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comparing SH to attacks, facepalm!
First of all, the locusts are very tanky. So they not only dish out dps as high as hydra, but also absorb damage and prevent opponent's army from advancing.
can a marine stay at the same place infinitely and dish out unlimited damage? I don't think so. You need to kite, medivac to heal, micro and split to avoid baneling hits. and yes, that marine will die at some point and needs to be replenish with resources, unlike locusts.
I think all protosses would love to have collosus that shoots out free stalkers, and terrans would love tanks that shoots out free marauders. because according to your logic, free-units = attacks right?
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Oh wow, they should really change the swarmhost walking animation. Swarmhosts on creep look really stupid now. Flying locust look pretty cool though
MY LOCUST WILL BLOT OUT THE SUN
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lS73DrQ.jpg)
In reality though, with 4 supply and 200 gas they are really expensive. With the very long cooldown I'm not convinced we'll see these in larger groups than 6-8 for harassment. And even then 1600 gas buys you a lot of other good stuff.
Also the 'flying swoop' has to be used on a point a bit away from the current locust position to give them slightly more range as they travel forward/downward very fast
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It's so funny to see some people argue that having free units is OP and instant shot not. Free units are just weaker ! Having a unit as attack means you can kill it before it hits you, imagine if you can kill collossus lazer ? Do you consider that as a buff ?! Lol. You can run away from unit, forcefield them etc... It's indeed not surprising the SH game are this long as you need a lot of wave to do dmg, and people complains : OMG SH OP SO BORING ! Just compare 30SH who win in 45min-2Hours and the same cost of protoss 10 collossus +30 zealots that win on 2seconds!!! OMG REMOVE SH SO OP, DEATHBALL FINE.
It's just silly that they even nerf SH to make it even more cost uneffective and expensive while dealing dmg even slower (less waves per minuted) ! Sry to then consider people who think it's a good change, as or not enough skilled to talk about balance or else incredibly biased P or T mecher !
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I find it funny how people vote approve on the tempest change. As if it does something other than killing PvP lategame. Oh well, gonna enjoy my free wins against zerg and mech once I get past the 20th minute mark I suppose.
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On April 10 2015 21:28 KingAlphard wrote:
I find it funny how people vote approve on the tempest change. As if it does something other than killing PvP lategame. Oh well, gonna enjoy my free wins against zerg and mech once I get past the 20th minute mark I suppose.
It's also stupid that actually you can make a balance change for ZvP without affecting PvP with some +dmg vs mecanical massif or +shield dmg but they don't.
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On April 10 2015 21:28 KingAlphard wrote:
I find it funny how people vote approve on the tempest change. As if it does something other than killing PvP lategame. Oh well, gonna enjoy my free wins against zerg and mech once I get past the 20th minute mark I suppose.
It gives you huge timing windows with Broodlords if the Protoss didn't go for a Voidray style initially. And those styles aren't that strong these days, they often get destroyed in the midgame.
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I like the changes, especially for swarm hosts, but it should have been done way back, i guess it's better late than never i guess ..
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On April 10 2015 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 21:28 KingAlphard wrote:
I find it funny how people vote approve on the tempest change. As if it does something other than killing PvP lategame. Oh well, gonna enjoy my free wins against zerg and mech once I get past the 20th minute mark I suppose. It gives you huge timing windows with Broodlords if the Protoss didn't go for a Voidray style initially. And those styles aren't that strong these days, they often get destroyed in the midgame.
You don't need tempest to deal with broodlord, they're slow and you can avoid fighting them and trade/base multitask them easier than vs SH (cf showtime vs Kane). Also void style is still pretty viable, MC did it on oligoleague vs a kespa zerg and crush his hydra timing easily with some sentry and photon overcharge, then win easily in late game vs SH.
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On April 10 2015 21:21 Tyrhanius wrote:
It's so funny to see some people argue that having free units is OP and instant shot not. Free units are just weaker ! Having a unit as attack means you can kill it before it hits you, imagine if you can kill collossus lazer ? Do you consider that as a buff ?! Lol. You can run away from unit, forcefield them etc... It's indeed not surprising the SH game are this long as you need a lot of wave to do dmg, and people complains : OMG SH OP SO BORING ! Just compare 30SH who win in 45min-2Hours and the same cost of protoss 10 collossus +30 zealots that win on 2seconds!!! OMG REMOVE SH SO OP, DEATHBALL FINE.
It's just silly that they even nerf SH to make it even more cost uneffective and expensive while dealing dmg even slower (less waves per minuted) ! Sry to then consider people who think it's a good change, as or not enough skilled to talk about balance or else incredibly biased P or T mecher !
Colossus beams don't have range 30 though.
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On April 10 2015 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 21:28 KingAlphard wrote:
I find it funny how people vote approve on the tempest change. As if it does something other than killing PvP lategame. Oh well, gonna enjoy my free wins against zerg and mech once I get past the 20th minute mark I suppose. It gives you huge timing windows with Broodlords if the Protoss didn't go for a Voidray style initially. And those styles aren't that strong these days, they often get destroyed in the midgame.
What killed them in the midgame was hydra pushes that crippled the protoss players economy, if it did not work the zerg would transition into swarm hosts to play a macro game from there. That hydra push designed to punish a protoss that would go for air is now more all in than ever. The zerg will no longer be able to go into SH + static to defend vs the follow up push.
I think once players get used to this turtle air styles are going to be quite strong for protoss.
As for broodlords. Broodlords are still going to be there for an all in push, as soon as the protoss gets aoe and tempest they are still going to be cost in-effective vs most late game protoss compositions. I should also mention that broodlords are slower and more vulnerable than SHs used to be.
This patch will either make protoss air styles really strong or give zerg a super strong all in with broodlords.
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I wish seeker missiles would have energy and damage reduced to make them more usable and micro intensive. I might just start blindly making them in every matchup in defiance.
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Italy12248 Posts
What made mass void ray/templar openers weak wasn't midgame timings (which you can defend with good play and some help from the map), but the fact that you had a late robo and almost no ability to move on the map (short of trying a snipe+recall on a hatch) for a very long time. This gives a SH player really easy access to 4-5 bases, hive tech and a huge bank; it's basically the complete opposite of 3base blink which shuts down the extra bases so well. Void ray/templar might come back, but the tradeoff of doing that vs actually being able to be on the map and pressuring is pretty steep, so i'm not 100% convinced. It's possible it will be a pretty map-dependant strategy.
The major change in PvZ i think will be the fact that while Swarm Hosts made a Zerg extremely hard if not impossible to break, Broodlords (which are likely to replace SH in the late game) do the opposite and open a major timing for the Protoss. The end result is (likely) going to be either more 3base timings from either the Protoss, trying to hit before Broodlords ala 2012, or even the Zerg himself, trying to be as ahead as possible before switching to Hive to close the timing window.
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I approve of these changes, but isn't it weird to release a patch like this in the middle of Code A?
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On April 10 2015 22:48 Thax wrote:
I approve of these changes, but isn't it weird to release a patch like this in the middle of Code A?
Korean leagues are startgin too soon. it affected S2SL too, today was Day 4 for this league.
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Italy12248 Posts
It's been known for months that the patch would be released after WCS finals and at the start of the new ladder season, so i don't think it's a big deal.
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On April 10 2015 22:07 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 21:21 Tyrhanius wrote:
It's so funny to see some people argue that having free units is OP and instant shot not. Free units are just weaker ! Having a unit as attack means you can kill it before it hits you, imagine if you can kill collossus lazer ? Do you consider that as a buff ?! Lol. You can run away from unit, forcefield them etc... It's indeed not surprising the SH game are this long as you need a lot of wave to do dmg, and people complains : OMG SH OP SO BORING ! Just compare 30SH who win in 45min-2Hours and the same cost of protoss 10 collossus +30 zealots that win on 2seconds!!! OMG REMOVE SH SO OP, DEATHBALL FINE.
It's just silly that they even nerf SH to make it even more cost uneffective and expensive while dealing dmg even slower (less waves per minuted) ! Sry to then consider people who think it's a good change, as or not enough skilled to talk about balance or else incredibly biased P or T mecher ! Colossus beams don't have range 30 though.
They don't fly neither, so medivac better than colossus right ?
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On April 10 2015 21:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 21:28 KingAlphard wrote:
I find it funny how people vote approve on the tempest change. As if it does something other than killing PvP lategame. Oh well, gonna enjoy my free wins against zerg and mech once I get past the 20th minute mark I suppose. It gives you huge timing windows with Broodlords if the Protoss didn't go for a Voidray style initially. And those styles aren't that strong these days, they often get destroyed in the midgame.
Hence why I said past the 20th minute mark.
Colossi void ray still works fine, just mass blink stalkers is better so everyone plays that.
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On April 10 2015 23:24 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 10 2015 21:28 KingAlphard wrote:
I find it funny how people vote approve on the tempest change. As if it does something other than killing PvP lategame. Oh well, gonna enjoy my free wins against zerg and mech once I get past the 20th minute mark I suppose. It gives you huge timing windows with Broodlords if the Protoss didn't go for a Voidray style initially. And those styles aren't that strong these days, they often get destroyed in the midgame. Hence why I said past the 20th minute mark. Colossi void ray still works fine, just mass blink stalkers is better so everyone plays that.
well, you're comments were contradicting each other to begin with. My comment was a reply to your first part, where you say that it doesn't matter. I say it does matter.
The second part of your comment then actually indicates that it does matter, unless you think that so far lategame PvZ has already been a freewin.
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On April 10 2015 23:51 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 23:24 KingAlphard wrote:On April 10 2015 21:37 Big J wrote:On April 10 2015 21:28 KingAlphard wrote:
I find it funny how people vote approve on the tempest change. As if it does something other than killing PvP lategame. Oh well, gonna enjoy my free wins against zerg and mech once I get past the 20th minute mark I suppose. It gives you huge timing windows with Broodlords if the Protoss didn't go for a Voidray style initially. And those styles aren't that strong these days, they often get destroyed in the midgame. Hence why I said past the 20th minute mark. Colossi void ray still works fine, just mass blink stalkers is better so everyone plays that. well, you're comments were contradicting each other to begin with. My comment was a reply to your first part, where you say that it doesn't matter. I say it does matter. The second part of your comment then actually indicates that it does matter, unless you think that so far lategame PvZ has already been a freewin.
Ok. It does matter in the specific situation of a "broodlord timing attack". In the other situations it doesn't matter.
But do you think that you can execute a broordlord timing in every single game? Not really, especially if the protoss player is always playing aggressive.
Even then, I'm not sure if it will be that popular. Before the patch broodlord timings were a joke (although they could work if not scouted until basically the moment they arrive), now I suppose they will be "average", or at least definitely not as strong as scv pulls for example.
Past some point, every protoss will build tempests anyway because they are powerful in general, and broodlords will still suck against them.
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On April 10 2015 18:40 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2015 18:29 shin_toss wrote:On April 10 2015 18:20 opisska wrote:On April 10 2015 17:49 shin_toss wrote:On April 10 2015 15:28 opisska wrote:On April 10 2015 15:18 starslayer wrote:On April 10 2015 15:10 opisska wrote:
"Listening to the community" - hooray!!
Do you idiots understand that this is all YOUR FUCKING FAULT? That Blizzard did this only because you stupid whiny bitches who kept spouting nonsense about SH games being "not entertaining" enough for your useless little brains? Great, so now the game gets adapted to your majestic ADHD 5-minute attention span, because the average "fan" can't handle anything that goes on for more than that.
God, this is so stupid. Anything, really ANYTHING interesting Blizzard comes up with is crushed into the ground by this "
"community" of "experts" with "opinions". Everything that is not exactly the same boring shit again and again is either "inbalanced", "bad design" (lol at "design" in general anyway, it's just a buzzword every idiot nowadays uses to sound smart) or "boring" or "bad for the game".
I can't really imagine Blizzard coming up with anything interesting for LoTV. They have been forced to give up on the only really radical change in HoTS, why would they even try anymore? They will probably just make BW in 3D to make the five people who still care about BW (but produce thousands of posts each) happy and everyone will go play a stupid MOBA or an even more stupid card game anyway.
Everything nice gets destroyed by idiots. Real life has broken into SC2. Fuck you all. LOL someones upset they cant go mass swarmhost anymore. LOL it was boring and bad design and needs to just be removed from the game. Also vipers are really really really good in zvt and zvp try getting more then 2-3 more like 7-9 and figure it out then crying all day i bet you said the same when the infestor got changed come on if you really think that swarmhost was good for the game then theres no hope for you. Oh God, sorry, I dare to have an opinion that is not approved by the Council of Great Minds of TL, so there is no hope for me! Yes, I "play" Zerg, but I am a lousy player, I play mostly 2v2 for fun here and there and I very rarely ever built SHs, because they are so fucking difficult to use correctly! (Surprising, heh? You probably heard a tousand times how they are noob simple easytowin unit and thus think it's true because that's what you sheeps do.) But you apparently know me better then I do, so this is all just made up! You know what I do a lot? I watch the fucking game! And I happened to love watching long complex SH games in particular. Yes, they are not "dynamic" enough, because they take more time than taking a shit and that's about how long the average "sc2 fan" is able to keep his eyes open between his weed and his booze apparently. But they are awesome, it's like a TV series when people gradually come up with ways to combat the SH and have to actually make difficult decisions. The super-late-game with bases mined out, where there are no build orders, no thousand-times-practices situations and just split decisions and difficult questions, that's the most intruiging part of the whole thing. Not clicking fanatically to do the same rush for the milionth time - THAT's boring. And now we have the most interesitng part of the game taken away and every idiot celebrates. What a day to be alive! the butthurt is strong in this one. This change has been long overdue.. seriously a unit that spawns unlimited mini hydras is hard to use? lol Before you ever post on this topic again, you need to find some high-level games where the SH player lost and try to analyze why did that happen. Hint: pro-gamers usually do not lose because they are "noob" or because they have "no skill". no one said its unbeatable. the point is Its UNLIMITED which favors the zerg heavily in late game .. coz u know.. protoss and terran units actually costs Minerals. It did not favors zerg heavily in late game, that's the point, and statistics shown that the game was at a very balanced state, even in the late game. The whole point of the stalemate was that it was that the power of both armies was pretty much equal, preventing both to commit into an attack. As for the free unit argument, I always found not really relevant: Locust are just the attack of the SwarmHost and that's all, they dissapear after a short moment so they are not really "free units", you do not pay when colossi shoot lasers, why would you when your SH attack?
They aren't just attacks because
1. They can be controlled
2. They attackable and absorbs damage
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EPT
