Okay, so I and a friend had a discussion about what matchups were the best and most popular among the community.
From reading threads and listening to casts I had the impression that a certain mirror is more liked than the others by the community, but he was of the opinion that I am wrong!
So, to settle this I wanted to make a little poll and see: what matchup does people like seeing more? This is even more relevant since we will have PvP in IEM, TvT in NSSL and maybe another PvP in GSL!
Endless sieging tanks?
Laser wars?
Swarmhosts vs swarmhosts?
I want to have a discussion, but also vote in this poll.
Currently? The average TvT and PvP are about even, but TvT has the potential to rival TvZ for the best matchup in sc2.
Only sOs vs Zest has come close to that in terms of PvP.
ZvZ is currently the weakest matchup, but still very underrated. It seems to be on the ups lately with more players using mutas again. I doubt it'll recover its WoL luster again though.
PvP when Zest in his prime plays it is a wonderful thing, especially against the likes of $O$ and Rain who were practically even with him, so I might vote for that. TvT is annoying currently. If neither player dies to early aggression, one will go for a doom drop and either make or break. If more people went mech in TvT (which was exceedingly more common last year <.<), it can get much better, but it's not happening right now.
And ZvZ, well, I don't like looking at it (visual distaste, is all), but it's not bad <.<.
EDIT: Also, as a Terran, I take great liking to Protosses doing Protoss bullshit to other Protosses.
I'm not going to give my opinion this early but it's interesting reading your opinions! Although, it would be optimal if all had equal distributions of players liking them!
I am so sorry, tbf, I thought I had read the rules but I must have missed that (when I searched for threads I founds some so I just assumed they were allowed). I'll remake it into a discussion, with a poll added :-)
Edit - If a mod could change [P] to [D] (for discussion or something)
For me it is: TvT: Players usually go dirty in early game bringing action very fast, but the game ususally goes up to the mid game, because even with a disadvantage, one dirty engagement can bring you on top. Marine tank fights are freaking fast and freaking deadly bringing a chess like siege and unsiege movment chaos. Also with the use of mech and Hellbetblurb on Bio, the TvT brings the fun up.
Behind TvT, we have PvP. Game gets dirty right after both dropped their core. You see a 2 gate fast expand nowhere this time, it is stargate, blink or just 3 gates and the games go quick. For me it is very pleasend to see a protoss die to protoss early shenanigans, but the games are usually to quick. When one player took high amount of damage, there is no way of comeback and game is over. Also stalkers snowball really hard, so once someone has a certain amount of stalkers more then his enemy, the game is usually over. When the PvP comes to a macrogame, the game can be great. Its not LASERZZZZWARZZZ only, using stormdrops, archons, phoenix and tempest makes the game interesting. And i love to see how one of the protoss guys micros his colossos so bad, that his enemy wrecks him in a fight like nothing.
Behind all this, waaaaays behind, we have ZvZ. ZvZ has a small timing window for great action, it is called the ling-bling-dance. There are games where both partys say "no aggression till roaches" or when someone has a solid 2base 2queen+evo chambers wall, ZvZ becomes boring as fuck and startes into the roach war. Roaches are slow, they have high hp to damage ratio and their fights take ages and allways the attacking players loses them if he has not 30+ supply lead. And when someplayer teches, like mutas or infestors, he usually gets overroached while sporecrawlers are fucking op against muta. I mean 45 damage with one shot? This kills muta so hard and 2 base mutas take ages to kill roaches which wreck you base in that time. Or the other player just gets hydras, spores are to strong anyway.
To sum it up for me: TvZ>TvT>PvP>PvZ>TvP>ZvZ.
And I do not play SC II anymore, i watch it all day.
I'm probably even on TvT and PvP now. TvT hasn't been much fun lately, 1/1/1 into doom drops into gg. Haven't had any epic games like Flash vs Bbyong at Shoutcraft in awhile.
PvP has so many mindgames and when it's two top tier PvPers playing it can be fantastic.
I'm glad mutas are coming back into ZvZ more of late, but I still hate Roach wars.
On March 15 2015 08:13 Phredxor wrote: I'm probably even on TvT and PvP now. TvT hasn't been much fun lately, 1/1/1 into doom drops into gg. Haven't had any epic games like Flash vs Bbyong at Shoutcraft in awhile.
PvP has so many mindgames and when it's two top tier PvPers playing it can be fantastic.
I'm glad mutas are coming back into ZvZ more of late, but I still hate Roach wars.
Flash vs TaeJa at IEM Toronto was after Sandisk Shoutcraft, right? The game on Merry Go Round is very good. Also series like INno vs Cure (Code S semi) and Bomber vs Cure (I think at one of the Redbull events?) were better than what we currently get because more mech vs bio.
PvP has even too many mindgames... I suppose for a viewer it can be fun to see both players go insane trying to guess which tech his opponent is going for and whether or not he is expanding, but if you play it you fully realize how frustrating it is. Most games are decided by random factors more than skill. Midgame is better though than it was in WoL. Voted for ZvZ because of that, it seems like it's the most balanced matchup of all 3.
On March 15 2015 08:13 Phredxor wrote: I'm probably even on TvT and PvP now. TvT hasn't been much fun lately, 1/1/1 into doom drops into gg. Haven't had any epic games like Flash vs Bbyong at Shoutcraft in awhile.
PvP has so many mindgames and when it's two top tier PvPers playing it can be fantastic.
I'm glad mutas are coming back into ZvZ more of late, but I still hate Roach wars.
Flash vs TaeJa at IEM Toronto was after Sandisk Shoutcraft, right? The game on Merry Go Round is very good. Also series like INno vs Cure (Code S semi) and Bomber vs Cure (I think at one of the Redbull events?) were better than what we currently get because more mech vs bio.
I used to really like tvt but then everyone realised how strong one base stuff and now its just hellions, mines, banshees and medivacs turboing around... marine tank vs marine tank or mech is still really good.
On March 15 2015 08:13 Phredxor wrote: I'm probably even on TvT and PvP now. TvT hasn't been much fun lately, 1/1/1 into doom drops into gg. Haven't had any epic games like Flash vs Bbyong at Shoutcraft in awhile.
PvP has so many mindgames and when it's two top tier PvPers playing it can be fantastic.
I'm glad mutas are coming back into ZvZ more of late, but I still hate Roach wars.
Flash vs TaeJa at IEM Toronto was after Sandisk Shoutcraft, right? The game on Merry Go Round is very good. Also series like INno vs Cure (Code S semi) and Bomber vs Cure (I think at one of the Redbull events?) were better than what we currently get because more mech vs bio.
On March 15 2015 08:13 Phredxor wrote: I'm probably even on TvT and PvP now. TvT hasn't been much fun lately, 1/1/1 into doom drops into gg. Haven't had any epic games like Flash vs Bbyong at Shoutcraft in awhile.
PvP has so many mindgames and when it's two top tier PvPers playing it can be fantastic.
I'm glad mutas are coming back into ZvZ more of late, but I still hate Roach wars.
Flash vs TaeJa at IEM Toronto was after Sandisk Shoutcraft, right? The game on Merry Go Round is very good. Also series like INno vs Cure (Code S semi) and Bomber vs Cure (I think at one of the Redbull events?) were better than what we currently get because more mech vs bio.
On March 15 2015 08:13 Phredxor wrote: I'm probably even on TvT and PvP now. TvT hasn't been much fun lately, 1/1/1 into doom drops into gg. Haven't had any epic games like Flash vs Bbyong at Shoutcraft in awhile.
PvP has so many mindgames and when it's two top tier PvPers playing it can be fantastic.
I'm glad mutas are coming back into ZvZ more of late, but I still hate Roach wars.
Flash vs TaeJa at IEM Toronto was after Sandisk Shoutcraft, right? The game on Merry Go Round is very good. Also series like INno vs Cure (Code S semi) and Bomber vs Cure (I think at one of the Redbull events?) were better than what we currently get because more mech vs bio.
I didn't vote because it depends on multiple factors. If it was a bo5 final/semifinal with some interesting backstory I'd say TvT as long as at least one of the players doesn't mech every time. If it's a lot TvTs in a row I quickly lose interest and then it's really hard to follow what's going on because I feel like this match up needs constant attention from the viewer, otherwise it just looks chaotic. In other mirrors you will have much easier time catching up with the game but this can be my subjective feeling.
If I had to watch mirrors whole day I'd choose either PvP or ZvZ depending on current meta. I like Roach wars better than stargate rock-paper-scissors but Archon Immortal timings are more interesting than Swarm Hosts or huge muta flocks.
I recently switched to terran from zerg. I hope none of you people saying TvT is the best matchup are any of the same people who instantly leave when you get a TvT
On March 15 2015 09:04 starslayer wrote: well this is ez TVT = marine tank vs marine tank, mech vs mech, bio vs mech, or skyterran vs mech pvp = lasers zvz = roachs
so yea TVT all day
and since everyone's doing it TvZ>TvT>PvZ>PvP>TvP>ZvZ
On March 15 2015 09:16 Fecalfeast wrote: I recently switched to terran from zerg. I hope none of you people saying TvT is the best matchup are any of the same people who instantly leave when you get a TvT
TvT is shit to play, but I'd rather try than leave instantly <.<
On March 15 2015 08:13 Phredxor wrote: I'm probably even on TvT and PvP now. TvT hasn't been much fun lately, 1/1/1 into doom drops into gg. Haven't had any epic games like Flash vs Bbyong at Shoutcraft in awhile.
PvP has so many mindgames and when it's two top tier PvPers playing it can be fantastic.
I'm glad mutas are coming back into ZvZ more of late, but I still hate Roach wars.
Flash vs TaeJa at IEM Toronto was after Sandisk Shoutcraft, right? The game on Merry Go Round is very good. Also series like INno vs Cure (Code S semi) and Bomber vs Cure (I think at one of the Redbull events?) were better than what we currently get because more mech vs bio.
Mech vs bio is so fucking good, its like a non-mirror
Also Innovation vs Taeja in New Kirk, that was a game for the ages
On March 15 2015 08:13 Phredxor wrote: I'm probably even on TvT and PvP now. TvT hasn't been much fun lately, 1/1/1 into doom drops into gg. Haven't had any epic games like Flash vs Bbyong at Shoutcraft in awhile.
PvP has so many mindgames and when it's two top tier PvPers playing it can be fantastic.
I'm glad mutas are coming back into ZvZ more of late, but I still hate Roach wars.
Flash vs TaeJa at IEM Toronto was after Sandisk Shoutcraft, right? The game on Merry Go Round is very good. Also series like INno vs Cure (Code S semi) and Bomber vs Cure (I think at one of the Redbull events?) were better than what we currently get because more mech vs bio.
Mech vs bio is so fucking good, its like a non-mirror
Also Innovation vs Taeja in New Kirk, that was a game for the ages
I agree, watching mech vs bio on a high level is amazing, like a cooler version of TvP. But it's not very common right now, unfortunately.
TvT is the best for me, but I did think it was a bit more of a clean match up in WoL as one base was not as common plus I do not really like the turbo vacs addition in this match up and the doom dropping that goes with it.
Am i the only one here that just can't stand TvT? Every other matchup is fine, but TvT is like the most boring thing ever for me. and Yes, i have seen all the super possible "BEST OF THE YEAR" games of TvT, i just really dislike the matchup.
I play zerg, so I prefer watching ZvZ myself, even over TvP. But I think I am in a minority of people that watch games as education as much as entertainment. The consensus in the community is TvT > PvP > ZvZ as far as I understand, and have to agree from a (race-neutral) spectator point of view.
TvT has the most variation and tends to go for the longer games, even if both players try shenanigans. Bio vs Mech, Tank vs Tank or anything in between is all possible.
ZvZ can go for interesting games but many devolve into nothing but Ling/Baneling and then Roaches. If the game doesn't go that way though, it can be fun to watch.
PvP I've rarely seen go past one base. Proxy Gates, Stargates or just straight up Blink all-in seems to be all they go for. The few Protoss that do go for an expand and hold it usually win. Once it goes past 10 minutes it usually devolves into War of the Worlds. I have yet to really see a good PvP that really had two different strategies going for it. The one I can remember that gets closest to that involved (I think) Stargate play vs Colossi.
I love PvP, I'm not very good at playing it but I do enjoy it. Mainly because of the mindgames. I feel it's more tactical than the other two mirrors, keeps you thinking and trying to gleam the smallest piece of information at all times for an advantage.
ZvZ though, needs looking at, I almost instantly zone out for ZvZ, I don't find it fun to watch Roaches barf all over each other for 20 minutes personally.
PvP is so bipolar, some of the games end before 10 minutes but if they go longer than that they are usually very entertaining to watch. Especially highest level korean PvP.
it seems like ppl forgot that modern tvt looks more like wol pvp
1 base vs 1 base, while pvp on a big map always means a macro game, less common macro games on map that lesser, but still msc gives some huge depth to pvp, while tvt lacks of such core unit
"Knife fight" ZvZ > "old-style" macro TvT >>> modern PvP > modern "banshee/drops/bo win" TvT > modern Roach vs Roach.
The unpopular (I guess) part is my deep love for the insane, micro-crazy ZvZs of yore (well they still happen every now and then, but not as often). I mean, *yes*, they are horribly frustrating to *play*, but I loved watching them and this question after all refers to *watching* so the choice is obvious for me...
Apart from that, some of the most memorable games were TvTs, especially mech vs bio and to a (slightly) lesser extent mech vs mech. But I feel that nowadays those are gone as the meta shifted towards difficult to scout, yet deadly timings and semi-all-ins which usually end the game too quickly for any interesting positional play to unfold. In fact, I quite dislike TvTs now.
Recent PvPs are surprisingly good, with a good mixture of strategic play, special tactics and straight out gorgonzola. As for the old PvPs I used to dislike them as most people, but now that I think about them, I start feeling nostalgic for the 4gate... ;-P
ZvZ because there's literally no randomness in the match-up, early game is scouting and micro-intensive, while the mid-game is basically everything else
for me it is always the speedling wars into banes, into the roach ball. people hate the roach ball but if u understand its not so much the ball but the way each player is trying to get a favourable engage and u see the push pulling into position while hydra are added or if one player makes the dive to get into some other tech, it really is ninja warfare. I think this matchup is masssively helped becuase of their ability to scout. Decisions can be made. the other two just seem totally blind to a point and its just about who decided to play more safe vs the person who went balls deep
TvT - Seems really slow and boring and always seem to be decided with a banshee these days . . oh cant scan free kills guess u win then cos i didnt build that ebay, guess ill have to blind build struc next time
Pvp - Can be really good if they do the exact same thing to each other or a micro type of fight to decide . . not the ball of toss tho, unlike zerg you seem to just beable to engage anywhere just make sure u focus the right stuff. . . . and have more stuff!
I actually quite agree with people saying it's hard to judge an entire MU, it's more about early-mid-late games in certain match-ups that are worse than others. And that's true also for the non-mirrors.
On March 15 2015 21:41 Ej_ wrote: ZvZ because there's no bullshit build order wins and your macro, army positioning and multitasking matter greatly.
People seem to forget that we experienced a great deal of ZvZ build order losses in both SPL and WCS with even the players admitting that a lot of the times the opening will decide the early game - which is the part where you don't have any information about your enemy yet. The Carbot video of ZvZ explained pretty good why I dislike that matchup the most out of all. Oh, and the end of WoL still has me traumatized.
TvT used to be great but all I'm seeing lately is 1 base bullshit with boosting speedvacs, widowmines and cloaked banshees. Reminds me a lot of PvP but without the huge selection of viable openings. Would've voted for TvT if it were still those long macro slugfests. "Oh, he boosted his whole army into his opponents main and now wins" is just not exciting anymore.
Voted for PvP in the end due to its many mindgames, crazy tactics and the fact that even when it is proxy vs. proxy it still get extremely exciting because every unit counts and the micro potential is insane. PartinG vs. Classic at IEM Taipei is a good example of that. The games are always on a razor's edge the whole way through when 2 good players meet.
I usually watch SC2 tournaments on my 2nd monitor while doing other stuff. A good way to judge how exciting a matchup for me is to take note how much time I spend watching my 2nd monitor. Apart from the first few minutes I constantly watch a PvP since it is so volatile, thus creating a lot of tension that leaves me at the edge of my seat. In TvT there are plenty of situations where I just don't watch my 2nd monitor at all for a couple minutes because players are just moving their stuff around the map or are building up their army and turtle. And well... I have taken a shower and cooked dinner during ZvZ games so I guess that tells the whole story.
On March 15 2015 21:41 Ej_ wrote: ZvZ because there's no bullshit build order wins and your macro, army positioning and multitasking matter greatly.
People seem to forget that we experienced a great deal of ZvZ build order losses in both SPL and WCS with even the players admitting that a lot of the times the opening will decide the early game - which is the part where you don't have any information about your enemy yet.
Kane said it was random and there was no skill in the early game, yes. and then TLO called him out on Twitter and said he'd hold 7/10 times with the same opening and also PiG disagreed with Kane later on in an interview
On March 15 2015 09:24 Elentos wrote: TvT is shit to play, but I'd rather try than leave instantly <.<
On March 15 2015 21:42 bartus88 wrote: In terms of playing TvT is the worst by a looong shot. It is the only matchup in the game I truly despise to play.
I'm surprised, tvt is one of my favourite matchups.
ZvZ is not random at all, it's more close of chess. The fog of war is very little you can nearly take all the information if you're enough good. The early game "randomness" is due to Zerg often goes hatch first, which isn't safe against everything on early game, and on 3 or 4 players maps a lucky scout can make a big difference. Pool 15, scouting, adaptating and you can deals with everything. If you watch pro level ZvZ it's a brain game, they skip things to be greedy or they bait agression, or hidd all-in. Everyone try to get a small advantage, take calculated risk. Casual players or people who doesn't play ZvZ at a correct level, just see some all-in beating someone, and imagine it's just random luck and can't be counter, or when someone has more roach, just say : "it's just suck, no gosu micro", without understanding why someone has more roachs.
It's more a strategic show a pleasure for mind, rather than "entertaining MU, fun to watch".
Nowadays, I think it's PvP. It makes me sad that so many people are still mentally stuck in WoL and ignore all the great PvP series we've had in the past year (herO vs. Rain, PartinG vs. Classic, herO vs. MC, etc.). The mind games are especially cool. More than most other MUs, you get to see the two players mentally wrestling with each other like in a game of poker. There's just so much strategy going on in a very visible way. I enjoy it a lot more than watching roaches puking at each other, or the constant doom/drop early game nonsense that has consumed TvT recently.
On March 16 2015 00:56 Biedrik wrote: Nowadays, I think it's PvP. It makes me sad that so many people are still mentally stuck in WoL and ignore all the great PvP series we've had in the past year (herO vs. Rain, PartinG vs. Classic, herO vs. MC, etc.). The mind games are especially cool. More than most other MUs, you get to see the two players mentally wrestling with each other like in a game of poker. There's just so much strategy going on in a very visible way. I enjoy it a lot more than watching roaches puking at each other, or the constant doom/drop early game nonsense that has consumed TvT recently.
I have not watched much PvP in the last six months or so, but when I was last watching the scene actively there was a lot of build order loses in PvP and end game battles were mostly lousy Collussi wars with both players scared shitless to take an engagement on. Has improved since WoL days so definitely agree there and I have seen some good PvP games with a lot of strategy going on.
I love watching TvT the most. But man, i cannot stand playing TvT right now, its physically painful to play it. "Oh you doom dropped me while i was walking out of my natural?, gg". So gross.
On March 16 2015 01:14 rebuffering wrote: I love watching TvT the most. But man, i cannot stand playing TvT right now, its physically painful to play it. "Oh you doom dropped me while i was walking out of my natural?, gg". So gross.
Play Goody Mech and spam turrets...
It is true, playing TvT is extremly hard, because minimalst mistakes make you lose like you are waaaay below the skill of your enemy. But it is so entertaining to watch, even the 1-1-1 shenanigans
On March 15 2015 09:58 Darkhorse wrote: This is a DLO bait thread if I ever saw one
Hey there Katy! What does "DLO" mean? :-)
Cheers.
DarkLordOlli, a mod here that's known for his love of PvP.
Can we go back to where he called me "Katy"?
:-) You made a reference I didn't catch, but I guess mine was difficult aswell. Katy Perry sings on a song called "Dark Horse" (In which she refers to herself as a dark horse for some reason).
tvt seems to have the most options so i like it the most.
pvp has alot of options in the beginning but it kind of dulls down as the game goes on imo collosus vs collosus or tempest vs tempest imo is extremely dull.
zvz can have the tendency to start out dull with ling bling or mass roach but end game i think becomes better.
On March 15 2015 07:42 Apoteosis wrote: Graphic description of a zvz:
On March 16 2015 02:51 Larkin wrote: TvT can be hella boring and ZvZ hella exciting, it depends on a game to game basis and the players
I think that can be said about any MU tbh. Even my least favorite MU to play or watch, pvp can be interesting based on what strats both players go for or what not.
So I really liked today's IEM finals and feel satisfied with voting for PvP, although I rest my case that TvT can be better depending on players and meta (mech vs bio and mech vs mech are more exciting than bio/tank-yolodrops imo).
On March 16 2015 03:52 hansonslee wrote: PvP CAN be exciting like the one between herO and Rain, but you will mostly see a disappointing series like that between Zest and Trap.
There have been dozens of worse series than the one between Zest and Trap. I.e. $O$ vs herO last year.
On March 16 2015 03:52 hansonslee wrote: PvP CAN be exciting like the one between herO and Rain, but you will mostly see a disappointing series like that between Zest and Trap.
How is it disappointing considering it's PvP? It had a lot more variety than usual. Tbh most of PvPs look more like the game on Expedition lost rather than the ones in Deadwing and especially Vaani.
ZvZ is so tense and macro, micro, strategy / decision making, mind games can all decide the game, in combination moreso than in other matchups IN MY OPINION (Zerg player bias ofc)
Doomdrops have really killed my interest in TvT. PvP is nice cause protoss bullshit killing protoss feels warm and cuddly ZvZ is my favourite but i think it was better before the spore buff. It´s easy to see why people like their own mirror because they understand whats happening. Other mirrors are harder to understand because you don´t have much experience with those races as a player.
TvT wins. Early game is tricky. Doomdrops through turretrings are stupid. And 1-2base attacks end many games too early. But all of that is less prevalent than in the other mirrors.
ZvZ is really good if it goes into macro in terms of action and skillintensity. With a severe lack of strategic diversity.
PvP would be amazing if expansion builds were viable. But the BO-advantages and -wins of 1base openings ruin it for me.
TvT is really boring, there are very few occasionally good games I have seen but overall very boring, today's games would have been good if zest hadn't won....zvz is still fun to watch, a bitch to play though
EPT
ZvZ is my favourite but i think it was better before the spore buff. It´s easy to see why people like their own mirror because they understand whats happening. Other mirrors are harder to understand because you don´t have much experience with those races as a player.
