It’s been a while since a proposed balance change, and while this list includes only two new changes, they are massive. As always, TL Strategy has reached out to pro gamers and asked their opinions on the new changes. This round of changes include the redesigned swarm host idea from LotV, and a revamped PDD timing which are as follows:
All Swarm Host changes from Void carried over to HotS.
Spawn Locust can now be used while unburrowed, but must be manually activated.
Locusts have been buffed and can be upgraded at Tier 3 to fly over terrain. They must then swoop down to the ground to engage.
Cooldown 60 seconds Can be cast while burrowed or unburrowed. Must be manually cast. No longer has auto-cast. Spawns 2 Locusts. Locusts have a 30 second timed life.
Locust
12 damage
0.6 weapon speed
30 second duration
Evolve Flying Locust
Requires Lair
200/200/160
Allows Locusts spawned by Swarm Hosts to fly. Flying Locusts can use Swoop to land and attack.
Swoop: Orders the Locust to land at the targeted location, allowing it to attack.
Raven Point Defense Drones duration decreasing to 20 seconds
How do you think this affects late game Zerg play vs Protoss or Terran?
CMStorm_Polt: It seems good that Swarm Hosts will gain more utility, but their new price seems somewhat expensive... it's something I'd have to play against in a real game to know.
Axiom_Alicia: I don't think they are bad changes. I'm not entirely sure about the specific numbers/stats on the new Swarm Host will end up playing out, so I can't really say how games will change. Since colossi will be unable to hit flying locusts, I'm wondering how Protoss is going to deal with them.
mY_ijjakji: Just going off this change, I can't say that it's good or bad that Blizzard is willing to make such big changes. But given that PvZ had a lot of games that dragged out very long, I think it's good that Blizzard recognized there was a problem and wanted to test changes to fix it. Long Swarm Host games in ZvP are boring for both the players and the spectators, so it's a good test.
Axiom_Impact: I think it will be about the same. It's not like locusts can attack while flying, so even in the late game I don't think much will change.
Axiom_Crank: It's true that Zerg will have more things to micro since locust spawning won't be automatic anymore. However, due to the improved mobility of swarm hosts/locusts, I don't think we'll reach the end game scenarios where Protoss plays mass air.
Liquid_TLO: Well, hard to tell right now. The flying locusts will make Collosus less effective at picking them off before they deal damage. You will also be able to spread the more easily as the Locusts won't clump up because of terrain, so you can magic box them to reduce the damage of storm. On top of that it'll be harder to get to that stage as Protoss. So I think it'll be fine.
Liquid_Bunny: Since i'm not playing this match up myself it's hard to tell, but all my zerg teammates seems to be of the opinion that swarm hosts are the only viable option late game. The good news is that with the new swarm host, zerg might be able to trade better in the mid game or do harassment much better. In TvP terran also has a big disadvantage late game, but the match up is still balanced simply due to the amount of pressure terran can put up in the mid game. So perhaps it's possible for ZvP to function in the same manner, though i do feel it's more fun if both races has a shot at an end game goal, as long as the games aren't drawn out.
EG_HuK: Skytoss has always been a response to SH not the other way around. Even when Zerg goes mass spore/corruptor/viper it is still very good vs sky toss, zerg can and do win on a regular basis vs it. So argument doesn't really make sense to me.
mYi_Kane: I think protoss will probably gain the edge in the late game, but i don't think it'll be so easy for them to get there; at least hopefully not. zerg to me has always been a "kill them in the midgame" kind of race anyways, and the way swarmhosts were being used didn't feel zerg-like to me in the first place.
coL_Moosegills: The skytoss/ht composition is not actually a problem for zergs currently because of the Protoss doesn't maintain colossus is their composition the zerg will always be able to kill the high Templar through fungal + locust, and then the air army will just die to vipers. Due to the locust frequency changes, it is unlikely that zerg will be able to deal with the ht/skytoss composition in lategame, however there will be more harassment options to stop Protoss from getting to that late game and it should even things out.
Do you think that the new Swarmhosts will be used to split maps as they are now, or harass with flying locusts?
Axiom_Alicia: The manual spawning of locusts seems to be trying to force multi-tasking on Zerg. However, the ability to spawn locusts without burrowing also means it makes it easier for Zerg to hit and run, so I don't think it makes microing Swarm Hosts that much harder. On top of that the locusts are stronger, which will make it tough for Protoss to face them.
Axiom_Impact: I don't think things will change that much.
Axiom_Crank: Because of the price and supply change, as well as the locust timer going up, it seems like they'll be easier to handle than current Swarm Hosts.
Liquid_TLO: Games will become ridiculously aggressive I think, zvp will hopefully look much more like zvt after this change. There should be fights all over the map with small task forces, trying to pull the enemy out position to kill a base or blink on top of exposed Swarmhostrs.
Liquid_Bunny: If the spawn timer is doubled then it shouldn't be possible to rely on a big swarm host count, since you can kill the first wave and then zergs army value will simply be too low to defend. They should be better as harasment units, or just aggro units for timings. I think they will be especially powerful on maps with pocket naturals like nimbus, or just maps with favorable air space design in general.
EG_HuK: I'm not sure about this TBH. The biggest thing is that they will become more micro intensive. That's the biggest difference for me, instead of them just being very easy to use they will actually take skill/time/clicks now which will take away from other aspects of zerg play and open the game up.
mYi_Kane: i think with the new delayed spawning time of the locusts you won't be able to mass swarmhosts like you could before they won't be able to split the map like they did before, like i said the spawning time will have a huge effect on that, and they'll probably be used in a fewer number for a more mobile harass kind of unit.
coL_Moosegills: Since the new cooldown for spawning locusts is 60 seconds and the locusts are only alive for 30 seconds it is unlikely they will still be used in split map styles. Combined with the fact that the flying locust upgrade is available at lair I expect swarmhosts to turn into primarily harassment units
Do you think the PDD change is too much?
CMStorm_Polt: I think reducing the PDD time to 20 seconds is a bit too much, I think it should be around 45 seconds to one minute at least.
Axiom_Heart: I though the duration of PDD's was a bit long before, but reducing it to 20 seconds is too short.
mYi_jjakji:I don't think it's reasonable to nerf the PDD without giving Ravens a buff in return. It's not the PDD that causes the late-game stalemates in TvZ – it's Swarm Hosts. Once Zerg is in place with lines of crawlers and Swarm Hosts, Terran needs the PDD's to even get up to 50/50 in that situation.
Axiom_Ryung: PDD's usually got destroyed before their timers ran out, so I don't think a nerf is neccesary.
Liquid_TLO: I personally never had any issues with playing against mech, so I'm just taking this as a gift that'll make my life much easier vs Terran.
Liquid_Bunny: I'm not even sure on why this PDD nerf is coming, i'm all for nerfing turtle play so i don't mind though. The thing is that flying locust should make turtle mech unplayable, even with PDD, flying locusts swoop down and your tanks kill eachother just from the splash. You can also raid the terrans main and he will not be able to block it, unless there's some way to kill the locust will they are in the air.
EG_HuK: This is a question generally only important in TvZ mech it seems. I mean it's a pretty big nerf, but Mech is already more and more viable these days. Will be hard to say when the meta completely changes because of the SH changes; we sha'll see.
coL_Moosegills: Point defense drone is the defensive stepping stone that allows Terran to defend long enough to get mass raven in the late late game. With the PDD nerf the ability for Terran to mass Ravens will be greatly hindered.
Do you want to see these changes go soon or after a long period of testing?
CMStorm_Polt: I think the attempt itself is good, and we need continuous change going forward. Right now besides ZvP, all of the match-ups tend to play out in the same way, and it's something that's criticized by the fans. I hope they can look into this.
Axiom_Heart: I can't understand putting through such a big patch toward the end of HotS, but it will definitely make an impact on how games are played once Swarm Hosts come out.
mYi_jjakji: I think the Swarm Host changes are worth testing. However, it's likely to drastically change how the game plays out, so it should only be patched in after extensive testing.
Axiom_Ryung: I've never really given patches that much thought up till now, but I think this swarm host patch might not be a good idea. Players put in a lot of practice to form the builds and strategies with which the game is played, and this is the first time it feels like a single patch could change everything drastically.
Axiom_Impact: I'm a bit taken aback because it's such an extreme change. There's nothing I'd specifically like Blizzard to look at.
Axiom_Crank: First off, please do something about maphacking. From our point of view, we can't understand how there's no response at all, no matter how many reports we send or how many messages we send through social media. Even if something is done, it happens very late.
Liquid_TLO: Oh I'd love it if it just comes out right away, I think it would make the game much more interesting than it is right now. We haven't had any changes for a while and everyone has disliked the swarmhost ever since it came out, this update will bring some fresh which is very needed until LOTV comes out.
Liquid_Bunny: Honestly i would like to see it implemented as soon as possible, i'm really happy that blizzard is willing to go through with big changes like these pre-lotv. To me the last balance patch feels like it happened forever ago, in general i actually like as many patches as possible since it keeps the game fresh.
EG_HuK: Widow mines should of been pushed through IMO. They are still ridiculously strong and almost always cost efficient no matter what use; sometimes can totally win a game. I would rather see the changes come out sooner rather than later.
mYi_Kane: i want the changes to come out asap, i think turtle mech and turtle SH is really dumb and should be changed immediately to make the viewer AND player experience more enjoyable, even if it is kind of midseason. the widow change probably is a bigger deal in pvt, but in zvt i've found it pretty balanced recently
coL_Moosegills: I would like the see these changes come out as soon as possible, keeping in mind the affect of ongoing tournaments. With pro league going on nearly constantly the best you could ask for regarding a patch release date is worked around the wcs/gsl playing schedule
With zerg being more harassment focused with this change, do you foresee any cool playstyles that could come out of this?
Liquid_TLO: I'm already using aggressive Swarmhosts, now it'll be easier cause you can actually move them off creep without risking as much. It should lead to a much more flexible mid to late game. Swarmhost timings to break 3rds will become a really big threat, especially with the hive follow up to hit anywhere you want. I think it'll feel similiar to playing bio vs Protoss. You'll hit really hard in 2 different spots with your first swarmhost timing. Then once your flying locusts finish any base is fair game. Protoss will have to be super good at retaining their unit count. Else they won't be able to keep up I believe.
Liquid_Bunny: I haven't seen nor played any games on the balance test map, so my opinions are purely from theorizing. I'm still not really a fan of the swarm host, even in it's changed state. However you might be able to pull off some serious map abuse with the new flying locust, i'm looking forward to seeing how that develops. I hope we won't have to restrict map design even further, between blink all ins, force fields and flying locust map makers should have their hands full.
EG_HuK: I think zerg will rely more on roaches again in all matchups. Lately we've been seeing more early game aggresive zergs and it has been working for them at the highest level. Really depends obviously all races will adapt to new trends so I'm not sure where the accepted meta will end up.
mYi_Kane: It seems to me that some cool stuff like a muta/ling with a few swarmhosts in zvp just to go harass mineral lines on stuff could be really really cool. i'm really looking forward to some cool new innovative playstyles,
coL_Moosegills: I haven't played or watched too many lotv mod games. Drawing inspiration from the impact vs crank highlight clip I expect zergs will often get a handful of swarmhosts for harassment while doing tech switches between ground compositions and mutalisks as a standard way to play ZvP.
Have you played any of the balance test maps previously?
CMStorm_Polt: I don't play them unless I have a very specific reason to. I'm already busy enough practicing.
Axiom_Heart: I've only played them in some event matches on our team.
Axiom_Alicia: I don't play the balance test maps. There's no advantage to being a tester. It's tough to find a practice partner who wants to play them, and it's just a waste of time for someone who's competing in a tournament.
mYi_jjakji: If Blizzard wants more active participation, I think they'd have to give something to the players who actively help out in testing the map. That, or they might be better off going directly to specific teams or players for help. If they put out a test map and blindly ask people to try it out, I don't think players are going to cut into their practice time to play it. When you're a player who has a tournament to play, you honestly don't feel that there's any real need to play a test map.
Axiom_Ryung: In a situation where you don't know whether the changes will even be applied or not, there's really no reason to play it. It's fine to just try it out through ladder after the patch goes through.
Axiom_Impact: I don't play it much – I'm busy enough playing HotS.
Axiom_Crank: I don't play games on the test map. Yes, pros need to play the test maps and give Blizzard feedback for good balance matches to come out. However, progamers have a lot of tournaments to worry about, and it's not like you can figure out a balance test map with just a handful of games. It's something that takes a few months of observation, so most people end up not even trying. In this regard, it would be great if we could find a really innovative way of testing. In the present system, it just isn't realistic to expect progamers to participate voluntarily.
i think this is generally a bad idea. While I am a fan of less raven and SH bull. the idea was proposed for HOTS with zerg having other options in the mid game (lurkers and whatever roaches become) without these additions, it feels like a massive nerf and forcing zergs to either roach-hydra, muta ling, bling or some earlier all in for the vs terran meta. not too sure on TvP or PvZ yet.
Kane's answers are great. Actually, Kane in general is great.
It does seem like the general consensus on the way the testing system is currently, is not great and I'd have to agree. I've always tried to play the test maps but it's really difficult to do when the only people I can play against aren't actually people (A.I's) as I'll get bored of waiting for someone to join or finding someone to play with me.
despite all pro gamer's opinions (whether approve or reject the idea of flying locusts) i dont think flying locusts would be balanced at all... just a thought tho...
A weekly/monthly tournament, with a community donated prize pool, which features balance test maps. They can be the balance test maps made by blizzard, or balance test maps made by others. This way you can test huge changes to the game in a competitive environment, and the viewers get to enjoy some variation. Changes that are proven successful can be considered for the main game.
Flying locusts seem wayyy too strong vs mech. Unless they give Terran more AoE Anti-air to block harassment, it will promote turtle play even more so than currently. Terran will have to sit in their base with mines and thors to defend and idk it seems bad.
Can't you just stagger your SHs to always have a wave out? With the increased damage and swooping you wouldn't need as many locusts per wave to keep the T/P discouraged to walk through the waves.
Also, late-game zerg needs soooo much gas now! :o Maybe that will encourage zergs to take more bases for gas though, which is good I guess.
A weekly/monthly tournament, with a community donated prize pool, which features balance test maps. They can be the balance test maps made by blizzard, or balance test maps made by others. This way you can test huge changes to the game in a competitive environment, and the viewers get to enjoy some variation. Changes that are proven successful can be considered for the main game.
Something like this seems like a good move. Maybe less frequent (one or at most two tournaments per suggested patch, towards the end when the meta settles a bit) and have a bit more significant prize pool (from blizzard) to top placing player of each race, so that people will play even if the patch turns out to be poorly balanced. Then this should be a decent option for pros that are knocked out of tournaments to make some $$$ at the side.
A "Pro Opinions" piece on the new Swarm Hosts and no Snute in the article, wtf Liquid O_o
On January 30 2015 12:37 H0i wrote: What about:
A weekly/monthly tournament, with a community donated prize pool, which features balance test maps. They can be the balance test maps made by blizzard, or balance test maps made by others. This way you can test huge changes to the game in a competitive environment, and the viewers get to enjoy some variation. Changes that are proven successful can be considered for the main game.
It's a nice idea, but I'm unsure whether the community support would be important enough, both in terms of viewer and prizepool. We could do the same with maps too, would avoid some disasters in the map pool.
The problem remains that when building SH, you just throw free units at your opponent which boring even when you use it at an harassment tool. You don't care about the amount of damage you'll deal or the cost effectivness of your attack since it's free ! It's a cool buff to zerg but it isn't a good revamp of the unit.
On January 30 2015 16:38 algue wrote: The problem remains that when building SH, you just throw free units at your opponent which boring even when you use it at an harassment tool. You don't care about the amount of damage you'll deal or the cost effectivness of your attack since it's free ! It's a cool buff to zerg but it isn't a good revamp of the unit.
I never got why free units would be automatically bad tbh. Bad unit design is when a unit doesn't have enough drawbacks to balance its strenghts out, and thus can be absurdly made en masse without problems. And it seems to me that the new SH resolves that issue, because they'll be dead weight half the time + you'll have to babysit them.
pdd nerf is way over the top. If they wanted to nerf it to 20 seconds only, make it more powerful during its life span. Right now pdd's are pretty much garbage. flying locusts? free units are still free units
imagine the day blizzard will realise swarmhost is a terribly designed unit and remove it and evreone will go, "finaly that was such a terrible idea of a unit"
On January 30 2015 18:39 sertas wrote: imagine the day blizzard will realise swarmhost is a terribly designed unit and remove it and evreone will go, "finaly that was such a terrible idea of a unit"
imo new swarmhost is so different from the original one that this change effectively "removes" the swarmhost and replaces it with something different
When people says that Flying Locust will break TvZ mech, I'm not sure quiet yet. An important fact to take into consideration is that now WM is a somewhat viable response to SH . It can hit both ground and air and with the HP of locust you can pretty much deny a clump of locust with a handfull of mines. The main change is that now the time between two locust wave is superior than the mine cooldown. SO every single wave will have some charged mines as a response.
The mine tank turtle dream might be a thing now. We will need a lot of testing to see how SH synergize with other mech counter such as mutas and ultralisk. Charge with ultralisk in mines field to allow locust to hit tanks might be a good way to break siege lines.
I remember when HTOmario showed us some sexy style with mass mines that I'm still using from time to time. This style might become very potent now.
This change is really exciting because it opens tons of possibility for openings and aggressive styles in both TvP and TvZ. I am just worried that in one matchup Z got the long stick and in the other the short stick. I hope this will balance out by its own !
The raven nerf might indicate that balance team identified that the SH redesign is leading to an advantage of mech terran vs zerg.
I guess the pdd nerf is way too much. It isnt just vs SH, but also very important vs marauders and vikings and in TvP as well. Will try the balance map to see how it actual works out
I love how almost every argument HUK has, its something that also can be said about him. He likes how a unit now needs more control... while he has the race that likes to deathball-amove in lategame. Or how he complains about a unit (WM) that can almost win games on its own (while doing lots of Blink allins and DT rushes) and so on and so on...
CMStorm_Polt: I think the attempt itself is good, and we need continuous change going forward. Right now besides ZvP, all of the match-ups tend to play out in the same way, and it's something that's criticized by the fans. I hope they can look into this.
Do you want to see these changes go soon or after a long period of testing?
Axiom_Crank: First off, please do something about maphacking. From our point of view, we can't understand how there's no response at all, no matter how many reports we send or how many messages we send through social media. Even if something is done, it happens very late.
CMStorm_Polt: I think the attempt itself is good, and we need continuous change going forward. Right now besides ZvP, all of the match-ups tend to play out in the same way, and it's something that's criticized by the fans. I hope they can look into this.
This!Give us back templar openings in PvT
Kinda funny because this patch makes TvP mech even more dead than what it was already.
Wow, look at the dichotomy. Korean players want slower changes (some even opting for none) while foreign players want these changes implemented as soon as possible. Must be a big headache for the development team.
Alicia's idea about the the design of flying locust sounds very interesting. Also flying locust only attacks flying units and big units like colossus? I like this design.
Always nice to have these, but I disagree with the first sentence, it's not a balance change, it's a design change. And it's not been a while, this is the first time Blizzard does something like this without an expansion. The significance of this can't be overstated, the fact that they are now willing to change the gameplay is huge.
Why not ask the best swarm host player on earth, snute ? I think asking these questions people who rarely (or never) play swarmhosts is pretty much useless as they have very little knowledge about the style as people like Snute, targa (or any other eu zergs)
On January 31 2015 01:56 Hot_Ice wrote: Flying locusts - even longer ranged Broodlords anyone?
Not really, it can only attack once a minute and is almost of zero use in a head on fight. Still I can see what you mean, while I really hope this change works out and it's better than the old SH, it seems like there is just no good place for it in Starcraft.
Why doesn't blizzard reach out to the retired, or eliminated progamers from tournaments that want to participate to test out these changes, otherwise like all the pros said they have to practice for current tournaments. So instead just ask people who aren't involved in the tournament scene that much. Seriously like they could hold a small cash money tournament for the pros that want some incentive. Granted this is money to making their game better, which would lead to their game being more watched.
Some of the Comments are super race biased. from 180 sec to 20... gooby pls. Lets make storm 10dmg, so you need to be accurate and have more templurs :D
Dunno, im Terran biased but I do think the SH changes are good. Im tired of reading about how because mech wasnt viable to begin with it shouldnt be taken into account though. Supposedly its something blizzard WANTS to be viable, and everyone keeps saying more options are better.. So yeah, it should kind of be a thing that matters. Fact remains both changes add additional nails to the "mech is viable" option.
Is it me or is it really funny that blizzard is just literally adding in units that they removed from BW with new skins?!
On February 01 2015 17:38 KaZeFenrir wrote: Dunno, im Terran biased but I do think the SH changes are good. Im tired of reading about how because mech wasnt viable to begin with it shouldnt be taken into account though. Supposedly its something blizzard WANTS to be viable, and everyone keeps saying more options are better.. So yeah, it should kind of be a thing that matters. Fact remains both changes add additional nails to the "mech is viable" option.
Is it me or is it really funny that blizzard is just literally adding in units that they removed from BW with new skins?!
More option are good, but the design of mech play is bad in TvZ. In fact it's just the same than Mass SH, you just mass units than hardcounter Zerg units.
Zerglings are useless vs Mech, cause hellbat crush it. With the right among of Tank, Mech crush any zerg ground army, Thor hard counter mutas, Vikings with the combined upgrades are very cost effective vs broodlord and vipers. Raven have no counter. But no Terran says : Mech is bad design, Zerg can't use the units they want. The truth is mech style vs Z is just a deathball style, it's only fun for the player who play it. Personnaly i prefer to see game where both have egal chance, and possibilities, not one having all hard counter, and the other just some soft counter.
But when T can play both play Bio and Mech, and Zerg need to adapt, it's Ok. The fun fact, is when T decide to turtle while he can play bio, and don't have, put his buildings in a corner, ofc it's the Zerg fault, if the game is so long. Yeah the Zerg has never wanted to play against mech, but just adapt to it using SH, but according to mecher he has only the right just to lose the game against this.
The nerf must be Protoss deathball and mech camping style. I don't care playing SH, if you delete the unit, i'm ok, but only if i have the same chance of winning the game vs P and T, and the best win, not the one using abusing style, and low skill caps, like Protoss deathball and mech in TvZ.
I always found it strange that Zerg is the race that can beat every deathball head on with HotS, while they are the race with the best ways to get around deathballs and with the speed to be back at home in time to defend. That they don't need to use those mechanics shows me that either their deathball is to strong or the one of the other races to weak.
But it is ironic that Zerg is the race where players are showing almost no attempt of innovative play and rather die 2 hours and hope the opponent does a mistake. It works for 2 expansions now, so I see that there is no need to change that. But I find it really sad, because I would love seeing them do that.
Axiom_Ryung: PDD's usually got destroyed before their timers ran out, so I don't think a nerf is neccesary. Is it just me or does this sound really dumb and like an argument against himself? Isn't the idea is that they previously lasted so long that they'd always need to be destroyed first, and that's a bad thing? Wouldn't his first statement suggest a nerf is ideal?
On February 01 2015 19:25 FeyFey wrote: I always found it strange that Zerg is the race that can beat every deathball head on with HotS, while they are the race with the best ways to get around deathballs and with the speed to be back at home in time to defend. That they don't need to use those mechanics shows me that either their deathball is to strong or the one of the other races to weak.
But it is ironic that Zerg is the race where players are showing almost no attempt of innovative play and rather die 2 hours and hope the opponent does a mistake. It works for 2 expansions now, so I see that there is no need to change that. But I find it really sad, because I would love seeing them do that.
On February 01 2015 19:25 FeyFey wrote: I always found it strange that Zerg is the race that can beat every deathball head on with HotS, while they are the race with the best ways to get around deathballs and with the speed to be back at home in time to defend. That they don't need to use those mechanics shows me that either their deathball is to strong or the one of the other races to weak.
But it is ironic that Zerg is the race where players are showing almost no attempt of innovative play and rather die 2 hours and hope the opponent does a mistake. It works for 2 expansions now, so I see that there is no need to change that. But I find it really sad, because I would love seeing them do that.
This is sc2 design. Extremely limited micro potential with many hardcounter units and some one-hit units (wm hits lings) and many strong spells (FF etc), everyone is looking for opponent's mistakes than showing own strengths. Only Stephano in his first year had this "magic fights" because he fighted own strengths and ignored everything else.
On February 01 2015 19:25 FeyFey wrote: I always found it strange that Zerg is the race that can beat every deathball head on with HotS, while they are the race with the best ways to get around deathballs and with the speed to be back at home in time to defend. That they don't need to use those mechanics shows me that either their deathball is to strong or the one of the other races to weak.
But it is ironic that Zerg is the race where players are showing almost no attempt of innovative play and rather die 2 hours and hope the opponent does a mistake. It works for 2 expansions now, so I see that there is no need to change that. But I find it really sad, because I would love seeing them do that.
No attempt at innovative play? Lol.
These comments about Zerg superior at working around deathballs are always so ridiculous. And they always come from the guys that start whining the moment they have to defend more than one choke for 4 bases. Let's play on Daedalus 1.0. Let's put double and triple wide ramps to main bases. Let's make 270degree open natural bases. Let's design maps with open field middles like Alterzim. Then we can talk about superior mobility.
On February 01 2015 19:25 FeyFey wrote: I always found it strange that Zerg is the race that can beat every deathball head on with HotS, [...].
So despite all your flame-baiting (yes, go ahead and reply to that with "lol", that'll do it), I find this opening sentence raising an interesting concept. "The reace that can beat every deathball", as if it is not necessary that every late-game composition should have a (soft at least) counter by any race.
Would it be ok with some late-game compositions (death balls) to not be beaten by anything from another race?
The other race would then have to be able to win the game in some other fashion, such as base-trade vs a very slow composition, inefficiently chipping away on the comp and remax from superior economy, or maybe win before the opponent reaches that composition, because the strongest units are crappy before critical mass or something.
I don't know. I guess most would say that no, that is not ok, and I may be one of them, but I just wanted to open the debate quickly, and think about whether there would be some possibility in allowing invincible death-balls in some matchups. It could potentially give more interesting games if passive play just cannot be answered by equally passive play. Note that this doesn't have to mean that one race is an easier "a-move" race, as a deathball still can be hard to manage if it requires skilled use of spells, and that it can be easy to counter-attack if you have a powerful and fast unit. Not saying that this is the case in how hots is played by pros right now, but maybe there is an at least theoretical possibility to have an un-counterable deathball in an enjoyable game, both watching and playing.
On February 01 2015 19:41 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: Axiom_Ryung: PDD's usually got destroyed before their timers ran out, so I don't think a nerf is neccesary. Is it just me or does this sound really dumb and like an argument against himself? Isn't the idea is that they previously lasted so long that they'd always need to be destroyed first, and that's a bad thing? Wouldn't his first statement suggest a nerf is ideal?
Yes, pretty large logical flaw in that argument. I see where he is coming from, and how that can be the first 1-second reaction, so not saying he is stupid or anything, but he probably didn't put a lot of effort into that reply...
On February 01 2015 20:32 Cascade wrote: Would it be ok with some late-game compositions (death balls) to not be beaten by anything from another race?
The other race would then have to be able to win the game in some other fashion, such as base-trade vs a very slow composition, inefficiently chipping away on the comp and remax from superior economy, or maybe win before the opponent reaches that composition, because the strongest units are crappy before critical mass or something.
after testing quite a bit on gm level my initial impression is that it is very hard to find a viable build with the current 200 gas cost, especially since you need a sizable amount to even be able to do anything with them
wonder if anyone had more success but with the current stats I find it hard to believe that sh are viable on pro level
A weekly/monthly tournament, with a community donated prize pool, which features balance test maps. They can be the balance test maps made by blizzard, or balance test maps made by others. This way you can test huge changes to the game in a competitive environment, and the viewers get to enjoy some variation. Changes that are proven successful can be considered for the main game.
It's a nice idea, but I'm unsure whether the community support would be important enough, both in terms of viewer and prizepool. We could do the same with maps too, would avoid some disasters in the map pool.
I think you could get pretty big hype out of that. Balance changes always attract a lot of attention.
I like Axiom Cranks answer...he was like forget all this swarmhost and PDD talk. How about you lazy fat boys at Blizzard do something about map hackers seeing as its been a problem since 2010 and Blizzard has still not fully dedicated to fixing the problem.....touche Crank touche
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/race/SC2T10.png)
CMStorm_Polt: It seems good that Swarm Hosts will gain more utility, but their new price seems somewhat expensive... it's something I'd have to play against in a real game to know. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/race/SC2P10.png)
Axiom_Alicia: I don't think they are bad changes. I'm not entirely sure about the specific numbers/stats on the new Swarm Host will end up playing out, so I can't really say how games will change. Since colossi will be unable to hit flying locusts, I'm wondering how Protoss is going to deal with them.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/race/SC2Z10.png)
Axiom_Impact: I think it will be about the same. It's not like locusts can attack while flying, so even in the late game I don't think much will change. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uuDce94.jpg)
