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On July 21 2014 02:28 Foreverkul wrote:
Isn't it weird how these all these "buffs" to hellbats and mines are actually just returning HotS to its original release setup? Its almost like HotS was balanced before all the nerfs.
I rather feel that Blizzard is trying to avoid the fail of HotS units, just "balance" hots units so that everyone thinks hots units are great additions to sc2.
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On July 21 2014 02:28 Foreverkul wrote:
Isn't it weird how these all these "buffs" to hellbats and mines are actually just returning HotS to its original release setup? Its almost like HotS was balanced before all the nerfs.
Well that really does not apply to Z and P. Personally i don´t like the way they are going around balancing the game. HB buffs are especially terrible as the unit is a stupid a-move unit like the colossus and WM buff encourages only one way to play terran.
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On July 21 2014 02:50 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 02:28 Foreverkul wrote:
Isn't it weird how these all these "buffs" to hellbats and mines are actually just returning HotS to its original release setup? Its almost like HotS was balanced before all the nerfs. Well that really does not apply to Z and P. Personally i don´t like the way they are going around balancing the game. HB buffs are especially terrible as the unit is a stupid a-move unit like the colossus and WM buff encourages only one way to play terran.
At least hellbats encourage some cute drop play. But i agree that blizzard was too heavy handed on patching release HOTS.
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On July 21 2014 03:13 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 02:50 RaFox17 wrote:On July 21 2014 02:28 Foreverkul wrote:
Isn't it weird how these all these "buffs" to hellbats and mines are actually just returning HotS to its original release setup? Its almost like HotS was balanced before all the nerfs. Well that really does not apply to Z and P. Personally i don´t like the way they are going around balancing the game. HB buffs are especially terrible as the unit is a stupid a-move unit like the colossus and WM buff encourages only one way to play terran. At least hellbats encourage some cute drop play. But i agree that blizzard was too heavy handed on patching release HOTS.
It's really hard to give terrans an option like pre-nerf BF bats in the context of the marine. Anything that comes out early enough to be a serious threat while zergs are still building their basic economy is always going to have to be balanced on a razor's edge. Any serious disruption or delay in the zerg eco will likely result in dying to a massive bio push a few minutes later.
The marine is just such a strong unit and requires such gas intensive composition to counter when massed, that something like the old BF bats just made it stupidly hard for zerg to avoid taking enough damage that the followup bio parade push wouldn't kill them, while at the same time getting enough eco to build the combination of banes and mutas needed to fight mass marine in the mid game. I don't know how to solve this with anything else than a straight up nerf to marines and then working from there. Watching a 50 mineral unit mow down protoss gateway units and zerg t1-2 makes it rather hard to find avenues to improve terran, without just giving them a massive timing window where the opponent simply doesn't have the higher tier units you need to deal with large numbers of marines.
I think the exceptional power of the marine is actually holding terran back, the presence of a highly mobile, versatile, high DPS and, for its cost, very durable tier 1 unit just puts everything else in the position of having to exist around that unit, rather than alongside it. If the marine could be more of part of the puzzle rather than the one-size-fits-all solution to anything that doesn't do huge AOE damage, maybe the terran tech tree could be more fleshed out, and actually incentivize teching up.
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On July 21 2014 03:36 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 03:13 Morbidius wrote:On July 21 2014 02:50 RaFox17 wrote:On July 21 2014 02:28 Foreverkul wrote:
Isn't it weird how these all these "buffs" to hellbats and mines are actually just returning HotS to its original release setup? Its almost like HotS was balanced before all the nerfs. Well that really does not apply to Z and P. Personally i don´t like the way they are going around balancing the game. HB buffs are especially terrible as the unit is a stupid a-move unit like the colossus and WM buff encourages only one way to play terran. At least hellbats encourage some cute drop play. But i agree that blizzard was too heavy handed on patching release HOTS. It's really hard to give terrans an option like pre-nerf BF bats in the context of the marine. Anything that comes out early enough to be a serious threat while zergs are still building their basic economy is always going to have to be balanced on a razor's edge. The marine is just such a strong unit and requires such gas intensive composition to counter when massed, that something like the old BF bats just made it stupidly hard for zerg to avoid taking enough damage that the followup bio parade push wouldn't kill them, while at the same time getting enough eco to build the combination of banes and mutas needed to fight mass marine in the mid game. I don't know how to solve this with anything else than a straight up nerf to marines and then working from there. Watching a 50 mineral unit mow down protoss gateway units and zerg t1-2 makes it rather hard to find avenues to improve terran, without just giving them a massive timing window where the opponent simply doesn't have the higher tier units you need to deal with large numbers of marines. I think the exceptional power of the marine is actually holding terran back, the presence of a highly mobile, versatile, high DPS and, for its cost, very durable tier 1 unit just puts everything else in the position of having to exist around that unit, rather than alongside it.
Couldn't agree more. I'm Terran, and I love my marines. But they break the race. Am hoping for some kind of marine rework along with a ton of other tech becoming better for Terran in LotV.
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On July 21 2014 03:36 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 03:13 Morbidius wrote:On July 21 2014 02:50 RaFox17 wrote:On July 21 2014 02:28 Foreverkul wrote:
Isn't it weird how these all these "buffs" to hellbats and mines are actually just returning HotS to its original release setup? Its almost like HotS was balanced before all the nerfs. Well that really does not apply to Z and P. Personally i don´t like the way they are going around balancing the game. HB buffs are especially terrible as the unit is a stupid a-move unit like the colossus and WM buff encourages only one way to play terran. At least hellbats encourage some cute drop play. But i agree that blizzard was too heavy handed on patching release HOTS. It's really hard to give terrans an option like pre-nerf BF bats in the context of the marine. Anything that comes out early enough to be a serious threat while zergs are still building their basic economy is always going to have to be balanced on a razor's edge. Any serious disruption or delay in the zerg eco will likely result in dying to a massive bio push a few minutes later. The marine is just such a strong unit and requires such gas intensive composition to counter when massed, that something like the old BF bats just made it stupidly hard for zerg to avoid taking enough damage that the followup bio parade push wouldn't kill them, while at the same time getting enough eco to build the combination of banes and mutas needed to fight mass marine in the mid game. I don't know how to solve this with anything else than a straight up nerf to marines and then working from there. Watching a 50 mineral unit mow down protoss gateway units and zerg t1-2 makes it rather hard to find avenues to improve terran, without just giving them a massive timing window where the opponent simply doesn't have the higher tier units you need to deal with large numbers of marines. I think the exceptional power of the marine is actually holding terran back, the presence of a highly mobile, versatile, high DPS and, for its cost, very durable tier 1 unit just puts everything else in the position of having to exist around that unit, rather than alongside it. If the marine could be more of part of the puzzle rather than the one-size-fits-all solution to anything that doesn't do huge AOE damage, maybe the terran tech tree could be more fleshed out, and actually incentivize teching up.
That would require an entire rework of the race, David Kim can't mess around with unused units without breaking the game, imagine what would happen if he touched the marine. Also i said Blizz was heavy handed in patching release HOTS but i believe the hellbat nerf was on the spot. Perhaps blue flame should be shorter/less expensive now because of it tho.
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What is wrong with the marine? It has been balanced in context of the zealot and the zergling. I don't see the problem, please explain further? If you would like a different role for the marine then you basicly need to redo all three races. Basicly the whole game.
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What about moving some bio and mech requirements to new buildings like the academy or science facility?
And make reactors more expensive (like 100/100 each)?
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On July 21 2014 23:55 gneGne wrote:
What is wrong with the marine? [1]It has been balanced in context of the zealot and the zergling. I don't see the problem, please explain further? [2] If you would like a different role for the marine then you basicly need to redo all three races. Basicly the whole game.
[1] I think before anybody can answer to you, you have to explain what you mean with this phrase. Because cost for cost and supply for supply, marines beat zealots and zerglings in any mid-high amount. And timingwise, marine+wall completely crushes those units before those high amounts are reached.
[2] I don't know why. If you were to change the marine to a unit that e.g. works well against light but not so well against armored, and compensated Terran with slightly better armored counters (e.g. stronger tanks and moving-shot vikings vs air), I don't see why you'd have to redo the other races. Maybe a tiny tweak here or there to prevent early stalker or roach rushes to kill you, but this could surely be done without redoing the other races. (similarily to how you could change FFs or Swarm Hosts without having to change Terran)
On July 21 2014 23:59 gTank wrote:
What about moving some bio and mech requirements to new buildings like the academy or science facility?
And make reactors more expensive (like 100/100 each)?
What would that achieve? Terran's setup costs are already a little higher (dependend on the particular setup of course).
Also more expensive reactors than they are now would just lead to people not using them at all and instead building double the amount of production facilities, especially in the case of barracks.
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As for Terran I just hope for a Raven rework in LotV in order that the Raven will have a better synergy with mech, perhaps it could form the missing link to make it viable against Protoss?
For now, in HotS, I hope it is still possible to do something about TvP late game. I feel Blizzard kept in the +shield damage with the widow mine because they feel Protoss is already slightly favoured in TvP, so they don't feel the urge to (un)nerf the mine in order to make templar play possible for example which is actually of importance to enliven the matchup. I am not quite sure how to do it though some people argue it is the impossibility to punish greedy plays from Protoss.
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On July 22 2014 00:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 23:55 gneGne wrote:
What is wrong with the marine? [1]It has been balanced in context of the zealot and the zergling. I don't see the problem, please explain further? [2] If you would like a different role for the marine then you basicly need to redo all three races. Basicly the whole game. [1] I think before anybody can answer to you, you have to explain what you mean with this phrase. Because cost for cost and supply for supply, marines beat zealots and zerglings in any mid-high amount. And timingwise, marine+wall completely crushes those units before those high amounts are reached. [2] I don't know why. If you were to change the marine to a unit that e.g. works well against light but not so well against armored, and compensated Terran with slightly better armored counters (e.g. stronger tanks and moving-shot vikings vs air), I don't see why you'd have to redo the other races. Maybe a tiny tweak here or there to prevent early stalker or roach rushes to kill you, but this could surely be done without redoing the other races. (similarily to how you could change FFs or Swarm Hosts without having to change Terran)
I am not quite sure where you get (1) from. If you are talking about mid-to-high amounts of marines, you are already talking about mid game where I presume not the marines themselves, but the combination with medivacs are the problem which make marines so cost effective? However, the same can be said here about units in combination with zealots and zerglings. Timingwise I also see no problem, are you really saying that pushes against terran are impossible because of supply/bunker walls? Terran can lose the game in the early stages even when a wall was made.
As for (2), if you feel the need to introduce a new way in which the damage of the marine works, you have to do the same for zealots and zerglings against armored units. Or would it be fair that only terran has to build an army that counters either armour or light while zerg and protoss don't have to because their basic unit are one size fits all? It is an interesting option, but it would involve changing all three races like I mentioned.
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On July 21 2014 23:55 gneGne wrote:
What is wrong with the marine? It has been balanced in context of the zealot and the zergling. I don't see the problem, please explain further? If you would like a different role for the marine then you basicly need to redo all three races. Basicly the whole game.
It hasn't quite been balanced the way you suggest. The marine is far more powerful than both the zergling and the zealot and therein lies the problem. It is a cheap, very accessible unit that can be massed and is very dangerous for a large portion of the game, and it requires high tech, gas intensive units to counter effectively. Zealots and lings can get shut down by roaches, static defense, forcefields etc. Marines with a few medivacs don't really care about any of those.
Would terran need more changes to accommodate any potential nerfs to the marine? Yes. Is it going to be easy or straightforward? Likely not. Is it an avenue worth exploring? I think so.
For now, in HotS, I hope it is still possible to do something about TvP late game. I feel Blizzard kept in the +shield damage with the widow mine because they feel Protoss is already slightly favoured in TvP, so they don't feel the urge to (un)nerf the mine in order to make templar play possible for example which is actually of importance to enliven the matchup. I am not quite sure how to do it though some people argue it is the impossibility to punish greedy plays from Protoss.
That's more an issue with protoss than terran, The MSC really did kill off any remaining vestige of fun in the protoss MUs, PO more or less immunizing them to early pressure is just such a bad way to handle the mess that is PvP. It seems kind of like a lost cause at this point.
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On July 22 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 23:55 gneGne wrote:
What is wrong with the marine? It has been balanced in context of the zealot and the zergling. I don't see the problem, please explain further? If you would like a different role for the marine then you basicly need to redo all three races. Basicly the whole game. It hasn't quite been balanced the way you suggest. The marine is far more powerful than both the zergling and the zealot and therein lies the problem. It is a cheap, very accessible unit that can be massed and is very dangerous for a large portion of the game, and it requires high tech, gas intensive units to counter effectively. Zealots and lings can get shut down by roaches, static defense, forcefields etc. Marines with a few medivacs don't really care about any of those. Would terran need more changes to accommodate any potential nerfs to the marine? Yes. Is it going to be easy or straightforward? Likely not. Is it an avenue worth exploring? I think so.
Yes, maybe. But notice... WITH medivacs. Wouldn't that be a problem with the medivac rather than the marine? Zerglings and Zealots are really strong too when accompanied with other supporting units. Aren't you making an unfair comparison?
See, choices were made when the basic units were put into the game. They chose to make the basic units really strong from the early to the late game (when accompanied by other units). This was a design choice which you may agree or disagree with, but it was a fundamental choice.
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On July 22 2014 00:32 gneGne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 00:07 Big J wrote:On July 21 2014 23:55 gneGne wrote:
What is wrong with the marine? [1]It has been balanced in context of the zealot and the zergling. I don't see the problem, please explain further? [2] If you would like a different role for the marine then you basicly need to redo all three races. Basicly the whole game. [1] I think before anybody can answer to you, you have to explain what you mean with this phrase. Because cost for cost and supply for supply, marines beat zealots and zerglings in any mid-high amount. And timingwise, marine+wall completely crushes those units before those high amounts are reached. [2] I don't know why. If you were to change the marine to a unit that e.g. works well against light but not so well against armored, and compensated Terran with slightly better armored counters (e.g. stronger tanks and moving-shot vikings vs air), I don't see why you'd have to redo the other races. Maybe a tiny tweak here or there to prevent early stalker or roach rushes to kill you, but this could surely be done without redoing the other races. (similarily to how you could change FFs or Swarm Hosts without having to change Terran) I am not quite sure where you get (1) from. If you are talking about mid-to-high amounts of marines, you are already talking about mid game where I presume not the marines themselves, but the combination with medivacs are the problem which make marines so cost effective? However, the same can be said here about units in combination with zealots and zerglings. Timingwise I also see no problem, are you really saying that pushes against terran are impossible because of supply/bunker walls? As for (2), if you feel the need to introduce a new way in which the damage of the marine works, you have to do the same for zealots and zerglings against armored units. Or would it be fair that only terran has to build an army that counters either armour or light while zerg and protoss don't have to because their basic unit are one size fits all? It is an interesting option, but it would involve changing all three races like I mentioned.
Again, tell me what you meant with (1). If you bring other units in the equation, I don't see what the whole point is to first say "Marines are balanced in the context of Zerglings/Zealots". So, what do you mean with this phrase? In what way are they balanced against Zerglings and Zealots?
About (2), just because a unit stat says "+ vs armored/light", doesn't mean the unit is bad against something else (e.g. blink stalkers). Or vis verca. Just for a lot of those units, the "+ vs something" values tend to be mid to high, while something like 5+1vs light on marines would still leave them as a decent all around unit. And you could keep the zealot at 8*2damage vs everything, because it isn't a decent all around unit to begin with (no antiair at all; melee attribute making it weak against bigger ranged balls, etc). In either case, you will want something more against a blink rush.
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On July 22 2014 00:41 gneGne wrote:
Yes, maybe. But notice... WITH medivacs. Wouldn't that be a problem with the medivac rather than the marine? Zerglings and Zealots are really strong too when accompanied with other supporting units. Aren't you making an unfair comparison?
No, this is not quite correct. Lings and zealots do not gain exponential power when supported by medivacs the way marines do, they just don't have the offensive output or versatility to make use of that healing and mobility like marines do. Just try it, play a 2v2 and support bunch of lings and zealots with medivacs, it's not the same thing. The basic units of zerg and protoss really are nowhere near as strong as the marine, as any pro game will show.
Just because marines also require medivacs to operate at full capacity, it does not make them less strong. You can still fight far more gas heavy armies with marines as your main combat unit. We could substitute the medivac with the medic and the same thing would apply. Medivacs are a general support unit that benefit anything they can heal, obviously more powerful units will get more out of the healing.
See, choices were made when the basic units were put into the game. They chose to make the basic units really strong from the early to the late game (when accompanied by other units). This was a design choice which you may agree or disagree with, but it was a fundamental choice.
You have no idea whether that is the case or not. The only people who would know for sure are those who would seriously attempt to implement a change like this. Simply asserting that such is the case does not make it true.
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On July 20 2014 17:52 VArsovskiSC wrote:@pure.Wasted - finally you got my point  (I was refering a reply to the "Happy's Terran being better players overall" statement discussion from above, so that's why I started they way I did before) @Teoita - the REAL difference between the Reaver and the Colo is that Colo can happily kept in the army all game long, whilest Reavers were usually effective while comming from the flanks, so - that's the real difference, doesn't have to be exactly the reaver, but still - something that will do best splash damage if coming from the rears or flanks of sth (although Templars do that already, it would still be a better for the game-dynamic for it to do so rather than being best while kept in the deathball)
Maybe if colossus fired more in a forward pattern ( V or X ) rather than two beams that perfectly overlap the front lines... (think of how hellion flanks/micro work).
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On July 22 2014 00:37 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 23:55 gneGne wrote:
What is wrong with the marine? It has been balanced in context of the zealot and the zergling. I don't see the problem, please explain further? If you would like a different role for the marine then you basicly need to redo all three races. Basicly the whole game. It hasn't quite been balanced the way you suggest. The marine is far more powerful than both the zergling and the zealot and therein lies the problem. It is a cheap, very accessible unit that can be massed and is very dangerous for a large portion of the game, and it requires high tech, gas intensive units to counter effectively. Zealots and lings can get shut down by roaches, static defense, forcefields etc. Marines with a few medivacs don't really care about any of those.
Maybe the reason why marines are so much better than lings and zealots is purely due to the way early game was at the beginning of the game?
Like lings being very easily massed early into baneling bust where the terran would not be able to do anything with a more even unit because he can only get those units one at a time. Maybe also a reaction to the heavily used 4gates at the time.
I mean people were often displeased by the marines in 2011 as well but a lot of time it was assumed that the reason was terrible mechanics in warp gate and larvaes.
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Terran macro mechanics are definitely part of their problem, one really bad fight usually spells the end of the game for them. Since they can't get their basic units out as quickly, or cohesively, as protoss or zerg, they have to be more potent.
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Why people would want a redesign of the marine while it's the unit in itself that make the best games in history of sc2. That's stupid.
And even a minimal change to the marine would completly break the game for years.
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On July 22 2014 01:31 Faust852 wrote:
Why people would want a redesign of the marine while it's the unit in itself that make the best games in history of sc2. That's stupid.
And even a minimal change to the marine would completly break the game for years.
Maybe in order to buff other terran units and encourage more diverse ways of plain terran. Nobody is saying that marines would be nerfed into oblivion.
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EPT
