On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
That doesn't work like that.
Want a good exmaple in sports ?
Look up what Kimi Raikkonen did in Rally when taking a break from Formula 1.
Well you could take Sebastien Loeb as a counter-example : look at his Rally results and look at what he did when racing in the Le Mans 24 Hours (or in the Pikes Peak or in whatever he competed in really). There are no rules about that ; it's all dependant on the individual's aptitude to adapt and to quickly break his/her old ways and habits of thinking and conceptualizing things to create new ones adapted to his/her new activity. As for the age debate I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. When aging you lose some mechanical precision and brain speed while your reaction time increase ; but these can be easily compensated by intelligent training (ok, intelligent training is probably non-existent for the current progamers) and experience. I mean look at classical musicians, or ultra-fast guitarists/bassists, etc.
The one thing that dota2 and sc2 differs is that. Being a top player of the rankings actually means shit when it comes to the pro-scene. You will even see pros that are really mechanically weaker but are considered one of the best in the world just because they can analyse well and have a great understanding of the game(ppd, xiao8(at one point) and puppey).
Map awareness is even a different thing. Sure you can notice that nobody is in the map but predicting what they are doing and where they are is a thing which is really huge since majority of the game you won't see a player outside the fog of war often outside from clearing waves.
Dota2 and sc2 are extremely different games. Believe it or not understanding and analysis is extremely important in dota. While in starcraft you're opponent can beat you just with plain mechanicsas long as they memories a build order and macro better.
You can be really good at dota but can do shit when it comes to starcraft and you can also do really well at starcraft but you will look clueless at dota. Cause the skills that you learn from both games don't translate towards each other when you transition.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
Yeah. Especially since i heard she started 5k but that's misleading when she's playing nothing but meepo.
On February 07 2015 14:21 ROOTFayth wrote: I never implied it would be an easy road, I'm just saying she probably have what it takes to succeed
It's not impossible but she doesn't have what it takes. Like normally you need to be at least 5k when you started playing the game to actually have the potential.
But that's just potential. And being good actually means not only knowing one hero but multiple heroes you are good at. And that doesn't mean you are already good on the t2 or t3 teams even.
And be a really good tinker and a player at same time just to even play at t2 and t3 team level. Even the business of being the best there are like 5 teams who are at the top. Everybody outside that are just fodders.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
She apparently was a really good Dota 1 player, but I dont' know if that counts as history in competitive play.
babyknight was too but he isn't even an amazing for T2 EU team standards. There are a lot of legendary chinese pros who from dota 1 which didn't fair out really well.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
No, skill and passion are not enough and getting to the top at Dota 2 solo IS harder then it is in Starcraft because guess what?Its a team game. Skills also don't translate that well between the two games, just because they are both played in an isometric perspective doesn't mean skills like map awareness directly transfer, see every other SC2 pro who tried their hand at Dota 2 again.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
No, skill and passion are not enough and getting to the top at Dota 2 solo IS harder then it is in Starcraft because guess what?Its a team game. Skills also don't translate that well between the two games, just because they are both played in an isometric perspective doesn't mean skills like map awareness directly transfer, see every other SC2 pro who tried their hand at Dota 2 again.
Mechanics don't win you a game in Dota 2.
Well I guess being good at MOBAs in solo will allow you to join a team and afterwards by being good, you can be spotted by better teams... etc..., and that's how you reach the top; afterwards, it's very different from SC2.
I wouldn't say that being good at Dota 2 is harder, it's different.
The problem is mostly the fact that required skills are very different.
On February 07 2015 08:33 Kipsate wrote: I don't see her doing anything significantly in Dota 2, but if she wants to try and shes more happy about it sure.
actually she'd prob be a top player at any game she actually puts effort in, like most people who were top players at some point
Several other Starcraft players tried and haven't gotten it, she has no history in competitive Dota or teamgames to my knowledge for that matter(and those others did). I see no reason why she succeeds while others fail.
You need more then skill and passion to play in a good dota 2 team.
no, you just need skill and passion, passion is allowing you to play a lot, and by playing a lot you get to the top, it's funny you talk as if it was harder to get to the top at Dota 2 than it is starcraft... I mean what the hell, anything competitive requires dedication, esport all requires approximately the same set of skills
No, skill and passion are not enough and getting to the top at Dota 2 solo IS harder then it is in Starcraft because guess what?Its a team game. Skills also don't translate that well between the two games, just because they are both played in an isometric perspective doesn't mean skills like map awareness directly transfer, see every other SC2 pro who tried their hand at Dota 2 again.
Mechanics don't win you a game in Dota 2.
Well I guess being good at MOBAs in solo will allow you to join a team and afterwards by being good, you can be spotted by better teams... etc..., and that's how you reach the top; afterwards, it's very different from SC2.
I wouldn't say that being good at Dota 2 is harder, it's different.
The problem is mostly the fact that required skills are very different.
Did you know that having extremely high mmr(means to be a top ranker) means shit to dota 2 ?
You can have 7k MMR. Basically top 35 players out of 10 MILLION PLAYERS around the world right now. And you still can't qualify for a T1 team or sometimes get kicked immediately after a short while in a good team. The best you can go is that you get into a t2 team formed out of online players and you can still barely take a game out of the top pros.
And in sc2 you are a top 10 in korea you are probably one of the most promising or the best pros atm.
Team morale, mentality of individual players on the team , the mentality of the entire team, the synchronization of the team, how big the heropool of a player is, how many heroes a player can play at the best level, how good a player is in the role, the language that the team speaks, you have to deal with negativity of other players of the team, you have to consider the players who play aggressive and those who don't and many more.
While in sc2 you have players like Taeja who can practice alone and still be the best of the best. You think it's the same ? IT'S NOT .
I'm not even mentioning how hard it is to look a roster when you consider the playstyle of the team, hero pool , level of play of each player and especially role and playstyleo of the player. Also roster changes are not cool at all.
Best luck to her. SC/SC2 and Dota require different type of skill. SC require good-insane mechanical skill to be at the top. What separate people at the top of Dota is mostly teamwork. Both game require strategy but different kinds.
In StarCraft at top level, to even think about strategies, you must reach certain level of mechanical skill. Mvp when he won his championship in his decline was like that. He was at the mechanic level required but just barely and he won the championships with strategies.
On February 07 2015 21:37 ReMinD_ wrote: Did any pro SC2 player successfully switch to Dota 2 ?
Nop. Almost all who has switched to either LoL or Dota has failed, including Korean players.
It makes a lot more sense to switch to Heroes of the Storm as a lot of foreigners has done at this point because they aren't miles behind the pros in that game.
I'm pretty highrated in Dota, like 5.7k and I really don't think Scarlett will make a successful switch. It does take too long time to get to 6.5k even if she is considerably more talented at games than I am. There are very few who are good enough to be 6.5k and most of them has played Dota for years and years.
On February 07 2015 21:37 ReMinD_ wrote: Did any pro SC2 player successfully switch to Dota 2 ?
No, but only 2 have even tried... Select (who came back to SC2 after a while and very quickly stopped playing it too) and Babyknight (who was a Dota player originally any ways).
Also, I have no interest in Scarlett's DotA career but I have to say I admire her willingness to constantly try to provoke the Starcraft community with DotA-related comments.
So, two points about the longevity issue in Starcraft: - Korean players are taxed beyond belief: they have to focus on a computer screen for 14h a day for many years. It wouldn't surprise me if this burns them out at some point. - Brood War kept developing for a very long time, so older players were at a natural disadvantage for finding themselves with a non-optimal skill set over time. (think of APM requirements increasing) Creating the illusion that older players couldn't keep up.
I don't think this is true for foreigner SC2 pros. Scarlett (let's be honest) barely practices compared to Koreans and she probably can be successful at a foreigner level with her current styles well into, say, her late 20's. Much like how older players didn't really do worse in Warcraft 3, because the level of competition was lower and you could be much more successful just with your personal style and there wasn't the harsh demand to follow the trends.
"I think the decline is overstated," she says. "People say after the age of 25 that you won't be able to compete in e-sports any more. I don't believe that's true. In most other sports you are able to compete till you are 35-40. E-sports is even less of a physical activity. You can play till 40 easily; I don't think this would affect how well you are able to play video games."
Well said Scarlett!. There are players who play for example in the English premiership who are 40 e.g. Teddy Sheringham, there's professional boxers/SAS Soldiers at 36 etc which is a shit load harder than video games. As Scarlett fairly points out that e-sports is not as much a physical activity.
The reason these players can still do these O_O things at 40 or for example Andrea Pirlo can compete for an Italian squad spot at the world cup at 36 is because his mind is like 10 steps ahead of you to compensate for the lack of physical speed/fitness, same can be applicable to video gaming imo considering most of it is mental. So agreed you could do e-sports well into your late 30s but if your motivated enough is the question.
On February 07 2015 06:01 virpi wrote: I have to agree on the age thing. I think that the whole "you can't play well after 25" stuff has to do with the fact that most korean players are basically burned out when they're 22 or 23. (especially kespa players) And then there's always the dreaded military service, which looms over every korean e-sport pro. With deliberate practice and a healthy lifestyle it should easily be possible to compete at the highest level until 30 or even 35. Of course, it's getting harder over time (less motivation, other obligations, etc.), but it's possible. Bomber basically peaked last year and he was 26 back then. Or just think of Nestea. (of course, SC2 was young back then, but his accomplishments still stand for themselves.)
The issue that is often cited is the decrease of the speed of small motor movements such as in the fingers that occurs after 26. It's disingenuous to cite other sports that are more reliant on one's full body to perform at a professional level.
I don't understand how this could be a thing when you see Satriani, Vai or Malmsteen are still as fucking fast as they were when they were younger.
I know nothing about the biology of this, but does someone have some reputable scientific backup for the idea that there is a significant decline in "speed of small motor movements" after your mid-20s? I hear this mentioned all the time like it's a fact but never any backup given. I remember Tastosis talking about this idea at some point and not that they're experts on this but they were saying that it's a myth.
Not to mention the whole "finger speed" concept makes it sound like APM is a key deciding factor in who the top SC2 players are and that just has never been true.
though I have to say, even if the decline is statistically significant, doesn't mean you can't be a success player after age 24, since starcraft also involves a lot of builds and clever maneuvering, but I'd say a lot aspects of TvZ - responding to drops, dodging mines, splitting against banes, muta control, etc. - would matter in terms of the so-called cognitive-motor response.
I like how that paper doesn't know how to write their matlab scripts for their graphs :D
they do ln(miilliseconds) not log(milliseconds)
None of those things in your post have to do with the study. It strictly has to do with looking-doing latency.
I.e. screen changes > certain length (e.g. clicking on minimap) and time to first action on that screen.
They are not properly parsing their SC2Gears text files for actions after a field-of-view change larger than their specified units. I have never used SC2Gears but it appears to log everything correctly (right-click actions and displays field-of-view).
The formula of ln(looking-doing latency time) is 6.03 + .01*YearsOver24 for masters players. For bronze, it is 6.87+.01*YearsOver24 (such that a 39 year old is supposedly e^(6.87+15) - e^(6.87) =155 ms larger in latency for the looking-doing latency response compared to a 24 or less year old player, which the paper identifies as 150 ms/look-do cycle and an in game of 200 look-do cycles in 15 min game would be 31 seconds lost by age).
I do not think masters players have looking-doing lag times of e^6.03 = 415.7 ms.
It is mathematically very unlikely for anyone >144.58 APM (1 action per 415 ms) to have a lag time that long in a screen shift. But of course, I will not say it is impossible ^.^
I want to wish Scarlett good luck in Dota2, I really do!
Alas, I can't though, because it feels like a betrayal. Also, I want her back in SC2, and the only way that could happen is if she doesn't do well in Dota2.
Am I a bad person for feeling this way?
Sorry Scarlett, I don't want to be mean to you, I just don't want to miss you.
EPT
