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On January 30 2015 08:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:08 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 30 2015 08:06 Big J wrote:On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens. Noone at a reasonable level is playing Ravens against Protoss. I understand you critics, but that's just some lowtier change. The Tempest should be changed, but for other reasons than Ravens not countering them anymore. That's a complete non-issue in the current state of the Boys vs Protoss matchup. Mech exists. This is a balance thread, so we should consider all play-styles. Not just Zerg perspective, or bio perspective. I don't want to dig into what playstyles you are "supposed to be able to play" too much, especially since I'm all about making more playstyles viable, but note that the game is simply being balanced around "what works". At this point, Mech has as much of a "right to exist" vs Protoss as Sentry/Voidray or any other completely random Protoss composition vs Terran has. It's just a combination of units that some people want to be working, not anything that needs to be working. If tanks don't work against Immortals, then I guess don't play them. Just like a Protoss doesn't run mass voidrays into marines and then complains that it doesn't work.
well you'd be surprised how many low level protosses in random 4's would think otherwise ahaha, but yeah I fully agree with your points. It would be cool to see Mech be viable, but it's not a popular enough composition that it's causing problems with the enjoyment of the game in a large way like Mech v SH are.
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On January 30 2015 08:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens. Noone at a reasonable level is playing Ravens against Protoss. I understand you critics, but that's just some lowtier change. The Tempest should be changed, but for other reasons than Ravens not countering them anymore. That's a complete non-issue in the current state of the Boys vs Protoss matchup.
people play mech vs protoss all the time in team games
as usual balance patches only apply to 1v1 with no consideration to the effects on team games ;;
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"Cost modified from 200 Minerals and 100 Vespene to 100 Minerals and 200 Vespene"
"Cost is 200 Minerals, 200 Vespene, 160 seconds"
Euh, am I misreading something?
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watching the new locust uselessly fail here is another idea: flying banelings that swarmhosts shoot instead.
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On January 30 2015 08:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:08 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 30 2015 08:06 Big J wrote:On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens. Noone at a reasonable level is playing Ravens against Protoss. I understand you critics, but that's just some lowtier change. The Tempest should be changed, but for other reasons than Ravens not countering them anymore. That's a complete non-issue in the current state of the Boys vs Protoss matchup. Mech exists. This is a balance thread, so we should consider all play-styles. Not just Zerg perspective, or bio perspective. I don't want to dig into what playstyles you are "supposed to be able to play" too much, especially since I'm all about making more playstyles viable, but note that the game is simply being balanced around "what works". At this point, Mech has as much of a "right to exist" vs Protoss as Sentry/Voidray or any other completely random Protoss composition vs Terran has. It's just a combination of units that some people want to be working, not anything that needs to be working. If tanks don't work against Immortals, then I guess don't play them. Just like a Protoss doesn't run mass voidrays into marines and then complains that it doesn't work.
You're backpedaling now because I called you out for not fairly thinking for all races. This isn't something minor like an isolated unit vs unit interaction. This is about the viability of a major playstyle. There's no reason for half of Terran to not be viable. This change was aimed at the standoff in TvZ, and not Protoss or Mech. So when it clips mech in other matchups, something that is already struggling, all without being intended that's an issue.
Tempests are standard vs mech (something you obviously didn't know), and with a Raven nerf but no change to Protoss Tempest + HT is unstoppable. Mech just went from "you will probably lose" to "you lose". The ramifications of all potential changes should be considered.
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USER TESTED REVIEW
Hello,
I'm a mid-diamond zerg and I've recently tested the new swarm host changes against the A.I. First off I personally love this change that might be done to the SH, it makes it a much more supportive and harassment orientated unit, I can see it bring the pep back to some games that were otherwise starvation fests.
Now something I didn't like and want to point out that needs to be changed: If you shift + command them to attack(the locus) or spawn at a certain location, if they land directly on top of the structure/unit they freeze, and don't attack that structure, looks like they just lock up and do nothing. There needs to be a space in-between for them to work. Also if they just spawn right on top of a build or so forth the same thing happens, they don't attack at all.
I'm attaching a 35 minute game against crappy AI as I check out the new changes to the SH. DISCLAIMER: I do BM the AI in the first couple of minutes, this is not the kind of player I am. I played this offline with no knowledge I was going to upload it. I apologize if that offends anyone.
Hope these issues are resolved then I think it's a fantastic change.
http://drop.sc/393202
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On January 30 2015 08:24 Yorbon wrote:
"Cost modified from 200 Minerals and 100 Vespene to 100 Minerals and 200 Vespene"
"Cost is 200 Minerals, 200 Vespene, 160 seconds"
Euh, am I misreading something?
The 2nd one is the cost of the upgrade.
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On January 30 2015 07:49 ( bush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 07:39 Nebuchad wrote:
If we're going to do that seriously we need to play a lot of PvZ and TvP on those maps. I don't think the raven change can go through with no change at all to lategame protoss, but I don't want to advocate a change to lategame protoss before I know how PvZ looks like with those swarmhosts... What role do ravens play in TvP? Please don't act like mech is a thing here.
Here you go:
http://www.twitch.tv/marko_mech_god
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Canada8160 Posts
On January 30 2015 08:24 Yorbon wrote:
"Cost modified from 200 Minerals and 100 Vespene to 100 Minerals and 200 Vespene"
"Cost is 200 Minerals, 200 Vespene, 160 seconds"
Euh, am I misreading something?
fixed, i messed up the listing
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I don't think there's any denying these SH and Raven major changes absolutely CANNOT go without a big overhaul of the tempest too. Blizzard mentioned they were aware of that topical issue in their previous message and I'm pretty sure that after a few weeks of testing another iteration of the map with modified tempests (I'd be okay with removed !) will be published.
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On January 30 2015 08:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I don't think there's any denying these SH and Raven major changes absolutely CANNOT go without a big overhaul of the tempest too. Blizzard mentioned they were aware of that topical issue in their previous message and I'm pretty sure that after a few weeks of testing another iteration of the map with modified tempests (I'd be okay with removed !) will be published.
The thing is, their "new" Tempest(LotV alpha) is actually way worse than the current one. 
And seeing that they are slowly including changes from alpha here, I am not sure I want new Tempests, lol.
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On January 30 2015 08:42 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:38 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I don't think there's any denying these SH and Raven major changes absolutely CANNOT go without a big overhaul of the tempest too. Blizzard mentioned they were aware of that topical issue in their previous message and I'm pretty sure that after a few weeks of testing another iteration of the map with modified tempests (I'd be okay with removed !) will be published. The thing is, their "new" Tempest(LotV alpha) is actually way worse than the current one. And seeing that they are slowly including changes from alpha here, I am not sure I want new Tempests, lol.
That's why this is probably the opportunity or never to push up better changes for the Tempest -which, if you ask me, would be a mere removal and a cut of the carrier production time, which is already in the alpha as well.
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Canada8160 Posts
lol new flying locusts sometimes don't attack anything
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Watching Minigun - Goswser on Nathanias stream right now. Swarm hosts as a 200 gas purely harassed oriented unit seems to make no sense at all. That patch will need a lot of working to be worth it.
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On January 30 2015 08:29 GGuMake wrote:USER TESTED REVIEWHello, I'm a mid-diamond zerg and I've recently tested the new swarm host changes against the A.I. First off I personally love this change that might be done to the SH, it makes it a much more supportive and harassment orientated unit, I can see it bring the pep back to some games that were otherwise starvation fests. Now something I didn't like and want to point out that needs to be changed: If you shift + command them to attack(the locus) or spawn at a certain location, if they land directly on top of the structure/unit they freeze, and don't attack that structure, looks like they just lock up and do nothing. There needs to be a space in-between for them to work. Also if they just spawn right on top of a build or so forth the same thing happens, they don't attack at all. I'm attaching a 35 minute game against crappy AI as I check out the new changes to the SH. DISCLAIMER: I do BM the AI in the first couple of minutes, this is not the kind of player I am. I played this offline with no knowledge I was going to upload it. I apologize if that offends anyone. Hope these issues are resolved then I think it's a fantastic change. http://drop.sc/393202
Good finds, the freezing thing when they landed directly on a gateway just happened on nathanias stream too.
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On January 30 2015 08:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:16 Big J wrote:On January 30 2015 08:08 DemigodcelpH wrote:On January 30 2015 08:06 Big J wrote:On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens. Noone at a reasonable level is playing Ravens against Protoss. I understand you critics, but that's just some lowtier change. The Tempest should be changed, but for other reasons than Ravens not countering them anymore. That's a complete non-issue in the current state of the Boys vs Protoss matchup. Mech exists. This is a balance thread, so we should consider all play-styles. Not just Zerg perspective, or bio perspective. I don't want to dig into what playstyles you are "supposed to be able to play" too much, especially since I'm all about making more playstyles viable, but note that the game is simply being balanced around "what works". At this point, Mech has as much of a "right to exist" vs Protoss as Sentry/Voidray or any other completely random Protoss composition vs Terran has. It's just a combination of units that some people want to be working, not anything that needs to be working. If tanks don't work against Immortals, then I guess don't play them. Just like a Protoss doesn't run mass voidrays into marines and then complains that it doesn't work. You're backpedaling now because I called you out for not fairly thinking for all races. This isn't something minor like an isolated unit vs unit interaction. This is about the viability of a major playstyle. There's no reason for half of Terran to not be viable. Tempests are standard vs mech (something you obviously didn't know), and with a Raven nerf but no change to Protoss Tempest + HT is unstoppable. Mech just went from "you will probably lose" to "you lose". The ramifications of all potential changes should be considered.
I don't know much about mech tvp but your reasoning is fundamentally wrong. If the protoss gets mass tempest/ht deathball then your screwed?
Sounds like something that has existed a lot in SC2, this was how protoss worked for large parts of WoL, protoss gets perfect deathball-> you die.
Terran mech with tons of ravens vs zerg is perhaps an even better example, terran maxed out mech army (8 orbitals 20 workers rest is army) with tanks, vikings and a shit ton of ravens. Unless terran messes upp majorly (like letting Z abduct the army over and over or let it get fungaled over and over) the zerg is fucked without a shadow of a chance.
The answer, don't let them get there, thats what we zergs has had to deal with in a lot of instances.
As for the proposed changes, double gas cost seems pretty hefty lol, this obviously makes SH a very late game option only. GL throwing 2000 gas around for 10 SH early/mid game, then you need to pay gas for all the tech and possible upgrades too. Just.... ouch, not that I ever went SH anyway though, this pretty much seals the deal on me continuing not to use them though.
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On January 30 2015 08:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Watching Minigun - Goswser on Nathanias stream right now. Swarm hosts as a 200 gas purely harassed oriented unit seems to make no sense at all. That patch will need a lot of working to be worth it.
OK the building glitch was a problem. With the DPS now displayed that makes more sense.
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On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens.
And this actually looks like a SH buff. +100 gas -100 minerals and +1 supply, but they move 30% faster, locust last much longer, locust have way higher DPS, and they fly.
I think you underestimate how much +100 gas and +1 supply is. 200 gas is a lot for one unit, and the +1 supply makes it so you cant make too many SH or else your army will just be walked over. Keep in mind that the cool down is pretty long for the SH. Too many SH and youll have dead supplies for like 30 seconds.
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Canada13422 Posts
On January 30 2015 08:56 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 08:04 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Blizzard needs to change Tempests if they want to change Ravens.
And this actually looks like a SH buff. +100 gas -100 minerals and +1 supply, but they move 30% faster, locust last much longer, locust have way higher DPS, and they fly. I think you underestimate how much +100 gas and +1 supply is. 200 gas is a lot for one unit, and the +1 supply makes it so you cant make too many SH or else your army will just be walked over. Keep in mind that the cool down is pretty long for the SH. Too many SH and youll have dead supplies for like 30 seconds.
It also limits the transitions that people can do afterwards.
Thats the important thing to note about the gas cost.
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I can actually understand where this is going now. I like it quite a lot, it seems to give Z harass potential kinda similar to T drops (by air, crazy DPS). It should be dealt with quite easily with phoenix openings but the idea is really interesting.
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EPT
