EPTFunny you brought up that game. I wanted health bar off this game so bad. If it's gonna be tempests dancing around for 30 minutes at least let me watch them in all their beauty!
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[D] LotV Economy Discussion - Page 19
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
Funny you brought up that game. I wanted health bar off this game so bad. If it's gonna be tempests dancing around for 30 minutes at least let me watch them in all their beauty! User was warned for this post | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On November 12 2014 22:17 turtles wrote: FWIW I created another mod which lets you practice the new economy and resource changes. The mod is called "SALT LOTV economy". Which is just a modification of the mod SALT which lets you reset the map so you can test things over and over without having to reload the map every time. * chose a map * select "play with mod" * search for SALT and both mods will show up * invite another player or add an AI player (needs 2 or more players) * click on any racial icon at the spawn location * whenever you want, go to menu->restart and the game will be reset to the begining. That way if you want to muck around in the early game exploring how the races work with the new changes you can do so without having to spend half your time waiting for the map to load. You can do it instantly. The rest of the features are the same as the origional mod. If you want to learn more about it you can read the FAQ www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/297534-mod-save-and-load-in-multiplayer?page=5#85 Oh my God... First, big thanks to you for making this so we can actually test that horror. I tested a CC first into 3 rax Medivacs like you would in TvP. I think the benchmarks speak for themselves. ![[image loading]](http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/344392Timings.jpg) On LotV you can probably max on Roaches by 9 minutes and a bit more (at 9'30 I have 45 0/0 Speedroaches with a badly executed gasless 4 Queens into 2b mass Roaches, which is what... the double? triple of what you can have currently?). The economic growth is absolutely ridiculous. You have no time for anything. It feels like you lose control over the pace of the game; it's simply way too fast (if they wanted to make the famous "casuals" run away yelling, no better way to achieve this). No way there is a proper midgame with that. I would be very surprised if the game was anything but 2b/3b all-ins in that state. When you start building your fourth you're already max with your main empty anyway... Everything snowballs so fast that whoever gets behind is likely dead. Any opening disadvantage would probably result in massive, irrecoverable supply deficits a few minutes later. This 12 workers change sounds like a massive disaster. No way it promotes action all over the map. How could you even be incited to expand beyond a third when you have to systematically face the gigantic wall of a 12' max on any low-tech composition... It simply does everything problematic in a faster, uncontrollable way, when of course the goal should be the exact opposite. The LotV economy is like a stimmed version of HotS one. It's a Formula 1 with space rocket boosters. No one can drive this without crashing into the wall sooner or later. There's also no point designing "harassment units" (which is a bad idea to begin with, since it results in unidimensional units like the Oracle instead of versatile stuff like the Blink Stalker, Medivac drops or Mutalisks) in this new environement. The opposing player just won't care. I want to see the face of a Protoss who invests 300 gas (lol...) and X seconds of robo time in a Disruptor, raises his fists after he killed 15 SCVs, only to find 50 Marines 25 Marauders 15 Vikings ramming his third 2 minutes later. With the LotV economy, whoever focuses on his macro will always come on top against the guy who was too cute and simply didn't make enough stuff to stand on the battlefield at 12-14 minutes. Please leave it at 6 workers and decrease the rhythm at which the economy grows by implementing sharp diminishing returns after the 8th worker. Currently it's ~42/42/18 mineral per minute for the 1-8th, 9-16th, 17-24h workers on a mineral line. Why not try a formula like 42/25/15? Changing the economy is critical, but certainly not to make every bad aspect of the game much worse. You have it backwards. I played "Fast maps" mods in BW for a long time. They removed so much finesse from the game. This is what the LotV economy is. A fast map mod of the current SC2 economy. The sheer power of a massive economy and production invariably makes the game more hollow. The opposite is needed. More time, more control, less stuff so fast. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
the double? triple of what you can have currently? Remember that the times are not the same, starting with 12 workers is the same as starting 1:30 into the game, so you need to add 1:30 to your table of timings to get the "equivalent" HotS timings. But for the most part i have gotten the same gameplay you have experienced, the timings are all pretty messed up (?), i really don't know how to express it, it really needs to be experienced. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On November 14 2014 07:09 DoubleReed wrote: Most of the time all you're doing is making workers until you have 12 anyway. How did you get such massive discrepancies in your timings? If all you do is make workers until 12, it should be more-or-less a time-shift with some error for supply differences. It should not compound. Got me thinking. Doesnt this 12worker start also mean all races gets their macrobooster later? | ||
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Jerom
Netherlands588 Posts
On November 14 2014 07:09 DoubleReed wrote: Most of the time all you're doing is making workers until you have 12 anyway. How did you get such massive discrepancies in your timings? If all you do is make workers until 12, it should be more-or-less a time-shift with some error for supply differences. It should not compound. So even in the most simplistic assumptions (since economic growth is exponential), 6 workers extra produce 252 minerals per minute. After 10 minutes, you have gathered 2520 minerals extra, which is something like 50 supply. These massive discrepancies aren't so surprising. Also the economic growth is kinda expontential. So that means that if you start with more workers, you will be getting your 2nd and 3rd CC faster, which means you'll get to produce more workers faster, increasing the discrepancie even more. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On November 14 2014 07:33 Jerom wrote: So even in the most simplistic assumptions (since economic growth is exponential), 6 workers extra produce 252 minerals per minute. After 10 minutes, you have gathered 2520 minerals extra, which is something like 50 supply. These massive discrepancies aren't so surprising. Also the economic growth is kinda expontential. So that means that if you start with more workers, you will be getting your 2nd and 3rd CC faster, which means you'll get to produce more workers faster, increasing the discrepancie even more. Let's say you don't do anything for the first 90 seconds of the game and then start playing. All your timings will be 90 seconds behind, they won't grow exponentially more behind the longer you're playing. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
just make it 6 or at max 8-9 worker at start and make it 10-12 worker saturation per base so that more expos actually mean something and "deathball turtling" on 3 bases can be punished by just going 6 base and actually killing the deathball player just with masses of units. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On November 14 2014 07:33 Jerom wrote: So even in the most simplistic assumptions (since economic growth is exponential), 6 workers extra produce 252 minerals per minute. After 10 minutes, you have gathered 2520 minerals extra, which is something like 50 supply. These massive discrepancies aren't so surprising. Also the economic growth is kinda expontential. So that means that if you start with more workers, you will be getting your 2nd and 3rd CC faster, which means you'll get to produce more workers faster, increasing the discrepancie even more. You haven't thought this through. If Player A does nothing but build up to 12 workers for 1:30 and Player B starts at 12 workers but doesn't do anything until 1:30, then they're in the exact same position. There's no difference between the two. It's a time shift. Not exponential. It's not 'six workers extra,' it's just '1:30 forward in time.' | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On November 14 2014 06:59 TheDwf wrote: Terrifying results. So much resources tied up as "fixed assets" in army supply, at a time when you are forced into taking risks to maintain your income rate. The bigger the armies, the more "fixed resources" are at stake when you go into battles. Blizzard's idea that the early game is boring is completely backwards. The ratio between army value and income rate benefits from being kept low. It means battles can take place without there being enormous amount of risk tied to them. You risk a moderate amount of resources in relation to how much you earn. If you keep inflating supplies, and they reach 200 even faster, then army supply will eat away at worker supply at an even faster rate than we see today. As a result even more risk becomes involved in the big deathball battle, not less. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On November 14 2014 07:57 DoubleReed wrote: You clearly haven't thought this through. If Player A does nothing but build up to 12 workers for 1:30 and Player B starts at 12 workers but doesn't do anything until 1:30, then they're in the exact same position. There's no difference between the two. It's a time shift. Not exponential. It's not 'six workers extra,' it's just '1:30 forward in time.' But of course the economy changes aren't just a time shift, which might explain the anomalies in TheDwf's benchmarks. Not to be distrustful, -- I'm sure TheDwf is a diligent person, but there is a chance that his builds don't exactly align. Since the game has changed you can't just play your current 3CC build and expect it to be optimal, some smaller adjustments might be needed. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On November 14 2014 08:03 Grumbels wrote: But of course the economy changes aren't just a time shift, which might explain the anomalies in TheDwf's benchmarks. Not to be distrustful, -- I'm sure TheDwf is a diligent person, but there is a chance that his builds don't exactly align. Since the game has changed you can't just play your current 3CC build and expect it to be optimal, some smaller adjustments might be needed. Please explain the difference between Player A and Player B in my example. | ||
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TronJovolta
United States323 Posts
On November 13 2014 06:54 spoonmaster wrote: Combining this with the fact that gateway units are weak and the fact that warp-ins now take longer only exacerbates the problem with Protoss trying to fight in different places and defend 3rds. To align with Blizzard's new design direction of avoiding deathballs and encouraging skirmishes and microable units, I hope that Blizzard will consider strengthening gateway units or making a new fighting gateway unit to help alleviate this problem. Less warp-ins, less photon overcharge, more powerful gateway units that players can show their talent with! What? Gateway units are already the most powerful in the game. Perhaps they have the least utility, but they are certainly the strongest. I could only imagine trying to kite and split vs a Protoss deathball as Terran with even more powerful units... | ||
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TronJovolta
United States323 Posts
On November 14 2014 06:58 mishimaBeef wrote: " I love RTS with all my heart and turned off Life / Classic game just couldn't watch." Funny you brought up that game. I wanted health bar off this game so bad. If it's gonna be tempests dancing around for 30 minutes at least let me watch them in all their beauty! User was warned for this post Why on earth was he warned for this post? lmfao. | ||
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Forestwind1
United States5 Posts
On November 14 2014 08:08 DoubleReed wrote: Please explain the difference between Player A and Player B in my example. Depending on the chosen build, and whether worker production is halted Or not for a faster building, the supply depot, pylon, overlord timing also changes things a bit. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On November 14 2014 06:59 TheDwf wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 12 2014 22:17 turtles wrote: FWIW I created another mod which lets you practice the new economy and resource changes. The mod is called "SALT LOTV economy". Which is just a modification of the mod SALT which lets you reset the map so you can test things over and over without having to reload the map every time. * chose a map * select "play with mod" * search for SALT and both mods will show up * invite another player or add an AI player (needs 2 or more players) * click on any racial icon at the spawn location * whenever you want, go to menu->restart and the game will be reset to the begining. That way if you want to muck around in the early game exploring how the races work with the new changes you can do so without having to spend half your time waiting for the map to load. You can do it instantly. The rest of the features are the same as the origional mod. If you want to learn more about it you can read the FAQ www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/297534-mod-save-and-load-in-multiplayer?page=5#85 Oh my God... First, big thanks to you for making this so we can actually test that horror. I tested a CC first into 3 rax Medivacs like you would in TvP. I think the benchmarks speak for themselves. On LotV you can probably max on Roaches by 9 minutes and a bit more (at 9'30 I have 45 0/0 Speedroaches with a badly executed gasless 4 Queens into 2b mass Roaches, which is what... the double? triple of what you can have currently?). The economic growth is absolutely ridiculous. You have no time for anything. It feels like you lose control over the pace of the game; it's simply way too fast (if they wanted to make the famous "casuals" run away yelling, no better way to achieve this). No way there is a proper midgame with that. I would be very surprised if the game was anything but 2b/3b all-ins in that state. When you start building your fourth you're already max with your main empty anyway... Everything snowballs so fast that whoever gets behind is likely dead. Any opening disadvantage would probably result in massive, irrecoverable supply deficits a few minutes later. This 12 workers change sounds like a massive disaster. No way it promotes action all over the map. How could you even be incited to expand beyond a third when you have to systematically face the gigantic wall of a 12' max on any low-tech composition... It simply does everything problematic in a faster, uncontrollable way, when of course the goal should be the exact opposite. The LotV economy is like a stimmed version of HotS one. It's a Formula 1 with space rocket boosters. No one can drive this without crashing into the wall sooner or later. There's also no point designing "harassment units" (which is a bad idea to begin with, since it results in unidimensional units like the Oracle instead of versatile stuff like the Blink Stalker, Medivac drops or Mutalisks) in this new environement. The opposing player just won't care. I want to see the face of a Protoss who invests 300 gas (lol...) and X seconds of robo time in a Disruptor, raises his fists after he killed 15 SCVs, only to find 50 Marines 25 Marauders 15 Vikings ramming his third 2 minutes later. With the LotV economy, whoever focuses on his macro will always come on top against the guy who was too cute and simply didn't make enough stuff to stand on the battlefield at 12-14 minutes. Please leave it at 6 workers and decrease the rhythm at which the economy grows by implementing sharp diminishing returns after the 8th worker. Currently it's ~42/42/18 mineral per minute for the 1-8th, 9-16th, 17-24h workers on a mineral line. Why not try a formula like 42/25/15? Changing the economy is critical, but certainly not to make every bad aspect of the game much worse. You have it backwards. I played "Fast maps" mods in BW for a long time. They removed so much finesse from the game. This is what the LotV economy is. A fast map mod of the current SC2 economy. The sheer power of a massive economy and production invariably makes the game more hollow. The opposite is needed. More time, more control, less stuff so fast. Good analysis here, showing further why the current changes could turn abysmal. I wish the seriously reconsider their approach, crazy fast exponential growth is definitely not what SC2 needs. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On November 14 2014 08:03 Grumbels wrote: But of course the economy changes aren't just a time shift, which might explain the anomalies in TheDwf's benchmarks. Not to be distrustful, -- I'm sure TheDwf is a diligent person, but there is a chance that his builds don't exactly align. Since the game has changed you can't just play your current 3CC build and expect it to be optimal, some smaller adjustments might be needed. Builds need to be changed, new units have to be taken into account (and we still have no idea of what they'll actually be in the beta), new maps too, other changes to existing units and game mechanics, and who knows what else. But if some people want to start freaking out months before the beta, based on incomplete (and unsure) data, just because getting everything 2mn earlier seems to be the worst thing ever from their tests of an unknown game state... sure, why not. Sounds to me more like people whining for the sake of whining. We can take guesses and have doubts about some things, but until the beta is here (with new unknown changes) and we can *actually* test them, presenting any 'conclusions' as absolute facts is just stupid. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On November 14 2014 08:56 TronJovolta wrote: Why on earth was he warned for this post? lmfao. He's posted that same thing like fifty times over the last week, in every conceivable thread and even made a new thread for it (that got closed). | ||
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