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Canada13389 Posts
On February 22 2015 12:36 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 12:08 -NegativeZero- wrote:On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote:
I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again. Agreed, but after the crime against humanity that was TLMC4 I'm just glad that all of the finalists this time are at least decent maps. Decent's not enough for me, and the 2p ban is no longer an excuse. Try this list on for size: Trapped Under Ice Apotheosis Monterey Evergreen Terrace Daydreams Neo Emerald Plaza Korhal Killzone And for bonus bias points: Sol Dios Demon's Claw All of which imo exhibit a level of concept and polish that is largely missing from the real finalists. I feel any reason those maps got passed over wasn't something a minor adjustment couldn't fix, but the judges opted for the safer alternatives. The word of pro players is not law, bear in mind, there is some pushing that needs to be done, but it's not to be seen here.
We included neo emerald
Apotheosis and evergreen terrace were close to being on the finalists, and trapped under ice was on the shortlist as well.
TBH Apotheosis is very similar to Coda/Echo in terms of layout. Sure we could have included it but we didnt want three similar maps in the top list -- we wanted some variety so we chose only 2 of those 3 (and there were 3 others that were similar in layout we also cut for final list!).
Evergreen Terrace we actually played quite a few games on, got some NA GMs to play on that as well and there were some issues with it that we felt kept it from being as good a map as the others. IMO none of the finalists are immediate vetoes for any one race which is to a certain extent I think a decent goal in map selection.
How many times have you seen a map and gone - yup, thats a veto on ladder. Considering blizz is choosing an undetermined number of maps to eventually see ladder (aside from the winner being lotv beta map) we wanted to not have "insta vetoes" if we could find them. Evergreen terrace like all 4p maps has rotational imbalance which we felt wasn't quite outweighed by the positives and feedback has been provided to the mapmaker to improve the map. Did you know there are nearly 20 full "screens" of just blank air space on the map? Not very fun to play on to be honest.
As you are talking "bias"
We had zero clue who had made which map. Mapmakers names did not factor into the votes or map selection at all.
Also Sol Dios - I was really close to voting it into more than the shortlist. I think aesthetically its great, and it has a very cool form of symmetry. But my personal perspective was that the other maps were just better. And also that sol dios suffers from a similar issue we saw on habitation station where part of the map wouldn't get used much, but I think it has potential and in a contest where less 2 player maps get a spotlight I would have placed it higher. As it stands, it BARELY made the cut.
You act as though we just got a list of maps and said "I like this one" and that was it. a lot more went into map selection and testing than this. So please don't say we are biased.
If anything the fact Uvantak shows up in TLMC so much should be testament to his ability to make maps well and people should be looking for advice and help from him more than simply writing off his accolades as mere "bias"
On February 22 2015 14:19 ivancype wrote:
If I could I would completely replace the current ladder map pool with these finalists. Even my least favorite finalist map, Adun's Shrine (which btw reminds me of Frost), is cooler than any ladder map.
It reminded me of frost too! and the multiple thin paths are pretty new 
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Austria24417 Posts
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
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I am rather happy about the maps, but Uvantak always wants to make his clone of Cloud Kingdom 
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On February 22 2015 15:44 ZeromuS wrote:
Apotheosis and evergreen terrace were close to being on the finalists, and trapped under ice was on the shortlist as well.
TBH Apotheosis is very similar to Coda/Echo in terms of layout. Sure we could have included it but we didnt want three similar maps in the top list -- we wanted some variety so we chose only 2 of those 3 (and there were 3 others that were similar in layout we also cut for final list!).
For feedback/possible revision purposes could you pls explain why Coda and Echo were chosen over Apotheosis?
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On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
Wait are you saying Nimbus was experimental? Cuz I don't see that. In fact, the more experimental maps in recent times have done very well: Foxtrot Labs and King Sejong Station both have incredibly good win rate splits, and before that I don't remember anyone complaining about Habitation Station -- it was the jewel of Proleague (and Redbull!). Even now Expedition Lost is doing well but for its TvZ matchup. In fact, I don't just disagree with you, I think the opposite of what you're saying is far more accurate.
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On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
I'm sorry but Nimbus is nowhere near an experimental map, it is just a rotational 4p map which, just like any rotational 4p map, have rotational imbalance (iirc it's even the reason it didn't get in the finalists of TLMC4). Foxtrot or Habitation Station are way closer to experimental maps than Nimbus, and both display balanced statistics and have produced great games. On the other hand Yeonsu, which is far from being experimental, displays terrible statistics. A lot of people think that "standard map = good map" and "experimental map = bad map" but that's just bullshit.
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Austria24417 Posts
On February 22 2015 18:37 SeinGalton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while. Wait are you saying Nimbus was experimental? Cuz I don't see that. In fact, the more experimental maps in recent times have done very well: Foxtrot Labs and King Sejong Station both have incredibly good win rate splits, and before that I don't remember anyone complaining about Habitation Station -- it was the jewel of Proleague (and Redbull!). Even now Expedition Lost is doing well but for its TvZ matchup. In fact, I don't just disagree with you, I think the opposite of what you're saying is far more accurate.
Nimbus was definitely experimental with the sort of forward backdoor natural and the big main ramp with rocks. KSS was great, sure, Foxtrot labs was universally hated among pros. Expedition lost is a horrible map for protoss in general and possibly in other matchups too. Habitation Station was alright I suppose but watching terrans float to the gold base every game or protoss doing gold -> all in builds, which only got more common, certainly wasn't fun for a lot of people.
I don't want the map to dictate how the game is played, I want a map to offer different possibilities that each have their own advantages and downsides. Players should have a chance to play a completely standard game if they feel like it, which quite simply was not the best way to play on some of these maps.
Just give me at least one season with standard maps again before we probably go back to ridiculously stupid maps like those in the current map pool.
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On February 22 2015 19:08 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 18:37 SeinGalton wrote:On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while. Wait are you saying Nimbus was experimental? Cuz I don't see that. In fact, the more experimental maps in recent times have done very well: Foxtrot Labs and King Sejong Station both have incredibly good win rate splits, and before that I don't remember anyone complaining about Habitation Station -- it was the jewel of Proleague (and Redbull!). Even now Expedition Lost is doing well but for its TvZ matchup. In fact, I don't just disagree with you, I think the opposite of what you're saying is far more accurate. Nimbus was definitely experimental with the sort of forward backdoor natural and the big main ramp with rocks. KSS was great, sure, Foxtrot labs was universally hated among pros. Expedition lost is a horrible map for protoss in general and possibly in other matchups too. Habitation Station was alright I suppose but watching terrans float to the gold base every game or protoss doing gold -> all in builds, which only got more common, certainly wasn't fun for a lot of people. I don't want the map to dictate how the game is played, I want a map to offer different possibilities that each have their own advantages and downsides. Players should have a chance to play a completely standard game if they feel like it, which quite simply was not the best way to play on some of these maps. Just give me at least one season with standard maps again before we probably go back to ridiculously stupid maps like those in the current map pool.
The last community mappool was only so bad because Nimbus and Catallena were incredibly broken maps and Deadwing and Foxtrot also opened up with lower than 45% winchance for a long time (Foxtrot got figured out better; Deadwing is still a Protoss-pile-of-horsecrap). Nothing that cannot happen with any of these finalist maps.
It has little to do with experimental features, aside from the stupid idea that Foxtrot would be playable in horizontal positions (which got turned off pretty fast)... Nimbus wasn't that experimental. We've had those natural layouts before. Nimbus and Catallena are just rotational imbalance, something that will happen more often than not if you use the fundamentally imbalanced concept of rotational "symmetry", which is why back in the days cross-spawns were enforced on those sorts of maps. No clue why people acted all surprised that those maps were a disaster, there's always a good chance they will become one.
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On February 22 2015 15:44 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 12:36 NewSunshine wrote:On February 22 2015 12:08 -NegativeZero- wrote:On February 22 2015 06:33 NewSunshine wrote:
I could go on, at some considerable length, about all the problems I have with this set of finalists, how it in no fair way represents what the community is truly capable of, all the amazing maps that got completely glossed over, how this truly staggering set of prizes is being awarded to maps that frankly aren't the best of the best, but I'll spare everyone the grief.
Congrats Uvantak and Iezael, you've won yet again. Agreed, but after the crime against humanity that was TLMC4 I'm just glad that all of the finalists this time are at least decent maps. Decent's not enough for me, and the 2p ban is no longer an excuse. Try this list on for size: Trapped Under Ice Apotheosis Monterey Evergreen Terrace Daydreams Neo Emerald Plaza Korhal Killzone And for bonus bias points: Sol Dios Demon's Claw All of which imo exhibit a level of concept and polish that is largely missing from the real finalists. I feel any reason those maps got passed over wasn't something a minor adjustment couldn't fix, but the judges opted for the safer alternatives. The word of pro players is not law, bear in mind, there is some pushing that needs to be done, but it's not to be seen here. We included neo emerald Apotheosis and evergreen terrace were close to being on the finalists, and trapped under ice was on the shortlist as well. TBH Apotheosis is very similar to Coda/Echo in terms of layout. Sure we could have included it but we didnt want three similar maps in the top list -- we wanted some variety so we chose only 2 of those 3 (and there were 3 others that were similar in layout we also cut for final list!). Evergreen Terrace we actually played quite a few games on, got some NA GMs to play on that as well and there were some issues with it that we felt kept it from being as good a map as the others. IMO none of the finalists are immediate vetoes for any one race which is to a certain extent I think a decent goal in map selection. How many times have you seen a map and gone - yup, thats a veto on ladder. Considering blizz is choosing an undetermined number of maps to eventually see ladder (aside from the winner being lotv beta map) we wanted to not have "insta vetoes" if we could find them. Evergreen terrace like all 4p maps has rotational imbalance which we felt wasn't quite outweighed by the positives and feedback has been provided to the mapmaker to improve the map. Did you know there are nearly 20 full "screens" of just blank air space on the map? Not very fun to play on to be honest. As you are talking "bias" We had zero clue who had made which map. Mapmakers names did not factor into the votes or map selection at all. Also Sol Dios - I was really close to voting it into more than the shortlist. I think aesthetically its great, and it has a very cool form of symmetry. But my personal perspective was that the other maps were just better. And also that sol dios suffers from a similar issue we saw on habitation station where part of the map wouldn't get used much, but I think it has potential and in a contest where less 2 player maps get a spotlight I would have placed it higher. As it stands, it BARELY made the cut. You act as though we just got a list of maps and said "I like this one" and that was it. a lot more went into map selection and testing than this. So please don't say we are biased. If anything the fact Uvantak shows up in TLMC so much should be testament to his ability to make maps well and people should be looking for advice and help from him more than simply writing off his accolades as mere "bias" Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 14:19 ivancype wrote:
If I could I would completely replace the current ladder map pool with these finalists. Even my least favorite finalist map, Adun's Shrine (which btw reminds me of Frost), is cooler than any ladder map. It reminded me of frost too! and the multiple thin paths are pretty new
There's a fair amount of frustration in my text, sure, but you actually misunderatand my use of the word bias. I wasn't projecting bias onto you guys, merely I was putting forth a list of what I might pick for finalists, but the last two are my own, so I appended them. That's entirely separate from my real gripe.
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Echo or Ganymede? Hrmmm...
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On February 22 2015 17:23 fezvez wrote:I am rather happy about the maps, but Uvantak always wants to make his clone of Cloud Kingdom
That is COMPLETELY true, he loves Cloud Kingdom.
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Austria24417 Posts
Everybody loves cloud kingdom!
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On February 23 2015 01:16 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Everybody loves cloud kingdom!
CK was the shit. Too bad that HotS broke it...
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On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while.
I agree. Recent experimental maps tended to turn out shitty, with the exception of Foxtrot Labs. Those maps seem really solid and should have a good lifespan if they ever get on ladder/WCS.
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On February 22 2015 17:23 fezvez wrote:I am rather happy about the maps, but Uvantak always wants to make his clone of Cloud Kingdom
For TLMC? Sure, for other contests and such not so much actually.
My Map List
One of these days i'll achieve it!
On February 22 2015 19:06 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while. I'm sorry but Nimbus is nowhere near an experimental map, it is just a rotational 4p map which, + Show Spoiler + just like any rotational 4p map, have rotational imbalance (iirc it's even the reason it didn't get in the finalists of TLMC4). Foxtrot or Habitation Station are way closer to experimental maps than Nimbus, and both display balanced statistics and have produced great games. On the other hand Yeonsu, which is far from being experimental, displays terrible statistics. A lot of people think that "standard map = good map" and "experimental map = bad map" but that's just bullshit.
Actually i would say that for his time Nimbus was quite the nonstandard map, more closer to experimental than non-Horiz spawn Foxtrot or HS, just because of the heavily asymmetrical layout, but that goes more into the semantics side of things, so wherever, but yeah, compared to lets say Koprulu, Nimbus isn't as experimental.
On February 22 2015 19:08 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2015 18:37 SeinGalton wrote:On February 22 2015 16:59 DarkLordOlli wrote:
We've had a ton of experimental maps recently and they haven't worked out. AT ALL. We've had maps that terribly favored certain races over others (have you ever played vs T on nimbus in close by air spawns? etc) l. Before that we had blink heaven maps. I for one am incredibly happy that we might finally be going back to more standard maps, at least for a while. Wait are you saying Nimbus was experimental? Cuz I don't see that. In fact, the more experimental maps in recent times have done very well: Foxtrot Labs and King Sejong Station both have incredibly good win rate splits, and before that I don't remember anyone complaining about Habitation Station -- it was the jewel of Proleague (and Redbull!). Even now Expedition Lost is doing well but for its TvZ matchup. In fact, I don't just disagree with you, I think the opposite of what you're saying is far more accurate. + Show Spoiler +
Nimbus was definitely experimental with the sort of forward backdoor natural and the big main ramp with rocks. KSS was great, sure, Foxtrot labs was universally hated among pros. Expedition lost is a horrible map for protoss in general and possibly in other matchups too.
, certainly wasn't fun for a lot of people.
I don't want the map to dictate how the game is played, I want a map to offer different possibilities that each have their own advantages and downsides. Players should have a chance to play a completely standard game if they feel like it, which quite simply was not the best way to play on some of these maps.
Just give me at least one season with standard maps again before we probably go back to ridiculously stupid maps like those in the current map pool.
This is not necessarily the fault of the map at all, and HS shouldn't be judged because of that, this is an issue with the length of the WCS seasons, where maps end up being played to exhaustion, you can bet your ass that if a ICCup like system of MotW or MotM or even each two months was put in place with older and new maps being played you basically wouldn't see this problem. The issue of forcing maps to be played on such huge lengths of time is that you are forcing maps to all be more or less standard, every single one, and from a viewer perspective this is simply not interesting (SC2 is an E-Sport).
I was going to say something else, but i forgot... Hmmm, Oh yeah, i would love to hear why, HyperLink, Monterrey, Kylskada, Paralda, Rao Mesa and Samarra Mines didn't made it, all of these maps, i considered to have a solid shot at the TLMC, even more so than Emerald Plaza or Timberwolf, i know that the general mood of the judges varies depending on what maps have been on the pool the last seasons, and this corresponds to a craving for more standard solid maps, but still, i'm quite surprised that Kylskada or Samarra didn't made it.
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^Looking at all of your maps again I really regret that Kamala Park, Mujo Gardens and Samarra Mines never made it to the ladder. These are so so gorgeous and great. Btw, when will you make a thread for Ganymede and Echo?
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Oh for sure, as soon as the voting is over.
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On February 23 2015 02:02 OtherWorld wrote:
^Looking at all of your maps again I really regret that Kamala Park, Mujo Gardens and Samarra Mines never made it to the ladder. These are so so gorgeous and great. Btw, when will you make a thread for Ganymede and Echo?
Kamala Park is one of my greatest regrets too. I played that map a lot on customs and vs AI but I wish that map had got some time on ladder.
God I still can't accept Biome won TLMC4 
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On February 23 2015 02:19 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2015 02:02 OtherWorld wrote:
^Looking at all of your maps again I really regret that Kamala Park, Mujo Gardens and Samarra Mines never made it to the ladder. These are so so gorgeous and great. Btw, when will you make a thread for Ganymede and Echo? Kamala Park is one of my greatest regrets too. I played that map a lot on customs and vs AI but I wish that map had got some time on ladder.
Yep I used to play it with friends when we wanted something else than ladder maps. It brought some great games in the Nation Wars² too.
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Austria24417 Posts
Yeah, I play-tested Kamala Park. It felt completely natural to play on and was probably the most visually pleasing map I've ever seen. Incredibly sad it didn't make it in.
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EPT
