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United States7483 Posts
I'm concerned about the design choices of several of the units. The stats don't really matter, I'm convinced they can be balanced. The issue is that I see no function for these units in the game unless they are overpowered.
Consider the Cyclone: it's a mobile kiting unit. It is fast, with long range, and high single target DPS. The mobility and attacking while shooting function makes it exceptional at wearing down small forces and picking off units in the early game. Great: the problem is that other units fill the same role, like the hellion. The hellion is better at harassing worker lines, and is a more versatile unit with its hellbat transformation. the cyclone as designed is more of an anti-protoss unit: it has neither the splash or DPS to kill off speedlings, but hellions do. Protoss has no such response early game, and thus the cyclone will destroy everything Protoss. The unit therefore serves as an early game map control unit in the matchup: Protoss cannot move onto the map without bleeding units, so they have to stay at home behind forcefields in the early game.
The problem with that is that it means that toss has no early game aggression, and is still weak in the mid-game. Also the fact that early cyclone builds are committed to before scouting can inform a toss about them, meaning that toss has to assume cyclones until after they scout, so they have to play defensive early game.
If the cyclone's damage is nerfed so that it can't just murder protoss units, then it would take a concerted amount of them to take map control early on, and their function is neutered effectively, because terran already has a variety of tactics that do that just as well, like hellion drops, which force protoss to keep defense at home just by being on the map.
If this unit is balanced, it doesn't do anything needed, it needs to be overpowered as designed to be useful.
The same I fear is true of this new Protoss unit, the disruptor. Enemies can simply run away from it easily enough and then kill it instantly after it's attack fails. It serves no useful purpose as a harass because of how easy it is to escape. It's only function is to add to the protoss deathball during engagements by chasing down enemies and force them to run away or die, meaning their DPS is lowered briefly. This is an expensive function for a unit that will die pretty much immediately after, so the unit needs to be inexpensive for this to be useful. It also does nothing storms don't already do: AoE damage in a specific location to force splits or a disengage. Protoss has better harass options, especially with the new warp prism, and better AoE units that can be kept alive: toss units other than zealots are too expensive to sacrifice like that. Unless the unit is way too strong, it's design means it has no useful function.
New units shouldn't be added just for the sake of having new units, they need a function that doesn't require obscene strength to fulfill. The warhound was removed for just this reason: it's a marauder from the factory (fulfilled no new function) that was only used because it was overpowered compared to the marauder. The swarm host also did not fulfill a new role, it simply supplanted the role previously taken by brood lords by being exceptionally strong at it. It's no coincidence that it's pretty much the least popular unit in the game.
The same applies to the herc: it has no new role to fill, so it has to be too strong to have a function. If you make it balanced, you might as well use hellbats instead, or else the hellbat won't be used.
The Ravager has a role to fill and is an okay unit design, I'm concerned about the balance of the unit but have no complaints about the design of it. I don't think zerg should have forcefield crushing ability in the early game: their production and cost efficient units (not supply efficient, but zerglings and roaches are more cost efficient than zealots and stalkers by far) means that protoss needs forcefields early on in the game to hold aggression. By forcing the races to expand sooner than previously, you're spreading people out, making forcefields more mandatory. However, this is a balance concern, not a design concern, so this unit is fine for now.
I don't think lurkers are needed, they serve the same role as burrowed banelings for the most part, but I'm pretty okay with them.
I'm fairly concerned that most of the new units by design are either too hard to respond to, or too easy to respond to. The lurker in SC2 (you can already test it in the map editor or the HOTS campaign) is trivial to micro against, as is the disruptor (unless it gets a crazy speed boost, in which case it's probably OP). The Herc doesn't really have counter micro: it grapples you and is in your face already. The cyclone can be counter micro'd, but not before blink for protoss, as the damn things even murder stargate units. The only response is to turtle against it.
Compared to a better interaction, zerglings vs hellions: zerglings are faster with speed and can surround hellions, killing them easily. The hellions do enough damage in a line and are fast enough to do some effective kiting, making it expensive. Thus, hellions can hold map control briefly, but the zerg can just shut them down once they decide they need to without too much risk.
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On November 21 2014 13:24 Headnoob wrote:
Is there any other dev out there as talented at saying so little in so many words as blizzard?
Yes there're plenty of that. Just watch a White House press conference or an interview with a tv show's producers and actors about the plot.
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Disappointing. They say both "hey nothing is balanced because we're trying crazy things!" When it comes to units and "we're not gonna change too much" when it comes to eco. Put your money where your mouth is and look at some real changes.
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What I read between the lines is:
Dear online community,
I know this goes against your very nature as online being, but if you don't mind, please try to muster a minimal amount of common sense before you spew nonsense onto the forums. The idiocy we are forced to read for many hours a week is just getting us all down, and makes us lose hope in humanity. We believe that you are not all actually stupid deep down, so with some basic rational thinking on your behalf maybe we will be able to get some useful feedback that will not make us want to kill ourselves, or you, or both.
Just a thought.
Good luck and have fun,
David Kim 
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On November 21 2014 15:03 Lobotomist wrote:
Disappointing. They say both "hey nothing is balanced because we're trying crazy things!" When it comes to units and "we're not gonna change too much" when it comes to eco. Put your money where your mouth is and look at some real changes.
There're a million ways to balance. For example, on a U-shaped map where two spawning spots are very far from each other by ground but close by air, it would be a tremendous buff for all air units and drops but a nerf for normal ground units. BC, Broodlorad and Tempest's low mobility is no longer a critical weakness as they can reach the enemy bases straight out of the production buildings while ground units have to travel a long way.
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On November 21 2014 15:08 Cascade wrote:What I read between the lines is: Show nested quote +Dear online community,
I know this goes against your very nature as online being, but if you don't mind, please try to muster a minimal amount of common sense before you spew nonsense onto the forums. The idiocy we are forced to read for many hours a week is just getting us all down, and makes us lose hope in humanity. We believe that you are not all actually stupid deep down, so with some basic rational thinking on your behalf maybe we will be able to get some useful feedback that will not make us want to kill ourselves, or you, or both.
Just a thought.
Good luck and have fun,
David Kim
Sounds like a good sum up !
Or, in even fewer words: "Chill the fuck down people, it's only an alpha."
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On November 21 2014 16:52 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 15:08 Cascade wrote:What I read between the lines is: Dear online community,
I know this goes against your very nature as online being, but if you don't mind, please try to muster a minimal amount of common sense before you spew nonsense onto the forums. The idiocy we are forced to read for many hours a week is just getting us all down, and makes us lose hope in humanity. We believe that you are not all actually stupid deep down, so with some basic rational thinking on your behalf maybe we will be able to get some useful feedback that will not make us want to kill ourselves, or you, or both.
Just a thought.
Good luck and have fun,
David Kim Sounds like a good sum up ! Or, in even fewer words: "Chill the fuck down people, it's only an alpha."
Yet the designs of many new units are already a disappointment. They're overlapping with existing units with no new role to fill.
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Btw: the disruptor actually gets faster before discharging, which might actually be cool and useful.
And: the cyclone does not auto attack. As far as I know you need to lock on every target manually. The basic idea is not bad, but it needs a good cooldown on the ability.
Just needs some more testing and tweaking like everything else.
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How is Protoss getting nerfed, considering the absolutely insane AOE potential they have as LotV stands now? Unlike T and Z they can still go for a deathball and absolutely steamroll anything with colossus/ht/disruptor/archon and still have safety nets like the MSC.
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Disruptor can be good vs mech terran to break up siege lines.. assuming mech v P is possible in LOTV... like storm could do in BW
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On November 21 2014 18:00 Ketch wrote:
Disruptor can be good vs mech terran to break up siege lines.. assuming mech v P is possible in LOTV... like storm could do in BW
An interesting question is how invincible units (immortal, disruptor) work in terms of attack priority. I assume the units keep shooting at the invincible units until the effect wears off? It does promote micro, but I wouldn't call that a very visible kind of micro.
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On November 21 2014 18:15 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 18:00 Ketch wrote:
Disruptor can be good vs mech terran to break up siege lines.. assuming mech v P is possible in LOTV... like storm could do in BW An interesting question is how invincible units (immortal, disruptor) work in terms of attack priority. I assume the units keep shooting at the invincible units until the effect wears off? It does promote micro, but I wouldn't call that a very visible kind of micro.
The built in "invincible" tag of the editor stops units from attacking the invincible unit.
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On November 21 2014 18:15 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2014 18:00 Ketch wrote:
Disruptor can be good vs mech terran to break up siege lines.. assuming mech v P is possible in LOTV... like storm could do in BW An interesting question is how invincible units (immortal, disruptor) work in terms of attack priority. I assume the units keep shooting at the invincible units until the effect wears off? It does promote micro, but I wouldn't call that a very visible kind of micro.
My guess is that the invincible units can't be targeted until it wears off.
If you remember the WOL campaign, invincible units can't be targeted. Example is the mothership in Safe Haven before you destroy the nexus and Kerrigan in the Mobeius factor.
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No I think you keep targetting the Immortal, since it's essentially a 400 + shield buff, not an Invincible tag.
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On November 20 2014 11:28 necrosexy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2014 11:13 SonGoku wrote:
David pls, just give back reaver and vulture. It isnt that hard vulture and widow mine? that's not happening
Vulture ofc replaces widow mine...
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On November 21 2014 17:53 ChromeBallz wrote:
How is Protoss getting nerfed, considering the absolutely insane AOE potential they have as LotV stands now? Unlike T and Z they can still go for a deathball and absolutely steamroll anything with colossus/ht/disruptor/archon and still have safety nets like the MSC.
Isn't viper designed to snipe all the colossi? T should have a similar unit to disassemble a deathball.
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who else thinks that...
...the cyclone would be way more cooler if it dealt much more damage but had to stand still to do so instead of being able to kite, while having the kite mode for free (without the charging up time) but it would then deal much less damage? That would emphasize micro much more while still being very different from the siege tank because it would have a way different application and skillset.
...the disruptor being scrapped and his overload (without the invicibility) was a DT upgrade. It would leave the DT uncloaked for a short period after the overload or right before it hits. You still had the utility to close in from cloak but it would be counterplayable.
..the shuttle should have a visible animation (mb a beam) when it loads in units from range.
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I've been thinking that Blizzard should give back the reaper's grenade, adding it in the lab as an upgrade and tremendously increasing its damage by each level of weaponry upgrade. It means though one single reaper is just an opening unit to scout and harass, a bunch of 3/3 reapers in late game is able to blow up the enemy's static defense and base in seconds. Automatic self-healing could be scraped.
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Some economic suggestions are not radical suggestions. All that really needs to be accomplished is a similar tweaking of an equally arbitrary paramater. You could retain or increase the original mineral count and decrease the patch count, it would accomplish your goal (DK) without squeezing the casual with the base treadmill. Also, any smart tweaking of the SCV stats regarding the movement speed, mining rate, dropoff point, or even correlating the mineral animation to gathering rate could be applied to apply diminishing return to the saturation of a base, accomplishing, once again, your goal of spreading out the area. But rather than make it draconic and punishing since all your other bases are mined out when you lose your good base, you get more opportunity to make comebacks since they can retreat and probably use those workers, albeit less efficiently. It's worth kicking around in your sandbox. Also should make expanding cheaper and more fleshed out if we're going to commit. New macro abilities to facilitate expansion for all 3 races?
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There's a lot of talk about Protoss mobility issues over in the Designated Balance Discussion Thread. LOTV is changing up how many expansions players need to keep track of, but as of right now it's not giving Protoss many (any?) new options for playing a harass-intensive 5 base vs 5 base style game, which is like... a crazy huge deal.
If Bbyong's games vs PartinG and Zest on King Sejong are a precursor of what happens to Protoss in LOTV, I don't want the inevitable solution to be "make Terran not be able to do that," because "that" in this case is "showing off godly multitasking." I want the solution to be "make the Protoss be able to respond in kind." I would hope that most posters here agree.
So what should Blizzard do? I'm throwing this out there because right now they haven't done or said anything on the subject, and while that doesn't mean they don't have ideas, it also doesn't mean they do have ideas.
One suggestion that gets brought up a lot is getting rid of/revamping the Colossus while buffing Gateway units. Would that solve all of our problems, though? Would buffed Zealots on a 5 base economy be interesting to watch, or, for that matter, skill intensive to use? They're 1A now, they'll be 1A in LOTV, regardless of how much stronger they are... unless they become more responsive, get a new ability, something. Maybe buffed Stalkers + HT would be interesting enough?
Is anyone thinking about this? Does anyone have ideas?
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EPT
