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On July 17 2014 03:46 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 03:15 purakushi wrote:Q: What are your thoughts on the opinion that there needs to be more of a micro-controlling aspect and the controls now are too automated and easy?
A: We feel that some of this problem has been shown among the Protoss players where there was less of a difference in terms of control between the very top and mid to top tier players. This is something that isn’t easy to fix within Heart of the Swarm, but something the development team is working very hard on before the beta of our next expansion. We feel that ultimately it is important to make the very top tier players in each race differentiate themselves through such changes (to micro). Please. SC2 needs more differentiation. Everything and everyone is the same. =\ +1 to changes to warpgate +1 to BW units and units that feel important and unique +1 comebacks +1 economy revamp +1 "balance" should be a far second to good design/fun But since it is good to have a (friendly) Brood War unit come into StarCraft II by changing the design and upgrading it, we are in talks about this and are testing some things. I hope they do not mean automating/making it easier to use by 'upgrading it'. T_T LotV needs to drastically change SC2. Look at Starbow for ideas. Last chance, Blizzard. Please surprise me. It seems like David Kim gets it. He insinuated that he's aware of the design problem right now within HotS and that they're carefully "debating" the changes.
I hope so. That's the part I was going to quote as well. I really hope it's not just lip service that it's usually been in the past.
I'd still be fine with them coming out with something new and fantastic, just not another swarm host.
On July 17 2014 04:24 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 04:11 Ctone23 wrote:On July 17 2014 04:03 bduddy wrote:On July 17 2014 03:22 eviltomahawk wrote:On July 17 2014 03:15 purakushi wrote:Q: What are your thoughts on the opinion that there needs to be more of a micro-controlling aspect and the controls now are too automated and easy?
A: We feel that some of this problem has been shown among the Protoss players where there was less of a difference in terms of control between the very top and mid to top tier players. This is something that isn’t easy to fix within Heart of the Swarm, but something the development team is working very hard on before the beta of our next expansion. We feel that ultimately it is important to make the very top tier players in each race differentiate themselves through such changes (to micro). Please. SC2 needs more differentiation. Everything and everyone is the same. =\ +1 to changes to warpgate +1 to BW units But since it is good to have a (friendly) Brood War unit come into StarCraft II by changing the design and upgrading it, we are in talks about this and are testing some things. I hope they do not mean automating/making it easier to use by 'upgrading it'. T_T Right when it got removed just before the WoL beta, the SC2 Lurker was basically a Hive-tech, long-range, anti-armor unit very much like the Siege Tank, unlike the BW Lurker. Design changes could be like that. Isn't there a Lurker in the HoTS campaign? How does that work? Yeah, you can morph a Hydra into a lurker, or at least I think it was the hydra. I thought it was cool but i'm no balance designer so no idea how it would work on the ladder. Would definitely help defect bio run-bys  It was definitely a Hydra morph. I forgot how the campaign Lurker worked, but it may have been like the BW Lurker. There was also an alternative Lurker morph called the Impaler that attacked like a Sunken Colony. I kinda hope that when LotV comes out, Blizzard would support an official game mode with units and upgrades from all three campaigns. There are already custom maps like that, but it would be sick cool to have a casual matchmaking mode like that.
Not sure I ever saw that idea before, but I'd really like it.
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On July 17 2014 03:15 purakushi wrote:Show nested quote +Q: What are your thoughts on the opinion that there needs to be more of a micro-controlling aspect and the controls now are too automated and easy?
A: We feel that some of this problem has been shown among the Protoss players where there was less of a difference in terms of control between the very top and mid to top tier players. This is something that isn’t easy to fix within Heart of the Swarm, but something the development team is working very hard on before the beta of our next expansion. We feel that ultimately it is important to make the very top tier players in each race differentiate themselves through such changes (to micro). Please. SC2 needs more differentiation. Everything and everyone is the same. =\ +1 to changes to warpgate +1 to BW units and units that feel important and unique +1 comebacks +1 economy revamp +1 "balance" should be a far second to good design/fun Show nested quote +But since it is good to have a (friendly) Brood War unit come into StarCraft II by changing the design and upgrading it, we are in talks about this and are testing some things. I hope they do not mean automating/making it easier to use by 'upgrading it'. T_T LotV needs to drastically change SC2. Look at Starbow for ideas. Last chance, Blizzard. Please surprise me.
I'm going to contradict your opinion. I don't want a Brood War II, I really like the game that was released as SC II: WoL and HotS. You know, you should maybe consider to play some Starbow or Brood War, because that's why that stuff exists, and stop saying "SC2 should be like the game I want it to be". I do like Age of Empires, but I'm not saying "do some AoE mechanics to SC2 because else it sucks", which is what you're saying tbh.
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We feel that some of this problem has been shown among the Protoss players where there was less of a difference in terms of control between the very top and mid to top tier players. This is something that isn’t easy to fix within Heart of the Swarm, but something the development team is working very hard on before the beta of our next expansion. We feel that ultimately it is important to make the very top tier players in each race differentiate themselves through such changes (to micro).
A: Units like the Battlecruiser and Carrier aren’t easy to control, but are units that don’t require a lot of skills whether you are a top class player or lower class player. If we were to make changes, it would be first to fix the differentiating factor and then strengthening them.
These are the important ones in my opinion.
If they really take this approach for LotV and really consider changing things for the sake of diverse gameplay, it can only become even more awesome than current SC2.
Also I like that they do communicate these kinds of thoughts, that they say they take feedback very seriously, but also that they do not intend to change things like Warp Gate just for the sake of testing some theory that may be popular within certain groups of the community.
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I don't understand this obsession with the widow mine. It's fine as it is now. I want to see mech and tanks in TvP. Nerf the immortal. At least nerf it's shield ability so things can hurt them.
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On July 17 2014 05:58 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 03:15 purakushi wrote:Q: What are your thoughts on the opinion that there needs to be more of a micro-controlling aspect and the controls now are too automated and easy?
A: We feel that some of this problem has been shown among the Protoss players where there was less of a difference in terms of control between the very top and mid to top tier players. This is something that isn’t easy to fix within Heart of the Swarm, but something the development team is working very hard on before the beta of our next expansion. We feel that ultimately it is important to make the very top tier players in each race differentiate themselves through such changes (to micro). Please. SC2 needs more differentiation. Everything and everyone is the same. =\ +1 to changes to warpgate +1 to BW units and units that feel important and unique +1 comebacks +1 economy revamp +1 "balance" should be a far second to good design/fun But since it is good to have a (friendly) Brood War unit come into StarCraft II by changing the design and upgrading it, we are in talks about this and are testing some things. I hope they do not mean automating/making it easier to use by 'upgrading it'. T_T LotV needs to drastically change SC2. Look at Starbow for ideas. Last chance, Blizzard. Please surprise me. I'm going to contradict your opinion. I don't want a Brood War II, I really like the game that was released as SC II: WoL and HotS. You know, you should maybe consider to play some Starbow or Brood War, because that's why that stuff exists, and stop saying "SC2 should be like the game I want it to be". I do like Age of Empires, but I'm not saying "do some AoE mechanics to SC2 because else it sucks", which is what you're saying tbh.
It's not that I necessarily want it to be more like BW. I want SC2 to be a better game. Whether or not ideas come from BW or wherever makes no difference, but there are already great designs out there that Blizzard should be open to. Not putting them in SC2 just because they were in BW should not be a reason to not include the mechanic or unit. Sure, BW could have been better, but this is all about solving the many issues that SC2 has.
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On July 17 2014 06:29 BruMeister wrote:
I don't understand this obsession with the widow mine. It's fine as it is now. I want to see mech and tanks in TvZ. Nerf the immortal. At least nerf it's shield ability so things can hurt them.
I could see giving tanks something like +5 damage vs shields per vehicle weapons upgrade.
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we receive feedback from many people. For example, from the pro-players, shoutcasters, forums, communities, ladder statistics, top-tier ladder results, tournament results and etc. We check various aspects and make a decision after taking everything into mind.
We need a place and a system to aggregate all pro and shoutcaster opinions with the names on them. If overwhelming majority of the recognized community members will say that we need this and that then DK will be unable to hide behind this dodgy F word "we do what we do based on some top secret feedbacks - primary from my butt."
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We feel that some of this problem has been shown among the Protoss players where there was less of a difference in terms of control between the very top and mid to top tier players.
So glad this aspect of SC2 has been officially acknowledged. People have been saying it for years. Increasing the diversity of mechanics and strategy is definitely the right way to go so amazing players can show how much better they really are.
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Q: Some of the cast of SHS(including special guest Flash) said that the patches are released too often. What are your thoughts on this?
A: Korean players tend to give similar feedback, but the western players tell us absolutely the opposite and say that patches should be made more quickly.
Com'on
the only reason why widow mine got nerf "during the beginning of hots" aka "innovation era" it's because teamliquid users were whining too much
During that momment, it was absolutely true that zergs were getting immuned to the widow mines.
and look at the current situation. terrans have suffered about a year.
even DK admits that widowmine nerf was the terrible mistake he ever made.
->" For the widow mine on the other hand, we received a lot of feedback saying that this is too much of a problem in TvZ in Heart of the Swarm. While we received many feedbacks from the players and community, we also felt that it was too strong, leading us to nerf the widow mine. However, for that instance, we feel that maybe it would have been better to leave it up to the players a little bit more. "
so, my conclusion is. Western people have to stop whining and crying for the balance.
David Kim have killed SC2 balance because of that.
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On July 17 2014 06:48 Cheeseling wrote:Show nested quote +we receive feedback from many people. For example, from the pro-players, shoutcasters, forums, communities, ladder statistics, top-tier ladder results, tournament results and etc. We check various aspects and make a decision after taking everything into mind. We need a place and a system to aggregate all pro and shoutcaster opinions with the names on them. If overwhelming majority of the recognized community members will say that we need this and that then DK will be unable to hide behind this dodgy F word "we do what we do based on some top secret feedbacks - primary from my butt."
I heard a long while back that there may have been a hidden pro-only forum on Battle.net. I dunno if it still exists, if ever. There is already a lot of evidence of David Kim talking with pros. People have posted B.net chat screenshots with DK. Some players have talked about exchanging emails with DK. I guess people don't feel like sharing these conversations explicitly too much.
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The thing is, balance is not the biggest problem in the game right now. Yeah it could use a bit of tweaks here and there (which they're doing). What it really needs is a major design overhaul.
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On July 17 2014 05:58 boxerfred wrote:
I'm going to contradict your opinion. I don't want a Brood War II, I really like the game that was released as SC II: WoL and HotS. You know, you should maybe consider to play some Starbow or Brood War, because that's why that stuff exists, and stop saying "SC2 should be like the game I want it to be". I do like Age of Empires, but I'm not saying "do some AoE mechanics to SC2 because else it sucks", which is what you're saying tbh.
I'm going to utterly agree with your contradiction.
I notice nobody is quoting this bit of the interview:
There have been some misunderstandings in communicating with the Korean players because they tend to say that their feedback was not taken into account. The reality is that some Protoss player will say that Protoss should be buffed, Zergs will say Protoss are too strong and should be nerfed, and there will be another player that will say the exact opposite to both of them.
The never-ending problem is that 99% of players and spectators, and even 95%+ of top pros have absolutely no idea about game design and balancing. Being good at playing a game makes you good at designing one in about the same way that eating a lot makes you a good chef.
So what happens is that in forums, the most plausibly and forcefully stated opinions formed by people who have no experience in the field they're opining on get repeated so often by other people who equally don't know what they're talking about that at some point they become accepted truths on the basis of neither evidence nor rigorous testing of the alternatives. And then when Blizzard says "we tested that but it didn't have the effect you say it would", posters invariably believe the opinion of the person who hasn't actually implemented the change and tested it over the person who has, because "lol David Kim, amirite?"
(And then occasionally, as with the Mothership Core vision nerf, Blizzard will push something live that they already know from testing isn't particularly effective, presumably just to shut the community up.)
And when the community actually does put its alternatives to the test, they unsurprisingly turn out not to be magical solutions to everyone's problems.
I dropped a pretty significant donation on one of the higher profile Starbow tournaments because I was genuinely interested in what pro players would do with the game, and wanted to help make sure there was an incentive for them to compete. There were a couple of fun games, but the promised "lots of come-backs and battles spread out over the map" didn't eventuate.
It was mostly mid-game timing pushes that won the game if they succeeded and lost it if they failed, with the buffed defenders advantage just making the game drag out pointlessly after it was already over. Which I guess means they at least partly succeeded in making the game more like Brood War. 
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With the design philosophy they have, I really don't see what will keep this game going 2 years after the release of LotV.
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On July 17 2014 07:18 Noocta wrote:
With the design philosophy they have, I really don't see what will keep this game going 2 years after the release of LotV.
We will keep it going .
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On July 17 2014 07:14 carlfish wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2014 05:58 boxerfred wrote:
I'm going to contradict your opinion. I don't want a Brood War II, I really like the game that was released as SC II: WoL and HotS. You know, you should maybe consider to play some Starbow or Brood War, because that's why that stuff exists, and stop saying "SC2 should be like the game I want it to be". I do like Age of Empires, but I'm not saying "do some AoE mechanics to SC2 because else it sucks", which is what you're saying tbh.
I'm going to utterly agree with your contradiction. I notice nobody is quoting this bit of the interview: Show nested quote + There have been some misunderstandings in communicating with the Korean players because they tend to say that their feedback was not taken into account. The reality is that some Protoss player will say that Protoss should be buffed, Zergs will say Protoss are too strong and should be nerfed, and there will be another player that will say the exact opposite to both of them. The never-ending problem is that 99% of players and spectators, and even 95%+ of top pros have absolutely no idea about game design and balancing. Being good at playing a game makes you good at designing one in about the same way that eating a lot makes you a good chef. So what happens is that in forums, the most plausibly and forcefully stated opinions formed by people who have no experience in the field they're opining on get repeated so often by other people who equally don't know what they're talking about that at some point they become accepted truths on the basis of neither evidence nor rigorous testing of the alternatives. And then when Blizzard says "we tested that but it didn't have the effect you say it would", posters invariably believe the opinion of the person who hasn't actually implemented the change and tested it over the person who has, because "lol David Kim, amirite?"
I appreciate your tone of calm rationality, but the fact of the matter is the SC2 design team simply doesn't inspire much faith at this point. They don't have any clear vision for what they want from this game other than "50-50," and even if they did, I doubt they have the balls to really go for it.
Take David Kim's statement that they're looking into ways for top Protosses to distinguish themselves from lower tier Protosses. On the surface, that sounds fantastic! Problem is, 1) this is something people have been talking about since literally the WOL beta, where have DK and his people been for the last 4 years that they've suddenly realized this is a problem that needs solving, but not with the first expansion pack which cost us money? 2) their fix will invariably be "introduce one new Protoss unit that takes some skill to use" which does nothing for 99% of games, and they're not going to touch their precious Zealot/Colossus/Immortal/Dark Templar/Tempest/Void Ray designs which are the ones that actually matter, so this great sentiment will never materialize in a meaningful way, and 3) there's a chance it won't materialize period!!! Blizzard said they wanted mech in TvP for HOTS, and what did we get? Nothing. Did they even try? If you want to count the Warhound as trying, sure, they gave it their A++ effort.
Fans aren't always right... but sometimes they are. Sometimes it's obvious that they're right. The fact that the Colossus shouldn't have made it out of WOL Beta in its current state is a fact, and the fact that it's taken 4 years for Blizzard to CONSIDER doing something about this (maybe possibly) is a travesty.
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Make warpgate on a spellcaster like the oracle so it has some serious use lategame and will feel strategic about it.
Then remove warpgate from gateways and make zealot and stalker perhaps better. Nerf blink and charge.
More micro war between zealots/stalker vs bio and zerg AND get the macro war in there to, thats why i believe there is a good thing to just remove the warpgate.
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Q: What are your thoughts on the opinion that there needs to be more of a micro-controlling aspect and the controls now are too automated and easy?
A: We feel that some of this problem has been shown among the Protoss players where there was less of a difference in terms of control between the very top and mid to top tier players. This is something that isn’t easy to fix within Heart of the Swarm, but something the development team is working very hard on before the beta of our next expansion. We feel that ultimately it is important to make the very top tier players in each race differentiate themselves through such changes (to micro).
Q: Is there anything that you can hint on Legacy of the Void?
A: What we can tell you now is that the StarCraft II development team has been working hard on the next expansion for a long time. As for multiplayer, we not only consider what we feel would be ideal for the new expansion, but also listen, debate, and test the feedback we received from our community, players, and etc. to figure out what is best.
At least it's nice to know that they're working on LotV.
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A game of SC2 has feedback that is just too wild for a great competitive game. It's a pretty balanced game between players A and B until A or B makes a move that gives them an insurmountable lead and they can then bludgeon their opponent to death with their unstoppable force.
An ideal game progression is one where the lead changes hands but the better player eventually wins.
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On July 17 2014 08:20 pure.Wasted wrote:
Fans aren't always right... but sometimes they are. Sometimes it's obvious that they're right. The fact that the Colossus shouldn't have made it out of WOL Beta in its current state is a fact, and the fact that it's taken 4 years for Blizzard to CONSIDER doing something about this (maybe possibly) is a travesty.
And yet they keep buffing the widow mine, which will lead to more colossus play in PvT since it's the obvious counter. They should remove the bonus damage to shields now that they're bringing back the old widow mine, and buff vikings instead to discourage colossus play.
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On July 17 2014 06:58 neverlose9999 wrote:
so, my conclusion is. Western people have to stop whining and crying for the balance.
David Kim have killed SC2 balance because of that.
Happening since WoL beta. Koreans cry as well though, but they know that every change hurts their training. Just imagine Mech would be the only thing that works vs Z. Terrans would just get destroyed for 2 years straight until they could compete again. (have to train mech and bio instead of only bio and hope for the best in TvT)
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EPT
