Scarlett seems uninterested in how her hobby is categorised. At 20, she has earned a good living from StarCraft II, winning $111,000 in tournaments and thousands more while playing in a team league. She has become famous for her daring strategies on the digital pitch and also brave in her decision to reveal that she is transgender within a culture around video games that is often associated with misogyny.
"I plan to go to college next," she says. "Maybe study Korean or computer science. I think e-sports players should think about higher education before they get too old. We don't know how popular this will be in the future. If you focus 100% on e-sports till you are 35 or so and it doesn't continue to become mainstream, I think it could be harder in life later on."1
Once concern that plagues this, the first generation of so-called cyber athletes, is shared with their counterparts in physical sport: for how long will their minds and bodies be quick enough to enable top-level play. While e-sports are a sedentary pursuit, one's action-per-minute rate (how many clicks of the mouse and keyboard one is able to make) is crucial to top-level StarCraft II play, as is a nimble mind. Scarlett, however, disagrees. "I think the decline is overstated," she says. "People say after the age of 25 that you won't be able to compete in e-sports any more. I don't believe that's true. In most other sports you are able to compete till you are 35-40. E-sports is even less of a physical activity. You can play till 40 easily; I don't think this would affect how well you are able to play video games."
The decline with age is definitely overstated. People say the same about other sports, and you then you have guys like Anderson Silva fighting at age 40. But for some reason people in esports think your mind and reflexes go dull by age 25.
On February 07 2015 05:26 goswser wrote: The decline with age is definitely overstated. People say the same about other sports, and you then you have guys like Anderson Silva fighting at age 40. But for some reason people in esports think your mind and reflexes go dull by age 25.
I think this mainly comes from the old Korean Brood War mindset, where players had to eventually do their military service in their early-mid 20's, and that would pretty much be career ending. This doesn't even account for burnout rate which is very real due to the shear amount of time that BW pros played back in the day.
On February 07 2015 05:26 goswser wrote: The decline with age is definitely overstated. People say the same about other sports, and you then you have guys like Anderson Silva fighting at age 40. But for some reason people in esports think your mind and reflexes go dull by age 25.
I think this mainly comes from the old Korean Brood War mindset, where players had to eventually do their military service in their early-mid 20's, and that would pretty much be career ending. This doesn't even account for burnout rate which is very real due to the shear amount of time that BW pros played back in the day.
I think a lot of it has to also because these BW players are like playing BW nonstop in their teamhouse for years.
At the same time, when you enter your late 20s, thats when you think about settling down, nice job, starting a family, buying a house, so that's probably also a huge factor.
I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
On February 07 2015 06:01 virpi wrote: I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
The issue that is often cited is the decrease of the speed of small motor movements such as in the fingers that occurs after 26. It's disingenuous to cite other sports that are more reliant on one's full body to perform at a professional level.
I think it's funny how so many people QQ saying their race is awful and that's the reason they lose. Then go on to say it's too difficult to switch races and stay competitive. Yet, lots of people think they can change games and stay competitive.
gl, to Scarlett, but changing to an established game just doesn't seem viable.
On February 07 2015 06:58 UberNuB wrote: I think it's funny how so many people QQ saying their race is awful and that's the reason they lose. Then go on to say it's too difficult to switch races and stay competitive. Yet, lots of people think they can change games and stay competitive.
gl, to Scarlett, but changing to an established game just doesn't seem viable.
I think, more than anything, it's your passion for the game, that makes the transition viable. No one wants to race switch unless they actually like the game and like the race. She likes Dota 2 way more than SC2 right now, and she's been playing it quite frequently for a while now, so she's pretty good at it. If she has the drive, I'm pretty confident she could reach foreign pro-level in <6 months.
Speaking for myself, I don't like any game enough to ever try to play it truly competitively. It takes a lot of time, which I don't really have to learn a new competitive game. But if she plays Dota 2 for a large amount of her life, I think she could do just fine at it.
On February 07 2015 06:01 virpi wrote: I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
The issue that is often cited is the decrease of the speed of small motor movements such as in the fingers that occurs after 26. It's disingenuous to cite other sports that are more reliant on one's full body to perform at a professional level.
I don't see how it's disingenuous. I checked the dictionary just in case I was confused, and still don't understand how you're using it. In any case, most people cite musicians, not athletes.
1. I hope she comes back. 2. If foreigners continue to put education first they'll never be as good as Koreans. I'd really like to have at least some foreigners who treat SC2 as a serious job instead of a hobby they make money off. 3. She seems to have no clue about biology. SC2 is the one activity which engages the brain the most so it totally makes sense that the decline starts much earlier. Not to mention that after years of SC2 we have proof that your performance goes down if you get old.
On February 07 2015 05:26 goswser wrote: The decline with age is definitely overstated. People say the same about other sports, and you then you have guys like Anderson Silva fighting at age 40. But for some reason people in esports think your mind and reflexes go dull by age 25.
On February 07 2015 05:26 goswser wrote: The decline with age is definitely overstated. People say the same about other sports, and you then you have guys like Anderson Silva fighting at age 40. But for some reason people in esports think your mind and reflexes go dull by age 25.
I think this mainly comes from the old Korean Brood War mindset, where players had to eventually do their military service in their early-mid 20's, and that would pretty much be career ending. This doesn't even account for burnout rate which is very real due to the shear amount of time that BW pros played back in the day.
I guess it's another thing that, especially in the foreign world, pro are not doing enough for their health, while "real" athletes are always in good physical shape.
On February 07 2015 07:12 ilovegroov wrote: 1. I hope she comes back. 2. If foreigners continue to put education first they'll never be as good as Koreans. I'd really like to have at least some foreigners who treat SC2 as a serious job instead of a hobby they make money off. 3. She seems to have no clue about biology. SC2 is the one activity which engages the brain the most so it totally makes sense that the decline starts much earlier. Not to mention that after years of SC2 we have proof that your performance goes down if you get old.
@2. That's sort of bad advice. While I think it's cool to follow your passion, SC2 is not a very viable career. LoL and even CS:GO are much better. Ultimately, you're just an entertainer when you go down the path of SC2 pro. Prioritizing other careers seems like a very rational thing to do, and should never be looked down upon. Also, tons of foreign players play the game full-time as a "serious job", and most of them suck. Just sayin'...
@3. I don't have any scientific data on this, but I'm pretty sure the reason people get worse as they age is due to physical limitations more than anything else. Do I think someone could play SC2 competitively for over 10 years and not have some form of wrist/arm/back/whatever issues? Hell no. But I don't think they are any worse off than a football player or a baseball pitcher either. If the physical health problems can be averted, I think people would be fine at the age of 35-40. After all, SC2 is mostly a habitual game than anything else. It's barely a strategy game, and if done well, does not necessarily need to be APM-heavy. Though APM will always help.
On February 07 2015 06:58 UberNuB wrote: I think it's funny how so many people QQ saying their race is awful and that's the reason they lose. Then go on to say it's too difficult to switch races and stay competitive. Yet, lots of people think they can change games and stay competitive.
gl, to Scarlett, but changing to an established game just doesn't seem viable.
It definitely seems... optimistic. She seems okay from her stream, but hitting 6k by spamming Meepo and playing competitively are two entirely different beasts, and that's assuming she finds a team willing to take her. I can easily see this going very badly, like it did for Babyknight and Select.
On February 07 2015 06:01 virpi wrote: I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
The issue that is often cited is the decrease of the speed of small motor movements such as in the fingers that occurs after 26. It's disingenuous to cite other sports that are more reliant on one's full body to perform at a professional level.
I don't understand how this could be a thing when you see Satriani, Vai or Malmsteen are still as fucking fast as they were when they were younger.
On February 07 2015 06:01 virpi wrote: I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
The issue that is often cited is the decrease of the speed of small motor movements such as in the fingers that occurs after 26. It's disingenuous to cite other sports that are more reliant on one's full body to perform at a professional level.
I don't understand how this could be a thing when you see Satriani, Vai or Malmsteen are still as fucking fast as they were when they were younger.
I know nothing about the biology of this, but does someone have some reputable scientific backup for the idea that there is a significant decline in "speed of small motor movements" after your mid-20s? I hear this mentioned all the time like it's a fact but never any backup given. I remember Tastosis talking about this idea at some point and not that they're experts on this but they were saying that it's a myth.
Not to mention the whole "finger speed" concept makes it sound like APM is a key deciding factor in who the top SC2 players are and that just has never been true.
On February 07 2015 06:58 UberNuB wrote: I think it's funny how so many people QQ saying their race is awful and that's the reason they lose. Then go on to say it's too difficult to switch races and stay competitive. Yet, lots of people think they can change games and stay competitive.
gl, to Scarlett, but changing to an established game just doesn't seem viable.
I think, more than anything, it's your passion for the game, that makes the transition viable. No one wants to race switch unless they actually like the game and like the race. She likes Dota 2 way more than SC2 right now, and she's been playing it quite frequently for a while now, so she's pretty good at it. If she has the drive, I'm pretty confident she could reach foreign pro-level in <6 months.
Speaking for myself, I don't like any game enough to ever try to play it truly competitively. It takes a lot of time, which I don't really have to learn a new competitive game. But if she plays Dota 2 for a large amount of her life, I think she could do just fine at it.
Although I don't disagree with your sentiments.
1. To reach pro level in 6 months she has to already be quite competent. It's a team game, you need a lot more than just grinding pubs to be able to play well with teams and more importantly, find a good team. There are droves of pub players who are better than most pro players in pubs, it's not entirely the same skill set.
2. 'Foreign pro-level' in Dota is a meaningless statement. There are no 'foreigners' in Dota. In regards to mechanical ability, the best players are quite evenly spread out. Even if one would draw an analogy of the Chinese being the Korean's of Dota (which is wrong on many levels), the Chinese really aren't known for individual skill.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
She apparently was a really good Dota 1 player, but I dont' know if that counts as history in competitive play.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
She apparently was a really good Dota 1 player, but I dont' know if that counts as history in competitive play.
Select was also supposedly a really good dota 1 player, and we all know how his venture into dota2 went, lol. Would be neat if she accomplishes more than select if she really makes the switch though.
On February 07 2015 06:01 virpi wrote: I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
The issue that is often cited is the decrease of the speed of small motor movements such as in the fingers that occurs after 26. It's disingenuous to cite other sports that are more reliant on one's full body to perform at a professional level.
I don't see how it's disingenuous. I checked the dictionary just in case I was confused, and still don't understand how you're using it. In any case, most people cite musicians, not athletes.
Cite popular musicians? because this certainly does not apply to classical musicians.
On February 07 2015 05:26 goswser wrote: The decline with age is definitely overstated. People say the same about other sports, and you then you have guys like Anderson Silva fighting at age 40. But for some reason people in esports think your mind and reflexes go dull by age 25.
steroids help a bit I think
Sorry to burst your bubble but you should do some research on how professional sports work.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
She apparently was a really good Dota 1 player, but I dont' know if that counts as history in competitive play.
Select was also supposedly a really good dota 1 player, and we all know how his venture into dota2 went, lol. Would be neat if she accomplishes more than select if she really makes the switch though.
Babyknight also was, and he was the worst player on his T3 team by a long shot. The only SC2 players I can think of that made the switch and weren't awful are Aui and EE, though they certainly weren't as notable as Scarlett is or Select was.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
She apparently was a really good Dota 1 player, but I dont' know if that counts as history in competitive play.
Select was also supposedly a really good dota 1 player, and we all know how his venture into dota2 went, lol. Would be neat if she accomplishes more than select if she really makes the switch though.
Babyknight also was, and he was the worst player on his T3 team by a long shot. The only SC2 players I can think of that made the switch and weren't awful are Aui and EE, though they certainly weren't as notable as Scarlett is or Select was.
So was IceIceIce, but they all had a strong amount of competitive history and they were Dota/HoN players first, SC2 players second.
On February 07 2015 06:01 virpi wrote: I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
The issue that is often cited is the decrease of the speed of small motor movements such as in the fingers that occurs after 26. It's disingenuous to cite other sports that are more reliant on one's full body to perform at a professional level.
I don't understand how this could be a thing when you see Satriani, Vai or Malmsteen are still as fucking fast as they were when they were younger.
I know nothing about the biology of this, but does someone have some reputable scientific backup for the idea that there is a significant decline in "speed of small motor movements" after your mid-20s? I hear this mentioned all the time like it's a fact but never any backup given. I remember Tastosis talking about this idea at some point and not that they're experts on this but they were saying that it's a myth.
Not to mention the whole "finger speed" concept makes it sound like APM is a key deciding factor in who the top SC2 players are and that just has never been true.
though I have to say, even if the decline is statistically significant, doesn't mean you can't be a success player after age 24, since starcraft also involves a lot of builds and clever maneuvering, but I'd say a lot aspects of TvZ - responding to drops, dodging mines, splitting against banes, muta control, etc. - would matter in terms of the so-called cognitive-motor response.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
That doesn't work like that.
Want a good exmaple in sports ?
Look up what Kimi Raikkonen did in Rally when taking a break from Formula 1.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
Yeah they definetly dont, different games are much easier than others, some have higher skill ceilings. Some games are only about micro, some games require better reflexes, some require more analytical thinking. And skill and passion aren't enough, you need a lot of luck plus skill plus determination
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
Yeah they definetly dont, different games are much easier than others, some have higher skill ceilings. Some games are only about micro, some games require better reflexes, some require more analytical thinking. And skill and passion aren't enough, you need a lot of luck plus skill plus determination
The only significant difference in types of "skills" you need to know between Dota 2 and SC2 is game knowledge and teamwork. Other than that, her other skills from SC2 should transfer over just fine. Map awareness? Shit, I bet Scarlett has better map awareness than most Dota 2 pros. Multitasking? Should not be a problem...
Meh, being a pro in one eSport means you're probably good enough to top the ladder in another...but it's a loooooong jump from top casual to halfway decent professional. I wish her the best of luck, but I don't think it's possible to take these sorts of translations lightly/easily.
Just look at the transition from WCIII to SCII, two games of the same genre; the very top WCIII players were only decent in SCII, and even then only when the game was still pretty new. Going from an RTS to a MOBA is an even bigger jump.
I'm really skeptical if she decides to go far, as most of these pro players that switch games tend to not work out.
But let's be real, if it's NA Dota, she has a good chance.
The hardest part of being a really good Dota player, is finding the ideal team. You have to hope the right people are looking for a team at the same time and have the chemistry they need. I'm sure there are TONS of really good players that go years without a title because they just didn't have the team to do it.
The way I see it she's not getting better at StarCraft and she's not going to make any big leaps due to her wrist issues. So she puts sc2 on the backburner and practices a less apm intensive game for a while. She can still come back anytime she wants and be at her old level after a month or so of practice. This way she lets her fans know not to expect her to be killing it at tournies. There's a long list of sc2 pros who failed the transition. I'd say it's damn near impossible.
That study on aging doesn't prove anything really. It's 1 study done on a complicated subject with endless variables. I can say for myself my apm/wpm is the highest it's ever been at 27, 170 and 100 respectively.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
That doesn't work like that.
Want a good exmaple in sports ?
Look up what Kimi Raikkonen did in Rally when taking a break from Formula 1.
Well you could take Sebastien Loeb as a counter-example : look at his Rally results and look at what he did when racing in the Le Mans 24 Hours (or in the Pikes Peak or in whatever he competed in really). There are no rules about that ; it's all dependant on the individual's aptitude to adapt and to quickly break his/her old ways and habits of thinking and conceptualizing things to create new ones adapted to his/her new activity. As for the age debate I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. When aging you lose some mechanical precision and brain speed while your reaction time increase ; but these can be easily compensated by intelligent training (ok, intelligent training is probably non-existent for the current progamers) and experience. I mean look at classical musicians, or ultra-fast guitarists/bassists, etc.
The one thing that dota2 and sc2 differs is that. Being a top player of the rankings actually means shit when it comes to the pro-scene. You will even see pros that are really mechanically weaker but are considered one of the best in the world just because they can analyse well and have a great understanding of the game(ppd, xiao8(at one point) and puppey).
Map awareness is even a different thing. Sure you can notice that nobody is in the map but predicting what they are doing and where they are is a thing which is really huge since majority of the game you won't see a player outside the fog of war often outside from clearing waves.
Dota2 and sc2 are extremely different games. Believe it or not understanding and analysis is extremely important in dota. While in starcraft you're opponent can beat you just with plain mechanicsas long as they memories a build order and macro better.
You can be really good at dota but can do shit when it comes to starcraft and you can also do really well at starcraft but you will look clueless at dota. Cause the skills that you learn from both games don't translate towards each other when you transition.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
Yeah. Especially since i heard she started 5k but that's misleading when she's playing nothing but meepo.
On February 07 2015 14:21 ROOTFayth wrote: I never implied it would be an easy road, I'm just saying she probably have what it takes to succeed
It's not impossible but she doesn't have what it takes. Like normally you need to be at least 5k when you started playing the game to actually have the potential.
But that's just potential. And being good actually means not only knowing one hero but multiple heroes you are good at. And that doesn't mean you are already good on the t2 or t3 teams even.
And be a really good tinker and a player at same time just to even play at t2 and t3 team level. Even the business of being the best there are like 5 teams who are at the top. Everybody outside that are just fodders.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
She apparently was a really good Dota 1 player, but I dont' know if that counts as history in competitive play.
babyknight was too but he isn't even an amazing for T2 EU team standards. There are a lot of legendary chinese pros who from dota 1 which didn't fair out really well.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
No, skill and passion are not enough and getting to the top at Dota 2 solo IS harder then it is in Starcraft because guess what?Its a team game. Skills also don't translate that well between the two games, just because they are both played in an isometric perspective doesn't mean skills like map awareness directly transfer, see every other SC2 pro who tried their hand at Dota 2 again.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
No, skill and passion are not enough and getting to the top at Dota 2 solo IS harder then it is in Starcraft because guess what?Its a team game. Skills also don't translate that well between the two games, just because they are both played in an isometric perspective doesn't mean skills like map awareness directly transfer, see every other SC2 pro who tried their hand at Dota 2 again.
Mechanics don't win you a game in Dota 2.
Well I guess being good at MOBAs in solo will allow you to join a team and afterwards by being good, you can be spotted by better teams... etc..., and that's how you reach the top; afterwards, it's very different from SC2.
I wouldn't say that being good at Dota 2 is harder, it's different.
The problem is mostly the fact that required skills are very different.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
No, skill and passion are not enough and getting to the top at Dota 2 solo IS harder then it is in Starcraft because guess what?Its a team game. Skills also don't translate that well between the two games, just because they are both played in an isometric perspective doesn't mean skills like map awareness directly transfer, see every other SC2 pro who tried their hand at Dota 2 again.
Mechanics don't win you a game in Dota 2.
Well I guess being good at MOBAs in solo will allow you to join a team and afterwards by being good, you can be spotted by better teams... etc..., and that's how you reach the top; afterwards, it's very different from SC2.
I wouldn't say that being good at Dota 2 is harder, it's different.
The problem is mostly the fact that required skills are very different.
Did you know that having extremely high mmr(means to be a top ranker) means shit to dota 2 ?
You can have 7k MMR. Basically top 35 players out of 10 MILLION PLAYERS around the world right now. And you still can't qualify for a T1 team or sometimes get kicked immediately after a short while in a good team. The best you can go is that you get into a t2 team formed out of online players and you can still barely take a game out of the top pros.
And in sc2 you are a top 10 in korea you are probably one of the most promising or the best pros atm.
Team morale, mentality of individual players on the team , the mentality of the entire team, the synchronization of the team, how big the heropool of a player is, how many heroes a player can play at the best level, how good a player is in the role, the language that the team speaks, you have to deal with negativity of other players of the team, you have to consider the players who play aggressive and those who don't and many more.
While in sc2 you have players like Taeja who can practice alone and still be the best of the best. You think it's the same ? IT'S NOT .
I'm not even mentioning how hard it is to look a roster when you consider the playstyle of the team, hero pool , level of play of each player and especially role and playstyleo of the player. Also roster changes are not cool at all.
Best luck to her. SC/SC2 and Dota require different type of skill. SC require good-insane mechanical skill to be at the top. What separate people at the top of Dota is mostly teamwork. Both game require strategy but different kinds.
In StarCraft at top level, to even think about strategies, you must reach certain level of mechanical skill. Mvp when he won his championship in his decline was like that. He was at the mechanic level required but just barely and he won the championships with strategies.
On February 07 2015 21:37 ReMinD_ wrote: Did any pro SC2 player successfully switch to Dota 2 ?
Nop. Almost all who has switched to either LoL or Dota has failed, including Korean players.
It makes a lot more sense to switch to Heroes of the Storm as a lot of foreigners has done at this point because they aren't miles behind the pros in that game.
I'm pretty highrated in Dota, like 5.7k and I really don't think Scarlett will make a successful switch. It does take too long time to get to 6.5k even if she is considerably more talented at games than I am. There are very few who are good enough to be 6.5k and most of them has played Dota for years and years.
On February 07 2015 21:37 ReMinD_ wrote: Did any pro SC2 player successfully switch to Dota 2 ?
No, but only 2 have even tried... Select (who came back to SC2 after a while and very quickly stopped playing it too) and Babyknight (who was a Dota player originally any ways).
Also, I have no interest in Scarlett's DotA career but I have to say I admire her willingness to constantly try to provoke the Starcraft community with DotA-related comments.
So, two points about the longevity issue in Starcraft: - Korean players are taxed beyond belief: they have to focus on a computer screen for 14h a day for many years. It wouldn't surprise me if this burns them out at some point. - Brood War kept developing for a very long time, so older players were at a natural disadvantage for finding themselves with a non-optimal skill set over time. (think of APM requirements increasing) Creating the illusion that older players couldn't keep up.
I don't think this is true for foreigner SC2 pros. Scarlett (let's be honest) barely practices compared to Koreans and she probably can be successful at a foreigner level with her current styles well into, say, her late 20's. Much like how older players didn't really do worse in Warcraft 3, because the level of competition was lower and you could be much more successful just with your personal style and there wasn't the harsh demand to follow the trends.
"I think the decline is overstated," she says. "People say after the age of 25 that you won't be able to compete in e-sports any more. I don't believe that's true. In most other sports you are able to compete till you are 35-40. E-sports is even less of a physical activity. You can play till 40 easily; I don't think this would affect how well you are able to play video games."
Well said Scarlett!. There are players who play for example in the English premiership who are 40 e.g. Teddy Sheringham, there's professional boxers/SAS Soldiers at 36 etc which is a shit load harder than video games. As Scarlett fairly points out that e-sports is not as much a physical activity.
The reason these players can still do these O_O things at 40 or for example Andrea Pirlo can compete for an Italian squad spot at the world cup at 36 is because his mind is like 10 steps ahead of you to compensate for the lack of physical speed/fitness, same can be applicable to video gaming imo considering most of it is mental. So agreed you could do e-sports well into your late 30s but if your motivated enough is the question.
On February 07 2015 06:01 virpi wrote: I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
The issue that is often cited is the decrease of the speed of small motor movements such as in the fingers that occurs after 26. It's disingenuous to cite other sports that are more reliant on one's full body to perform at a professional level.
I don't understand how this could be a thing when you see Satriani, Vai or Malmsteen are still as fucking fast as they were when they were younger.
I know nothing about the biology of this, but does someone have some reputable scientific backup for the idea that there is a significant decline in "speed of small motor movements" after your mid-20s? I hear this mentioned all the time like it's a fact but never any backup given. I remember Tastosis talking about this idea at some point and not that they're experts on this but they were saying that it's a myth.
Not to mention the whole "finger speed" concept makes it sound like APM is a key deciding factor in who the top SC2 players are and that just has never been true.
though I have to say, even if the decline is statistically significant, doesn't mean you can't be a success player after age 24, since starcraft also involves a lot of builds and clever maneuvering, but I'd say a lot aspects of TvZ - responding to drops, dodging mines, splitting against banes, muta control, etc. - would matter in terms of the so-called cognitive-motor response.
I like how that paper doesn't know how to write their matlab scripts for their graphs :D
they do ln(miilliseconds) not log(milliseconds)
None of those things in your post have to do with the study. It strictly has to do with looking-doing latency.
I.e. screen changes > certain length (e.g. clicking on minimap) and time to first action on that screen.
They are not properly parsing their SC2Gears text files for actions after a field-of-view change larger than their specified units. I have never used SC2Gears but it appears to log everything correctly (right-click actions and displays field-of-view).
The formula of ln(looking-doing latency time) is 6.03 + .01*YearsOver24 for masters players. For bronze, it is 6.87+.01*YearsOver24 (such that a 39 year old is supposedly e^(6.87+15) - e^(6.87) =155 ms larger in latency for the looking-doing latency response compared to a 24 or less year old player, which the paper identifies as 150 ms/look-do cycle and an in game of 200 look-do cycles in 15 min game would be 31 seconds lost by age).
I do not think masters players have looking-doing lag times of e^6.03 = 415.7 ms.
It is mathematically very unlikely for anyone >144.58 APM (1 action per 415 ms) to have a lag time that long in a screen shift. But of course, I will not say it is impossible ^.^
I want to wish Scarlett good luck in Dota2, I really do!
Alas, I can't though, because it feels like a betrayal. Also, I want her back in SC2, and the only way that could happen is if she doesn't do well in Dota2.
Am I a bad person for feeling this way?
Sorry Scarlett, I don't want to be mean to you, I just don't want to miss you.
On February 08 2015 12:25 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I want to wish Scarlett good luck in Dota2, I really do!
Alas, I can't though, because it feels like a betrayal. Also, I want her back in SC2, and the only way that could happen is if she doesn't do well in Dota2.
Am I a bad person for feeling this way?
Sorry Scarlett, I don't want to be mean to you, I just don't want to miss you.
Will you even want her back after she goes deep in dota 2?
Pfft, the crap Kotaku writes... lol I guess the biggest hit was saying that Dota was originally a SC:BW custom map >_< Oh well though, wish her success, and , kind of contradictingly, her return to SC2 for LotV.
On February 08 2015 12:37 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i wonder if Dota2 requires lower APM ? if so maybe it is a better game for players nursing RSI's.
Dota doesn't need even require low apm. Communication and decision making is extremely important when it comes to dota though.
Especially communication and mentality. It's a game where toxicity is insanely high that you think that all the cancer trashtalk from sc2 look like kids trashtalking each other.
EPT
