EPTRevised Featured Stream Requirements for 2015 - Page 11
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MarthTV
Germany387 Posts
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pmp10
3315 Posts
Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent. I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand. If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list. It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote: I had forgotten about the Freebird bit, you are right there, I guess the difference is that personally I think the evidence provided is convincing enough. It isn't like we're going to get a charge from a bank statement indicating Winter paid for the service, If there are two options, that someone(s) is paying to fuck with Winter and viewbotting him, and poor him he gets bumped numbers and a lot of attention, or Winter is paying for the viewbots himself, it is really a question of Cui Bono. Even if I had a lot of money, I'm not pissing it away on some petty vendetta with a kid online. Winter stands to gain and has gained far more from the viewbots than the wishy washy, plan to soil Winter's reputation by viewbotting him ad infinitum. What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- On March 16 2015 23:36 pmp10 wrote: Has twitch taken any stance on this? Because if they haven't this sets up one ugly precedent. I don't even like winter but that 'undisputed' proof amounted to a handful of viewbots in a channel that supposedly had over a thousand. If we applied the same scrutiny to other streamers I doubt there would be a single celebrity left in the featured list. It looks a little too much like a reddit witch-hunt for my liking. We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:15 hZCube wrote: I guess a lot of people don't realise that Winter was the rebranding of zlFreebird, who was around in wol, and stream from his garage for years/months with a handful of viewers, taking long time to build up to the 2k figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm as much a fan of banning 'cheaters' as anyone, but asking someone to provide proof against an accusation, when you know full well there is zero way that proof can be given, even in an innocent case, does not seem like reasoned normal behaviour, it seems a bit pitchforky. TL isn't asking for any further information... They feel the evidence they have is sufficient that it warrants action. (This isn't the first time the issue has come up - and it's not exactly a criminal trial.) I think their explanation was quite ample. Can't say I ever saw zlFreebird... I don't have anything against Winter, Winter's stream or fans. I want to take this time to also point out the difference in specifying "Winter" vs "Winter's stream". The issue isn't if he viewbotted. The bottom line is that a stream TL promoted was being promoted under false pretense. TL is taking a stance on a feature of their site, a way they promote the scene. The stream is not getting banned, just "demoted" - the "special privilege" is being removed. If Winter continues streaming and his fans remain loyal he will continue to gain more fans and most likely be featured once again (although at that point he may need some reasonable amount of proof that his channel is legit). | ||
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InDLegacy
26 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote: Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- Well. To this point specifically. I highly doubt any such person could have predicted TL would offer re-evaluation after six months. In that position I would have assumed it would be permanent. On March 16 2015 23:37 y0su wrote: If Winter continues streaming and his fans remain loyal he will continue to gain more fans and most likely be featured once again (although at that point he may need some reasonable amount of proof that his channel is legit). Well some have brought up a valid concern. How exactly is someone supposed to provide such proof. A recording of how active his chat seems to be in proportion to his view count? His sub to viewer ratio? I mean he already has 600 subs among an average of 2200-2800 reviewers prior to the investigation. | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers " Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw. If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern. If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time. we find it difficult to understand why such a person would pay in excess of $1000 to viewbot Winter for over a year. i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot to clear up the viewbotting issue with Twitch, and to try to find a way to eradicate his stream of bots And the only option a player have is ....nothing... TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do. Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation. To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?) To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players. a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p ) I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling  HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:37 ZeromuS wrote: What does viewbotting someone else to get them a featured spot on TL then ousting them as a botter REALLY do anyway. You bot them and help them (as some sort of twisted vendetta?) where the intent is to set them up for a big fall. Then they fall and you stop botting them. Then they fall off the TL featured list due to the botting and then you keep botting (spending money) to ensure that they stay defeatured? OR do you stop and then start back up again if they are featured again? i never realised the TL feature list was worth so much to do this as a form of vendetta. Add to this -- if someone else IS viewbotting winter. IF their ultimate plan has been achieved and they choose to stop and his viewer count drops to 800 or so (for example). In six months time, if he is refeatured do you RETURN to botting him? At that point do you give up? At what point does it become so obvious. And why the hell spend all that money -_- We are willing to refeature winter if sufficient proof arises in such a manner that we believe he is not responsible. On the balance of probabilities (and in reading the entirety of the post and proof) it can be easily said that its more than a handful of bots in the thousands you see as a number (likely hundreds if not nearing a thousand on some occasions). My personal input into the matter is that I would rather be wrong and he be cleared than us support someone who cheats the system. We aren't talking about prison, we aren't talking about ruining this man's life. His loyal viewers and subscribers will remain loyal to him. He clearly does have a viewerbase, and does not NEED to viewbot (if he is indeed doing so). What I dont like is supporting viewbotting as a means to achieve TL feature - which with the slightly less stringent requirements we now have for the current SC2 environment means it could happen much more easily than before. Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote: So no more avilo, no more Winter, no more Destiny ? yeaaaaa !!!!! However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers " Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw. If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern. If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time. i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot And the only option a player have is ....nothing... TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do. Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation. To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?) To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players. a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p ) I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch. I like some of your suggestions. With regard to the "featured streamers" that's 100% TL's involvement. They completely decide who and why they promote, hence this thread. If Winter/his fan(s) have the means to support him that well then he doesn't really need to be featured anyway? | ||
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InDLegacy
26 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:57 y0su wrote: I like some of your suggestions. With regard to the "featured streamers" that's 100% TL's involvement. They completely decide who and why they promote, hence this thread. If Winter/his fan(s) have the means to support him that well then he doesn't really need to be featured anyway? The more attention this gets, the more difficult it is to maintain order in chat. It isn't just an attack on winter. It's an attack on his viewers who for the most part are unable to contribute when the channel is forced into sub mode. So yes, we can support him without the feature. Doesn't change the fact that this is affecting everyone. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:53 captainwaffles wrote: so with that general assholery part, does that mean avilo will finally get unfeatured? He might be abrasive, but I don't think he's on the level of some others that I have seen that I hope to never see featured no matter their viewer count  | ||
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Penev
28474 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote: So no more avilo, no more Winter, no more Destiny ? yeaaaaa !!!!! However i dont agree about this part " Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers " Some pple may try to make you believe that they can "prove" viewbotting by maths but that is not real proof. The argument of TL concerning this issue is so flaw. If you have a screenshot or data proving the payement BY winter(or an other player) or a link between him a third party concerning viewbots, be my guest. Otherwise, it's just speculation and pattern. If a third party viewbots you, you always going to be the benefactor and victim at the same time. i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot And the only option a player have is ....nothing... TL should not have to be involved in this issue that's clearly the responsability of twitch, however i can understand how much damage to your credibility it can do. Your house, your rules and TL RULZZ!! :p I think you should explore a new "Live Streams" presentation. To be able to reduce and extend categories (atm 10 featured broodwar streams, 5 protoss...redundancy ?) To add little grey and gold stars in front of current challenger/premier league players. a small frame appearing with a short description of the player(5-10 words) when i stay a couple of seconds on top of this nickname. ( ex. for avilo, mario ; "mech player only" :p ) I think that rank by raw numbers is not really appealling HotS is already here and will certainly take more place when it'll open, same for Overwatch. I guess they thought this was enough: The full evidence compilation has a text file that has my completed viewbotter research, along with snippits from my IRC chat log (as well as the log file itself) from Winter's channel as he was alledgely being DDOS'ed. Viewbots were leaving in a mass exodus. Why would viewbots be leaving when Winter's internet is failing? Could it be that it's his internet that is running said bots? It's enough for me at least. Else you'd think the 3rd party would have to be Illuminati/ Specter level imo | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On March 16 2015 21:48 Detri wrote: Wow, I just googled the bot to see what sort of money it actually costs - £30 a month/300 viewers. Time to bust out eclipse and get to work on my own bot! + Show Spoiler + That is infact a joke. Wait you are telling me that viewbots are really costly ? Because it happened to my ex teams. We were like ... 20 in Clan wars TOP and someday for another random clan war we hit something like 250 viewers. Apparently a friend of one of the player of my ex team was viewbotting us. We asked on stream to stop and the guy stopped. I rememeber the numbers going up to 80 then something like 150, then 100, then 250, then 100 it was fluctuating a lot. The fact that someone who was surely like 18 to 20 yo (since he was a friend of one of the younger player that the team had) would spend 20€/month (or even for ONE month) on a view bot platform (or whatever this is) makes me wonder how many people use that. Does twitch have stats on how many times viewbots or used ? Or is it just something that rarely happens ? | ||
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ETisME
12384 Posts
On March 16 2015 23:50 ThomasjServo wrote: Kind of twisted, psychological stuff if that panned out, the situation Winter is painting just doesn't make sense. I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt | ||
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InDLegacy
26 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:04 FFW_Rude wrote: Wait you are telling me that viewbots are really costly ? Because it happened to my ex teams. We were like ... 20 in Clan wars TOP and someday for another random clan war we hit something like 250 viewers. Apparently a friend of one of the player of my ex team was viewbotting us. We asked on stream to stop and the guy stopped. I rememeber the numbers going up to 80 then something like 150, then 100, then 250, then 100 it was fluctuating a lot. The fact that someone who was surely like 18 to 20 yo (since he was a friend of one of the younger player that the team had) would spend 20€/month (or even for ONE month) on a view bot platform (or whatever this is) makes me wonder how many people use that. Does twitch have stats on how many times viewbots or used ? Or is it just something that rarely happens ? The internet has taught me to never be surprised at what people are capable of. Swatting, troll donations. DDoS. Even acts of kindness where they drop $500 donations on their favorite streamers. I've learned not to try to apply my way of thinking to people I've never met in person. | ||
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MaestroMaus
Netherlands23 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:04 lichter wrote: as an aside, it makes me sad when these threads get more views than our articles :[ Drama sells. You know it; and we know it. Don't be sad; these are the cheapest page visits TL will ever get. | ||
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Connor987
United Kingdom103 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:10 InDLegacy wrote: The internet has taught me to never be surprised at what people are capable of. Swatting, troll donations. DDoS. Even acts of kindness where they drop $500 donations on their favorite streamers. I've learned not to try to apply my way of thinking to people I've never met in person. Yeah i guess you are right. | ||
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Penev
28474 Posts
On March 17 2015 00:06 ETisME wrote: I don't know about that. the guy who investigated all of this is pretty weird imo: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2z46w8/winter_sailed_at_700_stable_viewers_after/cpfiijt Except that this is the guy who investigated viewbotting on Twitch (not just Winters') http://www.reddit.com/user/NickHotShttp://www.reddit.com/user/NickHotS That's not the same guy is it? | ||
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