Some months are more chaotic than others. September was one such month, with almost every player suffering agonizing defeat at one point or another. Although August had, for the most part, a fairly clear-cut list of players making waves, September saw all kinds of players jump up and down between championships and awkward eliminations. A few players retained their consistency, and you'll find them at the "top" of the ranking (now sorted from 10-1 instead of 1-10 in accordance with popular demand). Others had... unfortunate drop-offs and look like they won't be returning to the top of the world for some time. With Blizzcon approaching and SPL not back until next year, things are about to quiet down significantly, and there is no telling what form some players will be in now that there are no more leagues to play in.
Things were significantly less interesting on the foreigner front, with very few upsets taking place in the realm of the non-Koreans. WCS EU and NA played out roughly in accordance with last month's Power Rank. For this reason, the Best of the Rest list is both brief and mostly unchanged this time around.
With that said, onto the Power Rank! As always, there are a few things to think about when reading this:
The Power Rank focuses most on the month pertains to, but also takes past results into account
The Power Rank takes into account both results, the difficulty of opponents faced, and how good a player looked - both in victory and defeat.
A player's placement on the Power Rank does not suggest that the player is better or worse than a higher ranked player in head-to-head. This ranking is an overall appraisal of a player, not an attempt to answer the question ”Who beats who?”
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Taeja
Right up until late August, Taeja looked like one of the best players in the world (as usual). Elimination from WCS America (as usual) changed that and raised a lot of questions about where Taeja is at the moment. Beating Jaedong and losing narrowly to Hyun in the Winners' Match made it seem like he would still inevitably make it to the quarterfinals, until he found himself dismantled by Pigbaby (as usual). Three series in all of September isn't enough for me to kick Taeja out of the Power Rank completely with how he looked for most of the year, but I'm cautiously pessimistic about his chances with Blizzcon approaching.
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Rain
After an impeccable August, Rain had a serious drop-off in September. Eliminated from all three tournaments he played in (KeSPA Cup against Bomber, WECG against Yonghwa and GSL against Zest) last month and looking very off in the process isn't a very convincing way to begin one's stint as a free agent. None of Rain's losses would be significant enough on their own, but a player priding himself on consistency over long stretches of time and impeccable safe play in all situations to crash like that is both disappointing and worrying.
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herO
herO really is quite an unfortunate individual. After his two IEM championships, he has seen his fair share of defeats. The most notable was IEM Katowice and the $0 he received for second place, but the dual losses in KeSPA Cup and Dreamhack Stockholm must have stung as well. In both tournaments, herO defeated players that seemed like legitimate championship contenders before losing out in somewhat brutal fashion. Beating Sorry, Bomber and Flash would be an impressive weekend for anyone, if only the KeSPA Cup hadn't concluded with herO being absolutely destroyed by Zest. Wins against Sacsri, Hyun and Life would have been impressive if herO hadn't been shut down by the fourth Korean Zerg he had to face in Solar.
It's hard to say that herO did anything but well in September, but it's also hard to say that he deserves being placed any higher than eighth place among players who either came off championships or had individual leagues to play in.
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Flash
Like Rain, Flash had a rough time making it through the month of September. After racking up the most impressive 1-month stretch of any player, perhaps ever, he evened out the scores by suffering elimination from the GSL at the hands of soO and DRG, dropping out of the KeSPA Cup against herO (albeit in the semifinals) and experiencing slight turbulence against players he would have stomped all over in August - Yonghwa and Heart.
Flash will be able to live on the merits of his August streak and the fact that he now has a premier championship to his name for months, but as Flash's momentum drops off, so does my faith in his abilities.
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Cure
Cure had a great showing at his first ever overseas tournament, making it to the finals of Red Bull Washington before being promptly shut down by Bomber. On his way there, qualifiers and all, Cure put together one of the most impressive runs anyone has ever in what was essentially "one" tournament. However, the one-two punch in his gut of losing to both Bomber and Innovation in high-stakes offline matches hurt his credibility somewhat, and the follow-up of triple losses to Sora, Stats and Dear unfortunately destroyed the image of Cure as the player on his way to one-upping Maru.
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Solar
With his championship at Dreamhack Stockholm, Solar joins a growing line of players having beaten soO in a finals setting. The finals, but also the tournament as a whole, was a good representation of where Solar stands right now. He's unappreciated, being regarded as not much more than "one among many" in the stacked line-up that gathered in Stockholm. He's smart, often coming out on top of situations where other Zergs might fail because he thinks one step further. He lacks a distinct weakness, having ironed out the flaws in his ZvZ that haunted him a few months earlier and maintaining his calm under pressure. His quarterfinals defeat against Cure in the GSL was a setback, but it's hard to deny that Solar is worthy of being called a top Zerg at this point in time.
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Bomber
If this were a ranking of the players best giving their sponsors back for helping them out, Bomber would be the undisputed #1 (watch him chug an entire can of Red Bull after winning Red Bull's tournament and name a sponsor that wouldn't love him). Bomber played in three tournaments in September, and walked out either happy with his results or a winner all three times. He won Red Bull Washington in mostly convincing by going a combined 11-2 against Cure, Trap, DRG and Polt, with the only losses coming from Polt. This would be impressive enough on its own, but it's also worth mentioning that Bomber had flown over to Korea a week earlier to crush Rain in the KeSPA Cup.
Bomber's knack for doing what he wants rather than abide by the restraints of the metagame carried him through against the SKT Protoss, who was helpless to stop his SCV pulls and unorthodox builds. He did go on to lose to herO with a 1-3 scoreline, but the championship he secured a mere week later more than made up for that loss. With the caliber of opponents he faced in Washington and Seoul, his advancement from the WCS AM Ro16 seems like a mere footnote, despite the fact that he defeated both Jim and Check to make it through.
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Innovation
Not long ago, Innovation once again making the GSL finals would have been a far-fetched and strange prediction to make. Although the Acer Terran made waves in the foreign scene partly by dominating team leagues and partly by beheading foreigners everywhere as if he were a malfunctioning and angry guillotine, Innovation rarely looked like the player we watched with awe as he destroyed the Korean scene in mid-2013. The capacity for unrelenting aggression was there, but not the power that allowed him to bypass the normal rules of play and beat anyone with strategies and builds his opponents knew were coming.
Innovation still isn't that. But despite the flaws in his play that still occasionally force him out of tournaments early and see him drop against "weaker" players, Innovation is back in the GSL finals. In the grand scheme of things, he deserves a certain amount of respect for reaching the top after falling from it once. In his victories against DRG and Cure he displayed both dominance and perseverence, and it seems like Innovation has traded the dominant but flawed player he once was for another - less dominant, granted - more complete form. Don't be surprised when he beats soO in the finals.
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soO
Outside finals, soO is the best player in the world. He has done his very best to prove this for a long time, just as I have done my best to deny it, but by now it is essentially undeniable. Throughout the four GSLs he has made the finals in and the Dreamhack where he looked like a champion right up until he lost the finals, there have been very few times when soO has not looked nearly invincible.
But for a player who so epitomizes standard and essentially flawless solid play, it is always difficult to break through into the public eye and receive the recognition one deserves. And despite soO's occasional CatZ-driven games with proxery hatcheries and nydus plays, the SKT Zerg never seems to really shine and display the kind of blazing skill that brought our eyes to Life or Maru in 2012 and 2013, respectively. soO injects flawlessly, plays his games out in the strongest style of macro Zerg there is, and wins because he has no weaknesses. He doesn't need the flair.
Outside finals, there is no player on the planet better than soO. But unfortunately, Starcraft is a game played when it matters. It's in the finals the true champions are separated from those who would stumble on the finish line, where the Nesteas rise above the Incas. soO may be nearly invincible most of the time, but he has a crippling weakness in his mindset and his mentality that makes it impossible for me to call him the undisputed best in all scenarios. He isn't at #2 because I want to mock his misfortune or make a Kong joke, but because he's a player who more than anyone else collapses when it truly matters. Until that changes, soO can never be the player.
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Zest
In many ways, Zest is everything that soO isn't. Indomitable when it matters most, clutch in situations where others might choke but first and foremost a champion. Following up his second place at IEM Toronto with a run through the KeSPA Cup - defeating WCS NA champion Pigbaby, 2013 WCS Champion sOs, GSL S2 champion Classic and two-time IEM champion herO - Zest quickly dispelled doubts in his abilities. Although he lost the face-off against Flash in Toronto, him playing against a teammate (who is supposedly unbeatable in in-house TvP) in his worst match-up makes me willing to chalk that up to teamkill magic and the momentum Flash had going.
Perhaps most impressive of all was Zest's absolute annihilation of Rain. I'm not just talking about one top-tier Protoss beating another top-tier Protoss through slightly better planning and fortunate engagements, either. The quarterfinals between Zest and the SKT ace was a display in how to dominate PvP. With the exception of a few short moments, Rain never looked like he was going to take the series, and Zest drove that point home as thoroughly as possible.
Zest did meet his eventual demise against soO in the semifinals, dropping from a 3-1 lead to a shocking 3-4 elimination. This means that the #1 and #2 spots of this month are, for the most part, toss-ups. Zest comes out ahead due to his championship and the absolute dominance he displayed in dispatching five of the world's premier Protoss players, but he doesn't sit safely on the throne.
Best of the Rest
by peanuts
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Snute
Yes, Snute is still the best foreigner in the world. With a 2nd place finish at WEC late last month, Snute showed yet again that he was capable of taking the best players in the world to task. Though he’s had a slight dropoff recently, his overall form is still at the top of foreigners. A Ro4 finish at DH Moscow brought him ever closer to his goal of finally taking home his second Premier title. However, Snute does find himself in a precarious position for the best foreigner. After a subpar finish at DH Stockholm, Snute is now dependent on others’ failures to guarantee his spot at Blizzcon.
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Bunny
Yep, the other Liquid boy takes second place this time around. The Danish Terran continues to show strong results across tournaments, continuously delivering results in an environment where most of his peers fail to do so, both online and offline. Taking 1st place in his Ro16 group, Bunny finds himself flying the foreigner flag in WCS EU, preparing to face San - one of the toughest opponents possible - in the Ro8. The Liquid Terran also had a decent-but-not-great finish at DH Stockholm, landing in the Ro16 where he put up a good fight before being eliminated by the eventual champion, Solar.
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Scarlett
The Canadian Zerg has finally left Korea to begin playing in tournaments again. After an unsuccessful run at IEM Toronto, Scarlett has come back swinging. In WCS, she would 2-0 her group, advancing to the Ro8. In her match against Violet, she would 2-0 the Immigrant Zerg in a display of brilliant ZvZ, a return to form in what was once her best matchup. At RedBull DC, the streak of high level play would continue. After a tense, janky set against PartinG, featuring some of the strangest builds seen in Starcraft, she would go on to face Cure and Polt. Though she lost 2-1 to both players, all 6 games were intense macro fests that showed her skill and future potential. The only way Scarlett can get to Blizzcon is to win it all in WCS, which would make her the first foreigner to win a WCS season. This is do or die for the Acer Zerg.
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Sen
After winning Taiwan Open, one of the most stacked tournaments ever to be won by a non-Korean player, placing 3rd/4th in GPL is certainly a step down. It's difficult to argue that Sen isn't still one of the best foreigners, but in the absence of real results in September and given the inherent lack of visibility the Taiwanese and Chinese scenes suffer from it's also difficult to make a fair argument for Sen above any of the above three. Putting Sen at 4th here is largely a nod to the three players placed above him for performing well recently, but don't be surprised to see Sen back on top when he gets another chance to show off his skills to the world.
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Huk
After years of “decent” play, it seems that the one time foreign hope is starting to get back into shape. HuK’s recent run began in the summer at MLG Anaheim, where he finished 9th-12th in one of the most stacked events of the year. From there, he went to a Ro4 finish at RB Atlanta, where he took down Canadian brethren Hendralisk and the Chinese Zerg Toodming. Though he would fall out from IEM Toronto early, his 2-1 over Leenock and an astounding 2-0 victory over Jaedong showed that the EG Protoss still had the fire in him. Finding himself in the Ro8 of WCS AM, HuK is out to make his way into the top of the foreign scene once again.
This power rank leaves a strange taste because dominant though he looked against Rain, in the end Zest's month highlights were his defeats at the hands of Flash and soO, even though admittedly he had the upper hand against soO and kind of released his prey. I was surprised at first to see him holding the first place but after thinking a bit about it, I can't really say soO, INnoVation or Bomber would have been more undisputable n°1s. So fine with me, a good power rank.
On October 03 2014 05:31 SuperHofmann wrote: soO and INno are the GSL Finalists, none of them is top1. W0000000000000t.
soO is 22-11 and Zest is 19-8 in September, and if we remove their head to head soO is 18-8 and Zest is 16-4, and I don't think you can argue that their opponents were skewed in Zest's favour.
On October 03 2014 05:45 andrewlt wrote: I think soO has the best results but he has a special place at number 2. Somebody else must be number 1 by default, so it's Zest.
#1 should have just been left blank. Zest and soO should have just tied for 2nd.
On October 03 2014 05:38 Incognoto wrote: I wonder if players like Maru and Rain get into slumps because their stylistic play gets figured out too easily.
I personally think yes. It is not the way they play, but the way they can play, specially Rain, who can go only Colossus now(more or less), because he is not aggressive as Parting(or Maru in this case). Maru is batshit crazy aggressive player, but he opens with different strategies, so he is predictable but not so much. Rain in some periods was so much predictable it was not even nice :/
On October 03 2014 05:45 andrewlt wrote: I think soO has the best results but he has a special place at number 2. Somebody else must be number 1 by default, so it's Zest.
#1 should have just been left blank. Zest and soO should have just tied for 2nd.
Totally agree, but, hey, it is soO, he has to be second. I wonder why Innovation is not first because by winning semifinals he basically won the GSL (and take in consideration that I do not like innovation)
I don't see how Rain even belong on the ranking, seeing as he lost his first round of Kespa cup and first round of ro8 GSL. 3-0 and 3-1. JaeDong, MMA both won a primier title, but having done so poorly in WCS, I can understand leaving them out. (JD losing his group, MMA losing to Golden.)
On October 03 2014 05:58 DinoMight wrote: Guys the power rank is just for last month or two. Bomber was a beast he deserves his spot. Zest has been ridiculous.
soO at #2 is funny but honestly if you can't take home the prize you can't be the best player...
Honestly, i think Maru, Taeja, Parting and Rain are too high on the list, while Cure, soO and iNnoVation are too low. *runs away Anyways, its very hard to evaluate "who is the best right now?", despite recent results im pretty sure sOs, herO and Solar still know how to play and that they maybe deserve a place on the list
I posted it on the last power rank. Figured i had bragging rights. I called it, i called it so much XD Only sOs... T_T
This is fucking ridiculous. Maru... lol... players do well in a single tournament and people start hyping them like crazy and then a week later they lose and get completely forgotten. Maru had a single, SINGLE day off, wasn't on point, wasn't playing on his regular level and hes nowhere? like seriously? Same thing happend to Rain in season 2, thankfully there was a proleague to lach on, but still. To me personally power rank is about consistency ASWELL results/wins in recent leagues. Flash was hyped like crazy couple weeks ago, Flash #1 terran, Flash is back, a god blah blah. Now people are saying that the best terrans in the world are Cure, Bomber and INnoVation... come on.
Also don't know what the hell is herO doing above Rain.
One more suspicious thing is that last time only non-KeSPA player TaeJa at the time was ranked #4 and now Bomber ranked #4 aswell, seems that you guys have a certain line about comparing KeSPA koreans to other ones, like afraid to put them* in top 3 or nowhere near top 5, I guess the reasoning is not to upset fans of certain players.
Anyway, overall PR is decent much better then August, gj gj...
Anyway...
1.) Zest 2.) soO 3.) Rain 4.) Maru(he maybe did not play as much, but hes ACTUALLY that good) 5.) Cure 6.) Solar 7.) TaeJa 8.) Flash 9.) INnoVation 0.) Bomber
Terrans on the rise yes, OP little maybe, I feel that blizz should crank out couple of adjustments after release* of a major patch like this.
Also, most importantly:
If Soulkey isn't so going through puberty with all the "retiring/making a break/having fun" thing he would've made it top 5.
On October 03 2014 05:56 ejozl wrote: I don't see how Rain even belong on the ranking, seeing as he lost his first round of Kespa cup and first round of ro8 GSL. 3-0 and 3-1. JaeDong, MMA both won a primier title, but having done so poorly in WCS, I can understand leaving them out. (JD losing his group, MMA losing to Golden.)
On October 03 2014 06:16 REyeM wrote: Edit from above:
This is fucking ridiculous. Maru... lol... players do well on a single tournament and people start hyping them like crazy and then a week later they lose and get completely forgotten. Maru had a single, SINGLE day off, wasn't on point, wasn't playing on his regular level and hes nowhere? like seriously? Same thing happend to Rain in season 2, thankfully there was a proleague to lach on, but still. To me personally power rank is about consistency ASWELL results/wins in recent leagues. Flash was hyped like crazy couple weeks ago, Flash #1 terran, Flash is back, a god blah blah. Now people are saying that the best terrans in the world are Cure, Bomber and INnoVation... come on.
Also don't know what the hell is herO doing above Rain.
One more suspicious thing is that last time only non-KeSPA player TaeJa at the time was ranked #4 and now Bomber ranked #4 aswell, seems that you guys have a certain line about comparing KeSPA koreans to other ones, like afraid to put them* in top 3 or nowhere near top 5, I guess the reasoning is not to upset fans of certain players.
Anyway, overall PR is decent much better then August, gj gj...
Anyway...
1.) Zest 2.) soO 3.) Rain 4.) Maru(he maybe did not play as much, but hes ACTUALLY that good) 5.) Cure 6.) Solar 7.) TaeJa 8.) Flash 9.) INnoVation 0.) Bomber
Terrans on the rise yes, OP little maybe, I feel that blizz should crank out couple of adjustments after releasing of a major patch likes this.
Also, most importantly:
If Soulkey isn't so going through puberty with all the "retiring/making a break/having fun" thing he would've made it top 5.
Like. Easily.
Uh... Do you even know what a power rank is for? Maru didn't show what he could have shown. Cure, INnoVation and Bomber did. herO beat the opponent Rain couldn't beat in the KeSPA Cup.
Stop kidding yourself. Oh, and remember that this community suffers from long-term memory loss, so they don't really forgive the latest loss before the player redeems himself. wow.
REyeM if you're talking latent chops and peak skill then of course Maru and Soulkey should be in the discussion, but the power rank is more dependent on form in recent periods.
I like Soulkey and Maru as much as the next non-fanboy but their forms don't really put them in here
Grr soO is gonna get that number one spot. I believe. Also nice to see Bomber so high! Not sure he should be as high as four, but as a fan I'm happy he's on the list.
On October 03 2014 06:16 REyeM wrote: Edit from above:
This is fucking ridiculous. Maru... lol... players do well on a single tournament and people start hyping them like crazy and then a week later they lose and get completely forgotten. Maru had a single, SINGLE day off, wasn't on point, wasn't playing on his regular level and hes nowhere? like seriously? Same thing happend to Rain in season 2, thankfully there was a proleague to lach on, but still. To me personally power rank is about consistency ASWELL results/wins in recent leagues. Flash was hyped like crazy couple weeks ago, Flash #1 terran, Flash is back, a god blah blah. Now people are saying that the best terrans in the world are Cure, Bomber and INnoVation... come on.
Also don't know what the hell is herO doing above Rain.
One more suspicious thing is that last time only non-KeSPA player TaeJa at the time was ranked #4 and now Bomber ranked #4 aswell, seems that you guys have a certain line about comparing KeSPA koreans to other ones, like afraid to put them* in top 3 or nowhere near top 5, I guess the reasoning is not to upset fans of certain players.
Anyway, overall PR is decent much better then August, gj gj...
Anyway...
1.) Zest 2.) soO 3.) Rain 4.) Maru(he maybe did not play as much, but hes ACTUALLY that good) 5.) Cure 6.) Solar 7.) TaeJa 8.) Flash 9.) INnoVation 0.) Bomber
Terrans on the rise yes, OP little maybe, I feel that blizz should crank out couple of adjustments after releasing of a major patch likes this.
Also, most importantly:
If Soulkey isn't so going through puberty with all the "retiring/making a break/having fun" thing he would've made it top 5.
Like. Easily.
Uh... Do you even know what a power rank is for? Maru didn't show what he could have shown. Cure, INnoVation and Bomber did. herO beat the opponent Rain couldn't beat in the KeSPA Cup.
Stop kidding yourself. Oh, and remember that this community suffers from long-term memory loss, so they don't really forgive the latest loss before the player redeems himself. wow.
Power rank should be, right now, lets compare 2 players and make a decision who is better/who would do better in a tournament. And not just hey lets see who has won more games in the period of last 4 weeks. I can always check bottom right of my screen to see that list.
On October 03 2014 06:20 Silvana wrote: Well somehow people still manage to create controversy
...or attempt to.
Ah cmon, arguing about it is fun, if there would be no arguments what would the point of making such a list even be?
And this is still a sports forum. When you're talking about ANY sport, StarCraft being no exception, the discussion is almost always based around "my guy is better than your guy".
Maru in september is 23-19 in games, 9-7 in matches, with losses to TY, Dark, Super, Journey, Rogue, stats and parting and wins against : Ragnarok, Hurricane, Trust, Sleep, MK, Pet, eMotion, HerO and Raynor...
Don't see why some are so mad about him not being in the list, he's clearly not in a good shape atm....
Power rank equals part form guide, part carry over from the recent past. I wouldn't have had Flash ahead of herO necessarily but I wouldn't have removed him entirely either
On October 03 2014 07:25 Gwavajuice wrote: Maru in september is 23-19 in games, 9-7 in matches, with losses to TY, Dark, Super, Journey, Rogue, stats and parting and wins against : Ragnarok, Hurricane, Trust, Sleep, MK, Pet, eMotion, HerO and Raynor...
Don't see why some are so mad about him not being in the list, he's clearly not in a good shape atm....
The only remotely relevant tournament in the last month for Maru was the GSL, as a matter of fact everything else were qualifiers. I honestly don't believe that the players like Maru invest much in preparing for those types of things.
On October 03 2014 07:25 Gwavajuice wrote: Maru in september is 23-19 in games, 9-7 in matches, with losses to TY, Dark, Super, Journey, Rogue, stats and parting and wins against : Ragnarok, Hurricane, Trust, Sleep, MK, Pet, eMotion, HerO and Raynor...
Don't see why some are so mad about him not being in the list, he's clearly not in a good shape atm....
Overall agreeable ranking, ofc. there can be discussion about Maru, but judging him is more guessing than knowing atm. (online qualifiers often have the weirdest results, I wouldn't rate them to high). In the best-of-the-rest ranking, I'd personally rate Happy over HuK, but HuK has shown improvement as well again recently, so he is certainly not the worst pick for this position either.
Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
On October 03 2014 07:50 FlyingBeer wrote: Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
Which is why neither Polt nor MC are on the list- neither of them are as good as the GSL players you listed.
On October 03 2014 07:50 FlyingBeer wrote: Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
Yeah i was surprised that MC was not top 4/5 :/ I wonder if those loses against Hyun, First, Stardust, Patience, SpaceMarine or Targa have any link with him not being top10 though :/ I mean, he won against CPU, Maddelisk, Stahlbolzen, Nightend and Namshar !
Zest shades it for me, jokes aside. Winning the Kespa Cup with soO exiting early, crushing Rain and making another final for me > soO making a final and getting swept and defeating Zest, which was impressive but could very easily have gone to Zest.
On October 03 2014 07:25 Gwavajuice wrote: Maru in september is 23-19 in games, 9-7 in matches, with losses to TY, Dark, Super, Journey, Rogue, stats and parting and wins against : Ragnarok, Hurricane, Trust, Sleep, MK, Pet, eMotion, HerO and Raynor...
Don't see why some are so mad about him not being in the list, he's clearly not in a good shape atm....
The only remotely relevant tournament in the last month for Maru was the GSL, as a matter of fact everything else were qualifiers. I honestly don't believe that the players like Maru invest much in preparing for those types of things.
#1 should have just been left blank. Zest and soO should have just tied for 2nd
Haha. "Position Vacant, Applicants submit resumes at Blizzcon"
"So, Mr. Kim - can I call you Doh? Anyway, Doh, the last person who had this job was known for flippant, devil-may-care builds in high-pressure situations. Now, are you that kind of a person?"
soO is better than zest. lol taeja at #10 when he lost in wcs am again please. hyun has been losing early in every other tournament except when he beat taeja and now he's 0-5 vs pigbaby.
On October 03 2014 06:16 REyeM wrote: Edit from above:
This is fucking ridiculous. Maru... lol... players do well in a single tournament and people start hyping them like crazy and then a week later they lose and get completely forgotten. Maru had a single, SINGLE day off, wasn't on point, wasn't playing on his regular level and hes nowhere? like seriously? Same thing happend to Rain in season 2, thankfully there was a proleague to lach on, but still. To me personally power rank is about consistency ASWELL results/wins in recent leagues. Flash was hyped like crazy couple weeks ago, Flash #1 terran, Flash is back, a god blah blah. Now people are saying that the best terrans in the world are Cure, Bomber and INnoVation... come on.
Also don't know what the hell is herO doing above Rain.
One more suspicious thing is that last time only non-KeSPA player TaeJa at the time was ranked #4 and now Bomber ranked #4 aswell, seems that you guys have a certain line about comparing KeSPA koreans to other ones, like afraid to put them* in top 3 or nowhere near top 5, I guess the reasoning is not to upset fans of certain players.
Anyway, overall PR is decent much better then August, gj gj...
Anyway...
1.) Zest 2.) soO 3.) Rain 4.) Maru(he maybe did not play as much, but hes ACTUALLY that good) 5.) Cure 6.) Solar 7.) TaeJa 8.) Flash 9.) INnoVation 0.) Bomber
Terrans on the rise yes, OP little maybe, I feel that blizz should crank out couple of adjustments after release* of a major patch like this.
Also, most importantly:
If Soulkey isn't so going through puberty with all the "retiring/making a break/having fun" thing he would've made it top 5.
Like. Easily.
Why do you like Maru so much? Because of his micro?
On October 03 2014 07:50 FlyingBeer wrote: Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
Bomber is #4 because he actually has results against those GSL players while Polt and MC have not had good results in quite a while.
On October 03 2014 07:50 FlyingBeer wrote: Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
Yeah i was surprised that MC was not top 4/5 :/ I wonder if those loses against Hyun, First, Stardust, Patience, SpaceMarine or Targa have any link with him not being top10 though :/ I mean, he won against CPU, Maddelisk, Stahlbolzen, Nightend and Namshar !
Stahlbolzen would be on my Top 10 list, but oh well
On October 03 2014 07:50 FlyingBeer wrote: Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
Which is why neither Polt nor MC are on the list- neither of them are as good as the GSL players you listed.
It is true though that the Power Ranks are heavily biased towards stuff that happens in Korea, while usually they don't do any better oversea. PR is based on assuming B-Teamers are being better then Foreigners. Since those that get slaughtered by the top Koreans usually never meet, to see who really has the stronger opponents.
Its fun that way though, since it means that someone that doesn't attend GSL or ProLeague and makes it into the Power Rank was a true badass that month. While the rest is a good indication of who does well in Korea currently.
On October 03 2014 07:50 FlyingBeer wrote: Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
Which is why neither Polt nor MC are on the list- neither of them are as good as the GSL players you listed.
It is true though that the Power Ranks are heavily biased towards stuff that happens in Korea, while usually they don't do any better oversea. PR is based on assuming B-Teamers are being better then Foreigners. Since those that get slaughtered by the top Koreans usually never meet, to see who really has the stronger opponents.
Its fun that way though, since it means that someone that doesn't attend GSL or ProLeague and makes it into the Power Rank was a true badass that month. While the rest is a good indication of who does well in Korea currently.
Korea is the hardest region, if you really wanna deny that, gl ! Also: the last two "foreign" premier tournaments where you had a really competitive lineup had Kespa vs Kespa (aka korean koreans ^^) finals.
On October 03 2014 07:50 FlyingBeer wrote: Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
Which is why neither Polt nor MC are on the list- neither of them are as good as the GSL players you listed.
It is true though that the Power Ranks are heavily biased towards stuff that happens in Korea, while usually they don't do any better oversea. PR is based on assuming B-Teamers are being better then Foreigners. Since those that get slaughtered by the top Koreans usually never meet, to see who really has the stronger opponents.
Its fun that way though, since it means that someone that doesn't attend GSL or ProLeague and makes it into the Power Rank was a true badass that month. While the rest is a good indication of who does well in Korea currently.
Korea is the hardest region, if you really wanna deny that, gl ! Also: the last two "foreign" premier tournaments where you had a really competitive lineup had Kespa vs Kespa (aka korean koreans ^^) finals.
On October 03 2014 07:50 FlyingBeer wrote: Rain, Flash, Innovation, and Cure but no Polt or MC? Really? This list is way too heavily biased by GSL Korea. Any top pro can randomly have a strong run in a single tournament.
Which is why neither Polt nor MC are on the list- neither of them are as good as the GSL players you listed.
It is true though that the Power Ranks are heavily biased towards stuff that happens in Korea, while usually they don't do any better oversea. PR is based on assuming B-Teamers are being better then Foreigners. Since those that get slaughtered by the top Koreans usually never meet, to see who really has the stronger opponents.
Its fun that way though, since it means that someone that doesn't attend GSL or ProLeague and makes it into the Power Rank was a true badass that month. While the rest is a good indication of who does well in Korea currently.
Korea is the hardest region, if you really wanna deny that, gl ! Also: the last two "foreign" premier tournaments where you had a really competitive lineup had Kespa vs Kespa (aka korean koreans ^^) finals.
Let's be real for a moment
Bomber vs Cure though.
Well i didn't count redbull cause there were only 8 players. But even then that would be one out of three (and still a "korean korean" in the final)
I don't really get why Solar beats Cure. Cure comes second place in a foreign event (which he had to qualify for) vs solar coming first in a less stacked foreign event (which he just entered in r2). Meanwhile Cure is GSL Semifinal barely missing out to Innovation after smashing Solar in the QFs. Surely GSL should be rated higher than a foreign event? Also, just in terms of how they've been playing, Cure's looked much better.
On October 03 2014 10:52 Yonnua wrote: I don't really get why Solar beats Cure. Cure comes second place in a foreign event (which he had to qualify for) vs solar coming first in a less stacked foreign event (which he just entered in r2). Meanwhile Cure is GSL Semifinal barely missing out to Innovation after smashing Solar in the QFs. Surely GSL should be rated higher than a foreign event? Also, just in terms of how they've been playing, Cure's looked much better.
Honestly I think Cure is too high ranked. He has 3 bo3 losses in a row to protosses outside top 10. I would penalize that much higher than OP did, and would put Her0 above both Solar, Cure and Flash.
On October 03 2014 10:52 Yonnua wrote: I don't really get why Solar beats Cure. Cure comes second place in a foreign event (which he had to qualify for) vs solar coming first in a less stacked foreign event (which he just entered in r2). Meanwhile Cure is GSL Semifinal barely missing out to Innovation after smashing Solar in the QFs. Surely GSL should be rated higher than a foreign event? Also, just in terms of how they've been playing, Cure's looked much better.
Honestly I think Cure is too high ranked. He has 3 bo3 losses in a row to protosses outside top 10. I would penalize that much higher than OP did, and would put Her0 above both Solar, Cure and Flash.
Don't you mean the superior herO, killer of Flash?
why would you put herO over Solar? herO got a 2nd place in a tournament and then lost to Solar in the tournament Solar won. Solar made Ro8 GSL. I don't think it's unreasonable for Solar to be ahead of herO
the one tournament herO got far in he was invited to based off results well before this month. Solar lost in the final of the qualifier by 1 map
On October 03 2014 09:56 Dreamer.T wrote: Glad Zest is #1. If there's one word to describe him, it's consistency.
I dont mean to be a complete ass by starting an argument, but Zest was only consistent in 2014 (NEVER HEARD OF HIM IN 2012-2013 when other KeSPA ppl like Rain, Soulkey, INnoVation Dear have been winning things).
yes and I know Zest has beaten all the players I listed above, but still, his results last year and 2012, were not even 'inconsistent', he just wasnt worth mentioning in 2012 and 2013
On October 03 2014 10:52 Yonnua wrote: I don't really get why Solar beats Cure. Cure comes second place in a foreign event (which he had to qualify for) vs solar coming first in a less stacked foreign event (which he just entered in r2). Meanwhile Cure is GSL Semifinal barely missing out to Innovation after smashing Solar in the QFs. Surely GSL should be rated higher than a foreign event? Also, just in terms of how they've been playing, Cure's looked much better.
Honestly I think Cure is too high ranked. He has 3 bo3 losses in a row to protosses outside top 10. I would penalize that much higher than OP did, and would put Her0 above both Solar, Cure and Flash.
Solar lost 2-1 to a player I've never even heard of called "Gamja" in the RBBG qualifiers that Cure smashed his way though. There's no logic to Solar > Cure.
On October 03 2014 11:37 Shellshock wrote: why would you put herO over Solar? herO got a 2nd place in a tournament and then lost to Solar in the tournament Solar won. Solar made Ro8 GSL. I don't think it's unreasonable for Solar to be ahead of herO
the one tournament herO got far in he was invited to based off results well before this month. Solar lost in the final of the qualifier by 1 map
Becasue in my opinion a powerrank is about determining who is the best player currently, and I look at each and loss indivudally and weight on the strenght of the oppoennt. Thus, I don't give extra crredit to tournamnet wins. Rather, I believe it's mainly a result of variance. Some times good players wins a lot of games in a row and ends up winning a tournament and other times even better players ends up losing a game here and there and dropping out.
Solar simply do not have consistent good results against higher-caliber players for me to trust him. He has been quite mediocore for a while, and in order for me to convince me that its really a signifciant improvement, he will need to win over more Koreans. Flash did that in July and August and thus honestly looked like the best player in the world for a while. However, I am more confident in Heros skills than Solars skills (and much more confident in Heros skills than Cures sklils whom I tbh probably also would rank below Flash).
On October 03 2014 11:37 Shellshock wrote: why would you put herO over Solar? herO got a 2nd place in a tournament and then lost to Solar in the tournament Solar won. Solar made Ro8 GSL. I don't think it's unreasonable for Solar to be ahead of herO
the one tournament herO got far in he was invited to based off results well before this month. Solar lost in the final of the qualifier by 1 map
Becasue in my opinion a powerrank is about determining who is the best player currently, and I look at each and loss indivudally and weight on the strenght of the oppoennt. Thus, I don't give extra crredit to tournamnet wins. Rather, I believe it's mainly a result of variance. Some times good players wins a lot of games in a row and ends up winning a tournament and other times even better players ends up losing a game here and there and dropping out.
Solar simply do not have consistent good results against higher-caliber players for me to trust him. He has been quite mediocore for a while, and in order for me to convince me that its really a signifciant improvement, he will need to win over more Koreans. Flash did that in July and August and thus honestly looked like the best player in the world for a while. However, I am more confident in Heros skills than Solars skills (and much more confident in Heros skills than Cures sklils whom I tbh probably also would rank below Flash).
Looking at a power rank for the very current (at time of speaking) best player is silly. They are monthly rankings. So, you sort of use the "average dominance" of each player for that particular month (September). [Note: You seem to be arguing the same thing: that players should be ranked on overall consistency during the month.]
Solar recently (September 27) beat soO 3-0. He's also performed pretty well over the past month. Obviously, DH is his biggest highlight, but his other performances in September have been solid, at least. So, ranking him as 5 isn't that absurd.
I think the problem with these power rankings is that there just isn't enough tournaments of significance to be able to make extremely accurate rankings. The sample sizes for these players is just too small, in my opinion. During Proleague season, there are many more games, allowing for a much better picture of "Who Is The Best??". So, I wouldn't argue too much over these rankings.
Looking at a power rank for the very current (at time of speaking) best player is silly. They are monthly rankings.
Who is the best player now? That's how I perceive the power rank. The problem with ony looking at the results of one month is that it can be hugely influenced by variance. Especially if they only have a couple of games against the best players in the world.
But without a doubt, Solars results are good for the month. But each month there is always going to be this "flavor of the month player". Someone who previously was around top 20, who does really well in one month. The question which needs to be answered is whether he actually is that good or whether he was benefiting from positive variance, and that's the hard part about making a powerrank. In the case of Flash, he simply had so many good results against top 20/30 koreans that it was deserved that he went from around a top 30 ranking in early July to a top 2 ranking over the next 2 months. If we look at Solar, he just doens't have enough games against high level koreans for such a jump to be justified. Perhaps if you had him at rank 11-12 (just outside) top 10 in the previous month, it could make sense, but I perceived him as a bit worse than that prior to this month.
Cure looked like - perhaps the best terran just prior to the final vs bomber. But having watched his games since that, I am honestly just not impressed with him. He looked more like a flavor of the first half of September to me and I would probably rank him closer to rank 10 or so.
But, I don't think it's wrong per se to have Solar over Hero, its' a subjective estimate, but I think it's more likely that Hero is a better player right now. Last month, I felt it was a clear error to have Polt in top 10, because almost regardless of how you weighted various factors, you really couldn't justify it. In this month, however, there is no "direct" error.
now i've read some silly !@#$%^&* on this website, but this is something else.
Lol, for some reason I thought of Sos ^^ I mean obviously Solar beat Soo, that's what OP's ranking is based upon, becasue before Dreamhack, I don't think anyone thought of him as being a top-10 player. My point is that he needs to have more consistent results against top-caliber players for me to be convinced that he wasn't just benefiting from positive variance.
Some times it happens that worse players beats better players by a large margin. For instance Pigbaby 3-0'ed Taeja, and Taeja 4-0'ed Zest. How much credit should we give to these results? Should we base almost the entire ranking of 1 or 2 series or should we weight short-term results more modestly?
On October 03 2014 11:06 iViNtaGe wrote: OHH YEAH BOMBER!
Bomber's high is #1 btw. It was the power rank right after season 2 finals last year.
I only count my own PRs. That makes last month's PR the first by this count. Given the time between the "old" PR and the new (plus the layout change), I thought that was the easiest solution.
On October 03 2014 15:24 GumBa wrote: INno on 3rd I am pretty happy with next month 1st ez :D And rofl these discussions always make me laugh. I love PR
they're not going put someone who misses Blizzcon as #1
On October 03 2014 15:24 GumBa wrote: INno on 3rd I am pretty happy with next month 1st ez :D And rofl these discussions always make me laugh. I love PR
they're not going put someone who misses Blizzcon as #1
The Starcraft competition is so though right now and the skill level is so high, doing a PR like this is really hard. It looks pretty good, but there are like 20 more players you could argue about being top10.
Huk above Happy, Major, Vortix etc. seems weird, but since this is for Semptember and he is in the ro8 I am okay with that .
One of your better lists Mr Zealously. Only bomber is to high imo, so good job :D We see if Winnovation can show why he is 3rd on the list in the finals too.
I really tried but it was pretty hard to justify with how he looked in both August and September D:
SHIT
LIST
Not even a Prime player in the top 10. How can I still take you seriously
Oh lorning. You make my fanboyism look like mere child's play in comparison.
Good list, Zealously, I was about to argue with it until you admitted in the final paragraph that the final two spots are toss ups. That made it ok it my opinion.
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
but a player priding himself on consistency over long stretches of time and impeccable safe play in all situations to crash like that is both disappointing and worrying.
I'm not trying to sound like a douchebag, but Rain isn't "priding himself on" all that. He's renown for it, maybe. But that sentence makes it sound like Rain was an overly confident douche and didn't back up in the end, whereas you probably meant that he didn't live up to the high public expectations.
Well, let's juste say that "best of the rest" stands for "best of the foreigners who didn't make it into the regular top10" then ! But yeah, I didn't realise "best of the rest" was for foreigners only...
On October 03 2014 18:31 Dingodile wrote: How does "best of rest" work if we have a foreigner that is truly one of the 10 best players?
The player would be on both. I'll admit to thinking that's never realistically going to happen, however.
That doesn't make sense tho. How can he be part of "the rest" when he's already part of the power rank ?
It's a nicer way to say "Foreigner ranking"
Not very important, but I think most people initially think of "best of the rest" as the global top (incl. Koreans) outside of 10.
Yeah, I thought it was basically for those who did something notable while not making it in the regular top10, not especially foreigners... (although foreigners are notable for... well, not being korean)
I think Snute could break through one of these days he just has to let go and throw everything in every time when he gets close to the finals...He's really smart and talented so he'll figure it out.
On October 03 2014 16:14 fezvez wrote: Legit list. Of course, I am unsure about certain picks (Bomber so high?) but overall, pretty solid.
Oh yeah, you seemed to forgot that the #1 spot should of course be given to the #1 WCS ranking!
Pretty sure if you wrote about bombers results, replaced bombers name with taejas name, and released the entry no one would disagree or complain.
People need to read Zests entry. Results matter when you're talking about which players are better.
This is coming from someone who thinks bomber plays shitty. But even I can't argue against his placements.
Well, i think its funny how terrans are now crawling out of their holes everywhere, but when T was by far the worst race, Taeja dominated everyone(except pigbaby) and if i remember correctly, still wasnt 1st... no, Maru was still regarded as best terran, even tho he is nowhere near taeja in skill(at least before taeja went into hibernation)!
Also, if you go far in gsl, suddenly you are regarded as god... but when those that went far in gsl get demolished by foreigners (true, stork, solar, zest, innovation, life in shenzen)... suddenly they are not the "best", but crappy players who got lucky... and foreigners (being taeja mostly) get underrated for being lucky or beating "bad" koreans! i even read the comment saying how bad shenzen was because there were no top koreans in it... even tho stork, innovation, life were in ro16, solar and zest in ro8 and true in semis in that GSL! who the hell are top koreans then? those that cant go far in gsl? but foreigner is bad because he never competed in gsl, and gsl is the top... but top gsl players are not actually the best when they lose to foreigners...
Flash beats hush, terminator, guilty, symbol and that somehow turns into "best stretch by any player ever", just because he did it in korea and losing to MC, being outplayed by snute (until he chocked and tried to cheese quick 3rd win every game, guess he got overwhelmed with possibility he may beat "god" flash) are just disregarded, but hey... taeja just beat everyone whole damn summer except pigbaby... ha, bad taeja, in fact maru best terran in the world even after being mediocre at best for 2 months!!!
is korean scene stronger than foreign? yes, but not as much as before... are all koreans better than foreigners? no, does beating 3rd grade korean players count for more than beating top foreigners + top koreans? no... does winning gsl count for more than winning everything else? absolutely not... and funny enough, kespa fanboys agree... but only when gsl guys get beaten by foreigners... otherwise, gsl is the only thing that matters... for them at least
still think taeja is by far the best player in the world, when in good form and without problems... judging by his play alone (shenzen being the best argument for that... while terran was at the bottom, he played crazy games and did incredible things, even when on 3 bases against 5 base zerg, where he won every fight and ended the games with killing 100% more resources worth of troops than what he lost... and all that before buffs, not cheesing a single game)
On October 03 2014 21:17 genai wrote: Flash beats hush, terminator, guilty, symbol and that somehow turns into "best stretch by any player ever", just because he did it in korea
And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good... and couldnt handle himself if things dont go perfectly for him
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
Good luck with that... not one guy said anything that makes sense and makes it invalid... other than "derp derp, its kespa"
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
Good luck with that... not one guy said anything that makes sense and makes it invalid... other than "derp derp, its kespa"
How about Maru not only being the most consistent but also best terran performer in PL and GSL this year?
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing soO in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
soO is going to win the GSL 4-3, but then flash is going to win in some insignificant minor tournament 4-2 over INnoVation, which will make TL go crazy that IT IS FINALLY HAPPENING!!!!!! (again) and flash will be #1 for *insert good reasons*.
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
Personally, I got a good night of sleep, I did most of my homework already, I have a relaxing day ahead of me. Gonna be fun.
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
Personally, I got a good night of sleep, I did most of my homework already, I have a relaxing day ahead of me. Gonna be fun.
TaeJa isn't playing, so i'm not worried about you anyway. Poor GumBa though, if Bogus loses, all this work of recruiting people will be useless.
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
Personally, I got a good night of sleep, I did most of my homework already, I have a relaxing day ahead of me. Gonna be fun.
TaeJa isn't playing, so i'm not worried about you anyway. Poor GumBa though, if Bogus loses, all this work of recruiting people will be useless.
I'm like a top 5 INnoVation fan. This definitely matters for me o.O
SoO wins GSL and by doing so breaks the kong line giving him the confidence to also win Blizzcon after which he continues to reach back to back GSL finals but instead now wins them all so we can finally crown a SC2 bonjwa.
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
Good luck with that... not one guy said anything that makes sense and makes it invalid... other than "derp derp, its kespa"
How about Maru not only being the most consistent but also best terran performer in PL and GSL this year?
So how about taeja not only being the most consistent terran in the whole world but also the best terran who won the most games and tournaments in the whole world... playing against same players that are in the final stages of gsl and among the best in PL every time... and he also did it while terran was severely underpowered! But because he didnt compete in gsl and pl, its all worthless... who cares that he won tournament(s) maru couldnt even qualify for... its more telling that he didnt qualify for 1 tournament he didnt even try to enter...
If i see maru play like taeja (you know, actual skill in game, not getting wins in "certain environment" that you value more than all other environments, no matter the actual skill), then ill gladly agree... so far what games ive seen from maru were mostly mediocre at best, with some good micro only
edit: and im more of a JD fan, and i dont think taeja is god or anything, he is just most skilled player in the world... as in pure skill! playing a lot of games in a day and adapting and outplaying all sorts of players and races without preparation! not the best in preparation type tournaments tho... and somewhat predictable, as he never cheeses and plays majority of his games same "straight up play" way... so he has some nemesis who beat him because of it, but i think its more proof of his skill, that he wins so much anyway (like beating zest in straight up play and even when he didnt even scout his allins, and still just outplayed him, causing zest to fall out of his comfort zone and start making mistakes, while taeja performed perfectly even in those situations)... or later in the finals those insane games against non harassed zerg, and not any zerg... one thats also in final stages of GSL every time... purely on his skill, control and micro alone! I have never seen anyone coming close to that kind of play... flash is more of a robot, playing solid and not doing anything extraordinary, just not making mistakes most of the time... but taeja... he does things that makes you go "wow... how the hell?"
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
Good luck with that... not one guy said anything that makes sense and makes it invalid... other than "derp derp, its kespa"
How about Maru not only being the most consistent but also best terran performer in PL and GSL this year?
So how about taeja not only being the most consistent terran in the whole world but also the best terran who won the most games and tournaments in the whole world... playing against same players that are in the final stages of gsl and among the best in PL every time... and he also did it while terran was severely underpowered! But because he didnt compete in gsl and pl, its all worthless... who cares that he won tournament(s) maru couldnt even qualify for... its more telling that he didnt qualify for 1 tournament he didnt even try to enter...
If i see maru play like taeja (you know, actual skill in game, not getting wins in "certain environment" that you value more than all other environments, no matter the actual skill), then ill gladly agree... so far what games ive seen from maru were mostly mediocre at best, with some good micro only
Some people value tournaments that require preparation more. What you're saying is totally true in the weekend-style tournament, which is played over a few days in an unfamiliar environment (TaeJa excels in this). He is not terribly difficult to prepare for in WCS-type matches though.
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
Good luck with that... not one guy said anything that makes sense and makes it invalid... other than "derp derp, its kespa"
How about Maru not only being the most consistent but also best terran performer in PL and GSL this year?
So how about taeja not only being the most consistent terran in the whole world but also the best terran who won the most games and tournaments in the whole world... playing against same players that are in the final stages of gsl and among the best in PL every time... and he also did it while terran was severely underpowered! But because he didnt compete in gsl and pl, its all worthless... who cares that he won tournament(s) maru couldnt even qualify for... its more telling that he didnt qualify for 1 tournament he didnt even try to enter...
If i see maru play like taeja (you know, actual skill in game, not getting wins in "certain environment" that you value more than all other environments, no matter the actual skill), then ill gladly agree... so far what games ive seen from maru were mostly mediocre at best, with some good micro only
edit: and im more of a JD fan, and i dont think taeja is god or anything, he is just most skilled player in the world... as in pure skill! playing a lot of games in a day and adapting and outplaying all sorts of players and races without preparation! not the best in preparation type tournaments tho... and somewhat predictable, as he never cheeses and plays majority of his games same "straight up play" way... so he has some nemesis who beat him because of it, but i think its more proof of his skill, that he wins so much anyway (like beating zest in straight up play and even when he didnt even scout his allins, and still just outplayed him, causing zest to fall out of his comfort zone and start making mistakes, while taeja performed perfectly even in those situations)
It was discussed thousands of times after those years. TaeJa has impeccable mechanics but lacks in preparation skill, because of it he shines in those weekend tournaments, regularly being top-4 or higher but his best GSL result is top-4 and it was achieved only once, not speaking about last 2 years, when best TaeJa's result in WCS Murica is top-4 as well, as well as at Global Finals.
But calling him way better than Maru, meh. Maru has sick mechanics and incredible preparations + he had best Proleague coach last year. And people need to finally realise that cheese is a part of game and if someone can't cheese well or react to it it's his problem.
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
Good luck with that... not one guy said anything that makes sense and makes it invalid... other than "derp derp, its kespa"
How about Maru not only being the most consistent but also best terran performer in PL and GSL this year?
So how about taeja not only being the most consistent terran in the whole world but also the best terran who won the most games and tournaments in the whole world... playing against same players that are in the final stages of gsl and among the best in PL every time... and he also did it while terran was severely underpowered! But because he didnt compete in gsl and pl, its all worthless... who cares that he won tournament(s) maru couldnt even qualify for... its more telling that he didnt qualify for 1 tournament he didnt even try to enter...
If i see maru play like taeja (you know, actual skill in game, not getting wins in "certain environment" that you value more than all other environments, no matter the actual skill), then ill gladly agree... so far what games ive seen from maru were mostly mediocre at best, with some good micro only
edit: and im more of a JD fan, and i dont think taeja is god or anything, he is just most skilled player in the world... as in pure skill! playing a lot of games in a day and adapting and outplaying all sorts of players and races without preparation! not the best in preparation type tournaments tho... and somewhat predictable, as he never cheeses and plays majority of his games same "straight up play" way... so he has some nemesis who beat him because of it, but i think its more proof of his skill, that he wins so much anyway (like beating zest in straight up play and even when he didnt even scout his allins, and still just outplayed him, causing zest to fall out of his comfort zone and start making mistakes, while taeja performed perfectly even in those situations)
It was discussed thousands of times after those years. TaeJa has impeccable mechanics but lacks in preparation skill, because of it he shines in those weekend tournaments, regularly being top-4 or higher.
But calling him way better than Maru, meh. Maru has sick mechanics and incredible preparations + he had best Proleague coach last year. And people need to finally realise that cheese is a part of game and if someone can't cheese well or react to it it's his problem.
Yea, but preparation is not exactly "being better"... its like saying classic is better than zest, rain, sOs and the rest because he did nothing but prepare for GSL and won it once! Yet noone considered him best protoss even at that time... For me, the better player is the one that actually plays better, reacts better, is no flustered when things dont go their way... something most playing in korea lack... as zest showed... when taeja defended something that he shouldnt be able to defend, he started tilting and falling apart... making mistake after mistake... and that happened in all 3 games... as they play like robots... prepared stuff and while its going according to the plan, all is well, they are flawless, as they practiced it 10000 times... but if someone changes the "rules" with crazy good plays and stuff... they cant adapt! they rely too much on preparation! something you practice so much it becomes automatic... and then someone forces you to change the way you do it... it becomes awkward and hard, you barely can do it anymore Or when maru encountered guy that was better prepared, and still tried same build in each game and lost each game he did it(think it was against classic too)... he played just flat out bad... classic was well prepared for that style and maru had absolutely nothing else to pull out of his hat and just lost...fancy micro, but did nothing... he had that prepared and he tried going head first through the wall without adapting... think it was 3 rax build every game... even casters were like "he is sticking with it even tho its not working... wish he mixed it up a bit"
Guess that and this season that ive watched him has etched into my memory... as those plays were just avg terran with 1 build and some micro! even think only game he won was cheese if i remember correctly (or was it against jaedong on blizzcon... no idea anymore)
And all that while taeja was pulling crazy impossible holds, cloak ghosts, sniping every observer on the map, totally demolishing zest! and week later i see flash playing, and he plays with ghosts and no cloak for 10 minutes losing every damn ghost he has to feedbacks and losing the game... hell, noone in korea used widow mines before buff... yet taeja used them every game against zergs and using them great
Its those little things... that make me say that taeja is by far the best... whole kespa scene played one way, didnt do too good, and terrans were considered worst race while taeja played his own way destroying everyone!
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
:>
I quit sc2 for awhile after that game. The championship is INno's and no one elses
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
:>
This is GumBa's entire filter in the LR thread: + Show Spoiler +
On May 27 2013 22:58 GumBa wrote: Goooooo Innovation!!!!! Youve earned this victory now go get em!
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
:>
I quit sc2 for awhile after that game. The championship is INno's and no one elses
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
:>
This is GumBa's entire filter in the LR thread: + Show Spoiler +
On May 27 2013 22:58 GumBa wrote: Goooooo Innovation!!!!! Youve earned this victory now go get em!
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
:>
This is GumBa's entire filter in the LR thread: + Show Spoiler +
On May 27 2013 22:58 GumBa wrote: Goooooo Innovation!!!!! Youve earned this victory now go get em!
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
:>
This is GumBa's entire filter in the LR thread: + Show Spoiler +
On May 27 2013 22:58 GumBa wrote: Goooooo Innovation!!!!! Youve earned this victory now go get em!
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
:>
This is GumBa's entire filter in the LR thread: + Show Spoiler +
On May 27 2013 22:58 GumBa wrote: Goooooo Innovation!!!!! Youve earned this victory now go get em!
Was more of a lurker back then
Now you're even ahead of me in posts
Times change and passion wanes.
Strange how Wintex stopped posting so much right before Bomber actually got good again.
On October 03 2014 22:25 Ctesias wrote: Looking forward to seeing INnoVation in first place on this list after winning GSL, and then being correctly regarded as the best player in the world.
FTFY
How are you even alive :D Have you already prepared enough sedatives?
It doesnt matter if I live or die due to to much hype. As long as Lee Shin Hyung lifts the trophy at the end
Imagine yourself dying few moments after seeing this.
If you survived then, you will survive even after Eo Yun Soo hoists the trophey. Lee Shin Hyung will wait until Proleague 2015 finals.
:>
This is GumBa's entire filter in the LR thread: + Show Spoiler +
On May 27 2013 22:58 GumBa wrote: Goooooo Innovation!!!!! Youve earned this victory now go get em!
Was more of a lurker back then
Now you're even ahead of me in posts
Times change and passion wanes.
Strange how Wintex stopped posting so much right before Bomber actually got good again.
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
I was specifically referring to his Ro8 placing in WCS AM Season 3. Which is a much bigger accomplishment than any of his other tournament finishes this year, and most likely what put him on this Power Rank.
Group C was by far the weakest in terms of a second place finish. After Bomber, the rest of the members IMO wouldn't have advanced out of any of the other groups.
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
I was specifically referring to his Ro8 placing in WCS AM Season 3. Which is a much bigger accomplishment than any of his other tournament finishes this year.
Group C was by far the weakest in terms of a second place finish. After Bomber, the rest of the members IMO wouldn't have advanced out of any of the other groups.
Totally unrelated to the discussion but... what's up with all your ktvindicare stuff and you got a Prime flair???
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
I was specifically referring to his Ro8 placing in WCS AM Season 3. Which is a much bigger accomplishment than any of his other tournament finishes this year.
Group C was by far the weakest in terms of a second place finish. After Bomber, the rest of the members IMO wouldn't have advanced out of any of the other groups.
Totally unrelated to the discussion but... what's up with all your ktvindicare stuff and you got a Prime flair???
KT refers to my home World of Warcraft realm, Kel'Thuzad which I've been on since 2004. It doesn't refer to KT Rolster.
I never followed the Korean scene closely in Starcraft until I came to Starcraft 2 (Ironic since now that's mostly what I care about), which was after I began using KT in my screen names.
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
I was specifically referring to his Ro8 placing in WCS AM Season 3. Which is a much bigger accomplishment than any of his other tournament finishes this year.
Group C was by far the weakest in terms of a second place finish. After Bomber, the rest of the members IMO wouldn't have advanced out of any of the other groups.
Totally unrelated to the discussion but... what's up with all your ktvindicare stuff and you got a Prime flair???
KT refers to my home World of Warcraft realm, Kel'Thuzad which I've been on since 2004. It doesn't refer to KT Rolster.
I never followed the Korean scene closely in Starcraft until I came to Starcraft 2 (Ironic since now that's mostly what I care about), which was after I began using KT in my screen names.
But didn't you have the KT flair in the past?? hmm?? traitor
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
I was specifically referring to his Ro8 placing in WCS AM Season 3. Which is a much bigger accomplishment than any of his other tournament finishes this year.
Group C was by far the weakest in terms of a second place finish. After Bomber, the rest of the members IMO wouldn't have advanced out of any of the other groups.
Totally unrelated to the discussion but... what's up with all your ktvindicare stuff and you got a Prime flair???
KT refers to my home World of Warcraft realm, Kel'Thuzad which I've been on since 2004. It doesn't refer to KT Rolster.
I never followed the Korean scene closely in Starcraft until I came to Starcraft 2 (Ironic since now that's mostly what I care about), which was after I began using KT in my screen names.
But didn't you have the KT flair in the past?? hmm?? traitor
I've never had KT flair on TL.
I've alternated between IM flair and Prime flair since we've been able to use team flairs on TL.
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
I was specifically referring to his Ro8 placing in WCS AM Season 3. Which is a much bigger accomplishment than any of his other tournament finishes this year.
Group C was by far the weakest in terms of a second place finish. After Bomber, the rest of the members IMO wouldn't have advanced out of any of the other groups.
Totally unrelated to the discussion but... what's up with all your ktvindicare stuff and you got a Prime flair???
KT refers to my home World of Warcraft realm, Kel'Thuzad which I've been on since 2004. It doesn't refer to KT Rolster.
I never followed the Korean scene closely in Starcraft until I came to Starcraft 2 (Ironic since now that's mostly what I care about), which was after I began using KT in my screen names.
But didn't you have the KT flair in the past?? hmm?? traitor
I've never had KT flair on TL.
I've alternated between IM flair and Prime flair since we've been able to use team flairs on TL.
My favorite KESPA team is actually Jin Air.
I'm pretty sure it was you and now you're just trolling me.
/jk, it seems I mistake you for someone else, sorry ^^
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
I was specifically referring to his Ro8 placing in WCS AM Season 3. Which is a much bigger accomplishment than any of his other tournament finishes this year.
Group C was by far the weakest in terms of a second place finish. After Bomber, the rest of the members IMO wouldn't have advanced out of any of the other groups.
Totally unrelated to the discussion but... what's up with all your ktvindicare stuff and you got a Prime flair???
KT refers to my home World of Warcraft realm, Kel'Thuzad which I've been on since 2004. It doesn't refer to KT Rolster.
I never followed the Korean scene closely in Starcraft until I came to Starcraft 2 (Ironic since now that's mostly what I care about), which was after I began using KT in my screen names.
But didn't you have the KT flair in the past?? hmm?? traitor
I've never had KT flair on TL.
I've alternated between IM flair and Prime flair since we've been able to use team flairs on TL.
On October 03 2014 16:13 fingerwaggin wrote: Huk? lolwat
I am a self admitted Huk hater, but he earned his spot IMO.
It could be said that his power rank position displays the utter weakness of the foreign scene at the moment, but I am not ready to admit that.
Huk simply has proven results lately, granted in large part through bracket luck but his position in the power rank has a lot of justification behind it.
Ehm Bracket luck ? Where would you say he got lucky with the brackets ? You could maybe argue that RedBull atlanta was not too hard of a tourney over all and that his WCS Ro16 group wasnt the hardest and his IEM Toronto Group stage was weaker overall than the other one, but still both his Ro16 group as Toronto bracket were incredibly stacked, ann even on the other had he got very unlucky for example at DH groupstage 3. A group with SoO,Classic and Leenock ? Looks much more like a GSL Ro16 group to me ( except HuK but thats the point ). Bottom line he was not particularly lucky i think. ( not so unlucky either ofc)
I was specifically referring to his Ro8 placing in WCS AM Season 3. Which is a much bigger accomplishment than any of his other tournament finishes this year.
Group C was by far the weakest in terms of a second place finish. After Bomber, the rest of the members IMO wouldn't have advanced out of any of the other groups.
Totally unrelated to the discussion but... what's up with all your ktvindicare stuff and you got a Prime flair???
KT refers to my home World of Warcraft realm, Kel'Thuzad which I've been on since 2004. It doesn't refer to KT Rolster.
I never followed the Korean scene closely in Starcraft until I came to Starcraft 2 (Ironic since now that's mostly what I care about), which was after I began using KT in my screen names.
But didn't you have the KT flair in the past?? hmm?? traitor
I've never had KT flair on TL.
I've alternated between IM flair and Prime flair since we've been able to use team flairs on TL.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
On October 03 2014 21:56 genai wrote: And what part of that streak came before terran got from worst race to best race? and then go look taeja score while terran was the worst race...and still he wasnt considered the best... and was in fact considered overrated even tho every tournament was either taeja or protoss winning, and if taeja wasnt there, it was 2-3 protoss in top 4... all those incredible the bestests couldnt get even close to anything... losing to weaker players while playing just flat out bad (and still considered best)
and have no idea how can anyone claim maru to be better than taeja, he is not even close in skill... im quite sure that maru would lose to both zest and solar in those games at shenzen... watched plenty of his games, and he is just not that good...
I am actually getting dumber reading what you write. Maru not even close in skill to Taeja lolololol
Good luck with that... not one guy said anything that makes sense and makes it invalid... other than "derp derp, its kespa"
How about Maru not only being the most consistent but also best terran performer in PL and GSL this year?
So how about taeja not only being the most consistent terran in the whole world but also the best terran who won the most games and tournaments in the whole world... playing against same players that are in the final stages of gsl and among the best in PL every time... and he also did it while terran was severely underpowered! But because he didnt compete in gsl and pl, its all worthless... who cares that he won tournament(s) maru couldnt even qualify for... its more telling that he didnt qualify for 1 tournament he didnt even try to enter...
If i see maru play like taeja (you know, actual skill in game, not getting wins in "certain environment" that you value more than all other environments, no matter the actual skill), then ill gladly agree... so far what games ive seen from maru were mostly mediocre at best, with some good micro only
edit: and im more of a JD fan, and i dont think taeja is god or anything, he is just most skilled player in the world... as in pure skill! playing a lot of games in a day and adapting and outplaying all sorts of players and races without preparation! not the best in preparation type tournaments tho... and somewhat predictable, as he never cheeses and plays majority of his games same "straight up play" way... so he has some nemesis who beat him because of it, but i think its more proof of his skill, that he wins so much anyway (like beating zest in straight up play and even when he didnt even scout his allins, and still just outplayed him, causing zest to fall out of his comfort zone and start making mistakes, while taeja performed perfectly even in those situations)... or later in the finals those insane games against non harassed zerg, and not any zerg... one thats also in final stages of GSL every time... purely on his skill, control and micro alone! I have never seen anyone coming close to that kind of play... flash is more of a robot, playing solid and not doing anything extraordinary, just not making mistakes most of the time... but taeja... he does things that makes you go "wow... how the hell?"
Here, genai, let me help you out:
TaeJa vs the rest of the top 10 in 2014: vs Zest 5-1 vs INnoVation 4-5 vs Bomber 2-1 vs Solar 4-3 vs Flash 1-3 Total: 16-13 55%
I should maybe remove his loss against INnoVation in a team event since that's a little different, but then of course his rating improves.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
Ranking exact skill level is impossible, there's no such thing.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
It's a measure of who is the best player out there right now. However, it's way too easy to confuse simply variance in player results with someone improving/becomng worse, and thus it definitely is appropriate to take past results into account.
But you also need to to assess the probability that bad short-term results can be due to a player actually becoming worse. Honestly, Maru hasn't looked the best terran in quite a few months now, and I therefore wouldn't put him on top 10 either.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
So what? You're still just explaining that you don't understand what a Power Rank is.
Sports websites of all varieties do Power Rankings WEEKLY. Off of as few as ONE GAME per week in the case of the NFL.
They are not meant to be taken as serious measurements of exact skill, they are simply there to provide readers with a general gist of who is performing well at the time of the Power Rank with short term trends playing a far larger impact than long term.
Go read some sports websites, read their Power Rankings. Get a better understanding of what these are supposed to be like.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
So what? You're still just explaining that you don't understand what a Power Rank is.
Sports websites of all varieties do Power Rankings WEEKLY. Off of as few as ONE GAME per week in the case of the NFL.
They are not meant to be taken as serious measurements of exact skill, they are simply there to provide readers with a general gist of who is performing well at the time of the Power Rank with short term trends playing a far larger impact than long term.
Go read some sports websites, read their Power Rankings. Get a better understanding of what these are supposed to be like.
I edited my post to clarify my point.
"A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max."
SC2 doesn't have enough games per player for power rankings to be meaningful the same way they are in other sports.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
So what? You're still just explaining that you don't understand what a Power Rank is.
Sports websites of all varieties do Power Rankings WEEKLY. Off of as few as ONE GAME per week in the case of the NFL.
They are not meant to be taken as serious measurements of exact skill, they are simply there to provide readers with a general gist of who is performing well at the time of the Power Rank with short term trends playing a far larger impact than long term.
Go read some sports websites, read their Power Rankings. Get a better understanding of what these are supposed to be like.
I edited my post to clarify my point.
"A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max."
SC2 doesn't have enough games per player for power rankings to be meaningful the same way they are in other sports.
You're talking 50 hours of playtime over the course of an entire season.
There's definitely comparable number of hours of pro Starcraft players over the course of a year to an NFL team. I should know I spend way more time watching Starcraft than I do even my favorite sport NBA Basketball which has teams playing an 82 game regular season.
The NFL does weekly power rankings off 3 hours of gametime per team per week. TeamLiquid can afford to do monthly power rankings for Starcraft and be just as legitimate.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
So what? You're still just explaining that you don't understand what a Power Rank is.
Sports websites of all varieties do Power Rankings WEEKLY. Off of as few as ONE GAME per week in the case of the NFL.
They are not meant to be taken as serious measurements of exact skill, they are simply there to provide readers with a general gist of who is performing well at the time of the Power Rank with short term trends playing a far larger impact than long term.
Go read some sports websites, read their Power Rankings. Get a better understanding of what these are supposed to be like.
I edited my post to clarify my point.
"A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max."
SC2 doesn't have enough games per player for power rankings to be meaningful the same way they are in other sports.
You're talking 50 hours of playtime over the course of an entire season.
There's definitely comparable number of hours of pro Starcraft players over the course of a year to an NFL team. I should know I spend way more time watching Starcraft than I do even my favorite sport NBA Basketball which has teams playing an 82 game regular season.
It's not about the season, it's about the player. If there are a thousand players and each one plays a single hour-long game, there's going to be a lot of SC2 to watch, but the power ranking won't be worth shit because a thousand things could have gone wrong in that game. I understand that power rankings don't intend to measure raw skill, but they do intend to measure something -- I'm guessing they're meant to have some sort of predictive power? (If I'm wrong, please set me straight!) The fewer games you play, the less accurate it'll be.
My criticism was simply that some very good players are not playing enough SC2 for us to know where to place them this particular season so as to predict, to any degree, their success in the next season.
You watch more sports than I do and it shows. I'm caught wrong-footed here. But I feel intuitively that I've got a point... maybe.
The NFL does weekly power rankings off 3 hours of gametime per team per week. TeamLiquid can afford to do monthly power rankings for Starcraft and be just as legitimate.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
So what? You're still just explaining that you don't understand what a Power Rank is.
Sports websites of all varieties do Power Rankings WEEKLY. Off of as few as ONE GAME per week in the case of the NFL.
They are not meant to be taken as serious measurements of exact skill, they are simply there to provide readers with a general gist of who is performing well at the time of the Power Rank with short term trends playing a far larger impact than long term.
Go read some sports websites, read their Power Rankings. Get a better understanding of what these are supposed to be like.
I edited my post to clarify my point.
"A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max."
SC2 doesn't have enough games per player for power rankings to be meaningful the same way they are in other sports.
You're talking 50 hours of playtime over the course of an entire season.
There's definitely comparable number of hours of pro Starcraft players over the course of a year to an NFL team. I should know I spend way more time watching Starcraft than I do even my favorite sport NBA Basketball which has teams playing an 82 game regular season.
It's not about the season, it's about the player. If there are a thousand players and each one plays a single hour-long game, there's going to be a lot of SC2 to watch, but the power ranking won't be worth shit because a thousand things could have gone wrong in that game. I understand that power rankings don't intend to measure raw skill, but they do intend to measure something -- I'm guessing they're meant to have some sort of predictive power? (If I'm wrong, please set me straight!) The fewer games you play, the less accurate it'll be.
My criticism was simply that some very good players are not playing enough SC2 for us to know where to place them this particular season so as to predict, to any degree, their success in the next season.
You watch more sports than I do and it shows. I'm caught wrong-footed here. But I feel intuitively that I've got a point... maybe.
The NFL does weekly power rankings off 3 hours of gametime per team per week. TeamLiquid can afford to do monthly power rankings for Starcraft and be just as legitimate.
Very interesting. That's... very... frequent.
Emphasis in bold. Once again you are misunderstanding what a Power Rank is intended to do, predicting future success is not what it's for.
It's just to rank up the best players based on how they played during the period in which they were being ranked, with some weight given to long term or past successes (like Flash's August streak) in this case.
That's it, that's all they're for. Trying to use them for anything else is completely missing the point.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
So what? You're still just explaining that you don't understand what a Power Rank is.
Sports websites of all varieties do Power Rankings WEEKLY. Off of as few as ONE GAME per week in the case of the NFL.
They are not meant to be taken as serious measurements of exact skill, they are simply there to provide readers with a general gist of who is performing well at the time of the Power Rank with short term trends playing a far larger impact than long term.
Go read some sports websites, read their Power Rankings. Get a better understanding of what these are supposed to be like.
I edited my post to clarify my point.
"A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max."
SC2 doesn't have enough games per player for power rankings to be meaningful the same way they are in other sports.
You're talking 50 hours of playtime over the course of an entire season.
There's definitely comparable number of hours of pro Starcraft players over the course of a year to an NFL team. I should know I spend way more time watching Starcraft than I do even my favorite sport NBA Basketball which has teams playing an 82 game regular season.
It's not about the season, it's about the player. If there are a thousand players and each one plays a single hour-long game, there's going to be a lot of SC2 to watch, but the power ranking won't be worth shit because a thousand things could have gone wrong in that game. I understand that power rankings don't intend to measure raw skill, but they do intend to measure something -- I'm guessing they're meant to have some sort of predictive power? (If I'm wrong, please set me straight!) The fewer games you play, the less accurate it'll be.
My criticism was simply that some very good players are not playing enough SC2 for us to know where to place them this particular season so as to predict, to any degree, their success in the next season.
You watch more sports than I do and it shows. I'm caught wrong-footed here. But I feel intuitively that I've got a point... maybe.
The NFL does weekly power rankings off 3 hours of gametime per team per week. TeamLiquid can afford to do monthly power rankings for Starcraft and be just as legitimate.
Very interesting. That's... very... frequent.
Emphasis in bold. Once again you are misunderstanding what a Power Rank is intended to do, predicting future success is not what it's for.
It's just to rank up the best players based on how they played during the period in which they were being ranked, with some weight given to long term or past successes (like Flash's August streak) in this case.
That's it, that's all they're for. Trying to use them for anything else is completely missing the point.
Well that's that, then. I shouldn't talk about stuff I don't know about.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Potential is actually the one thing that is not that much tied with winning/losing. People were perfectly correct in saying that there was more potential in Innovation than anything else when he was losing. Because, you know, "anything else" means essentially: winning. I pretty much agree with Viper, in the end potential doesn't mean shit if you don't win games.
Anyway, a Power Rank shouldn't be about potential at all. It's about who's the strongest, not the strongest prospect. Edit: Oh and btw, your Power Rank is good, I agree with a lot of it :D
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
One thing that can be pretty easy to look at is playstyle. Roro was the king of BL/Infestor. As early as the beta, I remembered people saying "just wait until Roro gets his hands on SH." And what do you know, he had some great SH games (and by great I mean he won them). I'm sure there's a better way of phrasing it, but he has a talent for that style. While that style is weak, that talent is mere potential. But it remains untapped strength. If the style becomes powerful again - meta game shift or balance change or new expansion - then he can become a strong player again.
Innovation's strength is macro and micro, not flexibility. When Protoss was at its trickiest, Innovation fell the hardest because he stubbornly refused to adapt to the dozens of different openings Protoss had. He still had the potential to be an amazing player so long as scouting was once again taken out of the equation. If Tank/Raven becomes the go-to build in every Terran MU, there's only so much he'll be able to get out of that unit comp with his micro, so I seriously doubt he would look dominant.
Can it be measured? No, but I think it can often be observed.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
On October 04 2014 21:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Here's something to consider, though: unlike most sports, SC2 is an evolving competition. The skills it rewards change with every expansion, if not with every meta-game shift. Back in WOL beta, creativity was all the rage, and TLO and countless other foreigners had a lot of success trying off the wall builds. SC2 rewarded creativity. Now it just doesn't -- not until you hit the 99th percentile, anyway. It rewards other skills -- like the mechanics of splitting vs Banelings, which MKP invented and are now a requirement for playing TvZ.
Because SC2 keeps changing, it's not unreasonable to ask "what sort of game do we want it to change into? What sort of skills do we want it to reward more frequently or less frequently than it does now?" If someone perceives standard macro play to be a fundamental part of SC2, whereas trickery to come and go with the patches, then it's not unreasonable for that person to think that a strong macro player is "a better SC2 player" even if he loses to shenanigans.
If next week Blizzard decides they agree and makes a new expansion that makes that sort of trickery impossible, that person will have been vindicated. In this case, players aren't getting better or worse, it's the game that's changing around them.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
My point is, how can you determine that a player has potential if winning and losing is all there is?
On October 04 2014 21:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Here's something to consider, though: unlike most sports, SC2 is an evolving competition. The skills it rewards change with every expansion, if not with every meta-game shift. Back in WOL beta, creativity was all the rage, and TLO and countless other foreigners had a lot of success trying off the wall builds. SC2 rewarded creativity. Now it just doesn't -- not until you hit the 99th percentile, anyway. It rewards other skills -- like the mechanics of splitting vs Banelings, which MKP invented and are now a requirement for playing TvZ.
Because SC2 keeps changing, it's not unreasonable to ask "what sort of game do we want it to change into? What sort of skills do we want it to reward more frequently or less frequently than it does now?" If someone perceives standard macro play to be a fundamental part of SC2, whereas trickery to come and go with the patches, then it's not unreasonable for that person to think that a strong macro player is "a better SC2 player" even if he loses to shenanigans.
If next week Blizzard decides they agree and makes a new expansion that makes that sort of trickery impossible, that person will have been vindicated. In this case, players aren't getting better or worse, it's the game that's changing around them.
I guess, but this doesn't really matter that much imo. You only can value what already happened, there is no point in adding a factor "what if" into the consideration i think. An example i like to use: Let's say player X only canon rushes and wins 80% of his games with that strat, does that mean he is good at sc2? I think it does, even if it is arguably not the most exciting strategy out there. Some people would argue, no he isn't cause "random reason" , but that doesn't really make sense imo (even though i probably would rage too if that player wins vs my favorites :D)
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
My point is, how can you determine that a player has potential if winning and losing is all there is?
Sure, you can look at the games one for one and decide how close they were and why player X lost it in the end. I just don't see why that even matters? Potential is a word made for "loser", as hard as it sounds. That doesn't mean that a player with "potential" won't ever reach it, but before he does so there is no point in ranking him higher "cause he is soo good, he just can't do it in broadcasted matches" No he isn't so good, otherwise he would win games.
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
I think that's the actual point of a power rank. You can't get it right for everybody and it's going to be heavily biased anyways unless you leave it to a public vote. Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though... :D
On October 04 2014 21:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Here's something to consider, though: unlike most sports, SC2 is an evolving competition. The skills it rewards change with every expansion, if not with every meta-game shift. Back in WOL beta, creativity was all the rage, and TLO and countless other foreigners had a lot of success trying off the wall builds. SC2 rewarded creativity. Now it just doesn't -- not until you hit the 99th percentile, anyway. It rewards other skills -- like the mechanics of splitting vs Banelings, which MKP invented and are now a requirement for playing TvZ.
Because SC2 keeps changing, it's not unreasonable to ask "what sort of game do we want it to change into? What sort of skills do we want it to reward more frequently or less frequently than it does now?" If someone perceives standard macro play to be a fundamental part of SC2, whereas trickery to come and go with the patches, then it's not unreasonable for that person to think that a strong macro player is "a better SC2 player" even if he loses to shenanigans.
If next week Blizzard decides they agree and makes a new expansion that makes that sort of trickery impossible, that person will have been vindicated. In this case, players aren't getting better or worse, it's the game that's changing around them.
I guess, but this doesn't really matter that much imo. You only can value what already happened, there is no point in adding a factor "what if" into the consideration i think. An example i like to use: Let's say player X only canon rushes and wins 80% of his games with that strat, does that mean he is good at sc2? I think it does, even if it is arguably not the most exciting strategy out there. Some people would argue, no he isn't cause "random reason" , but that doesn't really make sense imo (even though i probably would rage too if that player wins vs my favorites :D)
But again, SC2 is not a static sport. You say that that's "what if," but the only mystery is how exactly the game will change. The fact that it changed fundamentally with HOTS, and will change fundamentally with LOTV, (never mind all other shifts) is undeniable.
If we want to predict who will be good at SC2 six months from now, or after LOTV comes out, or two years after LOTV release, we can't just look at who's winning now, we have to understand why they're winning. Are they a "full package" player who will remain consistent and go with the flow, or are they a one-dimensional one-trick pony?
I don't feel comfortable thinking that SC2 skill is an entirely nebulous thing and I should be happy with anyone winning at any time - "if they won then they deserved it." I want to be able to say that winning a professional match of SC2 means something concrete. Put another way: I don't love SC2 just because it exists, I have high expectations for what I want the game to be at a competitive level, and I want the pros to have to work very hard to earn their victories.
But I've been up for 30 hours now and I'm pretty sure I'm derailing the conversation far from where Zealously wanted to take it. Adios!
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
I think that's the actual point of a power rank. You can't get it right for everybody and it's going to be heavily biased anyways unless you leave it to a public vote. Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though... :D
Yeah sure, that is the reason i don't get it when people say something like "again people who cause ""drama"" in the power rank thread", it is fun to argue about it (but tbf i guess people use it as a joke most of the time ^^)
Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though...
Well it would be a popularity contest if we made it votable for everyone, i agree. But why do you think it is one already? I think Zealously does a pretty good job staying as objective as you can be pretty much, obviously bias is always there one way or another, but hey that is totally human.
On October 04 2014 21:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Here's something to consider, though: unlike most sports, SC2 is an evolving competition. The skills it rewards change with every expansion, if not with every meta-game shift. Back in WOL beta, creativity was all the rage, and TLO and countless other foreigners had a lot of success trying off the wall builds. SC2 rewarded creativity. Now it just doesn't -- not until you hit the 99th percentile, anyway. It rewards other skills -- like the mechanics of splitting vs Banelings, which MKP invented and are now a requirement for playing TvZ.
Because SC2 keeps changing, it's not unreasonable to ask "what sort of game do we want it to change into? What sort of skills do we want it to reward more frequently or less frequently than it does now?" If someone perceives standard macro play to be a fundamental part of SC2, whereas trickery to come and go with the patches, then it's not unreasonable for that person to think that a strong macro player is "a better SC2 player" even if he loses to shenanigans.
If next week Blizzard decides they agree and makes a new expansion that makes that sort of trickery impossible, that person will have been vindicated. In this case, players aren't getting better or worse, it's the game that's changing around them.
I guess, but this doesn't really matter that much imo. You only can value what already happened, there is no point in adding a factor "what if" into the consideration i think. An example i like to use: Let's say player X only canon rushes and wins 80% of his games with that strat, does that mean he is good at sc2? I think it does, even if it is arguably not the most exciting strategy out there. Some people would argue, no he isn't cause "random reason" , but that doesn't really make sense imo (even though i probably would rage too if that player wins vs my favorites :D)
But again, SC2 is not a static sport. You say that that's "what if," but the only mystery is how exactly the game will change. The fact that it changed fundamentally with HOTS, and will change fundamentally with LOTV, (never mind all other shifts) is undeniable.
If we want to predict who will be good at SC2 six months from now, or after LOTV comes out, or two years after LOTV release, we can't just look at who's winning now, we have to understand why they're winning. Are they a "full package" player who will remain consistent and go with the flow, or are they a one-dimensional one-trick pony?
I don't feel comfortable thinking that SC2 skill is an entirely nebulous thing and I should be happy with anyone winning at any time - "if they won then they deserved it." I want to be able to say that winning a professional match of SC2 means something concrete. Put another way: I don't love SC2 just because it exists, I have high expectations for what I want the game to be at a competitive level, and I want the pros to have to work very hard to earn their victories.
But I've been up for 30 hours now and I'm pretty sure I'm derailing the conversation far from where Zealously wanted to take it. Adios!
If we want to predict who will be good at SC2 six months from now, or after LOTV comes out, or two years after LOTV release, we can't just look at who's winning now
If someone wants to predict who will win a tournament in six months from now i would think that person is insane tbh I mean i get what you are saying, i just don't agree with it tbh. You value certain aspects way over others imo, which might be understandable cause the majority does so (let's be real, most people want to see macro games, that is the reason they value macro players so highly) , but if you try to be objective there simply are no rules how a "legit win" has to look like other than the game itself (aka "all buildings destroyed or to be the last one in the game) If you can achieve one or the other conistently, it simply doesn't matter how you do it. You might be right that strategy X could be gone with the next patch, but i don't see the point to value a player differently cause he could be gone with the next patch / metagame shift, i don't think we can look in the future yet
On October 04 2014 03:49 KalWarkov wrote: no maru. sen in top 5 foreigners, happy not.
everything else is acceptable.
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
I think that's the actual point of a power rank. You can't get it right for everybody and it's going to be heavily biased anyways unless you leave it to a public vote. Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though... :D
Yeah sure, that is the reason i don't get it when people say something like "again people who cause ""drama"" in the power rank thread", it is fun to argue about it (but tbf i guess people use it as a joke most of the time ^^)
Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though...
Well it would be a popularity contest if we made it votable for everyone, i agree. But why do you think it is one already? I think Zealously does a pretty good job staying as objective as you can be pretty much, obviously bias is always there one way or another, but hey that is totally human.
Well, soO not getting the #1 spot "because he cannot make #1 in GSL", and look, who profits from it? His babyboy Zest. On the flipside we have flash in spot #7, regardless of the fact that he isn't capable of making top8 in GSL. Why? Well, you'd have to put up with a lot of shit if you didn't put flash in a powerrank, so better give the people what they want.
Just two examples of course. You could probably argue Taeja too (but it's TL, Taeja is very popular), Rain and herO (very popular; don't need to achieve a lot to make #1 in powerranks ) etc.
On October 04 2014 03:56 Vindicare605 wrote: [quote]
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
I think that's the actual point of a power rank. You can't get it right for everybody and it's going to be heavily biased anyways unless you leave it to a public vote. Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though... :D
Yeah sure, that is the reason i don't get it when people say something like "again people who cause ""drama"" in the power rank thread", it is fun to argue about it (but tbf i guess people use it as a joke most of the time ^^)
Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though...
Well it would be a popularity contest if we made it votable for everyone, i agree. But why do you think it is one already? I think Zealously does a pretty good job staying as objective as you can be pretty much, obviously bias is always there one way or another, but hey that is totally human.
Well, soO not getting the #1 spot "because he cannot make #1 in GSL", and look, who profits from it? His babyboy Zest. On the flipside we have flash in spot #7, regardless of the fact that he isn't capable of making top8 in GSL. Why? Well, you'd have to put up with a lot of shit if you didn't put flash in a powerrank, so better give the people what they want.
Just two examples of course. You could probably argue Taeja too (but it's TL, Taeja is very popular), Rain and herO (very popular; don't need to achieve a lot to make #1 in powerranks ) etc.
yeah I remember the shitstorms that were caused when Flash didn't get a high placement in BW PR
I don't think that putting Zest over soO is weird tbh (but hey i may be biased as well ), soO over Zest would have been fine too though. Flash might be arguable, i agree, but cmon, the list isn't bad at all (and as i said, no matter how hard you try, there always will be some bias, AND people who aren't content with the list ^^)
Hey, I'm not saying the players on the list are bad or don't deserve the spots. Nor that the spots in particular are really badly chosen. But I think those PRs show a trend that besides players that have obviously performed very well recently (like Cure or Solar in this case), the debatable spots just "happen" to go to the players that are are more popular or have the bigger names. For some it is enough to have good results last month to stay relevant, others can't even get in if they have good results this month.
On October 04 2014 03:56 Vindicare605 wrote: [quote]
It's a September Power Ranking, Maru hasn't done anything worthwhile in September other than be eliminated in the Ro16 from GSL.
I'm a huge Maru fan, but his being omitted from this Power Rank is completely understandable.
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
I think that's the actual point of a power rank. You can't get it right for everybody and it's going to be heavily biased anyways unless you leave it to a public vote. Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though... :D
Yeah sure, that is the reason i don't get it when people say something like "again people who cause ""drama"" in the power rank thread", it is fun to argue about it (but tbf i guess people use it as a joke most of the time ^^)
Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though...
Well it would be a popularity contest if we made it votable for everyone, i agree. But why do you think it is one already? I think Zealously does a pretty good job staying as objective as you can be pretty much, obviously bias is always there one way or another, but hey that is totally human.
Well, soO not getting the #1 spot "because he cannot make #1 in GSL", and look, who profits from it? His babyboy Zest. On the flipside we have flash in spot #7, regardless of the fact that he isn't capable of making top8 in GSL. Why? Well, you'd have to put up with a lot of shit if you didn't put flash in a powerrank, so better give the people what they want.
Just two examples of course. You could probably argue Taeja too (but it's TL, Taeja is very popular), Rain and herO (very popular; don't need to achieve a lot to make #1 in powerranks ) etc.
I actually think that as long as Life, Sora ( -.- ) and Bbyong aren't in the discussion for top 10, I have little trouble remaining mostly objective. I resent the notion that I'd keep Flash (for example) on the Power Rank because people would be upset otherwise, I don't care very much about people disagreeing with me!
On October 04 2014 08:23 pure.Wasted wrote: [quote]
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
I think that's the actual point of a power rank. You can't get it right for everybody and it's going to be heavily biased anyways unless you leave it to a public vote. Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though... :D
Yeah sure, that is the reason i don't get it when people say something like "again people who cause ""drama"" in the power rank thread", it is fun to argue about it (but tbf i guess people use it as a joke most of the time ^^)
Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though...
Well it would be a popularity contest if we made it votable for everyone, i agree. But why do you think it is one already? I think Zealously does a pretty good job staying as objective as you can be pretty much, obviously bias is always there one way or another, but hey that is totally human.
Well, soO not getting the #1 spot "because he cannot make #1 in GSL", and look, who profits from it? His babyboy Zest. On the flipside we have flash in spot #7, regardless of the fact that he isn't capable of making top8 in GSL. Why? Well, you'd have to put up with a lot of shit if you didn't put flash in a powerrank, so better give the people what they want.
Just two examples of course. You could probably argue Taeja too (but it's TL, Taeja is very popular), Rain and herO (very popular; don't need to achieve a lot to make #1 in powerranks ) etc.
I actually think that as long as Life, Sora ( -.- ) and Bbyong aren't in the discussion for top 10, I have little trouble remaining mostly objective. I resent the notion that I'd keep Flash (for example) on the Power Rank because people would be upset otherwise, I don't care very much about people disagreeing with me!
I think if anything else was the case, you absolutly couldn't make such a PR. I think I couldn't do it. I usually don't like making these calls, way too many perspectives for a single person to make the right ones. I'm just a jerk to others for not agreeing with my perspectives.
On October 04 2014 08:23 pure.Wasted wrote: [quote]
If I were personally doing a PR, long-term trends would hold much more sway. There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge the exact skill level of all, say, top twenty Korean pros at any given time... so we end up with the silly situation of Maru having one shitty day and vanishing from the top 10. Maru's done with competitive SC2 until 2015 S1, for all intents and purposes, so arguably the best SC2 player in the world will be absent from PR for a stretch of 5-6 months. Probably longer, unless he gets Zest and soO in his RO32 group and gets out in first place.
But I'm not personally doing a PR. :x
You don't understand what a Power Rank is do you?
It isn't a ranking of exact skill level.
There just isn't enough SC2 on a month-to-month basis to properly gauge [exactly how well players are performing]. Winning =! performing. A lot of stuff goes into a win that has little/nothing to do with your own performance, including your opponent's performance, and luck.
A shitty NFL team will play 16 games x 3 hours = 50 hours worth of playtime to draw conclusions from.
How many hours do we get of the most prolific players, like soO? Ten? Max.
Winning is all that matters. It is ridiculous to watch someone play and say "oh his play is really good but somehow he loses all the time". Either you win or you lose, HOW you do it is completely irrelevant imo.
Edit: But i agree that a power rank every month might be too much, i think it would be better if you had more games to look at as well.
I don't remember if you were the guy I talked to about this last month, but I think there's definitely more to SC than just winning or losing. I remember saying that Fionn predicted Innovation being great when he had an abysmal record in Proleague, to which the response was "Well, that's more potential than anything.", But how do you measure a player's potential if there's nothing more to being good than winning a lot?
Sure, but "potential" is just that, nothing more. Either you play to your full potential or you don't. This has very little to do with valuating the current performance imo And yeah it probably was me, cause i still think it doesn't matter HOW you win a game, i almost cringe when i see people say "well it doesn't count cause it wasn't a 5 hour macro game"
Edit: I also think your power rank here is pretty good, i just think every month might be a little bit too much maybe? (but on the other hand i enjoy reading them and arguing about it, so whatever :D)
I think that's the actual point of a power rank. You can't get it right for everybody and it's going to be heavily biased anyways unless you leave it to a public vote. Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though... :D
Yeah sure, that is the reason i don't get it when people say something like "again people who cause ""drama"" in the power rank thread", it is fun to argue about it (but tbf i guess people use it as a joke most of the time ^^)
Which then turns it into a popularity contest. Which it already is though...
Well it would be a popularity contest if we made it votable for everyone, i agree. But why do you think it is one already? I think Zealously does a pretty good job staying as objective as you can be pretty much, obviously bias is always there one way or another, but hey that is totally human.
Well, soO not getting the #1 spot "because he cannot make #1 in GSL", and look, who profits from it? His babyboy Zest. On the flipside we have flash in spot #7, regardless of the fact that he isn't capable of making top8 in GSL. Why? Well, you'd have to put up with a lot of !@#$%^&* if you didn't put flash in a powerrank, so better give the people what they want.
Just two examples of course. You could probably argue Taeja too (but it's TL, Taeja is very popular), Rain and herO (very popular; don't need to achieve a lot to make #1 in powerranks ) etc.
I actually think that as long as Life, Sora ( -.- ) and Bbyong aren't in the discussion for top 10, I have little trouble remaining mostly objective. I resent the notion that I'd keep Flash (for example) on the Power Rank because people would be upset otherwise, I don't care very much about people disagreeing with me!
It was only a month ago that he basically outplayed the "best player in the world" in a bo7 series. No way has he gotten that much worse since then. He obviously still deserves to be on the list.
People are arguing whether we should count wins only or general performance. As far as I see, Maru was kicked out because he didn't won his matches but there is that statement about TeaJa, written on the power rank:
Three series in all of September isn't enough for me to kick Taeja out of the Power Rank
And I think that Teaja is there only because he is in TL. Well, if Teaja was that good, then he will be playing in Code S and not barely making it to Ro32 of WCS AM. If you want to make a PR based only on results then don't be (positively) biased with any TL gamer.
All in all I would like to see a more general PR based on performance and not only on wins in a Bo3 or Bo5.
On October 05 2014 00:13 CNSnow wrote: People are arguing whether we should count wins only or general performance. As far as I see, Maru was kicked out because he didn't won his matches but there is that statement about TeaJa, written on the power rank:
Three series in all of September isn't enough for me to kick Taeja out of the Power Rank
And I think that Teaja is there only because he is in TL. Well, if Teaja was that good, then he will be playing in Code S and not barely making it to Ro32 of WCS AM. If you want to make a PR based only on results then don't be (positively) biased with any TL gamer.
All in all I would like to see a more general PR based on performance and not only on wins in a Bo3 or Bo5.
What if I told you that I am unaffiliated with Team Liquid the SC2 team and that I don't particularly like the players on TeamLiquid?
Comparing performances between strong players makes a lot of sense. Solar is a great example. He's had two big tournament results against a very deep field, but he got some rather easy match-ups. Both times, he had an easy group and still only placed 2nd in his group, and he got very lucky at Shenzhen when Jim beat San (who has a weak PvP but the best PvZ in the world). They're giving an unfair advantage to the Koreans vs the Americans and Europeans by using GSL results but ignoring WCS America/Europe results (unless somebody loses of course) but thems the breaks.
Great list. I guess TaeJa probably doesn't deserve to be there, as much as I like him and think he's incredible at his best, but yeh. Love Maru too but I agree that he doesn't deserve to be there, and Flash is too high for my liking.
On October 05 2014 03:05 usopsama wrote: Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A power ranking that I can agree with, except for #4 and #10.
Too high or too low?
Shouldn't be there at all.
So you think, that Bomber, who defeated Rain relatively safely and stomped Cure into the ground without any problem should be ranked lower than both of them?
On October 05 2014 03:05 usopsama wrote: Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A power ranking that I can agree with, except for #4 and #10.
Too high or too low?
Shouldn't be there at all.
So you think, that Bomber, who defeated Rain relatively safely and stomped Cure into the ground without any problem should be ranked lower than both of them?
Was bored enough to look at some of his posting history, total kespa fanboy/troll (i still really don't understand this). But I guess this was obvious anyways
Still absurd that Flash is even in it, but at least it is getting better in this respect. Shame that it is so strictly bounded by the arbitrary boundary of a month, because the GSL finals have made soO look like a gold league scrub, definitely not the 2nd best player.
On October 05 2014 17:16 lichter wrote: you're all silly for replying to usopsama. he's just obliged not to like non kespa players. you know, because opinions.
On October 05 2014 17:03 opisska wrote: Still absurd that Flash is even in it, but at least it is getting better in this respect. Shame that it is so strictly bounded by the arbitrary boundary of a month, because the GSL finals have made soO look like a gold league scrub, definitely not the 2nd best player.
soO is the 2nd best player (or even the best) as long as he isn't playing in the finals!
On October 05 2014 20:21 sigm wrote: So will soO now have a permanent 2nd place in any upcoming power ranks or will you wait for his 2nd place finish at Blizzcon to make that decision?
I'm actually just going to put a silvery background behind his section in every upcoming PR
On October 05 2014 17:03 opisska wrote: Still absurd that Flash is even in it, but at least it is getting better in this respect. Shame that it is so strictly bounded by the arbitrary boundary of a month, because the GSL finals have made soO look like a gold league scrub, definitely not the 2nd best player.
soO is the 2nd best player (or even the best) as long as he isn't playing in the finals!
While I get that the extraordinary sequence of second places it makes a nice running joke, you have to admit that he got quite rolled by Innovation - so much that it's hard to put it as just "too anxious in finals" or whatever. Yes, inno lost the roach-bane games, but that was kind of expected. At any point where something vaguely resembling a normal game was played, soO was looking heavily outclassed (and I say that as someone who has been silenty hating innovation for two years already). But on the other hand, the 2nd place is an impressive feat in itself and I always say that the closest thing to a real comparison of players is the result list of the last GSL, so why not.
On October 05 2014 17:03 opisska wrote: Still absurd that Flash is even in it, but at least it is getting better in this respect. Shame that it is so strictly bounded by the arbitrary boundary of a month, because the GSL finals have made soO look like a gold league scrub, definitely not the 2nd best player.
soO is the 2nd best player (or even the best) as long as he isn't playing in the finals!
While I get that the extraordinary sequence of second places it makes a nice running joke, you have to admit that he got quite rolled by Innovation - so much that it's hard to put it as just "too anxious in finals" or whatever. Yes, inno lost the roach-bane games, but that was kind of expected. At any point where something vaguely resembling a normal game was played, soO was looking heavily outclassed (and I say that as someone who has been silenty hating innovation for two years already). But on the other hand, the 2nd place is an impressive feat in itself and I always say that the closest thing to a real comparison of players is the result list of the last GSL, so why not.
On October 06 2014 02:58 lopido wrote: i like how flash is still in the top 10 tho he is doing pretty bad lately... So much Hype
kespa cup semis isn't bad
If Flash doesn't deserve to be in top 10, why would herO (out of Code A, Finals instead of Ro4 in Kespa Cup), Taeja (dropped out of Ro16 in WCS just like Flash and has no other results), or Rain (Ro8 instead of Ro16 in GSL, but Ro16 instead of Ro4 in Kespa)?
Not sure if zest should be #1 but I pretty much agree with the list.
Foreigner list Snute is a very good player and I would like to say first that I respect this guys skill. BUT. . . . Scarlett is a better player. She has been on the top 3 of the foreign scene for most of the past 2 years. It seems our community favors EU players and there is this misconception that they have the stronger metagame. When considering top foreigners it seems simply playing EU, despite who they actually beat, makes people lean their way. NA champions and players never get the credit they should. I'm not even a fan of scarlett but to say that she's 3rd is laughable. I know it's the past month that carries the most weight but all things considered snute is the only player you could possibly argue with. Bunny had a good tournament, 2nd best foreigner in the world?! Not even close.
And before I get flamed or something I will say that overall EU probably has a stronger player base. But imho, they are awful damn close right now.
On October 03 2014 05:36 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Bomber is probably too high, but other than that it's a pretty disappointing list because there isn't enough to argue about
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2013/Korea_1/finals/g7momentoffate.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/2/25/Soulkey-LP-MLG20120609-222237.jpg/268px-Soulkey-LP-MLG20120609-222237.jpg)
