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On July 12 2014 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The mine buff is so idiotic on its current form it hurts my soul. I remember the mine being a "stale and imbalanced unit" with 1.75 radius, so I don't understand how they can think this buff could be alright -I kinda guess they're testing it so that nobody cries when the buff is reduced, but anyway. And still nothing done about +shields damage, because those mines will definitely bury templars openings (not to mention mine drops which will become speed oracle 2.0).
WMs was not imbalanced, it was "stale". Whatever "stale" means.
The WM is still weaker than before and protoss did well in the past right?
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Italy12247 Posts
Considering the +shield bonus that was added to it, after this buff the mine will be at its strongest in PvT. Again, protoss are doing fine because mines are worthless vs colossus while making templar builds absolutely not viable.
No idea about TvZ though.
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On July 12 2014 21:30 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The mine buff is so idiotic on its current form it hurts my soul. I remember the mine being a "stale and imbalanced unit" with 1.75 radius, so I don't understand how they can think this buff could be alright -I kinda guess they're testing it so that nobody cries when the buff is reduced, but anyway. And still nothing done about +shields damage, because those mines will definitely bury templars openings (not to mention mine drops which will become speed oracle 2.0). WMs was not imbalanced, it was "stale". Whatever "stale" means. The WM is still weaker than before and protoss did well in the past right?
Pardon me but with the buff the widow mine would be far better than before in TvP thanks to the absurd +shields damage (one shots probes in 2 radius + damage in 2.5 radius). Original mine did 40 flat damage in a 1.75 radius (which was fine to me, when I say "stale and imbalanced" I only repeat what people used to say about it).
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On July 12 2014 21:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 21:30 Faust852 wrote:On July 12 2014 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The mine buff is so idiotic on its current form it hurts my soul. I remember the mine being a "stale and imbalanced unit" with 1.75 radius, so I don't understand how they can think this buff could be alright -I kinda guess they're testing it so that nobody cries when the buff is reduced, but anyway. And still nothing done about +shields damage, because those mines will definitely bury templars openings (not to mention mine drops which will become speed oracle 2.0). WMs was not imbalanced, it was "stale". Whatever "stale" means. The WM is still weaker than before and protoss did well in the past right? Pardon me but with the buff the widow mine would be far better than before in TvP thanks to the absurd +shields damage (one shots probes in 2 radius + damage in 2.5 radius). Original mine did 40 flat damage in a 1.75 radius (which was fine to me, when I say "stale and imbalanced" I only repeat what people used to say about it).
On July 09 2014 09:08 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +- Widow Mine splash radius increase
This will allow Terran to be stronger in the mid/late games in both matchups. We’ve also seen feedback that the Widow Mine splash radius increase doesn’t buff late game Terran, however we feel that this type of mid-game buff also carries over into a late game buff.
Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5.
Good. Very good. Well, let's recap the different states of the Mine throughout HotS: ![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/421736Minea.jpg) 1 = Original Mine 2 = Post-nerf Mine after patch 2.0.12 3 = Mine after +shields buff 4 = Mine with the proposed change Against Zerg specifically (comparison between the original Mine and the proposed one): ![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/983970Mineb2.jpg) The critical one-shot of banes in the current secondary area (from 1.25 to 1.5) is here again. That's perfect. For the rest, we'll have to see if the average amount of damage in the extra area (from 1.75 to 2.5) is adequate. Additionally, people shouldn't forget that Mines deal friendly fire, and Terran has to deal with that too. ForGG may not be pleased with that aspect. Against Protoss specifically (comparison between the original Mine and the proposed one): ![[image loading]](http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/947039Minec2.jpg) * Depending on the amount of shield left. ** Probes are one-shot. The positive points: - Mine drops and thus 1-1-1 builds would be a powerful early game threat anew. Those Mines would be even more deadly than the original ones for Protoss' mineral lines (they would kill Probes in one shot up to 2 radius, instead of 1.75 at the beginning of HotS), but of course Protoss have mastered the defence of such attacks since then and would deal with it better. That being said, sloppiness would be heavily punished and that's a good thing (risky builds without detection in time would also suffer more). By repercussion, Protoss might have to concede Cannons in their mineral lines and maybe some extra stalks if they can't rule out a Mine drop, thus toning down their builds a bit. That's a good point.
- 7g blink would die. You can't all-in without detection if a Mine reaching your mineral line threatens to kill 10 Probes every 40 seconds. Someone explained that recently in some lengthy post; can't remember where though. Oh well.
- Drops with Mines would be more powerful in midgame. There may be more incentive for Terran to use Mines against blink/colo (while they're currently mostly useless against that style).
- Mines might now be useful in lategame? Written with a big question mark, but they might have some use to hold the scenario of a quick Zealots/Archons remax.
The negative point: Protoss will be further pushed away from Templar openings, a style allowing better distinction and producing better games than the dreadful blink colo dual forge boredom. Another problem to consider is that Blizzard tends to propose a bigger change for their test maps compared with the actual values they aim for. For instance, they had initially announced a reduction of the Mine radius to 1.1 (!) to sweeten the pill. Show nested quote +- Thor Attack priority changed to use AA weapon first
Because Thors are mostly core against Zerg, and the AA weapon is the preferred weapon when using Thors, we’d like to try this change.
Will be practical/useful in some situations and a pain in others, so we'll have to see. As for aberrant priorities, how about 25 Vikings in autopilot don't shoot at the first Observer they see while your bio evaporates to the 6 colos behind? Show nested quote +- Time Warp duration decreased from 30 to 15
We’d like to try out this change for 3 reasons: Reduce the strength of various all-ins that combo with offensive Time Warps, reduce general Protoss main army strength, and hopefully increase micro opportunities against the spell.
Why not, but in most situations the trapped units will already be dead in the span of the first 15 seconds (no idea what kind of micro they expect against Time Warp other than right clicking trapped units out of the area), so in many scenarii this is mostly cosmetic as far as TvP goes. A reduced radius or a lesser slowing would be better tracks to explore. Implementing a cast point and a casting backswing animation to the MSC so it doesn't instantly cast its spells (except Recall given the use) would also be nice. That being said, there are situations in which this change would come in handy, and all in all it cannot hurt (in TvP) so OK.
WM will now kill about 2 probes more with the additional range.
Won't really change shit against zealot since 40 HPs isn't that much.
Protoss are currently OP against terran and terran need better harassment options.
Everything looks good on paper with this patch.
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On July 12 2014 20:59 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 20:18 egrimm wrote:Well, ... Also I'm not sure if I like removing the "control aspect" to target fire mutalisks during fights even if it would help terrans for more room to micro their other forces ... Also I'd like to see some changes to Hellbats like: - Remove bio tag BUT buff HP slightly to compensate (+10-15 ?) - Maybe slightly buff dmg (+2-5 ?) BUT reduce speed ... My 2 cents  Also I don't like people wanting tank buffs against bio who think that the TvT mirror match-up is irrelevant when considering the buffs. The TvT matchup is one of the most interesting, buff tanks and it will be mech v mech only - and we have another matchup where T is pigeon holed into one strategy. TvT is the only T match-up where we get to see nearly every T unit used, including cattlebruisers.
It will be mech vs mech anyway as soon as mech gets okay to play in any other matchup. People just use Bio, because its all they do anyway. No reason to learn mech if its only for 1/10th of your games. Mech is just stronger especially since the air transition is now essential upgrade free and the thor only has to fear yamatos otherwise you can stay ground only.
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On July 12 2014 21:39 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 20:59 DeadByDawn wrote:On July 12 2014 20:18 egrimm wrote:Well, ... Also I'm not sure if I like removing the "control aspect" to target fire mutalisks during fights even if it would help terrans for more room to micro their other forces ... Also I'd like to see some changes to Hellbats like: - Remove bio tag BUT buff HP slightly to compensate (+10-15 ?) - Maybe slightly buff dmg (+2-5 ?) BUT reduce speed ... My 2 cents Also I don't like people wanting tank buffs against bio who think that the TvT mirror match-up is irrelevant when considering the buffs. The TvT matchup is one of the most interesting, buff tanks and it will be mech v mech only - and we have another matchup where T is pigeon holed into one strategy. TvT is the only T match-up where we get to see nearly every T unit used, including cattlebruisers. It will be mech vs mech anyway as soon as mech gets okay to play in any other matchup. People just use Bio, because its all they do anyway. No reason to learn mech if its only for 1/10th of your games. Mech is just stronger especially since the air transition is now essential upgrade free and the thor only has to fear yamatos otherwise you can stay ground only.
I firmly believe mech is already much stornger than bio in TvT. There might be a slight edge for bio at the very top level of control (best koreans). But bellow that, even top foreigner terrans usually favor mech in TvT.
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If 40 HPs isn't that much, please make storm 120 damage. This is stupid. And 2 more probes early game is important ! I think you're underestimating how deadly the combination of this buff + shields damage could be (then again, it's good to see it tested).
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On July 12 2014 21:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If 40 HPs isn't that much, please make storm 120 damage. This is stupid. And 2 more probes early game is important ! I think you're underestimating how deadly this combination of this buff + shields damage could be (then again, it's good to see it tested).
Yeah you might have to learn to micro your units. Sad Zaelot.
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Italy12247 Posts
On July 12 2014 21:39 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 21:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 12 2014 21:30 Faust852 wrote:On July 12 2014 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The mine buff is so idiotic on its current form it hurts my soul. I remember the mine being a "stale and imbalanced unit" with 1.75 radius, so I don't understand how they can think this buff could be alright -I kinda guess they're testing it so that nobody cries when the buff is reduced, but anyway. And still nothing done about +shields damage, because those mines will definitely bury templars openings (not to mention mine drops which will become speed oracle 2.0). WMs was not imbalanced, it was "stale". Whatever "stale" means. The WM is still weaker than before and protoss did well in the past right? Pardon me but with the buff the widow mine would be far better than before in TvP thanks to the absurd +shields damage (one shots probes in 2 radius + damage in 2.5 radius). Original mine did 40 flat damage in a 1.75 radius (which was fine to me, when I say "stale and imbalanced" I only repeat what people used to say about it). Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 09:08 TheDwf wrote:- Widow Mine splash radius increase
This will allow Terran to be stronger in the mid/late games in both matchups. We’ve also seen feedback that the Widow Mine splash radius increase doesn’t buff late game Terran, however we feel that this type of mid-game buff also carries over into a late game buff.
Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5.
Good. Very good. Well, let's recap the different states of the Mine throughout HotS: 1 = Original Mine 2 = Post-nerf Mine after patch 2.0.12 3 = Mine after +shields buff 4 = Mine with the proposed change Against Zerg specifically (comparison between the original Mine and the proposed one): The critical one-shot of banes in the current secondary area (from 1.25 to 1.5) is here again. That's perfect. For the rest, we'll have to see if the average amount of damage in the extra area (from 1.75 to 2.5) is adequate. Additionally, people shouldn't forget that Mines deal friendly fire, and Terran has to deal with that too. ForGG may not be pleased with that aspect. Against Protoss specifically (comparison between the original Mine and the proposed one): * Depending on the amount of shield left. ** Probes are one-shot. The positive points: - Mine drops and thus 1-1-1 builds would be a powerful early game threat anew. Those Mines would be even more deadly than the original ones for Protoss' mineral lines (they would kill Probes in one shot up to 2 radius, instead of 1.75 at the beginning of HotS), but of course Protoss have mastered the defence of such attacks since then and would deal with it better. That being said, sloppiness would be heavily punished and that's a good thing (risky builds without detection in time would also suffer more). By repercussion, Protoss might have to concede Cannons in their mineral lines and maybe some extra stalks if they can't rule out a Mine drop, thus toning down their builds a bit. That's a good point.
- 7g blink would die. You can't all-in without detection if a Mine reaching your mineral line threatens to kill 10 Probes every 40 seconds. Someone explained that recently in some lengthy post; can't remember where though. Oh well.
- Drops with Mines would be more powerful in midgame. There may be more incentive for Terran to use Mines against blink/colo (while they're currently mostly useless against that style).
- Mines might now be useful in lategame? Written with a big question mark, but they might have some use to hold the scenario of a quick Zealots/Archons remax.
The negative point: Protoss will be further pushed away from Templar openings, a style allowing better distinction and producing better games than the dreadful blink colo dual forge boredom. Another problem to consider is that Blizzard tends to propose a bigger change for their test maps compared with the actual values they aim for. For instance, they had initially announced a reduction of the Mine radius to 1.1 (!) to sweeten the pill. - Thor Attack priority changed to use AA weapon first
Because Thors are mostly core against Zerg, and the AA weapon is the preferred weapon when using Thors, we’d like to try this change.
Will be practical/useful in some situations and a pain in others, so we'll have to see. As for aberrant priorities, how about 25 Vikings in autopilot don't shoot at the first Observer they see while your bio evaporates to the 6 colos behind? - Time Warp duration decreased from 30 to 15
We’d like to try out this change for 3 reasons: Reduce the strength of various all-ins that combo with offensive Time Warps, reduce general Protoss main army strength, and hopefully increase micro opportunities against the spell.
Why not, but in most situations the trapped units will already be dead in the span of the first 15 seconds (no idea what kind of micro they expect against Time Warp other than right clicking trapped units out of the area), so in many scenarii this is mostly cosmetic as far as TvP goes. A reduced radius or a lesser slowing would be better tracks to explore. Implementing a cast point and a casting backswing animation to the MSC so it doesn't instantly cast its spells (except Recall given the use) would also be nice. That being said, there are situations in which this change would come in handy, and all in all it cannot hurt (in TvP) so OK. WM will now kill about 2 probes more with the additional range. Won't really change shit against zealot since 40 HPs isn't that much. Protoss are currently OP against terran and terran need better harassment options. Everything looks good on paper with this patch.
Imo terran doesnt need better harassment options as much as a lategame that isn't considerably worse than the Protoss. Their ideal maxed army of 20ghosts/20vikings/whatever else is too hard to obtain considering it isnt even that strong (by then the Protoss can easily afford Tempest/archon/colossus/templar so yeah).
On July 12 2014 21:44 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 21:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If 40 HPs isn't that much, please make storm 120 damage. This is stupid. And 2 more probes early game is important ! I think you're underestimating how deadly this combination of this buff + shields damage could be (then again, it's good to see it tested). Yeah you might have to learn to micro your units. Sad Zaelot.
No, the only thing that is going to happen is that PvT will become even more boring than it is today.
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Any Terrans streaming to show the new mine?
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Well, with that buff Protoss will be now forced to open defensive double forge colossi. I don't know if that's a bad thing since that's mostly already the case, but I'd have hoped for a more intelligent buff (buff mine for TvZ only, give T lategame some love : 150/150 ghosts could be tested for instance).
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This WM buff in its current form won't go through, although we are talking about the people who buffed the Oracle for no good reason. For its cost it will become way to effective and just be more of a gimmick unit than it already is. Blizzard should focus on late game Terran by buffing tier 3 units, they shouldn't focus on the early/mid game by buffing the WM.
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Blizz actually went ahead and decided to test this, despite it not fixing a damn thing with PvT?
When will they figure out the main problem with PvT is the T lategame, which doesn't exist.
As for the Time Warp "nerf" that doesn't do a thing either, TW is still stupid in PvT and PvP. They need to make a researchable tech, either at the Cyber Core or the Twilight Council, preferably Twilight so we have to choose between Blink and TW.
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I also really really disagree with maintaining the high extra bonus splash vs shield. If he wants to make Mines better late game vs toss, then why not simply make it part of the drilling claws upgrade which btw is kinda overpriced anyway (and yes an upgrade can do two things)
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WM was nerfed because it was too strong versus zerg cause the units makes huge damages for a ridiculous prize, and come way too soon. All pre-nerf TvZ was just : rally MMM on the zerg base, and he slowly dies.
But now WM are too nerfed and T struggle in the mid/lategame.
I think the best solution is to simply scale WM radius with Bio upgrades to fix the mid/late game Terran issues, without giving Terran too much power in the early game where Terrans are already strong enough in TvZ.
Ex (value are just examples)
0 upgrades : radius 1.25/1.5/1.75
+1 : 1.40/1.65/2.0
+2 : 1.55/1.80/2.25
+3 : 1.70/1.90/2.5
I think for TvP a +25 vs shield for tank worth to be test cause it will :
3 shot stalker instead of 4 shots.
5 Shot archons instead of 7 shot.
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Hmm, as I was reading this, something came to mind. What if instead they kept the 125+35 initial target, but removed the + vs shield damage to the splash and added a stun effect to units hit by the Missile.
This way it's not terrible vs big Health Protoss units. It would give Terrans time to Micro without outright dying to terrible, terrible damage and make the Mine a much more positional unit as a whole.
By Stun I don't mean Fungal root, I mean the unit literally sits there doing nothing.
Edit: It also makes the unit good together with Tanks, instead of overlapping with it.
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On July 12 2014 22:36 ejozl wrote:
Hmm, as I was reading this, something came to mind. What if instead they kept the 125+35 initial target, but removed the + vs shield damage to the splash and added a stun effect to units hit by the Missile.
This way it's not terrible vs big Health Protoss units. It would give Terrans time to Micro without outright dying to terrible, terrible damage and make the Mine a much more positional unit as a whole.
By Stun I don't mean Fungal root, I mean the unit literally sits there doing nothing.
Edit: It also makes the unit good together with Tanks, instead of overlapping with it.
A stun effect?? lol this isnt league of legends. plus timewarp is already considered a powerful spell as a slow effect, now a stun? nah
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On July 12 2014 17:29 User15937 wrote:
As if mines need to be buffed...It's already a reusable burrowed baneling and even one in a mineral line can end a game instantly.
if you lose to one burrowed mine then you are doing something very terribly wrong and would probably die to a single cloaked banshee anyway.
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Blizzard is so bad at balancing this game. Mines were nerfed for a reason - they were just too cost efficient. Now with proposed changes its gonna be same story again - rally MMM to victory. But I guess we should be happy that medivac change didnt make it, that one was the most stupid.
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On July 12 2014 21:44 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 21:39 Faust852 wrote:On July 12 2014 21:35 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 12 2014 21:30 Faust852 wrote:On July 12 2014 21:17 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The mine buff is so idiotic on its current form it hurts my soul. I remember the mine being a "stale and imbalanced unit" with 1.75 radius, so I don't understand how they can think this buff could be alright -I kinda guess they're testing it so that nobody cries when the buff is reduced, but anyway. And still nothing done about +shields damage, because those mines will definitely bury templars openings (not to mention mine drops which will become speed oracle 2.0). WMs was not imbalanced, it was "stale". Whatever "stale" means. The WM is still weaker than before and protoss did well in the past right? Pardon me but with the buff the widow mine would be far better than before in TvP thanks to the absurd +shields damage (one shots probes in 2 radius + damage in 2.5 radius). Original mine did 40 flat damage in a 1.75 radius (which was fine to me, when I say "stale and imbalanced" I only repeat what people used to say about it). On July 09 2014 09:08 TheDwf wrote:- Widow Mine splash radius increase
This will allow Terran to be stronger in the mid/late games in both matchups. We’ve also seen feedback that the Widow Mine splash radius increase doesn’t buff late game Terran, however we feel that this type of mid-game buff also carries over into a late game buff.
Splash radius changed from 1.25/1.5/1.75 to 1.5/2/2.5.
Good. Very good. Well, let's recap the different states of the Mine throughout HotS: 1 = Original Mine 2 = Post-nerf Mine after patch 2.0.12 3 = Mine after +shields buff 4 = Mine with the proposed change Against Zerg specifically (comparison between the original Mine and the proposed one): The critical one-shot of banes in the current secondary area (from 1.25 to 1.5) is here again. That's perfect. For the rest, we'll have to see if the average amount of damage in the extra area (from 1.75 to 2.5) is adequate. Additionally, people shouldn't forget that Mines deal friendly fire, and Terran has to deal with that too. ForGG may not be pleased with that aspect. Against Protoss specifically (comparison between the original Mine and the proposed one): * Depending on the amount of shield left. ** Probes are one-shot. The positive points: - Mine drops and thus 1-1-1 builds would be a powerful early game threat anew. Those Mines would be even more deadly than the original ones for Protoss' mineral lines (they would kill Probes in one shot up to 2 radius, instead of 1.75 at the beginning of HotS), but of course Protoss have mastered the defence of such attacks since then and would deal with it better. That being said, sloppiness would be heavily punished and that's a good thing (risky builds without detection in time would also suffer more). By repercussion, Protoss might have to concede Cannons in their mineral lines and maybe some extra stalks if they can't rule out a Mine drop, thus toning down their builds a bit. That's a good point.
- 7g blink would die. You can't all-in without detection if a Mine reaching your mineral line threatens to kill 10 Probes every 40 seconds. Someone explained that recently in some lengthy post; can't remember where though. Oh well.
- Drops with Mines would be more powerful in midgame. There may be more incentive for Terran to use Mines against blink/colo (while they're currently mostly useless against that style).
- Mines might now be useful in lategame? Written with a big question mark, but they might have some use to hold the scenario of a quick Zealots/Archons remax.
The negative point: Protoss will be further pushed away from Templar openings, a style allowing better distinction and producing better games than the dreadful blink colo dual forge boredom. Another problem to consider is that Blizzard tends to propose a bigger change for their test maps compared with the actual values they aim for. For instance, they had initially announced a reduction of the Mine radius to 1.1 (!) to sweeten the pill. - Thor Attack priority changed to use AA weapon first
Because Thors are mostly core against Zerg, and the AA weapon is the preferred weapon when using Thors, we’d like to try this change.
Will be practical/useful in some situations and a pain in others, so we'll have to see. As for aberrant priorities, how about 25 Vikings in autopilot don't shoot at the first Observer they see while your bio evaporates to the 6 colos behind? - Time Warp duration decreased from 30 to 15
We’d like to try out this change for 3 reasons: Reduce the strength of various all-ins that combo with offensive Time Warps, reduce general Protoss main army strength, and hopefully increase micro opportunities against the spell.
Why not, but in most situations the trapped units will already be dead in the span of the first 15 seconds (no idea what kind of micro they expect against Time Warp other than right clicking trapped units out of the area), so in many scenarii this is mostly cosmetic as far as TvP goes. A reduced radius or a lesser slowing would be better tracks to explore. Implementing a cast point and a casting backswing animation to the MSC so it doesn't instantly cast its spells (except Recall given the use) would also be nice. That being said, there are situations in which this change would come in handy, and all in all it cannot hurt (in TvP) so OK. WM will now kill about 2 probes more with the additional range. Won't really change shit against zealot since 40 HPs isn't that much. Protoss are currently OP against terran and terran need better harassment options. Everything looks good on paper with this patch. Imo terran doesnt need better harassment options as much as a lategame that isn't considerably worse than the Protoss. Their ideal maxed army of 20ghosts/20vikings/whatever else is too hard to obtain considering it isnt even that strong (by then the Protoss can easily afford Tempest/archon/colossus/templar so yeah). Show nested quote +On July 12 2014 21:44 Faust852 wrote:On July 12 2014 21:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If 40 HPs isn't that much, please make storm 120 damage. This is stupid. And 2 more probes early game is important ! I think you're underestimating how deadly this combination of this buff + shields damage could be (then again, it's good to see it tested). Yeah you might have to learn to micro your units. Sad Zaelot. No, the only thing that is going to happen is that PvT will become even more boring than it is today.
Only for the protoss maybe. I'd enjoy that very much.
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EPT
