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On January 30 2015 09:15 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:56 phodacbiet wrote:On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens.
And this actually looks like a SH buff. +100 gas -100 minerals and +1 supply, but they move 30% faster, locust last much longer, locust have way higher DPS, and they fly. I think you underestimate how much +100 gas and +1 supply is. 200 gas is a lot for one unit, and the +1 supply makes it so you cant make too many SH or else your army will just be walked over. Keep in mind that the cool down is pretty long for the SH. Too many SH and youll have dead supplies for like 30 seconds. I consider the Ghost cost change to cost less gas and more minerals as a nerf in combination with Bio. And if you watch Swarmhosts heavy games, the Zerg usually floats gas. This change makes it basically easier to get more spines and spores out. That is assuming that Swarmhosts still functions like now. And since spines and spores don't cost supply and the Locust are basically stronger the increased supply makes it only easier to clear Locust waves. Well it would if they wouldn't fly and avoid the stronger AoEs that way. I can easily see them working like Infestors WoL style now. Except they don't even need energy and are not psionic so snipe and EMP/Feedback doesn't work. Trade and then hide behind the spine forest. But I really need to test this more though. And you can outrun almost everything not Zerg based :p . But they do need more control now. Nothing the Koreans aren't already doing. But it won't be that easy anymore. Probably the reason why they got better in almost all fields.
The only reason zerg floated gas when going SH is because nothing of the Zerg was dying. SH with 25 seconds locust could send waves after waves with nothing dying. Now that swarm hosts have a 60 seconds cool down, there is a MASSIVE window to attack the Zerg. Zergs cant sit around and wait anymore so the gas floating issue shouldnt happen.
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On January 30 2015 09:21 H0i wrote:
After watching the game:
They are currently way UP.
Possibilities that can help out:
- Revert supply and cost nerfs
- Make each SH spawn more locusts, maybe 3 or 4
There should definitely be some guaranteed damage when a locusts casts swoop on an enemy unit, kind of like how charge also does guaranteed damage. But in the match I don't think this was the case?
It would be nice for them to do their default damage as part of their swoop if their swoop targets a unit, kind of like BLs' attack, but less severe. You could combine that with allowing the locusts to swoop back into the air and avoid return attacks, and then swoop right back down again.
On January 30 2015 09:22 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:21 Lexender wrote:
what games are you watching? where? ?_? Showmatches on Nathanias stream. Unfortunately for you, they're over  .
He's doing more later tonight, he said.
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On January 30 2015 09:22 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Terran
Raven
Point Defense Drone duration decreased from 180 seconds to 20 seconds LOL why didn't they just half the duration 1-3 years ago? I mean, leaving it this long then reducing it by a factor of 9 is pretty insane
Honestly, why is nobody talking about this? I mean the swarm host change is huge (and neeeeds to be tweaked), but that's a massive nerf to PDD.
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On January 30 2015 09:24 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Like in the Goswser game... he builds 30mutas and actually harasses. Forces pheonixes instead of the Protoss being able to build the deathball he wants.
Like the Pet vs iaguz game on Overgrowth. Instead of forcing mass turrets at once location and sometimes picking up a tank, forcing mass turrets at all locations and picking up anything left and right. To be perfectly frank, Gosuuser and Petraeus played pretty trash in regards to the new SHs. They repeatedly burrowed their hosts when they were under attack, when they're now fast enough to escape army units, leaving them to be easily picked off and not able to spawn locusts. Furthermore, they rallied their locusts straight into the army. You can't win army vs army with the new SHs, because the respawn timer is too long. You have to use them to pull the opponent in different directions, as is their design goal. Seriously, both of the zerg players were so stubborn that it made me sad to see them used as examples of SH play for the showmatches. Put them in the hands of Impact or Leenock and you've got an extremely different story.
They're not fast enough to escape phoenix/blink stalkers/stimmed bio though. It's strange but I feel like the other campaign version -the one that could appear everywhere you had creep- would have far more potential as a harass oriented unit.
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On January 30 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Probably saying this for the 3rd or 4th time in a different thread, but I don't see why you would build them at all...
Just build 30mutalisks instead of 15 of them. Way better at harassing. Way better at defending. Provide antiair. Are much faster. Neither of them can combat. But mutas can basetrade.
Like in the Goswser game... he builds 30mutas and actually harasses. Forces pheonixes instead of the Protoss being able to build the deathball he wants.
Like the Pet vs iaguz game on Overgrowth. Instead of forcing mass turrets at once location and sometimes picking up a tank, forcing mass turrets at all locations and picking up anything left and right.
The thing is, 5 Swarm Hosts for example don't take much supply, but are pain in the ass to deal with if they constantly harass from long range and are constantly being repositioned, and 5 Swarm Hosts are definitely doing more damage than 10 Mutalisks.
I am not even sure why would you want to mass new Swarm Hosts, that is the whole point why they are redesigned... they are even harder to mass now with cost and supply changes.
They are probably supposed to work like Terran drops, harassing and killing important structures but unlike with Mutas, you aren't losing anything if Protoss just warp-ins 10 Stalkers, use Photon Overcharge or have few Cannons in base.
Even in head on engagements, 6-8 Swarm Hosts definitely have more dps than 12-16 Mutas.
On January 30 2015 09:29 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:24 Pontius Pirate wrote:On January 30 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Like in the Goswser game... he builds 30mutas and actually harasses. Forces pheonixes instead of the Protoss being able to build the deathball he wants.
Like the Pet vs iaguz game on Overgrowth. Instead of forcing mass turrets at once location and sometimes picking up a tank, forcing mass turrets at all locations and picking up anything left and right. To be perfectly frank, Gosuuser and Petraeus played pretty trash in regards to the new SHs. They repeatedly burrowed their hosts when they were under attack, when they're now fast enough to escape army units, leaving them to be easily picked off and not able to spawn locusts. Furthermore, they rallied their locusts straight into the army. You can't win army vs army with the new SHs, because the respawn timer is too long. You have to use them to pull the opponent in different directions, as is their design goal. Seriously, both of the zerg players were so stubborn that it made me sad to see them used as examples of SH play for the showmatches. Put them in the hands of Impact or Leenock and you've got an extremely different story. They're not fast enough to escape phoenix/blink stalkers/stimmed bio though. It's strange but I feel like the other campaign version -the one that could appear everywhere you had creep- would have far more potential as a harass oriented unit.
Of course they have more potential, and are far more broken lol. Swarm Hosts that produce creep and can teleport almost anywhere on the map are insane.
They probably are my favorite campaign units, the Creeper strain. Just beautiful.
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My knee jerk reaction is to hate it, but I think the SH changes are good, overall. Zerg and mech players I think are going to have a hard time dealing with flying locusts, simply because Terran mech anti air sucks, and zerg is extremely limited with reflexive anti air responses. Everyone else though shouldnt have too much of an issue with it.
I really think buffing the locust life is the better option, not their dps, especially considering its going to be longer between waves and you're going to be sinking a considerable amount of supply and gas into SH to even make them worth harassing with.
The Raven nerf seems stupidly extreme, simply because it supremely limits gameplay options with a unit no one uses anyway. Thats almost literally the story of Starcraft 2: "Use these units, because these ones suck and have no use."
Overall I think Blizzard is always a step behind what they SHOULD be doing: Making more options and playstyles. The idea they have in their heads to "make more interesting matches" is a good one, but the path they take to accomplish it is flawed. An expansion shouldnt be focused on just invigorating one aspect of the game, or just fixing something stupid they broke in the first place, but about making it feel like a much better experience overall.
I hope LOTV is really the injection that's needed to keep more pro's in the scene, but I doubt it will be. I think in the end SC2 would be better served by way more fan and community customization rather than waiting for blizzard to make it the game we all wish it would be.
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1138 Posts
On January 30 2015 08:54 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 30 2015 08:16 Big J wrote:On January 30 2015 08:08 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 30 2015 08:06 Big J wrote:On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens. Noone at a reasonable level is playing Ravens against Protoss. I understand you critics, but that's just some lowtier change. The Tempest should be changed, but for other reasons than Ravens not countering them anymore. That's a complete non-issue in the current state of the Boys vs Protoss matchup. Mech exists. This is a balance thread, so we should consider all play-styles. Not just Zerg perspective, or bio perspective. I don't want to dig into what playstyles you are "supposed to be able to play" too much, especially since I'm all about making more playstyles viable, but note that the game is simply being balanced around "what works". At this point, Mech has as much of a "right to exist" vs Protoss as Sentry/Voidray or any other completely random Protoss composition vs Terran has. It's just a combination of units that some people want to be working, not anything that needs to be working. If tanks don't work against Immortals, then I guess don't play them. Just like a Protoss doesn't run mass voidrays into marines and then complains that it doesn't work. You're backpedaling now because I called you out for not fairly thinking for all races. This isn't something minor like an isolated unit vs unit interaction. This is about the viability of a major playstyle. There's no reason for half of Terran to not be viable. Tempests are standard vs mech (something you obviously didn't know), and with a Raven nerf but no change to Protoss Tempest + HT is unstoppable. Mech just went from "you will probably lose" to "you lose". The ramifications of all potential changes should be considered. I don't know much about mech tvp but your reasoning is fundamentally wrong. If the protoss gets mass tempest/ht deathball then your screwed?
Reasoning is not fundamentally wrong at all. This should've stopped at the "don't know much about mech tvp" part.
On January 30 2015 08:54 Shuffleblade wrote:Sounds like something that has existed a lot in SC2, this was how protoss worked for large parts of WoL, protoss gets perfect deathball-> you die.
Tempest is not the "perfect deathball". It's the standard Protoss response to mech after Immortals.
On January 30 2015 08:54 Shuffleblade wrote:Terran mech with tons of ravens vs zerg is perhaps an even better example
The dynamic of mech vs Z is that Zerg gets free economic reign, free ability to expand and quadruple upgrade and cover the entire map in creep in exchange for mech having better direct confrontations and no mobility. The mech player doesn't have to kill just one 200/200 Z army. It has to kill 2 or potentially even 3 because of the instant remaxes.
And even so Zerg has the Viper which gives it the ability to fight mech head on, so even not counting the remaxes and economic reign a Zerg player can still just roll over a mech army head-on with a good engage.
On January 30 2015 08:54 Shuffleblade wrote:The answer, don't let them get there
This is the Zerg answer. Mech cannot do these things. Mech is slower and weaker than Protoss, so it needs to have a head-on fighting chance. Thematically Protoss is supposed to be beefy but high-tech and a bit more mobile, while pure mech is supposed to be pathetically immobile but with enough firepower to hold off.
You went really deep into mech in your post so I wanted to address that, but this is not a mech thread. All people are saying is that if a change aimed at TvZ stalemates inadvertently makes mech in other matchups into even worse state then that needs to be monitored or accounted for as well, as it wasn't the intention of the change.
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On January 30 2015 09:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Probably saying this for the 3rd or 4th time in a different thread, but I don't see why you would build them at all...
Just build 30mutalisks instead of 15 of them. Way better at harassing. Way better at defending. Provide antiair. Are much faster. Neither of them can combat. But mutas can basetrade.
Like in the Goswser game... he builds 30mutas and actually harasses. Forces pheonixes instead of the Protoss being able to build the deathball he wants.
Like the Pet vs iaguz game on Overgrowth. Instead of forcing mass turrets at once location and sometimes picking up a tank, forcing mass turrets at all locations and picking up anything left and right. The thing is, 5 Swarm Hosts for example don't take much supply, but are pain in the ass to deal with if they constantly harass from long range and are constantly being repositioned, and 5 Swarm Hosts are definitely doing more damage than 10 Mutalisks. I am not even sure why would you want to mass new Swarm Hosts, that is the whole point why they are redesigned... they are even harder to mass now with cost and supply changes. They are probably supposed to work like Terran drops, harassing and killing important structures but unlike with Mutas, you aren't losing anything if Protoss just warp-ins 10 Stalkers, use Photon Overcharge or have few Cannons in base. Even in head on engagements, 6-8 Swarm Hosts definitely have more dps than 12-16 Mutas.
I agree we need to see the new SHs in the hands of someone who would use them as a hitsquad and be very active with them. But frankly, 1000 gas to kill some workers and buildings doesn't seem worth it at all.
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On January 30 2015 09:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 30 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Probably saying this for the 3rd or 4th time in a different thread, but I don't see why you would build them at all...
Just build 30mutalisks instead of 15 of them. Way better at harassing. Way better at defending. Provide antiair. Are much faster. Neither of them can combat. But mutas can basetrade.
Like in the Goswser game... he builds 30mutas and actually harasses. Forces pheonixes instead of the Protoss being able to build the deathball he wants.
Like the Pet vs iaguz game on Overgrowth. Instead of forcing mass turrets at once location and sometimes picking up a tank, forcing mass turrets at all locations and picking up anything left and right. The thing is, 5 Swarm Hosts for example don't take much supply, but are pain in the ass to deal with if they constantly harass from long range and are constantly being repositioned, and 5 Swarm Hosts are definitely doing more damage than 10 Mutalisks. I am not even sure why would you want to mass new Swarm Hosts, that is the whole point why they are redesigned... they are even harder to mass now with cost and supply changes. They are probably supposed to work like Terran drops, harassing and killing important structures but unlike with Mutas, you aren't losing anything if Protoss just warp-ins 10 Stalkers, use Photon Overcharge or have few Cannons in base. Even in head on engagements, 6-8 Swarm Hosts definitely have more dps than 12-16 Mutas. I agree we need to see the new SHs in the hands of someone who would use them as a hitsquad and be very active with them. But frankly, 1000 gas to kill some workers and buildings doesn't seem worth it at all.
So it seems that they still have the problem of being too powerful in high numbers and too weak in low numbers.
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By the way, has Blizz given us any feedback on the preview balance testing map nerfing WM's damage vs shields?
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On January 30 2015 09:35 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 30 2015 09:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 30 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Probably saying this for the 3rd or 4th time in a different thread, but I don't see why you would build them at all...
Just build 30mutalisks instead of 15 of them. Way better at harassing. Way better at defending. Provide antiair. Are much faster. Neither of them can combat. But mutas can basetrade.
Like in the Goswser game... he builds 30mutas and actually harasses. Forces pheonixes instead of the Protoss being able to build the deathball he wants.
Like the Pet vs iaguz game on Overgrowth. Instead of forcing mass turrets at once location and sometimes picking up a tank, forcing mass turrets at all locations and picking up anything left and right. The thing is, 5 Swarm Hosts for example don't take much supply, but are pain in the ass to deal with if they constantly harass from long range and are constantly being repositioned, and 5 Swarm Hosts are definitely doing more damage than 10 Mutalisks. I am not even sure why would you want to mass new Swarm Hosts, that is the whole point why they are redesigned... they are even harder to mass now with cost and supply changes. They are probably supposed to work like Terran drops, harassing and killing important structures but unlike with Mutas, you aren't losing anything if Protoss just warp-ins 10 Stalkers, use Photon Overcharge or have few Cannons in base. Even in head on engagements, 6-8 Swarm Hosts definitely have more dps than 12-16 Mutas. I agree we need to see the new SHs in the hands of someone who would use them as a hitsquad and be very active with them. But frankly, 1000 gas to kill some workers and buildings doesn't seem worth it at all. So it seems that they still have the problem of being too powerful in high numbers and too weak in low numbers.
More like weak in low numbers and useless supply in high numbers seemingly. But once again maybe a 5 SHs squad in the hands of a very good player could be a nightmare to deal with, more playtesting is of course needed.
On January 30 2015 09:36 VengefulTree wrote:
By the way, has Blizz given us any feedback on the preview balance testing map nerfing WM's damage vs shields?
Soon.
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On January 30 2015 09:36 VengefulTree wrote:
By the way, has Blizz given us any feedback on the preview balance testing map nerfing WM's damage vs shields?
They said they are putting it on hold for now or something like that when they announced this test on Jan, 20th.
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On January 30 2015 09:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 30 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Probably saying this for the 3rd or 4th time in a different thread, but I don't see why you would build them at all...
Just build 30mutalisks instead of 15 of them. Way better at harassing. Way better at defending. Provide antiair. Are much faster. Neither of them can combat. But mutas can basetrade.
Like in the Goswser game... he builds 30mutas and actually harasses. Forces pheonixes instead of the Protoss being able to build the deathball he wants.
Like the Pet vs iaguz game on Overgrowth. Instead of forcing mass turrets at once location and sometimes picking up a tank, forcing mass turrets at all locations and picking up anything left and right. The thing is, 5 Swarm Hosts for example don't take much supply, but are pain in the ass to deal with if they constantly harass from long range and are constantly being repositioned, and 5 Swarm Hosts are definitely doing more damage than 10 Mutalisks. I am not even sure why would you want to mass new Swarm Hosts, that is the whole point why they are redesigned... they are even harder to mass now with cost and supply changes. They are probably supposed to work like Terran drops, harassing and killing important structures but unlike with Mutas, you aren't losing anything if Protoss just warp-ins 10 Stalkers, use Photon Overcharge or have few Cannons in base. Even in head on engagements, 6-8 Swarm Hosts definitely have more dps than 12-16 Mutas. I agree we need to see the new SHs in the hands of someone who would use them as a hitsquad and be very active with them. But frankly, 1000 gas to kill some workers and buildings doesn't seem worth it at all.
Tell that to the guys that goes for 10 Mutas and then switch to something else. It creates reaction by opponent, while Zerg is tech switching, that is the whole point.
But unlike 10 Mutas, that are 1000/1000, 5 Swarm Hosts are 500/1000, and actually destroy buildings in matter of seconds. 10 Mutas will kill few workers and will fly away the moment they reach the turret or some anti-air arrives, but you can't deflect 10 Locusts with just Marines or Stalkers. I mean, of course you can but you will again trade units for nothing and they will kill stuff before you reach them anyway.
Just comparing these small numbers of units(I don't compare high numbers of SHs to anything because as I said, I don't think that people should make more than 10 of them anyway) I favor Swarm Hosts a lot over the Mutalisks.
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On January 30 2015 09:32 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:54 Shuffleblade wrote:On January 30 2015 08:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 30 2015 08:16 Big J wrote:On January 30 2015 08:08 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 30 2015 08:06 Big J wrote:On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens. Noone at a reasonable level is playing Ravens against Protoss. I understand you critics, but that's just some lowtier change. The Tempest should be changed, but for other reasons than Ravens not countering them anymore. That's a complete non-issue in the current state of the Boys vs Protoss matchup. Mech exists. This is a balance thread, so we should consider all play-styles. Not just Zerg perspective, or bio perspective. I don't want to dig into what playstyles you are "supposed to be able to play" too much, especially since I'm all about making more playstyles viable, but note that the game is simply being balanced around "what works". At this point, Mech has as much of a "right to exist" vs Protoss as Sentry/Voidray or any other completely random Protoss composition vs Terran has. It's just a combination of units that some people want to be working, not anything that needs to be working. If tanks don't work against Immortals, then I guess don't play them. Just like a Protoss doesn't run mass voidrays into marines and then complains that it doesn't work. You're backpedaling now because I called you out for not fairly thinking for all races. This isn't something minor like an isolated unit vs unit interaction. This is about the viability of a major playstyle. There's no reason for half of Terran to not be viable. Tempests are standard vs mech (something you obviously didn't know), and with a Raven nerf but no change to Protoss Tempest + HT is unstoppable. Mech just went from "you will probably lose" to "you lose". The ramifications of all potential changes should be considered. I don't know much about mech tvp but your reasoning is fundamentally wrong. If the protoss gets mass tempest/ht deathball then your screwed? Reasoning is not fundamentally wrong at all. This should've stopped at the "don't know much about mech tvp" part. Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:54 Shuffleblade wrote:Sounds like something that has existed a lot in SC2, this was how protoss worked for large parts of WoL, protoss gets perfect deathball-> you die. Tempest is not the "perfect deathball". It's the standard Protoss response to mech after Immortals. Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:54 Shuffleblade wrote:Terran mech with tons of ravens vs zerg is perhaps an even better example The dynamic of mech vs Z is that Zerg gets free economic reign, free ability to expand and quadruple upgrade and cover the entire map in creep in exchange for mech having better direct confrontations and no mobility. The mech player doesn't have to kill just one 200/200 Z army. It has to kill 2 or potentially even 3 because of the instant remaxes. And even so Zerg has the Viper which gives it the ability to fight mech head on, so even not counting the remaxes and economic reign a Zerg player can still just roll over a mech army head-on with a good engage. Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:54 Shuffleblade wrote:The answer, don't let them get there This is the Zerg answer. Mech cannot do these things. Mech is slower and weaker than Protoss, so it needs to have a head-on fighting chance. Thematically Protoss is supposed to be beefy but high-tech and a bit more mobile, while pure mech is supposed to be pathetically immobile but with enough firepower to hold off. You went really deep into mech in your post so I wanted to address that, but this is not a mech thread. All people are saying is that if a change aimed at TvZ stalemates inadvertently makes mech in other matchups into even worse state then that needs to be monitored or accounted for as well, as it wasn't the intention of the change.
No that WAS the intention of the change, this is a patch to adress gameplay issues not balance issues, if mech gets weaker in other MU is VERY important for this patch
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Would flying locusts included in the "normal" SH state be something to consider, with the upgrade increasing DPS from the previous state to the current one for instance ? I mean, without flying locusts, harassing with locusts seems borderline impossible.
Good points in the post from Ramiz1989. I still think the idea has potential.
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On January 30 2015 09:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Would flying locusts included in the "normal" SH state be something to consider, with the upgrade increasing DPS from the previous state to the current one for instance ?
Good points in the post from Ramiz1989. I still think the idea has potential.
I think that they will be way too strong if you just remove the upgrade for flying. I know that you would nerf the damage, but then they would literally be better than Mutas if you want to rush them.
Spire takes a lot longer to build than Infestation pit, you will have more minerals for Lings and Roaches to support your Swarm Hosts, and first 5 Swarm Hosts could do a lot of damage even if you are prepared for them, while they are not in danger.
Even if they are somehow in danger, new Swarm Hosts will just walk away with their 2.95 movement speed.
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1138 Posts
On January 30 2015 09:39 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 30 2015 09:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:On January 30 2015 09:15 Big J wrote:
Probably saying this for the 3rd or 4th time in a different thread, but I don't see why you would build them at all...
Just build 30mutalisks instead of 15 of them. Way better at harassing. Way better at defending. Provide antiair. Are much faster. Neither of them can combat. But mutas can basetrade.
Like in the Goswser game... he builds 30mutas and actually harasses. Forces pheonixes instead of the Protoss being able to build the deathball he wants.
Like the Pet vs iaguz game on Overgrowth. Instead of forcing mass turrets at once location and sometimes picking up a tank, forcing mass turrets at all locations and picking up anything left and right. The thing is, 5 Swarm Hosts for example don't take much supply, but are pain in the ass to deal with if they constantly harass from long range and are constantly being repositioned, and 5 Swarm Hosts are definitely doing more damage than 10 Mutalisks. I am not even sure why would you want to mass new Swarm Hosts, that is the whole point why they are redesigned... they are even harder to mass now with cost and supply changes. They are probably supposed to work like Terran drops, harassing and killing important structures but unlike with Mutas, you aren't losing anything if Protoss just warp-ins 10 Stalkers, use Photon Overcharge or have few Cannons in base. Even in head on engagements, 6-8 Swarm Hosts definitely have more dps than 12-16 Mutas. I agree we need to see the new SHs in the hands of someone who would use them as a hitsquad and be very active with them. But frankly, 1000 gas to kill some workers and buildings doesn't seem worth it at all. Tell that to the guys that goes for 10 Mutas and then switch to something else. It creates reaction by opponent, while Zerg is tech switching, that is the whole point. But unlike 10 Mutas, that are 1000/1000, 5 Swarm Hosts are 500/1000, and actually destroy buildings in matter of seconds. 10 Mutas will kill few workers and will fly away the moment they reach the turret or some anti-air arrives, but you can't deflect 10 Locusts with just Marines or Stalkers. I mean, of course you can but you will again trade units for nothing and they will kill stuff before you reach them anyway.Just comparing these small numbers of units(I don't compare high numbers of SHs to anything because as I said, I don't think that people should make more than 10 of them anyway) I favor Swarm Hosts a lot over the Mutalisks.
This is an interesting. I don't know how good the role overlap is though.
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On January 30 2015 07:23 Jer99 wrote:Terran- Raven
- Point Defense Drone duration decreased from 180 seconds to 20 seconds
[/QUOTE]
I don't really understand this change. Most of the time they were emptied in less than 20 seconds anyway. The only problem with 3 minutes PDD was that it made it very easy to leapfrog or turtle, and maybe allowed for too many shots if you considered the regen.
Anyway quite a nerf, haven't they tough of replacing it with an equivalent to defensive matrix instead? PDD is boring, it's an hard counter to missiles units more so those shooting slowly, which is like every AA of the game, and you can't "micro" around or do cool trick, it just creates a no-kill zone.
D-matrix does increase friendly unit survivability, but can be microed around by the opposing player with focus fire, and it has some cool effects like using it on a cheap unit to draw AoE, or to save a critically low HP capital unit. Even the area of effect can be reproduced, couple of D-matrix on a Thor make it basically a no-fly-zone for mutalisk.
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On January 30 2015 09:48 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 09:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Would flying locusts included in the "normal" SH state be something to consider, with the upgrade increasing DPS from the previous state to the current one for instance ?
Good points in the post from Ramiz1989. I still think the idea has potential. I think that they will be way too strong if you just remove the upgrade for flying. I know that you would nerf the damage, but then they would literally be better than Mutas if you want to rush them. Spire takes a lot longer to build than Infestation pit, you will have more minerals for Lings and Roaches to support your Swarm Hosts, and first 5 Swarm Hosts could do a lot of damage even if you are prepared for them, while they are not in danger. Even if they are somehow in danger, new Swarm Hosts will just walk away with their 2.95 movement speed.
Once again you seem to be right !
One thing I would have liked to see more precisely is how much time does a standard PvZ phoenix fleet (3-5) take to clean up locusts while they're flying. With good map awareness, a phoenix player should shut down the harass quite handily, and phoenix openers could come back with a vengeance as "safe against all harass" openers.
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I think the SH change is okay except for the flying locusts part. It seems a little too powerful and easy for things like nexus or orbital snipes without too much risk considering that locusts can respawn without cost in that sense.
I still feel that the SH rework or the direction that units that can spawn stuff should be more along the lines of having some form of resource cost to cast rather than it being free. Almost something like the carrier where the interceptors need to be bought.
Perhaps something like having 3 batches already trained in the SH upon production and requiring further investment in resources to train up more locusts. In late game scenarios, this seems pretty fair to me considering how more capability the locusts are being given.
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EPT
