EPTOn January 31 2015 07:00 pure.Wasted wrote:
Thanks a lot TL guys, you're doing God's work.
Thanks a lot TL guys, you're doing God's work.
God's work? More like Blizzards work. Free playtesting FTW!
Pro Opinions: Changes to the Swarmhost and Raven - Page 4
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
God's work? More like Blizzards work. Free playtesting FTW! | ||
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KaZeFenrir
United States37 Posts
Is it me or is it really funny that blizzard is just literally adding in units that they removed from BW with new skins?! | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On February 01 2015 17:38 KaZeFenrir wrote: Dunno, im Terran biased but I do think the SH changes are good. Im tired of reading about how because mech wasnt viable to begin with it shouldnt be taken into account though. Supposedly its something blizzard WANTS to be viable, and everyone keeps saying more options are better.. So yeah, it should kind of be a thing that matters. Fact remains both changes add additional nails to the "mech is viable" option. Is it me or is it really funny that blizzard is just literally adding in units that they removed from BW with new skins?! More option are good, but the design of mech play is bad in TvZ. In fact it's just the same than Mass SH, you just mass units than hardcounter Zerg units. Zerglings are useless vs Mech, cause hellbat crush it. With the right among of Tank, Mech crush any zerg ground army, Thor hard counter mutas, Vikings with the combined upgrades are very cost effective vs broodlord and vipers. Raven have no counter. But no Terran says : Mech is bad design, Zerg can't use the units they want. The truth is mech style vs Z is just a deathball style, it's only fun for the player who play it. Personnaly i prefer to see game where both have egal chance, and possibilities, not one having all hard counter, and the other just some soft counter. But when T can play both play Bio and Mech, and Zerg need to adapt, it's Ok. The fun fact, is when T decide to turtle while he can play bio, and don't have, put his buildings in a corner, ofc it's the Zerg fault, if the game is so long. Yeah the Zerg has never wanted to play against mech, but just adapt to it using SH, but according to mecher he has only the right just to lose the game against this. The nerf must be Protoss deathball and mech camping style. I don't care playing SH, if you delete the unit, i'm ok, but only if i have the same chance of winning the game vs P and T, and the best win, not the one using abusing style, and low skill caps, like Protoss deathball and mech in TvZ. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
But it is ironic that Zerg is the race where players are showing almost no attempt of innovative play and rather die 2 hours and hope the opponent does a mistake. It works for 2 expansions now, so I see that there is no need to change that. But I find it really sad, because I would love seeing them do that. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Is it just me or does this sound really dumb and like an argument against himself? Isn't the idea is that they previously lasted so long that they'd always need to be destroyed first, and that's a bad thing? Wouldn't his first statement suggest a nerf is ideal? | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On February 01 2015 19:25 FeyFey wrote: I always found it strange that Zerg is the race that can beat every deathball head on with HotS, while they are the race with the best ways to get around deathballs and with the speed to be back at home in time to defend. That they don't need to use those mechanics shows me that either their deathball is to strong or the one of the other races to weak. But it is ironic that Zerg is the race where players are showing almost no attempt of innovative play and rather die 2 hours and hope the opponent does a mistake. It works for 2 expansions now, so I see that there is no need to change that. But I find it really sad, because I would love seeing them do that. No attempt at innovative play? Lol. | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
On February 01 2015 19:25 FeyFey wrote: I always found it strange that Zerg is the race that can beat every deathball head on with HotS, while they are the race with the best ways to get around deathballs and with the speed to be back at home in time to defend. That they don't need to use those mechanics shows me that either their deathball is to strong or the one of the other races to weak. But it is ironic that Zerg is the race where players are showing almost no attempt of innovative play and rather die 2 hours and hope the opponent does a mistake. It works for 2 expansions now, so I see that there is no need to change that. But I find it really sad, because I would love seeing them do that. This is sc2 design. Extremely limited micro potential with many hardcounter units and some one-hit units (wm hits lings) and many strong spells (FF etc), everyone is looking for opponent's mistakes than showing own strengths. Only Stephano in his first year had this "magic fights" because he fighted own strengths and ignored everything else. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
These comments about Zerg superior at working around deathballs are always so ridiculous. And they always come from the guys that start whining the moment they have to defend more than one choke for 4 bases. Let's play on Daedalus 1.0. Let's put double and triple wide ramps to main bases. Let's make 270degree open natural bases. Let's design maps with open field middles like Alterzim. Then we can talk about superior mobility. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uuDce94.jpg) | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On February 01 2015 19:25 FeyFey wrote: I always found it strange that Zerg is the race that can beat every deathball head on with HotS, [...]. So despite all your flame-baiting (yes, go ahead and reply to that with "lol", that'll do it), I find this opening sentence raising an interesting concept. "The reace that can beat every deathball", as if it is not necessary that every late-game composition should have a (soft at least) counter by any race. Would it be ok with some late-game compositions (death balls) to not be beaten by anything from another race? The other race would then have to be able to win the game in some other fashion, such as base-trade vs a very slow composition, inefficiently chipping away on the comp and remax from superior economy, or maybe win before the opponent reaches that composition, because the strongest units are crappy before critical mass or something. I don't know. I guess most would say that no, that is not ok, and I may be one of them, but I just wanted to open the debate quickly, and think about whether there would be some possibility in allowing invincible death-balls in some matchups. It could potentially give more interesting games if passive play just cannot be answered by equally passive play. Note that this doesn't have to mean that one race is an easier "a-move" race, as a deathball still can be hard to manage if it requires skilled use of spells, and that it can be easy to counter-attack if you have a powerful and fast unit. Not saying that this is the case in how hots is played by pros right now, but maybe there is an at least theoretical possibility to have an un-counterable deathball in an enjoyable game, both watching and playing. Not sure if that made any sense... Thoughts?  | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On February 01 2015 19:41 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: Axiom_Ryung: PDD's usually got destroyed before their timers ran out, so I don't think a nerf is neccesary. Is it just me or does this sound really dumb and like an argument against himself? Isn't the idea is that they previously lasted so long that they'd always need to be destroyed first, and that's a bad thing? Wouldn't his first statement suggest a nerf is ideal? Yes, pretty large logical flaw in that argument. I see where he is coming from, and how that can be the first 1-second reaction, so not saying he is stupid or anything, but he probably didn't put a lot of effort into that reply... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 01 2015 20:32 Cascade wrote: Would it be ok with some late-game compositions (death balls) to not be beaten by anything from another race? The other race would then have to be able to win the game in some other fashion, such as base-trade vs a very slow composition, inefficiently chipping away on the comp and remax from superior economy, or maybe win before the opponent reaches that composition, because the strongest units are crappy before critical mass or something. Welcome to TvP | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7979 Posts
wonder if anyone had more success but with the current stats I find it hard to believe that sh are viable on pro level | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On January 30 2015 16:26 OtherWorld wrote: A "Pro Opinions" piece on the new Swarm Hosts and no Snute in the article, wtf Liquid O_o It's a nice idea, but I'm unsure whether the community support would be important enough, both in terms of viewer and prizepool. We could do the same with maps too, would avoid some disasters in the map pool. I think you could get pretty big hype out of that. Balance changes always attract a lot of attention. | ||
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KMART561
United States24 Posts
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