On April 12 2015 00:18 Sioras wrote: The cost is just way too much, zerg doesnt have anything vs storms anymore, We are basicly a Terran with no ghosts, so fucking stupid, only thing viable for us to do is just muta switches, and that will become so predictable after like a week, or just a "Brood lord all in" as avilo says, it's basicly an all in cause they get 6 tempest out, the game is over, no other way, so dumb....
zerg never had anything against storm... look at BW lol
zerg had imba defilers. cannot compare (don't think you can say vipers count as was awkward to build protoss units with feedback into standard army comp back then (dark archon only?))
although this change may suck for zergs right now, i think it's important for the future of sc2 to patch the mass-swarmhost styles out of existence then re-balance other zerg units around what is left. (although I am biased as it was the mass-swarmhost styles that caused me to take a several month break from this game)
Removing the mass SwarmHost style is only half the answer, you have to also find a way to remove the skytoss/turtleMech styles, or make them way harder to get.
I´m afraid that this is gonna be even worse than the dreaded "queen patch"..
I'm afraid that you really are just unsure of what you are talking about... The "Queen Patch" was much needed, remember SlayerS killing everyone with hellions? ...
Aka the "patch which almost killed the game, and would have surely done so if HotS didn't arrive just in the nick of time". Nah, who am I kidding, Roro vs Symbol was just the best GSL finals ever.
I´m afraid that this is gonna be even worse than the dreaded "queen patch"..
I'm afraid that you really are just unsure of what you are talking about... The "Queen Patch" was much needed, remember SlayerS killing everyone with hellions? ...
Aka the "patch which almost killed the game, and would have surely done so if HotS didn't arrive just in the nick of time". Nah, who am I kidding, Roro vs Symbol was just the best GSL finals ever.
Some people are happy only when they see TvT everyday.
I'm curious if we'll see a huge uptick in mech vs. Zerg. It's already pretty common, but presumably it's gonna be much moreso after this patch. I'm pessimistic, but I'm curious to see what the Koreans will do with this change.
On April 14 2015 00:25 sparklyresidue wrote: I'm curious if we'll see a huge uptick in mech vs. Zerg. It's already pretty common, but presumably it's gonna be much moreso after this patch. I'm pessimistic, but I'm curious to see what the Koreans will do with this change.
It depends on the maps. Some of them are just so bad for mech there's no point in trying because you'll die before you create an army Zerg will struggle with. On Vaani I can totally see mech becoming even more prevalent, for example.
I´m afraid that this is gonna be even worse than the dreaded "queen patch"..
I'm afraid that you really are just unsure of what you are talking about... The "Queen Patch" was much needed, remember SlayerS killing everyone with hellions? ...
Aka the "patch which almost killed the game, and would have surely done so if HotS didn't arrive just in the nick of time". Nah, who am I kidding, Roro vs Symbol was just the best GSL finals ever.
Some people are happy only when they see TvT everyday.
I can tolerate a 2-race game (even when Terran is not in the mix), but end of 2012 was just way too one-sided. If Zerg is now as weak as people believe, we might have at least 2-race balance, which is not good, but better than locusts vs locusts fests.
I´m afraid that this is gonna be even worse than the dreaded "queen patch"..
I'm afraid that you really are just unsure of what you are talking about... The "Queen Patch" was much needed, remember SlayerS killing everyone with hellions? ...
Aka the "patch which almost killed the game, and would have surely done so if HotS didn't arrive just in the nick of time". Nah, who am I kidding, Roro vs Symbol was just the best GSL finals ever.
Some people are happy only when they see TvT everyday.
I can tolerate a 2-race game (even when Terran is not in the mix), but end of 2012 was just way too one-sided. If Zerg is now as weak as people believe, we might have at least 2-race balance, which is not good, but better than locusts vs locusts fests.
Protoss won 13 Premier tournaments after the queen patch, Zerg 14. (12 to 14 runner ups). Maybe with some advantages for Zerg at the GSL level. It was a two race game which was (and would be if it happened again) really bad.
I´m afraid that this is gonna be even worse than the dreaded "queen patch"..
I'm afraid that you really are just unsure of what you are talking about... The "Queen Patch" was much needed, remember SlayerS killing everyone with hellions? ...
Aka the "patch which almost killed the game, and would have surely done so if HotS didn't arrive just in the nick of time". Nah, who am I kidding, Roro vs Symbol was just the best GSL finals ever.
Some people are happy only when they see TvT everyday.
I can tolerate a 2-race game (even when Terran is not in the mix), but end of 2012 was just way too one-sided. If Zerg is now as weak as people believe, we might have at least 2-race balance, which is not good, but better than locusts vs locusts fests.
Protoss won 13 Premier tournaments after the queen patch, Zerg 14. (12 to 14 runner ups). Maybe with some advantages for Zerg at the GSL level. It was a two race game which was (and would be if it happened again) really bad.
You can always find some kind of metric to disprove my 1-race claim, and I can always find a metric that supports it, so I won't play that game I'd like to add that I would indeed be fine with only TvT though. :D
I´m afraid that this is gonna be even worse than the dreaded "queen patch"..
I'm afraid that you really are just unsure of what you are talking about... The "Queen Patch" was much needed, remember SlayerS killing everyone with hellions? ...
Aka the "patch which almost killed the game, and would have surely done so if HotS didn't arrive just in the nick of time". Nah, who am I kidding, Roro vs Symbol was just the best GSL finals ever.
Some people are happy only when they see TvT everyday.
I can tolerate a 2-race game (even when Terran is not in the mix), but end of 2012 was just way too one-sided. If Zerg is now as weak as people believe, we might have at least 2-race balance, which is not good, but better than locusts vs locusts fests.
There has been no locust vs locust fest going on in SC2. Zerg was not nerfed based on zerg being too strong. That is why many zerg´s are mad about this patch. Edit: Numbers Big J gave seem pretty clear to me. Zerg was dominant but not alone.
Since the last patch, Zerg hasn't won much, certainly less than Terran, Zerg also hasn't been overrepresented at top leagues, it's mostly Life doing anything , the patch was meant to address foreign SH style that was seen as "boring" .
Korean pro balance got messed up, because foreign zergs like to turtle, and only terran/protoss players should be able to turtle!
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV?
On April 12 2015 23:23 Lunchador wrote: The new swarm host is ah, um... underwhelming? Fills you with regret for making them now? Makes you question the meaning of life? I thought their new functionality seemed pretty cool on paper, but it's really, really hard to justify their cost vs what they are capable of, especially when an attack is inbound and your locusts are on cooldown. Worst feeling ever.
This is a ladder team game with my friends where I personally witness their new "prowess". Granted, in hindsight there actually are better ways to control them as I learn toward the end... I'm still full of regrets. But I hope this entertains you!
there not as bad as you might think. You just need to baby sit them more. Of course they are going to get crushed if you send 10 swarm host worth of locust at an entire army. I dont understand what you expect them to do. Near the end you did use them correctly and broke the mini siege tank line. They are just tactical now instead of "lemme build swarm host then I can macro for 5 minutes until the enemy can mount some sort of counter
And how do you expect zergs to justify using 2000 gas for harass units? You should replace the word tactical with horrible vs everything that does not contain anti air or aoe damage. In the current state of the game where zerg needed to use swarm hosts as a tool which allowed them to actually play longer games without going into 4 base broodlord all ins or 3 base roach hydra all ins. The 100/200 and 4 supply for the new swarm hosts is not going to help much versus a turtling mech army or skytoss with templars. Maybe if they decrease cost to 100/175-150 and supply to 3 it might be a viable unit to use for harassment but as it stands should zerg really dedicate that much gas and supply for harassment ONCE EVERY MINUTE?
I'd say there's no justification for that much gas, but also that making 10 swarm hosts for 2000 gas is probably a lot of overkill now. The locusts themselves do a lot more damage than they used to against non-armored targets since they lowered the cooldown to a puny 0.6 seconds. Each locust now hits about as hard as a banshee at 20 DPS (in fact, they're almost exactly the same in terms of damage stats). You only need 5 swarm hosts to take down an undefended hatchery in roughly 8 seconds: 5 swarm hosts * 2 locusts each * (12 attack - 1 armor) / 0.6s cooldown * 8.2 seconds = 1500+ damage. Which is about what you'd expect to happen if you sent 10 banshees to kill a hatchery. 3 swarm hosts will take down the hatchery undisturbed in 14 seconds, though at lower numbers you have to start accounting for travel time since the locusts will time out.
On April 12 2015 23:23 Lunchador wrote: The new swarm host is ah, um... underwhelming? Fills you with regret for making them now? Makes you question the meaning of life? I thought their new functionality seemed pretty cool on paper, but it's really, really hard to justify their cost vs what they are capable of, especially when an attack is inbound and your locusts are on cooldown. Worst feeling ever.
This is a ladder team game with my friends where I personally witness their new "prowess". Granted, in hindsight there actually are better ways to control them as I learn toward the end... I'm still full of regrets. But I hope this entertains you!
there not as bad as you might think. You just need to baby sit them more. Of course they are going to get crushed if you send 10 swarm host worth of locust at an entire army. I dont understand what you expect them to do. Near the end you did use them correctly and broke the mini siege tank line. They are just tactical now instead of "lemme build swarm host then I can macro for 5 minutes until the enemy can mount some sort of counter
And how do you expect zergs to justify using 2000 gas for harass units? You should replace the word tactical with horrible vs everything that does not contain anti air or aoe damage. In the current state of the game where zerg needed to use swarm hosts as a tool which allowed them to actually play longer games without going into 4 base broodlord all ins or 3 base roach hydra all ins. The 100/200 and 4 supply for the new swarm hosts is not going to help much versus a turtling mech army or skytoss with templars. Maybe if they decrease cost to 100/175-150 and supply to 3 it might be a viable unit to use for harassment but as it stands should zerg really dedicate that much gas and supply for harassment ONCE EVERY MINUTE?
I'd say there's no justification for that much gas, but that making 10 swarm hosts for 2000 gas is probably a lot of overkill now. The locusts themselves do a lot more damage than they used to against non-armored targets since they lowered the cooldown to a puny 0.6 seconds. Each locust now hits about as hard as a banshee at 20 DPS (in fact, they're almost exactly the same in terms of damage stats). You only need 5 swarm hosts to take down an undefended hatchery in roughly 8 seconds: 5 swarm hosts * 2 locusts each * (12 attack - 1 armor) / 0.6s cooldown * 8.2 seconds = 1500+ damage. Which is about what you'd expect to happen if you sent 10 banshees to kill a hatchery. 3 swarm hosts will take down the hatchery undisturbed in 14 seconds, though at lower numbers you have to start accounting for travel time since the locusts will time out.
The thing is they can't even be a harassment unit without the upgrade. Imagine if reapers had to get an upgrade to jump up cliffs or banshees can't fly without an upgrade. What makes Blizzard think that Zerg can afford to spend this much time, money, and supply in the midgame on a pure harassment unit?
so what they did: - redesigned unit, that played major role in the game - did not change almost anything else for same race/other races - redesigned the unit by copying what was proposed for the next expansion (so, not a lot of thinking behind, but also, just taking the unit from completely different expansion makes it ridiculous)
they could have done anything - nerfing the abilities, changing costs, heck, even redesigning the unit, but in a completely different from LotV way. What they actually did is very weak and sad.
I´m afraid that this is gonna be even worse than the dreaded "queen patch"..
I'm afraid that you really are just unsure of what you are talking about... The "Queen Patch" was much needed, remember SlayerS killing everyone with hellions? ...
Aka the "patch which almost killed the game, and would have surely done so if HotS didn't arrive just in the nick of time". Nah, who am I kidding, Roro vs Symbol was just the best GSL finals ever.
Some people are happy only when they see TvT everyday.
I can tolerate a 2-race game (even when Terran is not in the mix), but end of 2012 was just way too one-sided. If Zerg is now as weak as people believe, we might have at least 2-race balance, which is not good, but better than locusts vs locusts fests.
That was a result of the power of infestors only. Queen buff has stopped the "hellion pressure" suddenly becoming a game ending move just because of a queen out of position.
If infestors were nerfed into the current hots infestors, the whole mid game would had been completely different and also far easier to deal with.
On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote: Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV?
I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now.
The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch.
It's obvious that every nerf brings up frustration and whine. Can we simply wait a bit more? In the start of HotS hardly anyone wanted use SH and even half a year ago even Zergs hated them, but used them because they needed to. If the changes aren't enough, we will most likely see another adjustment. I'm glad blizzard doesn't focus only on LotV. I only hope they don't forget about HotS now and react in 1-2 months in a good direction (if necessary). Well, if they don't do anything after such a big change and leave the game by itself like in the end of WoL, all the hate is justified. But not atm
EPT
