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On March 17 2015 04:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot Donating to a streamer that you like has a very clear cause and effect line on who benefits. I like a streamer, I want to support him, I give money. I have lots of money; I give him lots of money. The scenario ZeromuS is describing is such a roundabout plan of revenge that it makes the Fenian raids to capture Canada to free Ireland from Britain seem sensible. I hate a streamer, so I raise him up from obscurity by spending thousands of dollars to raise his profile. I wait for him to get featured on TL, get sponsorships, get legitimate viewers... and then I... ??? Pull the plug? Reveal my diabolical plan and laugh maniacally? He loses a TL feature, which he did not have before I started viewbotting! How am I ahead in masterplan? Why not save my thousands and let the streamer I hate stay in obscurity and troll his stream for free? The whole raise them up to bring them crashing down makes no sense as there is no guarantee there IS a crashdown- just take a look at this thread. Winter's legitimate supporters are coming out in droves to support him through thick and thing- the evil masterplan has already failed because gaining enough traction gives you a stickiness in streaming viewers. Once supporters are gained, they don't go away so easily. For an evil masterplan, it is incredibly stupid because it costs so much and benefits Winter far more than it could ever hurt him to simply never viewbotted in the first place. I can see targetted troll viewbotting like what happened to Mario, but not a whole year, not in the way it happened for Winter. We really did go to the moon, 9/11 was not an inside job, and either someone sympathetic to Winter or Winter himself was viewbotting for the purpose of raising Winter's profile.
no no, the diabolical plan is just hatching... just WAIT for phase 3!
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There is one thing about the requirements that I do not like at all.
"Full time streamer on a professional team that has at least 100-150 constant viewers"
"Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers"
Why do people on a pro team (however that is even defined) get an advantage over people who are solo? They already have an advantage anyway because their team can help to promote the stream. This feels like you are bullying people who prefer to be independent.
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I don't know much about streams and viewbots but why isn't Twitch on this? Wouldn't it be easy to separate real viewers from viewbots based on their IP, considering that viewbots from the same viewbot company probably share close IPs? Or am I saying nonsense?
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Do you absolutely HAVE to be an active community member to have your stream featured?
I'm asking becasue I think RocketbeansTV provide high quality entertainment, but due to their "professional" nature, little time and the fact that they're catering towards the german community they aren't active at all on teamliquid.net. Though they start to do more and more stuff in the german community(thoughts about organizing tournaments, they're playing with the community etc)
Referring to this ->
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/477363-straight-2-gold-rocketbeanstv-playing-starcraft
So my question is, do variety streamers that have a main feature for SC2 count as well, or only SC2-focused streams that are active on TL.net?
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i really think the german community should start their own version of TL rather than constantly asking TL to feature german streamers and content
iirc the millennium website is like a French TL, maybe takeTV could make a german TL-like site with rocketbeans, knowme, etc all featured.
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On March 17 2015 04:21 Cheren wrote:
i really think the german community should start their own version of TL rather than constantly asking TL to feature german streamers and content
iirc the millennium website is like a French TL, maybe takeTV could make a german TL-like site with rocketbeans, knowme, etc all featured.
I really don't see the point in doing so, we have sites like instarcraft.de, mystarcraft.de, readmore.de, but they all are pretty dead and/or not appealing. Since I've joined TL, I've been sticking around here as it's THE site for following StarCraft.
TL is an international site with featured streams from all over the world and with our rather "small" community I don't think separating/excluding stuff regarding StarCraft just because it's a more "local thing" is a very good idea.
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IMI CharSiuBau abd IMI Praiise also use view bots, but they're personalities are to dull for anyone else to watch.
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For anyone who claims that Winter is not guilty because he was ignorant or there are not enough evidences, think about Olympic rule: anyone suspected (before the final verdict) of using stimulants is suspended or even banned (in case suspect refuse to cooperate) for life.
Same here - Viewbotting is Dishonest practice. Viewbotting just like stimulants are to get undeserved fame and money. Also it distorts the market and competition. There is a competition between streamers.
Why Twich is RELUCTANT to shut it:
Viewbotts are not a mere numbers generated by script. Viewbots have their own internal IPs and they are "viewers" in a sense that they really exist and "watch" commercials. As long as this sham is not getting out of control and not getting too much publicity Twich must be completely satisfied with extra revenue.
Viewbots have different IP ranges and they get switched on different time intervals once the stream starts.
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On March 17 2015 04:48 saltis wrote:
For anyone who claims that Winter is not guilty because he was ignorant or there are not enough evidences, think about Olympic rule: anyone suspected (before the final verdict) of using stimulants is suspended or even banned (in case suspect refuse to cooperate) for life.
Same here - Viewbotting is Dishonest practice. Viewbotting just like stimulants are to get undeserved fame and money. Also it distorts the market and competition. There is a competition between streamers.
Why Twich is RELUCTANT to shut it:
Viewbotts are not a mere numbers generated by script. Viewbots have their own internal IPs and they are "viewers" in a sense that they really exist and "watch" commercials. As long as this sham is not getting out of control and not getting too much publicity Twich must be completely satisfied with extra revenue.
Viewbots have different IP ranges and they get switched on different time intervals once the stream starts.
I personally think that it's pretty clear that Winter viewbotted but from what I've read about the subject this is actually not true (by "this" I mean the big bold italic part  ).
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Reading this thread I feel like there's a lot of double standards and cognitive dissonance (probably not the right word but whatever) in a lot of people's minds. Personally I don't really care whether Winter is guilty or a victim, or at least I don't care about that in this specific discussion. However I do care about the implications of his channel being viewbotted when it comes to other streamers, which is why I don't understand why people are angry at Team Liquid's approach. As the premier community and website for Starcraft 2, I think it's reasonable to say that they have the best interests of players and streamers in mind, and are dedicated to the success of Starcraft 2 as a whole. It's been explained many times that the inflation of viewers creates an unfair advantage for the viewbotted channel and makes it harder for legitimate streamers to gain recognition and in turn revenue. TL's decision is based on this idea and about saying "we're gonna do our best efforts to make sure that the scene is integral and we will support those on merit and not misconduct." This decision doesn't imply that they decided Winter is guilty and should therefore be punished.
If you get arrested and accused of a crime you have to stay in jail and go through a court process. If you're accused of misconduct according to say a sporting organization, or really any organization, you can get suspended. These things still happen EVEN IF you are innocent. It happens all the time. Those examples aren't necessarily analogous to this situatiom, (Winter still has all the viewers and subs that want to watch him and as far as I am concerned that is great for him and his fans) it's an unfortunate consequence of unfortunate circumstances. I appreciate the effort that TL has put in to preserve integrity in something that I think we can all agree is important to us. 
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On March 17 2015 04:55 Penev wrote:Viewbots have different IP ranges and they get switched on different time intervals once the stream starts. I personally think that it's pretty clear that Winter viewbotted but from what I've read about the subject this is actually not true (by "this" I mean the big bold italic part ).
I don't see why not, if you can write a http bot to consume stream content then there is no reason why it could also not consume advertisements from that stream.
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On March 17 2015 01:32 Cheren wrote:
Winter met the "Full time streamer with at least 250 constant viewers" requirement before he was ever accused of viewbotting, he had about 300-500 viewers every night (with about the same amount of chat activity as he does now lol). While I believe it's completely proven that he viewbotted, I also believe he met the current feature requirements without the aid of viewbots.
Basically just say he botted himself and ban him, or feature him for the same reason HTOMario isn't featured. (amount of viewers before viewbotting happened)
He did meet the requirements without viewbotting. However, viewbotting is cheating, and I think it goes without saying that we can't have a cheater in the Featured Streams section, anymore than we can have Lance Armstrong in the Hall of Fame.
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On March 17 2015 05:18 Attunga wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 04:55 Penev wrote:Viewbots have different IP ranges and they get switched on different time intervals once the stream starts. I personally think that it's pretty clear that Winter viewbotted but from what I've read about the subject this is actually not true (by "this" I mean the big bold italic part ). I don't see why not, if you can write a http bot to consume stream content then there is no reason why it could also not consume advertisements from that stream.
Sure it can. But since no potential consumer actually views the ad, Twitch's customers obtain no benefits from playing the ad. They know this of course, which is why they end up paying Twitch less per ad view since so many of the views are fake. So no, viewbots don't benefit Twitch.
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On March 17 2015 04:04 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 23:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:i see pple donate 500 €/$ to streamer and sometimes more so i dont understand why it's difficult to imagine someone pay for good or bad reasons to viewbot Donating to a streamer that you like has a very clear cause and effect line on who benefits. I like a streamer, I want to support him, I give money. I have lots of money; I give him lots of money. The scenario ZeromuS is describing is such a roundabout plan of revenge that it makes the Fenian raids to capture Canada to free Ireland from Britain seem sensible. I hate a streamer, so I raise him up from obscurity by spending thousands of dollars to raise his profile. I wait for him to get featured on TL, get sponsorships, get legitimate viewers... and then I... ??? Pull the plug? Reveal my diabolical plan and laugh maniacally? Why not save my thousands and let the streamer I hate stay in obscurity and troll his stream for free? The whole raise them up to bring them crashing down makes no sense as there is no guarantee there IS a crashdown- just take a look at this thread. Winter's legitimate supporters are coming out in droves to support him through thick and thin- the evil masterplan has already failed because gaining enough traction gives you a stickiness in streaming viewers. Once supporters are gained, they don't go away so easily. For an evil masterplan, it is incredibly stupid because it costs so much and benefits Winter far more than it could ever hurt him to simply never viewbot him in the first place. I can see targeted troll viewbotting like what happened to Mario, but not a whole year, not in the way it happened for Winter. We really did go to the moon, 9/11 was not an inside job, and either someone sympathetic to Winter or Winter himself was viewbotting for the purpose of raising Winter's profile.
lol i didnt read all about this diabolic/master plan of yours but my point was only if it's happens in one way it can happens in the other way too^^ People seems shock by the fact that someone could spend money to troll someone else.
My main concern was is someone is featured by TL then get viewbot for x time, will he defeatured ? Mario didnt have the required numbers ok but if he had, would have he been defeatured ?
i think there has been a mystake, i only watch sc2 players with good gameplay mechanics and i wonder why all those people are talking about Winter. Viewbot is twitch issue, they have to deal with it, not TL.
My solution will be to add tiers to the featured live streams, - games - races - noob/pro.
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Canada11350 Posts
It would be no shock to find people spend money to troll people. But not thousands on one streamer and one streamer alone and not in this way. I can see a script kiddie spend money to ddos streamers they hate. That has a very tangible effect on the streamer you hate and you might even get them to rage once they come back on stream. But to boost the stream numbers of the very stream you hate for years at a time and pay thousands to do so? I think not. That's not even a plan of a crazy person. That's a 'plan' of an imbecile.
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On March 17 2015 05:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 05:18 Attunga wrote:
I don't see why not, if you can write a http bot to consume stream content then there is no reason why it could also not consume advertisements from that stream. Sure it can. But since no potential consumer actually views the ad, Twitch's customers obtain no benefits from playing the ad. They know this of course, which is why they end up paying Twitch less per ad view since so many of the views are fake. So no, viewbots don't benefit Twitch.
1-5% existing viewbots wouldn't make an impact to Twich customers as long as they are not aware of Twich ignorance or reluctance to take action. 2000 Winter's viewbots wouldn't make any impact to big companies like Sony etc, What makes an impact is the reputation and this is where community should stand and be vocal so that Twich would be aware of the publicity. TeamLiquid made a big step of disclosing the sham and we as community should follow it.
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Glad to see low master player smurfing silvers giving dumb tips de-featured.
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On March 17 2015 05:58 saltis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 05:33 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On March 17 2015 05:18 Attunga wrote:
I don't see why not, if you can write a http bot to consume stream content then there is no reason why it could also not consume advertisements from that stream. Sure it can. But since no potential consumer actually views the ad, Twitch's customers obtain no benefits from playing the ad. They know this of course, which is why they end up paying Twitch less per ad view since so many of the views are fake. So no, viewbots don't benefit Twitch. 1-5% existing viewbots wouldn't make an impact to Twich customers as long as they are not aware of Twich ignorance or reluctance to take action. 2000 Winter's viewbots wouldn't make any impact to big companies like Sony etc, What makes an impact is the reputation and this is where community should stand and be vocal so that Twich would be aware of the publicity. TeamLiquid made a big step of disclosing the sham and we as community should follow it.
The issue I see with the ad revenue/spending, and I agree with your point that it isn't a big hit to large companies, is that Winter would have knowingly sold ad space and taken money from sponsors and willfully misrepresented the ROI they could expect from sponsoring him. At best this would constitute unethical business practices at worst breach of contract and potentially fraud; that being said, I doubt the amount of money that was gained by Winter through sponsorship would make litigation or pursuing the matter beyond pulling sponsorships worth the time and effort involved.
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On March 17 2015 06:01 ProBell wrote:
Glad to see low master player smurfing silvers giving dumb tips de-featured.
those can still be featured, just not if they viewbot
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Finally, the people in charge put an end to the insult to our intelligence that was any notion of Winter being blameless for the viewbotting. I mean, it's so embarrassing that anyone was ever willing to be suckered into that for one second. Oh, someone else, who really wants to harm you, is giving you a successful streaming platform, and just so happens to be there, every time your stream comes on, for every moment of it, for an entire year? Just saying it aloud, I don't know what about it confounds me the most. Glad that someone decided to get real and take action to serve the rest of the community and their legitimate efforts and commitment as streamers/players.
It was a massive let-down to see people like Take inviting him to an event like Homestory Cup where he just got even more face time and validation, or seeing PartinG tweeting about him after and befriending him etc. His whole existence as a streamer/entertainer is a lie. This should have happened SO much earlier, but better late than never. Our community, eSports as a whole, needs to play an active role in watching over and preventing this kind of detrimental activity.
Thank you.
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EPT
