EPTPinnacle voids Soulkey vs Creator bets - Page 13
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19386 Posts
On April 16 2015 02:43 Tuhill wrote: I don't think you should bother replying. The guy is probably baiting to get a thread lock. I need 23 more pages first! | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On April 16 2015 02:41 Disarmed wrote: until now i thought that you're just really angry for whatever reason and are too emotionally invested to discuss anything rationally but with this post you have proven that you don't have the slightest single clue what the fuck you are talking about. In a court of law you have to prove something has been done to find someone guilty in your example. You would need witnesses or evidence to put the person at the place of the crime. If you dont have this you need physical evidence such as fingerprints on a gun, or video footage. You then need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that everything you say happened, happened. All I have proven is that I understand basic procedure. You however are just looking for someone who doesn't agree with you to attack. | ||
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Darthsanta13
United States564 Posts
On April 16 2015 02:46 sushiman wrote: Well, do you honestly find that surprising when bettors are the ones behind matchfixing to start with? It's quite ironic to say people should be more trusting about people betting on the game that's under scrutiny due to betting gone wrong. ~~ That's not fair though, there are bad apples in every group and you're implicating an entire group based on the actions of some individuals. Swoopae or Pinnacle are not involved in any shady business at all. But people still think that betting==evil and disregard everything they have to say and question their motives. I should mention too that by your logic we shouldn't be trusting any progamers either because some progamers are involved in match fixing. | ||
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
or is it now in the hands of pinnacles betting alogrithmes who gets an instant ban from SC2 or not? I totally understand what that means for the sport and the scene, SC2 is not the only sport where match fixing is happening. but at the end you need at least something like a money transfer, or someone who talks ect., SOMETHING more than a betting line. its not hard for me to believe this match was fixed. but what are the consequences? would you go as far as banning someone from all tournaments forever, because you saw a betting line? | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On April 16 2015 02:52 Darthsanta13 wrote: That's not fair though, there are bad apples in every group and you're implicating an entire group based on the actions of some individuals. Swoopae or Pinnacle are not involved in any shady business at all. But people still think that betting==evil and disregard everything they have to say and question their motives. I should mention too that by your logic we shouldn't be trusting any progamers either because some progamers are involved in match fixing. Gambling is a business based on taking advantage of people. That is simply a fact. A lot of businesses are run that way and that's all well and good. There is nothing wrong with people being skeptical of releases from businesses who operate on morally shaky ground. That's human nature. EDIT: No one is going to take the point of that, they're going to argue that "morally shaky ground" is my own opinion. But you need to realize people are not going to believe gamblers, plain and simple. | ||
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
On April 16 2015 02:52 Darthsanta13 wrote: That's not fair though, there are bad apples in every group and you're implicating an entire group based on the actions of some individuals. Swoopae or Pinnacle are not involved in any shady business at all. But people still think that betting==evil and disregard everything they have to say and question their motives. I should mention too that by your logic we shouldn't be trusting any progamers either because some progamers are involved in match fixing. In no way did I say that all bettors are involved in matchfixing. But without people betting on the game, you wouldn't have matchfixing. There's bound to be distrust against the group of people that instigate it, no matter if it's only a few bad apples. I pointed out the irony that we should trust people involved in betting when the betting sites are the prime reason matchfixing exists in the first place. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On April 15 2015 23:07 Rekrul wrote: The fixes have been in since the very beginning of SC2, the BW fixing scandal didn't deter anyone. It may have actually made the problem bigger because it was huge advertising for the fact that you can bet on these kind of things online illegal very easily in Korea (online illegal betting has grown to be HUGE in Korea since then). Matchfixing is impossible to detect if done correctly. The only reason pinnacle is voiding these matches is because someone in the fixing ring is really dumb/greedy and leaking/selling information to too many people who then in turn tell more and more then too much money goes in on the match making it obvious to the sports books that there's a fix. A common way that they make money off their matches is to bet on 'game will end under x minutes' (a popular prop bet on korean betting sites) and then they do an all-in build where they'll win or lose under that time frame 100%. That way they still have a chance to win and get paid win or lose. Matchfixing exists and continues to exist in all sports and games that you place bets on, it's just always going to happen. You can't demonize KESPA for not investigating and trying to do something about it, because frankly theres really nothing they can do without putting themselves out of business. You can't really demonize players either because unless theres a huge breakthrough of evidence or admission of guilt all evidence will be circumstantial. Take MKP's loss for example; the evidence that he threw that match is overwhelming (and I believe he did throw that), but it's not 100% provable. Though I do wish KESPA would release that replay so we can see FPV if he actually looked at the spine or not. Funnily enough, when a match gets fixed these things happen: 1. The progamer who's semi-famous and on TV but still making dogshit money actually gets some cash. 2. The sportsbooks who are the roots of these problems lose some money. 3. Vast majority of people don't notice. A small percentage of the fans who are smart enough to realize the truth are dissapointed but even most of them just enjoy the drama or don't care LOL We can close the thread then? | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
I'd like to know if TL's stand is "we're not going to comment, because we don't know what's going on" or "our site will die along with the scene if we speak our minds, so we keep quiet"? I think it's a legit question also to ask, although for obvious reasons you can't really expect answers. | ||
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Disarmed
Austria721 Posts
On April 16 2015 02:53 phil.ipp wrote: but lets be honest, even if these betting lines give a strong suspicion, at the end there has to be more than that ? or is it now in the hands of pinnacles betting alogrithmes who gets an instant ban from SC2 or not? I totally understand what that means for the sport and the scene, SC2 is not the only sport where match fixing is happening. but at the end you need at least something like a money transfer, or someone who talks ect., SOMETHING more than a betting line. its not hard for me to believe this match was fixed. but what are the consequences? would you go as far as banning someone from all tournaments forever, because you saw a betting line? you don't get it. i didn't hear anybody say that somebody should be instantly banned because of the line movement but the line movement is a very strong indication that there is match-fixing going on if you know anything about statistics is that enough to ban players? No. But is that enough to start an investigation that could possibly provide the sort of evidence that people like you would be content with (chat logs, confessions, money transfer data...)? Yes. i think the majority of people here are more or less convinced that there is fixing but the real tragedy is that there seems not to be ANY REACTION. | ||
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Disarmed
Austria721 Posts
On April 16 2015 02:54 LongShot27 wrote: Gambling is a business based on taking advantage of people. That is simply a fact. A lot of businesses are run that way and that's all well and good. There is nothing wrong with people being skeptical of releases from businesses who operate on morally shaky ground. That's human nature. EDIT: No one is going to take the point of that, they're going to argue that "morally shaky ground" is my own opinion. But you need to realize people are not going to believe gamblers, plain and simple. please, ffs, stop talking, it is getting unbearable. i'm off, you are most definitely not worth that i get banned but that is what would happen next if i said what's on my mind. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3048 Posts
I'm out of popcorn. Someone help me? | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19386 Posts
On April 16 2015 03:04 Jarree wrote: I wonder if TL is going to take a stand in this? I'm quite sure R1ch for example understands what is going on just based on the betting lines, even if he has no background in gambling he seems to be quite analytical person. I'd like to know if TL's stand is "we're not going to comment, because we don't know what's going on" or "our site will die along with the scene if we speak our minds, so we keep quiet"? I think it's a legit question also to ask, although for obvious reasons you can't really expect answers. I don't speak for TL, but I will use my experience on TL during the BW match fixing scandal. TL is not responsible for what happened in Korea during the BW scandal and speaking out against it would have no effect, therefore it remained a discussion among its users and nothing more. Presently, the hand of TL does extend further in SC2 because we have a professional team in the sport unlike during the Brood War Era. Honestly, I don't believe TL needs to speak out or is thinking "our site will die". The voice of TL has always been through its users. This forum is a platform for all viewers to become vocal about what goes on in the competitive scene. Teamliquid is providing that for you. If you want paid staff to have an official stance then I recommend you go to TLPro and write a well thought out and persuasive plea to them. TL is a culmination of its users and it's voice is most powerful when it's users speak up with well thought out and informed arguments for everyone to read. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19386 Posts
On April 16 2015 03:16 supernovamaniac wrote: Shit, I'm out of popcorn. Someone help me?  | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
It is salty I hope? | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3048 Posts
Not big enough. btw, TL's voice is usually opinions from its users, but there are times where mod posts/notes are just too biased that it's hard to say that TL doesn't have voice of its own. | ||
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elwoodng
Singapore438 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19386 Posts
On April 16 2015 03:20 supernovamaniac wrote: Not big enough. btw, TL's voice is usually opinions from its users, but there are times where mod posts/notes are just too biased that it's hard to say that TL doesn't have voice of its own. What you're saying is we need the modding equivalent to chill's casting. | ||
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Darthsanta13
United States564 Posts
On April 16 2015 02:54 LongShot27 wrote: Gambling is a business based on taking advantage of people. That is simply a fact. A lot of businesses are run that way and that's all well and good. There is nothing wrong with people being skeptical of releases from businesses who operate on morally shaky ground. That's human nature. EDIT: No one is going to take the point of that, they're going to argue that "morally shaky ground" is my own opinion. But you need to realize people are not going to believe gamblers, plain and simple. What I'm trying to get at is that people should open their minds and think about whether this really is "morally shaky ground" or not in the first place. I question whether it's fair to characterize gambling as a business based on taking advantage of people. It's true that gambling is a zero-sum game with winners and losers, but that's also true of any form of competition. I don't gamble but I think that a lot of people who do would argue that they don't do it to take advantage of other people, but instead to compete against the general public, to prove that they are more capable of predicting winners and losers than anyone else. There's certainly a whole lot of skill that goes into that, and I think it's unfair to characterize people who enjoy that pastime as morally shaky. I agree that there are some gambling businesses that deserve the "morally shaky label" you give them, but I think writing off the entire idea of gambling and everyone involved as morally shaky is unfair. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On April 16 2015 03:25 BisuDagger wrote: What you're saying is we need the modding equivalent to chill's casting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gDGf1G6mxQ I can't wait | ||
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