial and nothing that MVP would be willing to throw MK under the bus for.
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K bro. He thought the spine crawler in the fog of war was an overlord, didn't feel the need to check for a proxy hatch, thought 3 CC is viable vs proxy hatch, took several seconds to notice creep up against his building, and an irrational better deliberately manipulated lines such that he could maximize his profit if MKP lost game 1.
Let's all pretend we can't judge probability.
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EPT
