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On April 11 2015 11:23 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +Oonepril 10 2015 23:13 Tyrhanius wrote:On April 10 2015 22:07 ZenithM wrote:On April 10 2015 21:21 Tyrhanius wrote:
It's so funny to see some people argue that having free units is OP and instant shot not. Free units are just weakert ! Having a unit as attack means you can kill it before it hits you, imagine if you can kill collossus lazer ? Do you consider that as a buff ?! Lol. You can run away from unit, forcefield them etc... It's indeed not surprising the SH game are this long as you need a lot of wave to do dmg, and people complains : OMG SH OP SO BORING ! Just compare 30SH who win in 45min-2Hours and the same cost of protoss 10 collossus +30 zealots that win on 2seconds!!! OMG REMOVE SH SO OP, DEATHBALL FINE.
It's just silly that they even nerf SH to make it even more cost uneffective and expensive while dealing dmg even slower (less waves per minuted) ! Sry to then consider people who think it's a good change, as or not enough skilled to talk about balance or else incredibly biased P or T mecher ! Colossus beams don't have range 30 though. They don't fly neither, so medivac better than colossus right ? Your comparison of colossus and swarm host as siege units is valid (quite unlike your trolling about medivac), and I just added that the swarm host's big advantage over the colossus, which you completely forgot, is the huge range. If locusts had just enough life to reach range 10 or so, it would have to be rebalanced, obviously. But reading your initial post, I realize now that I may have missed the troll.
you just miss the point. Sure they have more range, but your : "they have more range, so they're better" is just a sophism, following this you can say : " medivacs fly, collosus don't, so medivac are better than collossus" it's just as false as your argumentation.
Collossus are far superior than SH at killing grounds units even " their range" are not the same. Aslo speaking about 30 range is aslo a biased argument as locust range is 3 they don't shoot at 30, but they can travel around sh with a limited speed and you can kite them contrary with collossus which do instant dmg at a real 6-9 range.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
Infact, playing SH vs protoss in my opinion was way harder than any other style, and put way more strain on the zerg player than anything. You basically got fucked in every which way for 50 minutes and then MAYBE you had a chance to win.
Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings.
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On April 11 2015 21:06 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Infact, playing SH vs protoss in my opinion was way harder than any other style, and put way more strain on the zerg player than anything. You basically got fucked in every which way for 50 minutes and then MAYBE you had a chance to win.
Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings.
Maybe you and other PROS should read this thread as many think Z will have no problem without SH. Just spamm vipers etc.
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On April 11 2015 21:18 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 21:06 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Infact, playing SH vs protoss in my opinion was way harder than any other style, and put way more strain on the zerg player than anything. You basically got fucked in every which way for 50 minutes and then MAYBE you had a chance to win.
Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings. Maybe you and other PROS should read this thread as many think Z will have no problem without SH. Just spamm vipers etc.
Not sure about ZvT but in ZvP, the swarm hosts had a key role in dealing with the protoss army.
Say you have hydras, vipers, and broodlords. If you try to snipe the hts with hydras, they will die to colossi. If you try to snipe them with broodlords, they will have to get within tempest range and die. Etc.etc. Obviously you can't engage without zoning out hts because otherwise they can just feedback all your vipers and storm everything else. Only locusts worked because you went forward with the overseer/viper cloud while the locust wave was getting closer to the protoss army, so that when the protoss player tried to feedback, he had to expose his hts to the locust wave. The big difference is that even if you lost all your locusts it didn't matter because they are free. You can't afford to trade real units in the same way.
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On April 11 2015 21:31 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 21:18 RaFox17 wrote:On April 11 2015 21:06 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Infact, playing SH vs protoss in my opinion was way harder than any other style, and put way more strain on the zerg player than anything. You basically got fucked in every which way for 50 minutes and then MAYBE you had a chance to win.
Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings. Maybe you and other PROS should read this thread as many think Z will have no problem without SH. Just spamm vipers etc. Not sure about ZvT but in ZvP, the swarm hosts had a key role in dealing with the protoss army. Say you have hydras, vipers, and broodlords. If you try to snipe the hts with hydras, they will die to colossi. If you try to snipe them with broodlords, they will have to get within tempest range and die. Etc.etc. Obviously you can't engage without zoning out hts because otherwise they can just feedback all your vipers and storm everything else. Only locusts worked because you went forward with the overseer/viper cloud while the locust wave was getting closer to the protoss army, so that when the protoss player tried to feedback, he had to expose his hts to the locust wave. The big difference is that even if you lost all your locusts it didn't matter because they are free. You can't afford to trade real units in the same way.
I agree that this is gonna be a problem. It´s gonna be storming without the SH. I´m afraid that this is gonna be even worse than the dreaded "queen patch". We will know in the coming weeks when pros figure out what this patch really means.
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Serral has played really well without swarm hosts but how far is he going to get with that? 
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Just played my first game after the balance patch and... wtf? They changed the map pool before the ladder season is over? <.<
I was reallly confused, suddenly playing on Cactus Valley. <.< That map is great by the way.
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On April 11 2015 22:36 Elentos wrote:
Just played my first game after the balance patch and... wtf? They changed the map pool before the ladder season is over? <.<
I was reallly confused, suddenly playing on Cactus Valley <.<
I think that they have changed that so pros could practice on ladder for WCS qualifiers. I remember that Beastyqt complained about map pool not being updated and it had old maps while WCS was supposed to be played on new ones. And day after that they have updated the map pool.
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On April 11 2015 22:41 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 22:36 Elentos wrote:
Just played my first game after the balance patch and... wtf? They changed the map pool before the ladder season is over? <.<
I was reallly confused, suddenly playing on Cactus Valley <.< I think that they have changed that so pros could practice on ladder for WCS qualifiers. I remember that Beastyqt complained about map pool not being updated and it had old maps while WCS was supposed to be played on new ones. And day after that they have updated the map pool.
So then why'd they prolong the ladder season by a week? Originally it was supposed to end on April 6th. That means there was literally no point in making it go another week. Not like their distribution update caused a huge influx of changes that warranted 7 more days. <.<
It's great for the pros, obviously.
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On April 11 2015 16:36 teodoreh wrote:
One of the worst patches ever. Blizzard literally copied a LotV unit and did paste it on HotS after two (2) years of no major balance changes.
Swarm Host wasn't just nerfed, it was butchered. All those changes in cost, in spawning cooldown and in autocast is like Blizzard saying "Please don't use SH anymore"! Problem is, there's no alternative. LotV SH can be an acceptable harass unit simply because there are two (2) new units that will counter death-of-ball armies. Blizzard nerfed SH on HotS without adding something else. Viper is not an option because it means you have to go Hive tech and invest tons of gas. And even if you build several vipers, ZvTmech is a nightmare since Terran can mass produce 150/75 Vikings (the cheaper flier there is) and wipe your Vipers with their 9 range.
SH was only a problem on PvZ because Zerg player had a zero APM unit pushing Protoss. But if that's the case why allowing other autocast units like Widow Mines exist? On INnoVation vs Life (IEM Katowice), INnoVation won the series by mass producing WMs and getting lucky detonations, it was a zero apm unit vs skill race, same thing on a smaller scale happened at some point at Polt vs Hydra. I haven't seen Blizzard nerfing WMs!
And ofc, the question that everybody is thinking: Why Blizzard waited 2 whole years in order to make such a drastic gameplay change? As I have said before, Blizzard doesn't care for gameplay or gaming experience of the average player. It only cares about profit and their precious PRO scene. If they cared, they would had created a RTS gameplay like Starbow's, not a RTS gameplay like R-Type. They care for fast-paced games and exciting battles for stream audience. They care about their 400 APM Koreans. SH wars weren't quite "exciting". And since HotS is a "end of life" product, Blizzard is moving on to LotV by burning the land behind.
It's so sad that I have to totally agree with this. If it was questionable whether SH will be used at all in LotV, it is clear that it will not be used in HotS, because of said reasons. And while in LotV it would be acceptable, because there are other units that can take its role, it hardly is as of now. It's like suddenly Blizzard introduced the LotV version of the Colossus, only even more nerfed than it will be in LotV.
They have basically removed the SH from the game (just as they are removing the Colossus in LotV, as it stands, btw).
Also, it's just personal opinion, but I actually quite liked SH-games in ZvP, and as said before, it wasn't like super imbalanced for either race.
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On April 11 2015 23:05 Sholip wrote:
it wasn't like super imbalanced for either race.
Locusts are free units that spawn every 30? seconds and are affected by upgrades.
To deal with these free waves of units that can actually do a lot of DPS in large numbers, Protoss needs AoE which comes in either Collossi or HT form which are both very gas intensive, or go air, which again is gas intensive and can then be countered by the Zerg massing up Corruptors
At least Terrans had tank walls to deal with locusts.
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On April 11 2015 23:29 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2015 23:05 Sholip wrote:
it wasn't like super imbalanced for either race. Locusts are free units that spawn every 30? seconds and are affected by upgrades. To deal with these free waves of units that can actually do a lot of DPS in large numbers, Protoss needs AoE which comes in either Collossi or HT form which are both very gas intensive, or go air, which again is gas intensive and can then be countered by the Zerg massing up Corruptors At least Terrans had tank walls to deal with locusts.
Both Protoss and Terran had their "free" ways of dealing with these free units. Terran had PDD, which is basically free (once you have a lot of ravens). Protoss had mothership cloak. With that, you could prevent almost all damages from locust, unless the zerg player decided to commit on engaging or at least abducting a few units, with overseers mixed in with corruptors/vipers to provide detection. However once you reached a good amount of tempests (30?) it became hard for the zerg player to trade efficiently, even with abducts.
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On April 11 2015 21:06 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Infact, playing SH vs protoss in my opinion was way harder than any other style, and put way more strain on the zerg player than anything. You basically got fucked in every which way for 50 minutes and then MAYBE you had a chance to win.
Void ray charge lot a move style, mech, and skytoss is broken right now without sh, zerg has nothing, just allins/timings.
I am so fucking happy to hear this from a pro of your caliber.
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The cost is just way too much, zerg doesnt have anything vs storms anymore, We are basicly a Terran with no ghosts, so fucking stupid, only thing viable for us to do is just muta switches, and that will become so predictable after like a week, or just a "Brood lord all in" as avilo says, it's basicly an all in cause they get 6 tempest out, the game is over, no other way, so dumb....
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On April 12 2015 00:18 Sioras wrote:
The cost is just way too much, zerg doesnt have anything vs storms anymore, We are basicly a Terran with no ghosts, so fucking stupid, only thing viable for us to do is just muta switches, and that will become so predictable after like a week, or just a "Brood lord all in" as avilo says, it's basicly an all in cause they get 6 tempest out, the game is over, no other way, so dumb....
zerg never had anything against storm...
look at BW lol
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With this changes sadly many zergs gona quit, what is sad for the ladder, this changes to SH maybe is a good thing to the healthy of the game, but is a big detriment to the late game zerg, what could say is the strong fase of the zerg for the remax, inclusive zerg has the most weakest late game in terms of power of units. If before average players had hard , now gona be the extintion of zergs, =(.
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Did blizzard fail really hard with the tempest damage change? They said they wanted to affect PvP as little as possible, but because colossus has 1 base armor, 8 tempests let a colossus without defensive upgrades live with 3 hps.
http://gyazo.com/383b7d7c8e24a502bffa8eb7fe582900
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All that Z needs to fight off Protoss DeathBalls or TerranMech in the endgame is Defilers. True Story since 1998. But well, why relying on a unit that has proven to be effective in a decade of BroodWar, when we can have FLYING LOCUSTS instead?
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I'll try again. Are all spawns possible on the new maps?
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On April 12 2015 12:28 Mozdk wrote:
I'll try again. Are all spawns possible on the new maps?
Yes.
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EPT
