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On April 14 2015 20:38 helius788 wrote:
It's obvious that every nerf brings up frustration and whine. Can we simply wait a bit more?
In the start of HotS hardly anyone wanted use SH and even half a year ago even Zergs hated them, but used them because they needed to. If the changes aren't enough, we will most likely see another adjustment.
I'm glad blizzard doesn't focus only on LotV. I only hope they don't forget about HotS now and react in 1-2 months in a good direction (if necessary). Well, if they don't do anything after such a big change and leave the game by itself like in the end of WoL, all the hate is justified. But not atm
Problem is that ladder win/rates will continue to be close to 50/50, which confuses David Kim, and therefore he opts to delay the balance patch for several months (if history is any indicator).
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On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch.
BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is).
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On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is).
I agree with you.
However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change.
The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea.
Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame.
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Since I know exactly that this is targeting my comment further above I will respond, even though I know I shouldn't and we should stop beating dead horses and stirring up Starcraft racism through historical discussions. But I really want to defend myself when someone calls me "too biased to make an opinion".
On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch.
You know, that crap is why people are "defending" BL/Infestor in the sense of saying it wasn't as bad as doomsayers are claiming.
Let me dissect your comment:
Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored
Yes, but midgame was hugely protoss favored. For Zerg there were only like 1-2 good ways to win the game through aggression in the midgame (most famously the roach max build), while Protoss had a platilion of aggressive strategies of 2-3bases between 8 and 15mins to take the game, many of them working very well despite being scouted (most famously the Sentry/Immortal allin).
The ZvP matchup in WoL was extreme bullshit. Zergs died left and right to allins that they knew were coming and Protoss died left and right to the same imbalanced lategame composition that they knew it was coming.
A quantitative evalution shows that Zerg had only a small if not even neglectible advantage in most statistics like Premier wins and winrates over Protoss overall.
With the same foundation that people like you bitch about broken BL/Infestor lategame in ZvP of that era, Zergs would have every right to bitch about broken Protoss allins of that time, often even additionally fueled by broken maps like Ohana. (and god we did bitch about it and often still do)
and zvt was unwinnable for a year
This is the same crap as when Zergs say that TvZ is unwinable right now. No, it wasn't "unwinable". But you basically had a timeline that you expected a well playing opponent going for a certain style to reach and then win. But interaction in the early game and midgame have always made a huge part of the game and good players will always just take wins by outplaying their opponent in the one or other aspect. That was true back then and will be true regardless of how this SH patch turns out.
TvZ was obviously the biggest balance problem back then. 43% winrate is really bad. But it also means that out of 10games, Terrans won 4 to 5 on average. That's really low and imbalanced in Starcraft, but it is still far away from anything where you can say it is unwinable for equally skilled players.
The balance was shittier than the blink era
That is an assumption without evidence. During the blink era from Dear winning WCS Korea in October 2013 to Pigbaby winning WCS America (July 2014) - so in 8-9months, Protoss won 16 of 24 Premier Tournaments, including 3 WCS KR/GSL titles. From the queen patch in May 2012 to Jan 2013 - so in 8-9months, Zerg won 14 of 32 Premier Tournaments including 3GSL titles.
I'm not sure what causes this distortion of time that makes people believe that the Zerg dominance was so much longer and stronger, but my guess is that it has a lot to do with how the eras started. With Zerg, it was first the ghost patch after which many Terrans already called TvZ broken and then the Queen patch. Zerg was considered broken from that moment on. On the other hand, with Protoss it was more gradually. When Dear took his two titles the discussions about Protoss balance didn't immidiately start. Only when in early 2014 Protoss started winning everything the calls for patches started, but we were already midway in the blink era then.
Ergo, the Zerg dominance is felt as at least 8-9months, but since BL/Infestor was around for months before that with calls to nerfs, often is even extended in people's minds. The Protoss dominance on the other hand is rather only felt as 5-6months and everything happening before 2014 is felt like it wasn't part of it, because it wasn't being discussed too much.
In particular, Zergs did quite well against Protoss at that time, even if they didn't have the same success. (an interesting anitthesis to BL/Infestor days, where Protoss had quite some success, but many people considered them to not do well against zerg)
games took 30 minutes at least
That's just not true. Back in the days there were some stats floating around with the average winrate per gamelength of the matchups, and the average game length was like 12mins. Which only makes sense if we assume that many Ts and Ps tried to win before 15mins or die trying, and many players died relatively quickly after BL/Infestor was out.
Even more it showcases how you didn't even understand the strategy behind BL/Infestor. BL/Infestor against Terran was a timingbased strategy, designed to hit a Terran when he either couldn't have 2-3starports to pump enough vikings from 3-4bases. Or to hit after Ultralisks, when a Terran had been forced to make marauders and then the techswitch killed him. Actual camping on BL/Infestor was a much weaker option that was only taken when a Terran opponent tried to aggressively take down the Zerg instead of teching to starports. Especially on bigger maps BL/Infestor wasn't even that strong, but, before widow mines and the medivac boost bigger maps like Whirlwind favored Zerg a lot in the midgame, making mutalisk and ultralisk based plays that much better.
In fact, the whole fuss about the queen patch in ZvT was that Zergs could hit you so early with Hive tech. Ultra tech was often out around 13mins (Stephano/DIMAGA style double upgrade, no baneling, no spire, fast Ultralisk) and Broodlord timings of an undisturbed zerg could hit around 15mins (talking about the prolevel of course).
Also in general, if you get bored by 30minutes blizzard time, which is like 20 minutes, then I'm not sure if the Strategy Game genre is the right place for you. Even in a very fast paced RTS like Starcraft, just two well playing players will always make it so that games can potentially get that long or even much longer. Even without Swarm Hosts or Broodlords or anything.
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On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame.
SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating.
But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up.
For instance:
Remove PDDS/ravens from the game,
give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech,
Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore.
Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball.
Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go.
These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death.
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On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death.
You think blizzard would actually make big changes like this? SC2 has been blob of death vs blob of death since the beginning, it's honestly not going to change at this point.
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On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. + Show Spoiler +
SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating.
But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up.
For instance:
Remove PDDS/ravens from the game,
give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech,
Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore.
Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball.
Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go.
These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death.
And how'd you buff Terran to compensate for the Protoss changes? Stalkers are really strong vs bio until enough marauders and medivacs are out, but the medivacs often get delayed so you don't just die to blink all-ins. If stalkers get better, how does Terran cope with that? If you just buff 'em, what does Zerg do?
Doing this now just doesn't work, but the removal of deathballs seems to be what's happening for LotV considering the colossus nerf and disruptors punishing Protoss deathballs and mech turning into a more mobile comp via cyclones.
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On April 14 2015 22:42 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. + Show Spoiler +
SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating.
But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up.
For instance:
Remove PDDS/ravens from the game,
give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech,
Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore.
Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball.
Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go.
These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death.
And how'd you buff Terran to compensate for the Protoss changes? Stalkers are really strong vs bio until enough marauders and medivacs are out, but the medivacs often get delayed so you don't just die to blink all-ins. If stalkers get better, how does Terran cope with that? If you just buff 'em, what does Zerg do? Doing this now just doesn't work, but the removal of deathballs seems to be what's happening for LotV considering the colossus nerf and disruptors punishing Protoss deathballs and mech turning into a more mobile comp via cyclones.
as I said, buff gateway units, not warpgate units which means that a) blink stalker allins wont be as strong if the reinforcement is to be warped in and b) theres no longer a need for MSC, which means that early aggression is an option against P and it also means that blink allins would have to come with a robo for highground vision.
Im sure someone whos more into TvP could help me out with a decent change/rebalance as Im not familiar with the timings of the matchup, especially not with the LotV economy.
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On April 14 2015 22:38 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death. You think blizzard would actually make big changes like this? SC2 has been blob of death vs blob of death since the beginning, it's honestly not going to change at this point.
considering the fact that blizzard is doing radical changes to sc2 as we know it in LotV, yeah I think blizzard would/could do it.
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On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death.
I think you are diverging a bit too much now, and pointing towards a BW-part 2 of SC2.
Now focusing on the SwarmHost topic, the cost of them now makes them really unviable and uncomfortable to go as fighters to keep up with mech. MarineLord vs Stephano (a very experienced SwarmHost player) yesterday at qualifier showed it quite well. The new SH is a god-like DPS harass, but simply inefficent as a core unit. Any Zerg player with half a brain would go with a flock of mutas over 6-8 SH to harass, considering their cost. Mutas and Locusts have the same counters.
Also new locust fucntionality is nothign but Broodlord imitation. They move at 1.88 speed (slightly faster than BL, ideal BroodLord speed, BL campaign speed), and drop units with decent DPS against lines of static units, since mobile units can just ran away.
Flying locusts weren't a bad idea. We simply need the Campaign SwarmHost unit approach (less DPS, more spammeable locusts, more mobile). Flying locusts with an air-to-ground attack and bonus speed would be better since they are quite harder to counter than ground ones (Colossus out, Hellbats out, Tanks out), but at the same time less hardcountering since they don't cause friendly fire on tanks and also would deal far less damage.
Support DPS (Not capital), mobility, safety of use, antiturtle mechanic, reasonable cost... that things would make a "core" unit for Zerg.
We need to remove "terrible terrible damage" and very high risk/potential efficiency from the design of most units, at least the ones we want to be quite standard.
Regarding your BW-part 2 suggestions:
Turtle mech happens because econ wise, there is no problem with it (not like in BW, where you could just get a big advantage over turtles by expanding since workers don't pair). The goliath you are talking about is the Viking (almost same stats in everything) and the Valkyrie is the Thor, which is also very useful at soaking damage and countering Ultralisks. So old units are 80% present. And Valkyries weren't very common in BW.
Econ is the change we need for LotV and BW one is a natural antiturtle plus having very interesting perks (easier comebacks, expander advantage).
Protoss Deathball happens because no-deathballing is shit or suicide, considering the DPS/efficiency of the gateway army. The design of some units (Colossus, Void Rays) and the dependence on AoE and Forcefields also helps the deathball even more. Also because units tend to move quite slowly, resulting in a handicapped clumped army . VoidRays were transformed into deathball units with their speed upgrade removal and the DPS increase in HotS.
However, I wouldn't call a Phoenix/Gateway army a Deathball, for example. But Phoenix/Colossus is.
Protoss was not given very flexible units, they left inneficient ones to compensate with the need of extreme hardcountering units. We need some rework in that aspect.
BTW, if you look at LotV streams, Protoss is nothing deathball now.
Dragoons are pointless in SC2, we have stalkers that can use blink (having a very skill-demanding mechanic that allows them to survive and keep the global DPS up since they don't die) and Immortals. In any case, buff Stalker's DPS (which is quite shitty) and rework the immortal to be flexible and not so hardcountering. Stalker stats are not very different from Dragoon's ones except on vs armored, were Stalkers are weaker, and a bit less of HP. The problem of the Gateway army is vs light masseable units (lings, marines). That's why we are going to have Adepts in.
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On April 14 2015 23:05 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death. I think you are diverging a bit too much now, and pointing towards a BW-part 2 of SC2. Now focusing on the SwarmHost topic, the cost of them now makes them really unviable and uncomfortable to go as fighters to keep up with mech. MarineLord vs Stephano (a very experienced SwarmHost player) yesterday at qualifier showed it quite well. The new SH is a god-like DPS harass, but simply inefficent as a core unit. Any Zerg player with half a brain would go with a flock of mutas over 6-8 SH to harass, considering their cost. Mutas and Locusts have the same counters. Also new locust fucntionality is nothign but Broodlord imitation. They move at 1.88 speed (slightly faster than BL, ideal BroodLord speed, BL campaign speed), and drop units with decent DPS against lines of static units, since mobile units can just ran away. Flying locusts weren't a bad idea. We simply need the Campaign SwarmHost unit approach (less DPS, more spammeable locusts, more mobile). Flying locusts with an air-to-ground attack and bonus speed would be better since they are quite harder to counter than ground ones (Colossus out, Hellbats out, Tanks out), but at the same time less hardcountering since they don't cause friendly fire on tanks and also would deal far less damage. Support DPS (Not capital), mobility, safety of use, antiturtle mechanic, reasonable cost... that things would make a "core" unit for Zerg. We need to remove "terrible terrible damage" and very high risk/potential efficiency from the design of most units, at least the ones we want to be quite standard. Regarding your BW-part 2 suggestions: Turtle mech happens because econ wise, there is no problem with it (not like in BW, where you could just get a big advantage over turtles by expanding since workers don't pair). The goliath you are talking about is the Viking (almost same stats in everything) and the Valkyrie is the Thor, which is also very useful at soaking damage and countering Ultralisks. So old units are 80% present. And Valkyries weren't very common in BW. Econ is the change we need for LotV and BW one is a natural antiturtle plus having very interesting perks (easier comebacks, expander advantage). Protoss Deathball happens because no-deathballing is shit or suicide, considering the DPS/efficiency of the gateway army. The design of some units (Colossus, Void Rays) and the dependence on AoE and Forcefields also helps the deathball even more. Also because units tend to move quite slowly, resulting in a handicapped clumped army . VoidRays were transformed into deathball units with their speed upgrade removal and the DPS increase in HotS. However, I wouldn't call a Phoenix/Gateway army a Deathball, for example. But Phoenix/Colossus is. Protoss was not given very flexible units, they left inneficient ones to compensate with the need of extreme hardcountering units. We need some rework in that aspect. BTW, if you look at LotV streams, Protoss is nothing deathball now. Dragoons are pointless in SC2, we have stalkers that can use blink (having a very skill-demanding mechanic that allows them to survive and keep the global DPS up since they don't die) and Immortals. In any case, buff Stalker's DPS (which is quite shitty) and rework the immortal to be flexible and not so hardcountering. Stalker stats are not very different from Dragoon's ones except on vs armored, were Stalkers are weaker, and a bit less of HP. The problem of the Gateway army is vs light masseable units (lings, marines). That's why we are going to have Adepts in.
One of the big problems is that leaving units outside your base in SC2 amounts to throwing them away. Every race has very fast and murderous units that do terrible terrible damage, so if your army isn't bigger, you lose it. It's as simple as that. And if you lose a big chunk of your army, the enemy is at your doorstep in seconds, leaving you very dead.
You can't move out of your base (except for the fastest units, which is usually a small portion of your army, a harass force), because there is always a risk your opponent has the bigger and better army. So the natural course of action is just to wait until you're maxed and then move out because at least then your opponents army can't be bigger. That coupled with the fact that having more than 3 bases does almost nothing extra for your economy leads to the deathballing 3base play.
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On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
Remove PDDS/ravens from the game,
give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech,
You can't take out an spellcaster and give a non-spellcaster unit for terran, the race that uses spellcasters the least of all 3 races.
A good useful spellcaster for aggressive strategies should do, something with more speed and without PDD, maybe with another type of spell.
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On April 14 2015 22:54 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 22:38 solidbebe wrote:On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death. You think blizzard would actually make big changes like this? SC2 has been blob of death vs blob of death since the beginning, it's honestly not going to change at this point. considering the fact that blizzard is doing radical changes to sc2 as we know it in LotV, yeah I think blizzard would/could do it.
LotV theory crafting doesn't really have a place in this thread. We have to deal with the game as it is now and not as we want it to be. So all your suggestions are just distracting from discussion on the recent patch. They may have merit, but it's not the right place to discuss them here.
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On April 14 2015 23:20 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 23:05 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death. I think you are diverging a bit too much now, and pointing towards a BW-part 2 of SC2. Now focusing on the SwarmHost topic, the cost of them now makes them really unviable and uncomfortable to go as fighters to keep up with mech. MarineLord vs Stephano (a very experienced SwarmHost player) yesterday at qualifier showed it quite well. The new SH is a god-like DPS harass, but simply inefficent as a core unit. Any Zerg player with half a brain would go with a flock of mutas over 6-8 SH to harass, considering their cost. Mutas and Locusts have the same counters. Also new locust fucntionality is nothign but Broodlord imitation. They move at 1.88 speed (slightly faster than BL, ideal BroodLord speed, BL campaign speed), and drop units with decent DPS against lines of static units, since mobile units can just ran away. Flying locusts weren't a bad idea. We simply need the Campaign SwarmHost unit approach (less DPS, more spammeable locusts, more mobile). Flying locusts with an air-to-ground attack and bonus speed would be better since they are quite harder to counter than ground ones (Colossus out, Hellbats out, Tanks out), but at the same time less hardcountering since they don't cause friendly fire on tanks and also would deal far less damage. Support DPS (Not capital), mobility, safety of use, antiturtle mechanic, reasonable cost... that things would make a "core" unit for Zerg. We need to remove "terrible terrible damage" and very high risk/potential efficiency from the design of most units, at least the ones we want to be quite standard. Regarding your BW-part 2 suggestions: Turtle mech happens because econ wise, there is no problem with it (not like in BW, where you could just get a big advantage over turtles by expanding since workers don't pair). The goliath you are talking about is the Viking (almost same stats in everything) and the Valkyrie is the Thor, which is also very useful at soaking damage and countering Ultralisks. So old units are 80% present. And Valkyries weren't very common in BW. Econ is the change we need for LotV and BW one is a natural antiturtle plus having very interesting perks (easier comebacks, expander advantage). Protoss Deathball happens because no-deathballing is shit or suicide, considering the DPS/efficiency of the gateway army. The design of some units (Colossus, Void Rays) and the dependence on AoE and Forcefields also helps the deathball even more. Also because units tend to move quite slowly, resulting in a handicapped clumped army . VoidRays were transformed into deathball units with their speed upgrade removal and the DPS increase in HotS. However, I wouldn't call a Phoenix/Gateway army a Deathball, for example. But Phoenix/Colossus is. Protoss was not given very flexible units, they left inneficient ones to compensate with the need of extreme hardcountering units. We need some rework in that aspect. BTW, if you look at LotV streams, Protoss is nothing deathball now. Dragoons are pointless in SC2, we have stalkers that can use blink (having a very skill-demanding mechanic that allows them to survive and keep the global DPS up since they don't die) and Immortals. In any case, buff Stalker's DPS (which is quite shitty) and rework the immortal to be flexible and not so hardcountering. Stalker stats are not very different from Dragoon's ones except on vs armored, were Stalkers are weaker, and a bit less of HP. The problem of the Gateway army is vs light masseable units (lings, marines). That's why we are going to have Adepts in. One of the big problems is that leaving units outside your base in SC2 amounts to throwing them away. Every race has very fast and murderous units that do terrible terrible damage, so if your army isn't bigger, you lose it. It's as simple as that. And if you lose a big chunk of your army, the enemy is at your doorstep in seconds, leaving you very dead. You can't move out of your base (except for the fastest units, which is usually a small portion of your army, a harass force), because there is always a risk your opponent has the bigger and better army. So the natural course of action is just to wait until you're maxed and then move out because at least then your opponents army can't be bigger. That coupled with the fact that having more than 3 bases does almost nothing extra for your economy leads to the deathballing 3base play.
"If your army isn't bigger, you lose it". What's wrong with that? Makes sense to me. And with defenders advantage, equal sized armies clashing at your base should hardly result in the loss of your entire army. "...because there is always a risk your opponent has a bigger and better army." I really don't understand your argument. You act like it's a sin for an opponent to have a bigger army than you. And what the dickfuckers is wrong with 3 base play? That's basically the highest amount of bases a Protoss or a Terran ever gets in a game. And you're just straight wrong about a 4th base not having an impact on your economy. I'm trying to decide if this is a joke post or not...
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On April 15 2015 00:35 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 23:20 solidbebe wrote:On April 14 2015 23:05 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death. I think you are diverging a bit too much now, and pointing towards a BW-part 2 of SC2. Now focusing on the SwarmHost topic, the cost of them now makes them really unviable and uncomfortable to go as fighters to keep up with mech. MarineLord vs Stephano (a very experienced SwarmHost player) yesterday at qualifier showed it quite well. The new SH is a god-like DPS harass, but simply inefficent as a core unit. Any Zerg player with half a brain would go with a flock of mutas over 6-8 SH to harass, considering their cost. Mutas and Locusts have the same counters. Also new locust fucntionality is nothign but Broodlord imitation. They move at 1.88 speed (slightly faster than BL, ideal BroodLord speed, BL campaign speed), and drop units with decent DPS against lines of static units, since mobile units can just ran away. Flying locusts weren't a bad idea. We simply need the Campaign SwarmHost unit approach (less DPS, more spammeable locusts, more mobile). Flying locusts with an air-to-ground attack and bonus speed would be better since they are quite harder to counter than ground ones (Colossus out, Hellbats out, Tanks out), but at the same time less hardcountering since they don't cause friendly fire on tanks and also would deal far less damage. Support DPS (Not capital), mobility, safety of use, antiturtle mechanic, reasonable cost... that things would make a "core" unit for Zerg. We need to remove "terrible terrible damage" and very high risk/potential efficiency from the design of most units, at least the ones we want to be quite standard. Regarding your BW-part 2 suggestions: Turtle mech happens because econ wise, there is no problem with it (not like in BW, where you could just get a big advantage over turtles by expanding since workers don't pair). The goliath you are talking about is the Viking (almost same stats in everything) and the Valkyrie is the Thor, which is also very useful at soaking damage and countering Ultralisks. So old units are 80% present. And Valkyries weren't very common in BW. Econ is the change we need for LotV and BW one is a natural antiturtle plus having very interesting perks (easier comebacks, expander advantage). Protoss Deathball happens because no-deathballing is shit or suicide, considering the DPS/efficiency of the gateway army. The design of some units (Colossus, Void Rays) and the dependence on AoE and Forcefields also helps the deathball even more. Also because units tend to move quite slowly, resulting in a handicapped clumped army . VoidRays were transformed into deathball units with their speed upgrade removal and the DPS increase in HotS. However, I wouldn't call a Phoenix/Gateway army a Deathball, for example. But Phoenix/Colossus is. Protoss was not given very flexible units, they left inneficient ones to compensate with the need of extreme hardcountering units. We need some rework in that aspect. BTW, if you look at LotV streams, Protoss is nothing deathball now. Dragoons are pointless in SC2, we have stalkers that can use blink (having a very skill-demanding mechanic that allows them to survive and keep the global DPS up since they don't die) and Immortals. In any case, buff Stalker's DPS (which is quite shitty) and rework the immortal to be flexible and not so hardcountering. Stalker stats are not very different from Dragoon's ones except on vs armored, were Stalkers are weaker, and a bit less of HP. The problem of the Gateway army is vs light masseable units (lings, marines). That's why we are going to have Adepts in. One of the big problems is that leaving units outside your base in SC2 amounts to throwing them away. Every race has very fast and murderous units that do terrible terrible damage, so if your army isn't bigger, you lose it. It's as simple as that. And if you lose a big chunk of your army, the enemy is at your doorstep in seconds, leaving you very dead. You can't move out of your base (except for the fastest units, which is usually a small portion of your army, a harass force), because there is always a risk your opponent has the bigger and better army. So the natural course of action is just to wait until you're maxed and then move out because at least then your opponents army can't be bigger. That coupled with the fact that having more than 3 bases does almost nothing extra for your economy leads to the deathballing 3base play. "If your army isn't bigger, you lose it". What's wrong with that? Makes sense to me. And with defenders advantage, equal sized armies clashing at your base should hardly result in the loss of your entire army. "...because there is always a risk your opponent has a bigger and better army." I really don't understand your argument. You act like it's a sin for an opponent to have a bigger army than you. And what the dickfuckers is wrong with 3 base play? That's basically the highest amount of bases a Protoss or a Terran ever gets in a game. And you're just straight wrong about a 4th base not having an impact on your economy. I'm trying to decide if this is a joke post or not...
My point is not that you will lose an engagement when your army is smaller, but that it gets absolutely obliterated in a matter of seconds.
Im not saying a defender doesnt have an advantage when fighting near his base. My point is that if you lose an engagement, you are left with no army and your opponent just barrels down your front door in 5 seconds.
My point being in this is that a single lost engagement means a lost game in a lot of cases, which makes players not want to take those risks and leads to boring 200/200 deathball fights. (which means the game it STILL over in 1 fight, it just took 30 minutes to get there)
There is a lot wrong with 3 base play. It's unexciting, leads to turtling and deathballs, and as we've seen, creates a stagnant meta that is near impossible to break out of.
"That's basically the highest amount of bases a Protoss or a Terran ever gets in a game." It boggles me that you see this as a good thing.
"And you're just straight wrong about a 4th base not having an impact on your economy" if you believe this I recommend you take your time and read this excellent post by ZeromuS:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/482775-a-treatise-on-the-economy-of-scii
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Brief moment with locusts and Blizzard decimates SH to hell.
While Blizzard lets Skytoss / SkyTerran / Mech & Mines and all sorts of shennaigans let rampant
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On April 15 2015 00:51 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 00:35 ohmylanta1003 wrote:On April 14 2015 23:20 solidbebe wrote:On April 14 2015 23:05 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death. I think you are diverging a bit too much now, and pointing towards a BW-part 2 of SC2. Now focusing on the SwarmHost topic, the cost of them now makes them really unviable and uncomfortable to go as fighters to keep up with mech. MarineLord vs Stephano (a very experienced SwarmHost player) yesterday at qualifier showed it quite well. The new SH is a god-like DPS harass, but simply inefficent as a core unit. Any Zerg player with half a brain would go with a flock of mutas over 6-8 SH to harass, considering their cost. Mutas and Locusts have the same counters. Also new locust fucntionality is nothign but Broodlord imitation. They move at 1.88 speed (slightly faster than BL, ideal BroodLord speed, BL campaign speed), and drop units with decent DPS against lines of static units, since mobile units can just ran away. Flying locusts weren't a bad idea. We simply need the Campaign SwarmHost unit approach (less DPS, more spammeable locusts, more mobile). Flying locusts with an air-to-ground attack and bonus speed would be better since they are quite harder to counter than ground ones (Colossus out, Hellbats out, Tanks out), but at the same time less hardcountering since they don't cause friendly fire on tanks and also would deal far less damage. Support DPS (Not capital), mobility, safety of use, antiturtle mechanic, reasonable cost... that things would make a "core" unit for Zerg. We need to remove "terrible terrible damage" and very high risk/potential efficiency from the design of most units, at least the ones we want to be quite standard. Regarding your BW-part 2 suggestions: Turtle mech happens because econ wise, there is no problem with it (not like in BW, where you could just get a big advantage over turtles by expanding since workers don't pair). The goliath you are talking about is the Viking (almost same stats in everything) and the Valkyrie is the Thor, which is also very useful at soaking damage and countering Ultralisks. So old units are 80% present. And Valkyries weren't very common in BW. Econ is the change we need for LotV and BW one is a natural antiturtle plus having very interesting perks (easier comebacks, expander advantage). Protoss Deathball happens because no-deathballing is shit or suicide, considering the DPS/efficiency of the gateway army. The design of some units (Colossus, Void Rays) and the dependence on AoE and Forcefields also helps the deathball even more. Also because units tend to move quite slowly, resulting in a handicapped clumped army . VoidRays were transformed into deathball units with their speed upgrade removal and the DPS increase in HotS. However, I wouldn't call a Phoenix/Gateway army a Deathball, for example. But Phoenix/Colossus is. Protoss was not given very flexible units, they left inneficient ones to compensate with the need of extreme hardcountering units. We need some rework in that aspect. BTW, if you look at LotV streams, Protoss is nothing deathball now. Dragoons are pointless in SC2, we have stalkers that can use blink (having a very skill-demanding mechanic that allows them to survive and keep the global DPS up since they don't die) and Immortals. In any case, buff Stalker's DPS (which is quite shitty) and rework the immortal to be flexible and not so hardcountering. Stalker stats are not very different from Dragoon's ones except on vs armored, were Stalkers are weaker, and a bit less of HP. The problem of the Gateway army is vs light masseable units (lings, marines). That's why we are going to have Adepts in. One of the big problems is that leaving units outside your base in SC2 amounts to throwing them away. Every race has very fast and murderous units that do terrible terrible damage, so if your army isn't bigger, you lose it. It's as simple as that. And if you lose a big chunk of your army, the enemy is at your doorstep in seconds, leaving you very dead. You can't move out of your base (except for the fastest units, which is usually a small portion of your army, a harass force), because there is always a risk your opponent has the bigger and better army. So the natural course of action is just to wait until you're maxed and then move out because at least then your opponents army can't be bigger. That coupled with the fact that having more than 3 bases does almost nothing extra for your economy leads to the deathballing 3base play. "If your army isn't bigger, you lose it". What's wrong with that? Makes sense to me. And with defenders advantage, equal sized armies clashing at your base should hardly result in the loss of your entire army. "...because there is always a risk your opponent has a bigger and better army." I really don't understand your argument. You act like it's a sin for an opponent to have a bigger army than you. And what the dickfuckers is wrong with 3 base play? That's basically the highest amount of bases a Protoss or a Terran ever gets in a game. And you're just straight wrong about a 4th base not having an impact on your economy. I'm trying to decide if this is a joke post or not... My point is not that you will lose an engagement when your army is smaller, but that it gets absolutely obliterated in a matter of seconds. Im not saying a defender doesnt have an advantage when fighting near his base. My point is that if you lose an engagement, you are left with no army and your opponent just barrels down your front door in 5 seconds. My point being in this is that a single lost engagement means a lost game in a lot of cases, which makes players not want to take those risks and leads to boring 200/200 deathball fights. (which means the game it STILL over in 1 fight, it just took 30 minutes to get there) There is a lot wrong with 3 base play. It's unexciting, leads to turtling and deathballs, and as we've seen, creates a stagnant meta that is near impossible to break out of. "That's basically the highest amount of bases a Protoss or a Terran ever gets in a game." It boggles me that you see this as a good thing. "And you're just straight wrong about a 4th base not having an impact on your economy" if you believe this I recommend you take your time and read this excellent post by ZeromuS: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/482775-a-treatise-on-the-economy-of-scii
I'll read it when I get the chance. Thank you. Anyway, I'm not saying that I like deathballs. I'm not saying I like turtling (I Zerg, yo). I do, however, think that the economy change in LOTV is going to change lot of the things that you don't like about Starcraft 2, which is good! Sorry to come off as a dick. Cause I was. I just really don't like the amount of complaining about this game. It makes me so sad to see such an upset and angered community surrounding my favorite game.
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I reckon , we remove SwarmH completely , and then replace it with a new Reliable Unit for Zerg to play with ..Just Remove the SwarmH already ..its so broken , its a pain to see the unit anymore..make infestors reliable again..help the Zerg players to deal with Heavily Upgraded late game T and P ..not everyone is a good micro God in this game .
No hate , just saying ^__^ . gl hf
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On April 15 2015 01:26 ohmylanta1003 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2015 00:51 solidbebe wrote:On April 15 2015 00:35 ohmylanta1003 wrote:On April 14 2015 23:20 solidbebe wrote:On April 14 2015 23:05 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 22:24 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 21:39 JCoto wrote:On April 14 2015 21:08 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On April 14 2015 20:17 Poopfeast 024 wrote:On April 14 2015 04:21 darkness wrote:
Ok, I'll have the decency to say that zerg needs some kind of buff to compensate for their swarm host. Other than mass mutalisks, zerg indeed seems to be weak. Or is that what Blizzard intends? To make HotS unplayable so people can play LotV? I think everyone sort of agrees that zerg is weaker now. The people here that imply the wol queen patch "fixed" zvt and broodlord infestor was fine blow my mind though. Those guys haven't been around at those times or are too biased to make an opinion about such complex things. Late game zvp was hugely zerg favored, and zvt was unwinnable for a year. The balance was shittier than the blink era and games took 30 minutes at least. That all started with the queen patch. BL infestor was absolutely ridicilous, the queen patch on the other hand was very much needed to lower the coinflip factor of starcraft. Lets face it, ZvT today (bio vs ling bling muta) is the best matchup we have ever had in starcraft2 (for spectating that is). I agree with you. However, the actual SH change is going to lead to high rate of mech vs Z, because it's obvoiusly abusable with the SH change. The Swarmhost needed a redesign, but this one is just ridicoulous. New SwarmHost are expensive harass Broolord wannabes. The extra mobiilty approach is good as a concept. Maybe they have to keep moving around that idea. Funny to say that the Mech solution is not SH, IMAO it should have been a BroodLord speed/range buff. Lategame vs Lategame. SH definitely needed a redesign and I agree that this will most likely lead to a high rate of Mech TvZ, because on paper it should be so dominating. But instead of rebalance by buffing zerg-lategame, why not take this as an opportunity to completely wreck protoss deathballs and turtle mech? If there ever was a time to radically redesign sc2 its now with the new economy coming up. For instance: Remove PDDS/ravens from the game, give T a goliath-like antiair or a valkyrie so mutas wont completely crush mech, Remove forcefields from the game, remove Warpgate tech (or nerf it to the ground like in lotv but even more, so staying on gateway tech is a viable decision to make) and buff the shit out of gateway(not warpgate) units that require cybercore. Or perhaps reintroduce the Dragoon but only from gateways (not from warpgates) and design it with enough hp and dmg output so it doesnt have to hardcounter things (unlike 90% of the protoss arsenal) to be viable, nor does it have to move in a deathball. Remove the insane need for AoE from protoss, so that deathballing is not the way to go. These changes would make it possible for protoss to trade units in multiple small skirmishes on multiple fronts (mineral line harass from Warp prisms isnt enough to count imo) rather than having the game decided in one big blob of death vs another big blob of death. I think you are diverging a bit too much now, and pointing towards a BW-part 2 of SC2. Now focusing on the SwarmHost topic, the cost of them now makes them really unviable and uncomfortable to go as fighters to keep up with mech. MarineLord vs Stephano (a very experienced SwarmHost player) yesterday at qualifier showed it quite well. The new SH is a god-like DPS harass, but simply inefficent as a core unit. Any Zerg player with half a brain would go with a flock of mutas over 6-8 SH to harass, considering their cost. Mutas and Locusts have the same counters. Also new locust fucntionality is nothign but Broodlord imitation. They move at 1.88 speed (slightly faster than BL, ideal BroodLord speed, BL campaign speed), and drop units with decent DPS against lines of static units, since mobile units can just ran away. Flying locusts weren't a bad idea. We simply need the Campaign SwarmHost unit approach (less DPS, more spammeable locusts, more mobile). Flying locusts with an air-to-ground attack and bonus speed would be better since they are quite harder to counter than ground ones (Colossus out, Hellbats out, Tanks out), but at the same time less hardcountering since they don't cause friendly fire on tanks and also would deal far less damage. Support DPS (Not capital), mobility, safety of use, antiturtle mechanic, reasonable cost... that things would make a "core" unit for Zerg. We need to remove "terrible terrible damage" and very high risk/potential efficiency from the design of most units, at least the ones we want to be quite standard. Regarding your BW-part 2 suggestions: Turtle mech happens because econ wise, there is no problem with it (not like in BW, where you could just get a big advantage over turtles by expanding since workers don't pair). The goliath you are talking about is the Viking (almost same stats in everything) and the Valkyrie is the Thor, which is also very useful at soaking damage and countering Ultralisks. So old units are 80% present. And Valkyries weren't very common in BW. Econ is the change we need for LotV and BW one is a natural antiturtle plus having very interesting perks (easier comebacks, expander advantage). Protoss Deathball happens because no-deathballing is shit or suicide, considering the DPS/efficiency of the gateway army. The design of some units (Colossus, Void Rays) and the dependence on AoE and Forcefields also helps the deathball even more. Also because units tend to move quite slowly, resulting in a handicapped clumped army . VoidRays were transformed into deathball units with their speed upgrade removal and the DPS increase in HotS. However, I wouldn't call a Phoenix/Gateway army a Deathball, for example. But Phoenix/Colossus is. Protoss was not given very flexible units, they left inneficient ones to compensate with the need of extreme hardcountering units. We need some rework in that aspect. BTW, if you look at LotV streams, Protoss is nothing deathball now. Dragoons are pointless in SC2, we have stalkers that can use blink (having a very skill-demanding mechanic that allows them to survive and keep the global DPS up since they don't die) and Immortals. In any case, buff Stalker's DPS (which is quite shitty) and rework the immortal to be flexible and not so hardcountering. Stalker stats are not very different from Dragoon's ones except on vs armored, were Stalkers are weaker, and a bit less of HP. The problem of the Gateway army is vs light masseable units (lings, marines). That's why we are going to have Adepts in. One of the big problems is that leaving units outside your base in SC2 amounts to throwing them away. Every race has very fast and murderous units that do terrible terrible damage, so if your army isn't bigger, you lose it. It's as simple as that. And if you lose a big chunk of your army, the enemy is at your doorstep in seconds, leaving you very dead. You can't move out of your base (except for the fastest units, which is usually a small portion of your army, a harass force), because there is always a risk your opponent has the bigger and better army. So the natural course of action is just to wait until you're maxed and then move out because at least then your opponents army can't be bigger. That coupled with the fact that having more than 3 bases does almost nothing extra for your economy leads to the deathballing 3base play. "If your army isn't bigger, you lose it". What's wrong with that? Makes sense to me. And with defenders advantage, equal sized armies clashing at your base should hardly result in the loss of your entire army. "...because there is always a risk your opponent has a bigger and better army." I really don't understand your argument. You act like it's a sin for an opponent to have a bigger army than you. And what the dickfuckers is wrong with 3 base play? That's basically the highest amount of bases a Protoss or a Terran ever gets in a game. And you're just straight wrong about a 4th base not having an impact on your economy. I'm trying to decide if this is a joke post or not... My point is not that you will lose an engagement when your army is smaller, but that it gets absolutely obliterated in a matter of seconds. Im not saying a defender doesnt have an advantage when fighting near his base. My point is that if you lose an engagement, you are left with no army and your opponent just barrels down your front door in 5 seconds. My point being in this is that a single lost engagement means a lost game in a lot of cases, which makes players not want to take those risks and leads to boring 200/200 deathball fights. (which means the game it STILL over in 1 fight, it just took 30 minutes to get there) There is a lot wrong with 3 base play. It's unexciting, leads to turtling and deathballs, and as we've seen, creates a stagnant meta that is near impossible to break out of. "That's basically the highest amount of bases a Protoss or a Terran ever gets in a game." It boggles me that you see this as a good thing. "And you're just straight wrong about a 4th base not having an impact on your economy" if you believe this I recommend you take your time and read this excellent post by ZeromuS: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/482775-a-treatise-on-the-economy-of-scii I'll read it when I get the chance. Thank you. Anyway, I'm not saying that I like deathballs. I'm not saying I like turtling (I Zerg, yo). I do, however, think that the economy change in LOTV is going to change lot of the things that you don't like about Starcraft 2, which is good! Sorry to come off as a dick. Cause I was. I just really don't like the amount of complaining about this game. It makes me so sad to see such an upset and angered community surrounding my favorite game.
To me, starcraft 2 is a little bit like seeing your brother do heroin. You love them and want nothing more than them to be healthy, and you can't help but feel angered at their self destructive behaviour. I think most people who complain about starcraft 2's state do it out of a deep love for the game, I do at least.
I have little trust in LotV at this point. Simply because I don't believe Blizzard is capable of 'fixing' sc2. To me it seems like Blizzard lacks any sense of direction in their design and decision making. They want sc2 to be the same eSport succes that BW was, but at the same time they are deeply afraid of doing anything like brood war. I think they want sc2 to have a very separate identity, a successor to BW, but very different nonetheless. I don't necessarily disagree with this. It's just that they have no idea how to do it. Over the years we have seen them reluctantly put in some units and mechanics which are akin to BW, like the viper for example. And now we have a bunch of units which are weird semi copies of brood war units.
They should just choose a clear path to go down. Either look to BW for design, or go down a different road and make sc2 a completely different game, which I think they don't have the ability to pull off.
This weird mix of design just isn't working.
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On April 15 2015 02:02 Frost bitE wrote:
I reckon , we remove SwarmH completely , and then replace it with a new Reliable Unit for Zerg to play with ..Just Remove the SwarmH already ..its so broken , its a pain to see the unit anymore..make infestors reliable again..help the Zerg players to deal with Heavily Upgraded late game T and P ..not everyone is a good micro God in this game .
No hate , just saying ^__^ . gl hf
Guess I agree with most of what u say. Make Infestors more reliable
I'd also say give Vipers a bigger buff and y not decrease the time it takes to build a greater spire and/or give them more hp and speed buff...sth...
It's actually quite ugly to realize how much Zergs relied on this stupid unit.
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EPT
