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On March 16 2015 23:57 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:So no more avilo, no more Winter, no more Destiny ? yeaaaaa !!!!! However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers " Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw. If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern. If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time. we find it difficult to understand why such a person would pay in excess of $1000 to viewbot Winter for over a year. i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots And the only option a player have is ....nothing... TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do. Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation. To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?) To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players. a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p ) I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling  HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch. I like some of your suggestions. With regard to the "featured streamers" that's 100% TL's involvement. They completely decide who and why they promote, hence this thread. If Winter/his fan(s) have the means to support him that well then he doesn't really need to be featured anyway?
featured streamers are based on numbers and of course they can decide who they want to promote
I only critize the way they have to handle botviews.
The case of Mario seems more relevant to the real issue.
If your numbers allows you to be featured (real not raw numbers), no problem but is it TL job to check every time they want to feature someone ? :S
And, concerning winter's situation, imagine someone featured who is viewbots for malicious reasons, will he be defeatured by default or have a chance to deal with the matter ? how will he deal with it ?
viewbot is a plague and i think it's really hard to adress it with a good answer but i'll like that TL reassures pple on how they'll deal with this issue and not by a general rule that can harmfull.
At last, concerning winter himself, i have seen him a couple of time smurfing so "general assholery", out 
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26 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt
I don't even see the replies in that link as being supportive of a different position. It is just more proof to me that Reddit is full of people who could care less about subject matter. It is all about judgement and ridicule.
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Avilo was defeatured? Why's that?
And yeah TL's requirement that Winter provide proof to counter an accusation is, if nothing else, not a perfect solution. Short of him providing his credit report plus full copies of statements for each financial account in the credit report, I can't think of any way for him to provide proof. Unless Twitch has a way of knowing if viewbotting is occurring.
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On March 17 2015 00:15 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt I don't even see the replies in that link as being supportive of a different position. It is just more proof to me that Reddit is full of people who could care less about subject matter. It is all about judgement and ridicule.
We don't care about your opinion on Reddit.
Inasmuch as you registered to defend Winter and have written 24 posts in this thread so far, it's about time that you stopped polluting.
I'd like to read about other streamers.
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so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O?
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Canada13406 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:38 ossavi09 wrote:
so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O?
If they meet the requirements we will feature them.
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On March 17 2015 00:02 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:53 captainwaffles wrote:
so with that general assholery part, does that mean avilo will finally get unfeatured? He might be abrasive, but I don't think he's on the level of some others that I have seen that I hope to never see featured no matter their viewer count 
I just want to never see lillekanin featured again. that guy is nuts.
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On March 17 2015 00:47 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 00:02 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:53 captainwaffles wrote:
so with that general assholery part, does that mean avilo will finally get unfeatured? He might be abrasive, but I don't think he's on the level of some others that I have seen that I hope to never see featured no matter their viewer count I just want to never see lillekanin featured again. that guy is nuts.
What's the story ? PM if too offtopic
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On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt
Deinitely not what I would spend my time doing.
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On March 16 2015 23:23 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:07 danteafk wrote:
What's the deal here? Tasteless and Artosis scammed the community too, but no one did anything about it? tasteless basically MADE the foreigner broodwar scene during his gom casts.. he could do whatever he wants and his legacy would still carry him, he's a baller. Artosis is also a legacy baller.. So is day9 with his broodwar dailies lol. that being said, i don't agree with people like combatex being banned, he might have been a troll but he was still a B level protoss back in the day. However it doesn't really matter now that TL isn't the broodwar hub that it used to be, but back in the day bans were seriously damning community wise.
Pretty sure his ban involved stream sniping and other offenses that went beyond just being obnoxious.
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On March 17 2015 00:04 lichter wrote:
as an aside, it makes me sad when these threads get more views than our articles :[
If it bleeds it leads I suppose.
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Just need to get myself 100-150 viewers then I guess! :D
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On March 16 2015 23:23 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 21:07 danteafk wrote:
What's the deal here? Tasteless and Artosis scammed the community too, but no one did anything about it? tasteless basically MADE the foreigner broodwar scene during his gom casts.. he could do whatever he wants and his legacy would still carry him, he's a baller. Artosis is also a legacy baller.. So is day9 with his broodwar dailies lol. that being said, i don't agree with people like combatex being banned, he might have been a troll but he was still a B level protoss back in the day. However it doesn't really matter now that TL isn't the broodwar hub that it used to be, but back in the day bans were seriously damning community wise.
Are you saying that someone who started to cast gomtv tournament in 2008 made the foreigner scene?
So if i have been watching broodwar since elky time, i am not really part of broodwar foreigner scene ?
btw, i heard a bit about tasteless before sc2 but i never liked gomtv so it's really hard for me to consider him as a broodwar caster
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On March 17 2015 01:06 messioso wrote:
Just need to get myself 100-150 viewers then I guess! :D
I'm pretty sure you reached the final of some Premier tournaments.
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26 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:34 RHoudini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 00:15 InDLegacy wrote:On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote:On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote:On March 16 2015 23:09 ThomasjServo wrote:On March 16 2015 23:01 hZCube wrote:
Does this mean if I pay to have someone like Stephano or Naniwa viewbotted, I can have them removed from featured streams list - as I don't believe they'd be able to provide sufficient 'proof' (loose term here..) that it wasn't them?
Seems a very dangerous precedent to start? Not when you consider the monetary investment necessary to maintain the botting. Beyond that Naniwa and Stephano are existing personalities, Winter came completely out of left field with 2k viewers. It isn't like he was around in WoL. I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote:
Has twitch taken any stance on this?
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent.
I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand.
If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list.
It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt I don't even see the replies in that link as being supportive of a different position. It is just more proof to me that Reddit is full of people who could care less about subject matter. It is all about judgement and ridicule. We don't care about your opinion on Reddit. Inasmuch as you registered to defend Winter and have written 24 posts in this thread so far, it's about time that you stopped polluting. I'd like to read about other streamers.
Everyone has their own opinion. You can speak for yourself. This 'we' after all... someone did donate me a month of TL+. Perhaps I should stick around for other topics in respect of their investment.
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On March 17 2015 01:06 messioso wrote:
Just need to get myself 100-150 viewers then I guess! :D
Just get Zest. You'll get 10K
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If Winter was being viewboted by a fan who wanted him to be more popular (people can give donations over 100$, they surely can pay viewbots for the same price: fanboyisme knows no limit). There is nothing he can do.
The only relevant judge is twitch. Even if I understand that you want to apply your own rules regarding viewboting, I think that it sets a precedent that could easily go out of control.
On March 17 2015 00:38 ossavi09 wrote:
so Marinelord/Lilbow wont be featured but players like suppy/astrea will be, just because they live in NA and were lucky in challenger =O?
I'd like to know more about the "Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers" criteria. How long such players would have to stream before being featured ? And what if they are not full time streamers, but players.
Considering a player like Marinelord did not reach the Challenger.
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I hope this doesn't mean that people who deserve to be on the list are removed simply because people who dislike them are vocal about it. Not siding winter but I read some post about Avilo/Destiny being up featured. True/false?
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EPT
