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Original : http://www.sc2improve.net/blog/2015/2/8/sc2i-winter-series-korean-betting
Tonight it came to my attention that the SC2Improve Winter Series may be being used as a front for illegal betting in Korea. Over the past week there has been more and more talk about illegal betting and I was already slightly worried about the Winter Series potentially being involved. With the revelations tonight I have decided it is safest to cut all attachments to our sponsor for the Winter Series.
The sponsor approached me after I casted the Connsi Christmas League in December. He asked me if I would run an event for him and he proposed the format of the Winter Series. I knew that these guys had been the sponsors of the previous Connecting Slovenia tournament as well and so I knew they paid prizes for the events they sponsored, which was the main concern for me going into this sponsorship.
The set-up is very similar to what others have described for the illegal betting. He asked to observe in-game, which is something I knew they previously did for the Connecting Slovenia tournaments, and asked for a five minute delay to be set (which is less than what other tournaments have been running on, apparently.) Personally I found both requests fairly reasonable, though I didn't really know why they wanted to be in the game I assumed they just wanted to be around should something happen or perhaps they were collecting the replays. The delay I found to be perfectly reasonable as well. Usually I run SC2ITL broadcasts with a 2-3 minute delay, but a 5 minute delay for a larger tournament with a higher prize pool at stake seemed fair.
The last thing I thought would come of this would be a betting scandal - but now that the problem has been highlighted it seems obvious that this is what it is. I don't believe match fixing was a part of this, but it is something that I cannot be sure about as the sponsor did provide about half of the players who took part in the competition.
I am more than happy to talk in more detail with anybody who has the need for information and you can contact me via the website you are reading this statement on.
Going forward I do not want this to be something we dwell on. Starcraft is a game I love and which I have a lot of passion for, which is why I spend hours every week running SC2Improve, organizing tournaments and casting matches. As time goes by it's heartbreaking to see that we are hit by wave after wave of negativity and I'm sure this latest drama is going to hit hard.
I have decided I will run the rest of the SC2Improve Winter Series from my own pocket, with a decreased prize pool of $1000 for the main final event (which was originally going to be $3000). There will be no in-game observers apart from me. This Tuesday we will have Week 6 of the competition and the players who advance in first and second will be payed the $150 and $50 respectively as in previous groups. For Weeks 7 & 8 I will be running the groups purely as qualifiers into the main event, without a prize. I might even change it to be an open-bracket qualifier, as I know there was a lot of interest from players to take part who have not had the chance. More information will be posted soon.
Wardí
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Excellent move. Thanks for that insight.
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Good for you! I will be sure to tune in and give you my advertising attention. I promise to watch every ad (even if its those horrible 3 minute ads) and never hit that skip button.
You, good sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!
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On February 09 2015 09:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Good for you! I will be sure to tune in and give you my advertising attention. I promise to watch every ad (even if its those horrible 3 minute ads) and never hit that skip button.
You, good sir, are a gentleman and a scholar!
Does skipping those horrible long ads not give revenue? Cuase I've been hit by 10+ ads before and no reasnoable person will ever miss an entire game for one ad.
And thanks for the honesty and clarity OP, glad we finally got a statement from someone.
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On February 09 2015 09:44 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 09:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Good for you! I will be sure to tune in and give you my advertising attention. I promise to watch every ad (even if its those horrible 3 minute ads) and never hit that skip button.
You, good sir, are a gentleman and a scholar! Does skipping those horrible long ads not give revenue? Cuase I've been hit by 10+ ads before and no reasnoable person will ever miss an entire game for one ad. And thanks for the honesty and clarity OP, glad we finally got a statement from someone.
I am not sure about Twitch's ad platform, but I know that YouTube's skip button does not give revenue to the content developer, unless the audience watched at least 50% of the ad.
edit: As well, I don't think those long ads are used for pre-roll. Most pre-roll ads are the standard 30sec, so you shouldn't miss too much of the action if you start watching a game in progress.
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Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand how you can be 100% sure the sponsor's behavior was related to illegal betting just because he asked to observe the game.
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On February 09 2015 09:47 KingAlphard wrote:
Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand how you can be 100% sure the sponsor's behavior was related to illegal betting just because he asked to observe the game.
He can't, but for the sake of integrity he isn't taking any chances.
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On February 09 2015 09:48 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 09:47 KingAlphard wrote:
Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand how you can be 100% sure the sponsor's behavior was related to illegal betting just because he asked to observe the game. He can't, but for the sake of integrity he isn't taking any chances.
^ This. As the statement says, the delay is not as long as other tournaments which were flagged up earlier, but it is a very similar situation. No point taking the risk.
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Well that is a respectful decision you made there.
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On February 09 2015 09:30 SC2Improve wrote:
I don't believe match fixing was a part of this, but it is something that I cannot be sure about as the sponsor did provide about half of the players who took part in the competition.
Crosscheck the names to other tournaments the same sponsor sponsored. If the same players were provided to those tournaments you have a bingo.
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On February 09 2015 09:55 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 09:30 SC2Improve wrote:
I don't believe match fixing was a part of this, but it is something that I cannot be sure about as the sponsor did provide about half of the players who took part in the competition.
Crosscheck the names to other tournaments the same sponsor sponsored. If the same players were provided to those tournaments you have a bingo.
Does not necessarily mean match fixing. I assume a lot of the names would match because they only have a certain number of contacts. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume someone could be invited to a tournament because it's easy to contact them etc. without them being match fixers.
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On February 09 2015 09:46 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 09:44 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On February 09 2015 09:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Good for you! I will be sure to tune in and give you my advertising attention. I promise to watch every ad (even if its those horrible 3 minute ads) and never hit that skip button.
You, good sir, are a gentleman and a scholar! Does skipping those horrible long ads not give revenue? Cuase I've been hit by 10+ ads before and no reasnoable person will ever miss an entire game for one ad. And thanks for the honesty and clarity OP, glad we finally got a statement from someone. I am not sure about Twitch's ad platform, but I know that YouTube's skip button does not give revenue to the content developer, unless the audience watched at least 50% of the ad. edit: As well, I don't think those long ads are used for pre-roll. Most pre-roll ads are the standard 30sec, so you shouldn't miss too much of the action if you start watching a game in progress.
I watched BTTV once without adsblock, and got a 37 minutes (yes thirty seven) ads during the 2min ads break. So yeah can definitively miss some gameplay if not skipping or having blockers.
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Good reaction, got your tournament a new viewer 
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Wow this a move that takes some serious integrity, OP. Good on you.
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You're a good man Wardi, thanks for all you do for SC2.
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On February 09 2015 11:05 varsovie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 09:46 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On February 09 2015 09:44 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On February 09 2015 09:42 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Good for you! I will be sure to tune in and give you my advertising attention. I promise to watch every ad (even if its those horrible 3 minute ads) and never hit that skip button.
You, good sir, are a gentleman and a scholar! Does skipping those horrible long ads not give revenue? Cuase I've been hit by 10+ ads before and no reasnoable person will ever miss an entire game for one ad. And thanks for the honesty and clarity OP, glad we finally got a statement from someone. I am not sure about Twitch's ad platform, but I know that YouTube's skip button does not give revenue to the content developer, unless the audience watched at least 50% of the ad. edit: As well, I don't think those long ads are used for pre-roll. Most pre-roll ads are the standard 30sec, so you shouldn't miss too much of the action if you start watching a game in progress. I watched BTTV once without adsblock, and got a 37 minutes (yes thirty seven) ads during the 2min ads break. So yeah can definitively miss some gameplay if not skipping or having blockers.
I fucking hate those loooooong ads, and I think Twitch/Amazon should bury those deep in the depths of advertising hell.
I fortunately don't see them very often though. I really don't understand why some platforms still roll those. Ads should be as unobtrusive as possible, and nothing is more obtrusive as a 30+ minute ad.
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Does not necessarily mean match fixing. I assume a lot of the names would match because they only have a certain number of contacts. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume someone could be invited to a tournament because it's easy to contact them etc. without them being match fixers.
If there was match fixing taking place at all, why have a spectator at all? It would just tip people off that something was up. It wouldn't affect anything because, in theory, the outcome is known already.
I think the tournaments with these spectators are the ones least likely to involve match fixing.
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Wardi is, and always has been, a respectable man.
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On February 09 2015 12:10 HewTheTitan wrote:Show nested quote +Does not necessarily mean match fixing. I assume a lot of the names would match because they only have a certain number of contacts. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume someone could be invited to a tournament because it's easy to contact them etc. without them being match fixers. If there was match fixing taking place at all, why have a spectator at all? It would just tip people off that something was up. It wouldn't affect anything because, in theory, the outcome is known already. I think the tournaments with these spectators are the ones least likely to involve match fixing.
Its not match fixing. They don't care who wins. They just want to place large bets in advantageous situations. Having 5 minutes more information than everyone else is there method of gaining that advantage.
Think card counting in blackjack. It only gives you a 2-3% edge over the house. I guess this is the same thing to them
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Mute City2363 Posts
On February 09 2015 12:53 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 12:10 HewTheTitan wrote:Does not necessarily mean match fixing. I assume a lot of the names would match because they only have a certain number of contacts. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume someone could be invited to a tournament because it's easy to contact them etc. without them being match fixers. If there was match fixing taking place at all, why have a spectator at all? It would just tip people off that something was up. It wouldn't affect anything because, in theory, the outcome is known already. I think the tournaments with these spectators are the ones least likely to involve match fixing. Its not match fixing. They don't care who wins. They just want to place large bets in advantageous situations. Having 5 minutes more information than everyone else is there method of gaining that advantage. Think card counting in blackjack. It only gives you a 2-3% edge over the house. I guess this is the same thing to them
TBF, I'd say that 5-10 minutes of advantage in SC2 will give you a hell of a lot more than a 2-3% edge
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On February 09 2015 13:14 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 12:53 Orcasgt24 wrote:On February 09 2015 12:10 HewTheTitan wrote:Does not necessarily mean match fixing. I assume a lot of the names would match because they only have a certain number of contacts. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume someone could be invited to a tournament because it's easy to contact them etc. without them being match fixers. If there was match fixing taking place at all, why have a spectator at all? It would just tip people off that something was up. It wouldn't affect anything because, in theory, the outcome is known already. I think the tournaments with these spectators are the ones least likely to involve match fixing. Its not match fixing. They don't care who wins. They just want to place large bets in advantageous situations. Having 5 minutes more information than everyone else is there method of gaining that advantage. Think card counting in blackjack. It only gives you a 2-3% edge over the house. I guess this is the same thing to them TBF, I'd say that 5-10 minutes of advantage in SC2 will give you a hell of a lot more than a 2-3% edge
Yeah, more like 97-98%.
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Yeah this is a seperate issue to match fixing if the players aren't involved here, it's closer to illegal maphacking for sportsbettors. I'm concerned match fixing is happening as well (see other thread; and MMA and Solar have confirmed they've been receiving offers and reporting them + some lesser known players so the offers are being made, and there is circumstantial evidence in betting patterns that some players may be accepting them), but there are two separate matters; knowing what happens in the first 10 minutes of a game will give you a huge edge betting as one player will usually be a huge favourite to win at that point especially because 10 real minutes are more than 10 in game minutes, some matches are effectively decided by that time.
We need to stamp both of these things out of the game ASAP.
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Solid statement by Wardii, that's pretty much exactly what happened to me but it's a little more deep.
I wont be making an official statement like this, I have a lot more information which I don't know if I can share. However for those interested I've given Richard Lewis a very thorough (3 page) statement with a lot of screen shots of conversations and how everything went down which will hopefully be out soon.
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On February 09 2015 14:18 Pughy wrote:
Solid statement by Wardii, that's pretty much exactly what happened to me but it's a little more deep.
I wont be making an official statement like this, I have a lot more information which I don't know if I can share. However for those interested I've given Richard Lewis a very thorough (3 page) statement with a lot of screen shots of conversations and how everything went down which will hopefully be out soon.
Very interested to see what comes out of this. It's interesting Richard has sort of been put in charge of sorting all this out.
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On February 09 2015 14:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 14:18 Pughy wrote:
Solid statement by Wardii, that's pretty much exactly what happened to me but it's a little more deep.
I wont be making an official statement like this, I have a lot more information which I don't know if I can share. However for those interested I've given Richard Lewis a very thorough (3 page) statement with a lot of screen shots of conversations and how everything went down which will hopefully be out soon. Very interested to see what comes out of this. It's interesting Richard has sort of been put in charge of sorting all this out.
Richard's knows the SC2 scene kinda well, I've known him for a few years and IMO he's a great journalist. CS:GO credit him alot with helping the recent match fixing stuff.
HuK's doing some pretty good PI work as well, I give him a chunk of information after he asked me to appear on Remax this tuesday. Quite funny, the Korean sponsor messaged me while talking to HuK and HuK asked for his skype now they're chatting. Korean also said he'll be doing an interview with a Korean journalist to proof hes innocent, so yeah stay tuned.
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On February 09 2015 14:26 Pughy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 14:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On February 09 2015 14:18 Pughy wrote:
Solid statement by Wardii, that's pretty much exactly what happened to me but it's a little more deep.
I wont be making an official statement like this, I have a lot more information which I don't know if I can share. However for those interested I've given Richard Lewis a very thorough (3 page) statement with a lot of screen shots of conversations and how everything went down which will hopefully be out soon. Very interested to see what comes out of this. It's interesting Richard has sort of been put in charge of sorting all this out. Richard's knows the SC2 scene kinda well, I've known him for a few years and IMO he's a great journalist. CS:GO credit him alot with helping the recent match fixing stuff. HuK's doing some pretty good PI work as well, I give him a chunk of information after he asked me to appear on Remax this tuesday. Quite funny, the Korean sponsor messaged me while talking to HuK and HuK asked for his skype now they're chatting. Korean also said he'll be doing an interview with a Korean journalist to proof hes innocent, so yeah stay tuned.
Oh shit this is gonan get juicier and juicier. PI Huk is on the case now boys.
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Good reaction, grats to you and good luck with the remaining series !
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I think it's fine to accept sponsor, but state your own rules, that no in-game observer other than yourself, and no invited players are allowed.
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I think it sounds fishy that such a big part of the players come into it through the sponsor. Many of these casters thats been sponsored like this would probably not have any problem getting decent players for theirm tournament without the sponsor pitching in half of them. Then why would the sponsor do that? Especially with only 5 minutes delay it sounds fishy that it would be for betting with the delay.
I mean in LOTV it would be a whole other ball game seeing the first 5 minutes of the game but in hots I would be very very hard pressed to be able to call a standard game within a 5 minutes time-frame.
Feels more likely that 1) This sponsor isn't actually a front for illegal betting but just a regular sponsor 2) He has connectiions with the 50% of players that he brings in and matchfixing is going on.
I mean seriously, do you guys think you can call a game after 4 minutes? (seeing as it takes time to relay information and actually place the bets before the betting closes)
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Mute City2363 Posts
On February 09 2015 17:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
I think it sounds fishy that such a big part of the players come into it through the sponsor. Many of these casters thats been sponsored like this would probably not have any problem getting decent players for theirm tournament without the sponsor pitching in half of them. Then why would the sponsor do that? Especially with only 5 minutes delay it sounds fishy that it would be for betting with the delay.
I mean in LOTV it would be a whole other ball game seeing the first 5 minutes of the game but in hots I would be very very hard pressed to be able to call a standard game within a 5 minutes time-frame.
Feels more likely that 1) This sponsor isn't actually a front for illegal betting but just a regular sponsor 2) He has connectiions with the 50% of players that he brings in and matchfixing is going on.
I mean seriously, do you guys think you can call a game after 4 minutes? (seeing as it takes time to relay information and actually place the bets before the betting closes)
Firstly, remember that it's 5-10 minutes real time, not Blizzard time.
Secondly, it's not about getting it right 100% of the time. Obviously there will be games which are slow from the start, with no side gaining any real advantage early on. But the sheer number of games which give one player a significant advantage early on means that the odds will be heavily tilted in your favour if you're betting across a large number of games. On average, you'll easily come out on top
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Northern Ireland26745 Posts
On February 09 2015 14:28 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 14:26 Pughy wrote:On February 09 2015 14:20 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On February 09 2015 14:18 Pughy wrote:
Solid statement by Wardii, that's pretty much exactly what happened to me but it's a little more deep.
I wont be making an official statement like this, I have a lot more information which I don't know if I can share. However for those interested I've given Richard Lewis a very thorough (3 page) statement with a lot of screen shots of conversations and how everything went down which will hopefully be out soon. Very interested to see what comes out of this. It's interesting Richard has sort of been put in charge of sorting all this out. Richard's knows the SC2 scene kinda well, I've known him for a few years and IMO he's a great journalist. CS:GO credit him alot with helping the recent match fixing stuff. HuK's doing some pretty good PI work as well, I give him a chunk of information after he asked me to appear on Remax this tuesday. Quite funny, the Korean sponsor messaged me while talking to HuK and HuK asked for his skype now they're chatting. Korean also said he'll be doing an interview with a Korean journalist to proof hes innocent, so yeah stay tuned. Oh shit this is gonan get juicier and juicier. PI Huk is on the case now boys.
PI Huk is just one of these moments that makes me wish I had any competence with Photoshop
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On February 09 2015 17:38 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 17:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
I think it sounds fishy that such a big part of the players come into it through the sponsor. Many of these casters thats been sponsored like this would probably not have any problem getting decent players for theirm tournament without the sponsor pitching in half of them. Then why would the sponsor do that? Especially with only 5 minutes delay it sounds fishy that it would be for betting with the delay.
I mean in LOTV it would be a whole other ball game seeing the first 5 minutes of the game but in hots I would be very very hard pressed to be able to call a standard game within a 5 minutes time-frame.
Feels more likely that 1) This sponsor isn't actually a front for illegal betting but just a regular sponsor 2) He has connectiions with the 50% of players that he brings in and matchfixing is going on.
I mean seriously, do you guys think you can call a game after 4 minutes? (seeing as it takes time to relay information and actually place the bets before the betting closes) Firstly, remember that it's 5-10 minutes real time, not Blizzard time. Secondly, it's not about getting it right 100% of the time. Obviously there will be games which are slow from the start, with no side gaining any real advantage early on. But the sheer number of games which give one player a significant advantage early on means that the odds will be heavily tilted in your favour if you're betting across a large number of games. On average, you'll easily come out on top
Good point that it isn't Blizzard time, didn't think about that. Also I guess that if they don't see any clear favorite after those 5 mins they can just pass on betting and wait for when they can actually tell who will win in that time frame.
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On February 09 2015 18:14 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2015 17:38 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On February 09 2015 17:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
I think it sounds fishy that such a big part of the players come into it through the sponsor. Many of these casters thats been sponsored like this would probably not have any problem getting decent players for theirm tournament without the sponsor pitching in half of them. Then why would the sponsor do that? Especially with only 5 minutes delay it sounds fishy that it would be for betting with the delay.
I mean in LOTV it would be a whole other ball game seeing the first 5 minutes of the game but in hots I would be very very hard pressed to be able to call a standard game within a 5 minutes time-frame.
Feels more likely that 1) This sponsor isn't actually a front for illegal betting but just a regular sponsor 2) He has connectiions with the 50% of players that he brings in and matchfixing is going on.
I mean seriously, do you guys think you can call a game after 4 minutes? (seeing as it takes time to relay information and actually place the bets before the betting closes) Firstly, remember that it's 5-10 minutes real time, not Blizzard time. Secondly, it's not about getting it right 100% of the time. Obviously there will be games which are slow from the start, with no side gaining any real advantage early on. But the sheer number of games which give one player a significant advantage early on means that the odds will be heavily tilted in your favour if you're betting across a large number of games. On average, you'll easily come out on top Good point that it isn't Blizzard time, didn't think about that. Also I guess that if they don't see any clear favorite after those 5 mins they can just pass on betting and wait for when they can actually tell who will win in that time frame.
In mirrors you usually see who will win it in 5 mins real time. You place your bets after the 6-7th min of ingame/blizz time, where in ZvZ ling bane should happen real hard, in PvP warp gate is finished and action takes places and in TvT the gas first builds have bursted in and shown how much dmg they did.
If we talk about 10 min delay, you have a ingame time where 2 base allins have happend and you should be able to judge a match by 80%. If you jugde both are even, bet on the next game, who cares, a series with 16-32 players has a large amount of games. You will be even with your sponsorship after 3-5 betted on games and then it is $$$.
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EPT
