EPTI smell PBU. I remember someone in the other thread talking about the JD game with ramp block.
MVP's Statement on MarineKing - Page 19
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
I smell PBU. I remember someone in the other thread talking about the JD game with ramp block. | ||
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SnowStormer
Norway275 Posts
On April 21 2015 14:53 Volband wrote: Yeah dude, I bet his mom thinks he's innocent too, so he's pretty solid! Jesus, if your post is not sarcasm, then no wonder things like this can happen. I don't even understand people like you, who straight out refuses to even mention the suspicious betting. What's the point? Why even bother posting? Imagine if everyone mysteriously "forgot" relevant stuff from the story, and people were arguing here whether MKP even played that day or not, haha. After reading through this thread, I'm actually more disappointed in people in general for making BS posts like these, than in MKP. At least he could have reasons I can get behind, like being short on money - still not makes him innocent, obviously -, but fanboyism is no excuse for making posts like these, which eject common sense. /rant You are talking about betting lines as if they are a form of solid proof which can only be explained by match fixing. | ||
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Quixotic_tv
Germany130 Posts
On April 21 2015 16:14 Volband wrote: I did not even want to post here until I saw those two posts. I don't want every single person here to admit that it is more than likely he matchfixed, but those excuses were infuriating and I wanted to make sure that everyone realized how bad they were. So yes, in that way, I'm not letting MKP get away with it, because even if he is innocent, it won't be because his team said so or some bs, and this is deeper than a mere mistake. Sorry, but posts like these make me sick. It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation. It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober. Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener. To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On April 21 2015 23:23 SnowStormer wrote: You are talking about betting lines as if they are a form of solid proof which can only be explained by match fixing. I'm sure they're a damning element, but I like how most people on TL probably didn't even know the term "betting lines" until some betters started explaining how they make a living, and now everyone is shouting "BETTING LINES!" like it's some sort of absolute proof. I'm myself unfortunately convinced that MarineKing matchfixed in this case, but "betting lines" are not a perfect model of real life, goddammit. It's not because a given betting line says someone got less than 1% of winning that the reality carries the same probability distribution. They merely represent an educated guess by other people (betters) as to how the situation should be. | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
-"I totally did not" See? Case closed. Korean Starcraft is legit, matchfixing is a wild, wild conspiracy theory. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On April 21 2015 23:29 Quixotic_tv wrote: They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on. wow... say a boxer enters the ring, keeps his fists down, sticks his chin out and waits for over a minute until his confused opponent decides to knock him the fuck out. Bets are also voided because of extremely abnormal betting on a first round knockout. His coach and family 'grill' him and he said he didn't throw the match. Case closed? Of course he's going to lie to save face and of course those closest to him will defend him. None of this is surprising or reason to move on. | ||
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LA_Morello
Brazil143 Posts
I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start? | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote: Guys, is there a link to the match or something? I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start? Search "pinnacle" you will find all the matches. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?&q=pinnacle | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On April 21 2015 23:29 Quixotic_tv wrote: Sorry, but posts like these make me sick. It's not that you assumed I did not read the whole thread, yet interestingly it's one more dull accusation. It is because you take up your pitchfork due to a mere suspicion. I repeat it again: You can't prove it. Period. I find it suspicious as well, but I don't tell people: "Yep, clearly, that's fraud!" It's simply not what civilized people do. As I said, I am very sure fixed matches exist in highest professional sports, but as long as I can't prove it, I have to keep my mouth shut when I am sober. Look, I can do the same: To me, all of your posts make you suspicious of terrifying cute ducklings. According to your logic, I don't have to prove that, you duckling-frightener. To cut it short, I still think it can be idiocy. If you watch professional sports, idiocies happen. It as well can be a fraud, but that's something we can't tell for sure (I think he would've done it in a less obvious, but that's as well speculation). Shitstorming or pitchforking people is generally a thing that disgusts me. They said they grilled him, he said he didn't do it. OK, we have to move on and conclude the world is bad. You can be a kid sitting in science class and demand 100% perfect proof if you want, but we already have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The confluence of factors cannot be handwaved away by virtue of not being 100% perfect proof. The betting lines were a result of deliberate betting odds manipulation. The lack of reaper poking around after what he scouted is simply too abnormal. The minimap and the third cc....simply too abnormal. It is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
On April 21 2015 23:53 LA_Morello wrote: Guys, is there a link to the match or something? I didn't come in TL for like 3 month and I have absolutely no idea what is happening. Where can I pick this from the start? Just search marineking vs byul on youtube and you will find it. Speaking of vids, it would be nice if someone would make a compilation video of all the facts we have, aiming at people who never heard about the topic, covering : -Trend of Pinnacle voiding bets (what voiding meants, how betting lines work) -Matchfixing being confirmed a big problem @korean leagues by Rekrul/Huk/RichardLewis/ -A pro's/casters opinion on the MKP-Byul game -Briefly explaining the probability theory (what are the odds of that match not being fixed based on the facts we know) I feel like the last bit is important, given how many people are still clueless and convienced that "betting lines mean nothing" and dont realize what a huge impact it has on probability of a match being fixed or not. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On April 21 2015 22:05 Berry_CruncH wrote: Marineking was without a doubt NOT the betting favorite, he has not been playing well for a while now. Not being the betting favorite + large amounts of money being bet on Byul would mean the payout would have been relatively small (which i would think does not outweigh the risk of matchfixing). And honestly this isn't even the most incompetent thing that's happened on a broadcasted match. There was a game where JAEDONG had blocked his own ramp and half his army was stuck and he didn't notice it for almost 10 minutes. And the most important thing is innocent until proven guilty, what we have here is one coincidence. This is purely a witch-hunt there is no real evidence against him from what we know. Come on, that was a game of BW during mixed Proleague where all players were only practicing Starcraft 2. Jaedong didn't lose the game and there were no indicators that something was off with the match from outward sources. Also stuff actually happened in that game, it's not like Jaedong was sitting on 1 base ignoring a pile of hydra's on his ramp. There was nothing going on in MKP's game in contrast. The fact that MKP wasn't the favorite from the get go doesn't mean it isn't still rewarding to invest a huge amount of money knowing it's guaranteed profit. | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
they say they proved he didn't fix? how? show us what proof you're talking about. show us the proof the replay showed that a top korean pro who has been playing the game pretty much all day each day for 5 years not including BW, didn't deliberately ignore a spinecrawler and creep that was on his screen for minutes, which he was also visibly checking on the minimap which can be seen on the player camera. no statement was ever going to convince me because of how obvious it was.. but this was a piss poor attempt imo | ||
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
On April 22 2015 00:01 Doodsmack wrote: You can be a kid sitting in science class and demand 100% perfect proof if you want, but we already have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The confluence of factors cannot be handwaved away by virtue of not being 100% perfect proof. The betting lines were a result of deliberate betting odds manipulation. The lack of reaper poking around after what he scouted is simply too abnormal. The minimap and the third cc....simply too abnormal. It is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. No, it's not in any way proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What you're saying is that MVP should take the betting lines of a site which provides an in Korea illegal activity as proof that one of their players have thrown a match. The only thing it actually proves is irregular betting, so unless you actually have proof that MK have been in contact with bettors there's nothing available that couldn't be explained by him just playing exceedingly poorly, not looking at the minimap, or misjudging a blip on the map for an OL or whatever. It also excludes the possibility of Byul being a matchfixer as well, or internal leaks of BO's etc. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On April 22 2015 00:41 sushiman wrote: No, it's not in any way proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What you're saying is that MVP should take the betting lines of a site which provides an in Korea illegal activity as proof that one of their players have thrown a match. The only thing it actually proves is irregular betting, so unless you actually have proof that MK have been in contact with bettors there's nothing available that couldn't be explained by him just playing exceedingly poorly, not looking at the minimap, or misjudging a blip on the map for an OL or whatever. It also excludes the possibility of Byul being a matchfixer as well, or internal leaks of BO's etc. It's not any one thing that provides proof, it's the confluence of factors. The "exceedingly poor" play is in fact inexplicable. The OL theory is invalid by the way, a progamer who's doing nothing but sitting in one base knows that blip is not in his current vision. Do you know how easy it is for even me to macro one base while doing nothing else? It's not hard, and you're not thinking about a million things while doing it. MarineKing knew it was proxy hatch AND DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WITH TWO REAPERS TO FIND A PROXY HATCH. Think about that. He was sitting on one base and did not notice his minimap for over a minute. The betting lines were deliberately manipulated. it is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11907 Posts
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meatpop_13
8 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing. I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative. This quote out of totalbiscuit blows my mind. The burden of proof is absolutely on the accuser. However, when the accuser has a heaping pile of evidence, it's not unreasonable to expect the defense to have something, anything, more than " Your honor, my client says he didn't do it!" as a counter argument. Proving innocence is not the burden of the defense. However, in the face of significant evidence pointing towards guilt, it does become the burden of the defense to mount something to even the scales if they actually expect anyone unbiased to believe them. | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1128 Posts
2. The Pinnacle lines could've been caused by a stupid bettor/Pinnacle wanting publicity/it doesn't really mean anything. -- This has been explained many, many, many times already. In short: no. The betting lines are evidence that either somebody has inside information or MK threw. And given point #1.... 3. Team MVP investigated him, so he's clean. -- At no point did anybody say they checked MK's bank accounts for suspicious deposits, his Skype logs, interviewed his friends/family/roommates to see if he's been throwing around money he doesn't have, check his mattress for wads of cash, etc. The MVP statement was really nothing more than "we asked him a few times and he assured us he wasn't doing anything wrong!" Well, the CJ Coach trusted SaviOr and didn't think he was matchfixing either... And finally: 4. There is not enough evidence to convict him. Nobody is saying lock him up now and throw away the key. We are clamoring for KeSPA and Blizzard to investigate thoroughly instead of sweeping this under the rug. I say that anybody who cares for this to be resolved, email KeSPA, Proleague, and major sponsors, and tell them that you're not going to watch any more games until this matter is resolved. | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
On April 22 2015 01:03 Nebuchad wrote: "They should have released the replay so that everyone can stick to their positions into one more thread!" Please. Replay will be huge. At minimum, it would be easy to see 1) did he see the spine or not 2) when he saw a creep @his base. Implying that replay would not be heplfull and "will only result in more debates" is flat our retarded. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
Can someone lock this now, everyone goes in loops. Only thread on this should be when they release the replay. | ||
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