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Matchfixing is a very serious offence and accusations of matchfixing should not be made lightly. Please avoid making accusations against specific individuals unless you have substantial proof, or until further information is released. (0620 KST) |
On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game.
Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. 
The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7.
From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing.
I find that very odd.
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On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd.
The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled.
Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype.
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On January 22 2015 07:55 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd. The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled. Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype.
The NFL is responding. Here is there response, on Monday, about 12 hours after gametime.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/nfl-opens-patriots-deflated-football-probe-after-afc-championship-win-1.9821346
Has a Kespa spokesperson said anything?
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On January 22 2015 07:55 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd. The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled. Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype.
That's naive. I hate to keep bringing it up but the Davydenko issue was brought up by Playfair (a different online bookie) and he was investigated by the ATP regardless of it being an issue by a betting website.
It's also really naive to assume imply that this only came about because some guy wrote an angry email to Pinnacle about their bet.
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On January 22 2015 07:57 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 07:55 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd. The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled. Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype. The NFL is responding. Here is there response, on Monday, about 12 hours after gametime. http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/nfl-opens-patriots-deflated-football-probe-after-afc-championship-win-1.9821346Has a Kespa spokesperson said anything?
But the NFL had heard complaints about that throughout the season, and they only cared this time because it hit the national media, which only got really big because Belichick and Brady lied about not knowing about it after winning a game leading up to the Super Bowl, the biggest event for the NFL. It has very little to do with the "credibility" of the sport.
I mean, the crazy thing is NFL officials weighed the balls during halftime and already knew the balls were different. They apparently didn't inflate the balls to proper size or tell the Patriots to do it or warn anyone that something was wrong. My point is, their investigation is about PR, not credibility. There isn't something wonderful the NFL is doing that Kespa is not in terms of dealing with issues.
What you'd really want, and what I already said probably won't happen, is the identity of who bet. Was it San himself? Was it someone on StarTale-YoeFW? Was it someone in Kespa? Was it even someone in Korea? Until you get something like that, there's really nothing to stand on in terms of demanding an internal investigation or talking about "further corruption".
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After reading as much relevant info in this thread as I could, I wanna toss out my two cents.
I think the match wasn't fixed. San and Dark played a fair game. Someone with knowledge of Sans decreased practice time and sore wrists/shoulder told what I will assume is a group of bettors. With this information they determined Dark is a massive favorite and bet alot of money on it.
I think this is one of those cases of inside info bet line manipulation.
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On January 22 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 07:55 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd. The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled. Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype. That's naive. I hate to keep bringing it up but the Davydenko issue was brought up by Playfair (a different online bookie) and he was investigated by the ATP regardless of it being an issue by a betting website. It's also really naive to assume imply that this only came about because some guy wrote an angry email to Pinnacle about their bet.
But you're omitting that the investigation into Davydenko started a month after the match and took a year, after which he was cleared of wrongdoing.
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On January 22 2015 08:55 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote:On January 22 2015 07:55 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd. The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled. Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype. That's naive. I hate to keep bringing it up but the Davydenko issue was brought up by Playfair (a different online bookie) and he was investigated by the ATP regardless of it being an issue by a betting website. It's also really naive to assume imply that this only came about because some guy wrote an angry email to Pinnacle about their bet. But you're omitting that the investigation into Davydenko started a month after the match and took a year, after which he was cleared of wrongdoing.
Well if you're just saying that a response takes time sure I agree. I thought you meant KeSPA was just going to ignore the entire thing as not their problem.
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On January 22 2015 08:55 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote:On January 22 2015 07:55 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd. The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled. Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype. That's naive. I hate to keep bringing it up but the Davydenko issue was brought up by Playfair (a different online bookie) and he was investigated by the ATP regardless of it being an issue by a betting website. It's also really naive to assume imply that this only came about because some guy wrote an angry email to Pinnacle about their bet. But you're omitting that the investigation into Davydenko started a month after the match and took a year, after which he was cleared of wrongdoing.
So you agree there should be an investigation by Kespa, they should just start late and go slow?
You guys all think you're protecting San, when in fact what you are doing is enabling people to rig SC2.
This entire thread shows that people will attack even the right to speak about the issue, and that there is no expectation on the part of the sports body to respond.
If that doesn't invite corruption, I don't know what does.
So many of you are grasping at hope that everything is alright, some way, some how, its all ok. Its sad really. You guys are getting fleeced. Its cruel.
I don't think its right to let corruption stay in the shadows. It needs to be called out, and certainly the possibility of it needs to be discussed in places like this, at times like this.
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Canada13389 Posts
On January 22 2015 09:06 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 08:55 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote:On January 22 2015 07:55 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd. The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled. Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype. That's naive. I hate to keep bringing it up but the Davydenko issue was brought up by Playfair (a different online bookie) and he was investigated by the ATP regardless of it being an issue by a betting website. It's also really naive to assume imply that this only came about because some guy wrote an angry email to Pinnacle about their bet. But you're omitting that the investigation into Davydenko started a month after the match and took a year, after which he was cleared of wrongdoing. So you agree there should be an investigation by Kespa, they should just start late and go slow? You guys all think you're protecting San, when in fact what you are doing is enabling people to rig SC2. This entire thread shows that people will attack even the right to speak about the issue, and that there is no expectation on the part of the sports body to respond. If that doesn't invite corruption, I don't know what does. So many of you are grasping at hope that everything is alright, some way, some how, its all ok. Its sad really. You guys are getting fleeced. Its cruel. I don't think its right to let corruption stay in the shadows. It needs to be called out, and certainly the possibility of it needs to be discussed in places like this, at times like this.
I think being concerned is fine.
I think saying that KeSpa should investigate is fine.
But to assume San matchfixed is not alright.
I think a lot of people here don't really get KeSpa. If KeSpa is turning a blind eye its not starcraft that suffers alone, its all KeSpa, all KeSpa games etc.
KeSpa also doesn't usually make public statements until they are ready to. They will announce an investigation if and when there is enough information to warrant that investigation and they deem it reasonable to enter into such an investigation.
Keep that in mind. Also do keep in mind the only proof of anything so far is bet manipulation and its up to Pinnacle to provide that information to KeSpa, don't just outright assume KeSpa is going to jump on something they may or may not have enough information about.
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On January 22 2015 09:06 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 08:55 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote:On January 22 2015 07:55 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 07:43 dsousa wrote:On January 22 2015 07:17 coverpunch wrote:On January 22 2015 04:00 dsousa wrote:
Then they could release the replay from the match.
The point is, San isn't the only one under question here.
If the NFL or any major sporting organization had its credibility questioned in regards to fixing, they would step up immediately to refute and address the issue. They wouldn't allow fans and potential fans to think their sport was compromised.
No response, is in a way, the loudest response of all.
No response from kespa could mean this is a lot bigger than just one player.
They should be taking this as an opportunity to re-assure the fans and to crack down on further corruption. Make a strong showing that they won't allow this to happen.
To do that they need to resolve the issue.
Pinnacle has made a strong accusation.
What is the response?
Wut? The NFL is dealing with a ball problem right now and they're only looking into it because it's the week before the Super Bowl. There are other stories coming out now about manipulating balls over the season and in past years and the NFL didn't care before. It appears even this time, the Patriots' biggest problem isn't that they "cheated" but that they initially denied doing it, i.e. they lied. Even though the NFL measured the balls at halftime and already knew they were underinflated. There's not much to investigate here. San denied it and I don't think it's proper for Pinnacle to disclose the identity of bettors or other specifics about betting patterns, unless it turns out San himself or someone on the team was betting. No response could just mean no response. No need to picnic - after all, they cancelled the bet so nobody profited from this game. Don't you tell me when to picnic! I'll picnic at my discretion. The NFL is responding to a claim the air pressure in the ball was off in a game from Sunday, made by the Colts No one contends it affected the outcome of the game, yet the NFL is still jumping through hoops to retain the credibility of its sport. All that over the difference between 13psi and 11psi in a game that was 45-7. From a competitive standpoint, the controversy in PL was 1000x worse, yet the response is still nothing. I find that very odd. The response is nothing because this has nothing to do with Kespa or PL. It has to do with a betting website and a customer that complained about a bet and got it cancelled. Also, the NFL hasn't responded yet. They're obviously thinking of the best way to defuse this before the Super Bowl so it stops being a distraction to the hype. That's naive. I hate to keep bringing it up but the Davydenko issue was brought up by Playfair (a different online bookie) and he was investigated by the ATP regardless of it being an issue by a betting website. It's also really naive to assume imply that this only came about because some guy wrote an angry email to Pinnacle about their bet. But you're omitting that the investigation into Davydenko started a month after the match and took a year, after which he was cleared of wrongdoing. So you agree there should be an investigation by Kespa, they should just start late and go slow? You guys all think you're protecting San, when in fact what you are doing is enabling people to rig SC2. This entire thread shows that people will attack even the right to speak about the issue, and that there is no expectation on the part of the sports body to respond. If that doesn't invite corruption, I don't know what does. So many of you are grasping at hope that everything is alright, some way, some how, its all ok. Its sad really. You guys are getting fleeced. Its cruel. I don't think its right to let corruption stay in the shadows. It needs to be called out, and certainly the possibility of it needs to be discussed in places like this, at times like this.
No, I just said what there needs to be, which is something to go on, some kind of lead to follow. Dragging San in today and shaking him down, demanding to know who he's in cohoots with, seems wildly unfair and unproductive. I don't think the discussion so far has done much more than sully his reputation and probably add a lot of stress and bitterness to his young life, with no indication that he did anything more wrong than play a single game badly.
I'm concerned about match fixing and cheating, but you're talking about fighting corruption as though it were an extensive and pervasive problem in Kespa or SC2, which I think is exaggerated and hyperbolic. Take a couple deep breaths.
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Well, there's one case in WCS EU of attempted match fixing that got two players banned from the current season. During WoL there was an actual thrown game on ESV weekly that got two players suspended for several months. Last year in WCS AM there was the big stink about 'did Axion Crank throw a match so Axiom Alicia could advance?' that got a big public response from TotalBiscuit and Crank that I'm still not sure I buy. So that's 3 scandals in 3 different regions about fixing games.
Now, none of these case involved betting or a 3rd party. Except there's the entire Solar thing, which also revealed that this happens to a lot of players inside KeSPA in fact.
At the very least, this is an issue at the edges of the scene trying to get in. Or have they already found people willing to take money? That is unknown right now, but this is far from the first warning sign that SC2 could be vulnerable to this issue.
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Okay, on Swoopae's side, here's what I think:
First of all, what he has done was border-line slander. Fortunately, his intent was not malicious, but his accusation may have caused some personal injury to San (As a matter of fact, former CJ players Effort and Hydra were falsely accused of matchfixing by the CJ team especially Coach Park, which has heavily damaged the CJ team dynamic and compelled Effort to retire. Don't you see how awfully serious his claim of matchfixing is?). You think he doesn't deserve the ire from the community? He absolutely does with his very rude direct accusation against San, who had an extremely modest background and eventually became relevant as he is today. Granted, there were moments that the community were rude and made some personal attacks against him. But do they need to apologize for what they said, if San was actually indicted in match fixing? If anything, those personal attacks were more of a response to how Swoopae behaved more. Sure, Swoopae had eventually apologized and removed his twitter post, but some things in social media aren't forgotten. To me, it's extremely immature of him to demand an apologize when you can consider this whole fiasco a completely miscommunication. Unless these people were actually horrible dipshits and have committed personal damage against Swoopae, Swoopae should just let these written assaults against him slide and be a bigger man about it.
BUT to his credit, it's great that he chooses to be active and take the time to explain himself. As a matter of fact, it's nice to see the other side. I do have some disagreements though.
Swoopae talks a lot about the math, which shows that he knows what he is talking about. But how he arrives his conclusion is where things get really hairy. Sure, the numbers indicate that the betting has been heavily manipulated. That's great (for analysis sake, of course). But the next question is what is the cause for this?
The problem with Swoopae's conclusion is that he is basing on his arguments on the numbers and San's awful mistakes. His supporting arguments are observable, but they don't eliminate other possibilities such as someone close to San may have leaked information, which is what Swoopae has actually included as a possibility, a random troll who wants to ruin the website (very unlikely, but hey, this is the internet!), San actually physically suffering, etc. Furthermore, San has made a lot of stupid mistakes in other SC2 matches. Also, in BlizzCon, he was actually one of the weakest players there.
That's the problem with people like Swoopae. They can have all this data, but they are somewhat liberal with their critical thinking. If you look at legal causes or scientific articles, those pieces of literature always talk about how "compelling" your argument/hypothesis is. The argument must not only support your thesis but also discount any other alternatives. If you are going to make a very bold statement, then you must have a very well constructed and conservatively analyzed argument to back up your grand claim.
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The basic problem is a communication's problem.
on 2+2, any type of fix would be a match fix. They care about the fact that the match was fixed, not who was responsible for it. The betting part is what matters.
On TL, we mostly care only if San did it, cause it creates consequence for the game that the other possibilities don't.
Since we're using the same term, confusion ensues. That's why they think we're putting our heads in the sand because we wait for more info. And that's why they will come off as too hard in their conclusions any time they post here.
There's also a bunch of random insults, baits and misrepresentations on both sides, because you get cool points on internet for looking like you're right.
So, I solved the thread. Can we leave it at that until we get more information?
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On January 22 2015 12:07 Nebuchad wrote:
The basic problem is a communication's problem.
on 2+2, any type of fix would be a match fix. They care about the fact that the match was fixed, not who was responsible for it. The betting part is what matters.
On TL, we mostly care only if San did it, cause it creates consequence for the game that the other possibilities don't.
Since we're using the same term, confusion ensues. That's why they think we're putting our heads in the sand because we wait for more info. And that's why they will come off as too hard in their conclusions any time they post here.
There's also a bunch of random insults, baits and misrepresentations on both sides, because you get cool points on internet for looking like you're right.
So, I solved the thread. Can we leave it at that until we get more information?
Well said
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Ahhhh the sweet sweet taste of drama...finally!
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On January 19 2015 05:45 lemmata wrote: EffOrt recently dropped some major bombshells in a broadcast with former teammate  Iris. The two got very drunk (and the stream was restricted to ages 19+). Part 1: After EffOrt beat Flash to win the Korean Air OSL, he was planning to sign if CJ offered him a contract for 100,000,000 KRW/year. However, CJ was not as interested in making EffOrt happy after the merger with Hite (yet another fallout of the match-fixing scandal). Eventually, they agreed to a figure of 90,000,000 KRW/year. However, then CJ went ahead and leaked an article to the press that EffOrt was retiring. It is unclear if this was a negotiation tactic, but EffOrt's first retirement was at least semi-forced upon him as a cost-cutting measure. This reminds me of what happened to  JangBi when he was given a low-ball contract offer and went on a long losing streak at least in part because he was depressed and angry. Part 2: EffOrt says that his second retirement (SC2) was because he was unjustly suspected of match-fixing. He was apparently doing poorly against SC2 Protoss. The coaching staff and the scrubs on the team started suspecting both EffOrt and Hydra of match-fixing. EffOrt says they denied suspecting him but he knew what they were saying behind his back. It was serious enough that our man XellOs, retired from pro-gaming but still a CJ employee at the time, vigorously came to their defense. EffOrt says that his mother's health played a role, but the main reason that he retired was because he couldn't stand being suspected of match-fixing like that. EffOrt said that he was absolutely furious at Coach Park (formerly of SKT) for doing this to him and said that Coach Park shouldn't touch him if he had any sense. Apparently, XellOs immediately quit his job at CJ when EffOrt retired and Hydra left. The day after this broadcast, a sober EffOrt said that he was embarrassed to have shown himself getting so drunk, but that he doesn't take back anything he said about Coach Park. EffOrt said that Coach Park is an SOB and that he would stab him to death if he could. My Analysis: These are the far-reaching consequences of the match-fixing scandal. CJ was never a team that was super interested in winning. CJ had a team because CJ owns Ongamenet and Ongamenet needed to fill Proleague with enough teams. Its finances were strapped because of the forced merger with Hite Sparkyz (which was itself previously sponsored by Ongamenet). It didn't really have an incentive to support stars who did not have mass appeal (code: not good looking). Also, the match-fixing scandal seems to have made every player into a potential suspect and made it possible for teams to harass players into retirement if they wanted to save money. Zeus had previously told the true story of why Britney was removed from Hite immediately after the match-fixing scandal. In that story, the team had budget cuts and just needed to get rid of an ugly-looking gamer who wasn't good enough to compensate for his bad looks before merging with CJ. Zeus said that they internally accused Britney of match-fixing in order to obtain some sort of justification for moving him to Woongjin. Effort has received a lot of criticism on Afreeca for what he said about Coach Park, who has a great reputation in Korea, but somehow I get the feeling that what Effort claims isn't too far from the truth. The only real conclusion is this: FXXX the guys who participated in the match-fixing scandals. They ruined many careers besides just their own.
Worth reading, for those who haven't yet.
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These are very very very very serious allegations. TL should conduct its own independent investigation, perhaps by looking at all past games played by San and if possible betting payouts for those games.
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From the OP
San will either be exonerated, or evidence will come to light proving the allegations.
I think neither of that happening is more probable unfortunately, there always will be some doubts...
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On January 22 2015 10:00 Wuster wrote:
Well, there's one case in WCS EU of attempted match fixing that got two players banned from the current season. During WoL there was an actual thrown game on ESV weekly that got two players suspended for several months. Last year in WCS AM there was the big stink about 'did Axion Crank throw a match so Axiom Alicia could advance?' that got a big public response from TotalBiscuit and Crank that I'm still not sure I buy. So that's 3 scandals in 3 different regions about fixing games.
Now, none of these case involved betting or a 3rd party. Except there's the entire Solar thing, which also revealed that this happens to a lot of players inside KeSPA in fact.
At the very least, this is an issue at the edges of the scene trying to get in. Or have they already found people willing to take money? That is unknown right now, but this is far from the first warning sign that SC2 could be vulnerable to this issue.
Since the Solar case has been brought up quite a lot, I think it is important to note that it happened during a small foreign tournament, so obviously KeSPA players playing these tournaments get offered to throw the games because they're so much favored that you can gain a good amount on money by betting on their foreigner opponents. That doesn't mean that they often get offered to throw games inside KeSPA tournaments.
On January 22 2015 15:32 Loccstana wrote:
These are very very very very serious allegations. TL should conduct its own independent investigation, perhaps by looking at all past games played by San and if possible betting payouts for those games.
With all due respect to TL, I don't think they are competent, nor do they have the resources and the power, to conduct a serious investigation on this.
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EPT
